Christian unschooler, Pornography, discipline, birth!!
kenyonbook
I've been deleting alot of postings since Ned's posts have been
blocked...I'm sorry, but I was truly disappointed that someone so
interesting was prevented from posting. That said, I just started
reading again, and was pleasantly surprised to find some very
interesting, albeit controversial, topics bouncing around, sans
Ned! I am a Christian unschooler, and the mother of 7. Like the
poster, H., I believe in monitoring what my children read, watch, or
do, even though I trust them. Why? Because I think that should be a
part of parenting. I, too, am a little shocked at the attitude that
children can decide what is good or bad for themselves. At a
certain age, yes, and I think that age varies with each child, but
in general, I think the lure of pornography is very strong and very
dangerous (even for many adult men! It has ruined many a marriage)
I have a 22-year-old son who always jokes that I "ruined" dirty
magazines for him by nursing his siblings so long and openly. He
says if he looked at a woman in a magazine he would probably just
imagine them nursing an infant and it would ruin the whole
thing. :o) We had talks with him and all our children know we
think Playboy and other such magazines are a sinful portrayal of
both women and sex. (yes, we do still believe in sin at our house)
We wouldn't have any Karma Sutra books or games in our house either,
and we have raised our children to believe sex outside of marriage
is wrong too. Luckily, my oldest son has found a wonderful girl who
believes that too. However, they also know that we believe humans
make mistakes and they could come to us if they ever got into
trouble in any way. My daughter was a virgin when she got married a
year ago, and is proud of that. I have a 15-year-old son who stays
up until 11:00 and watches "Friends" (which we have talked about-
those characters sleep around pretty freely, we had to talk about
that) As a family, we often watch war movies that are rated "R" but
we limit our other video-viewing to rated "G" or maybe "PG" (which
limits us greatly, but we have better things to do than watch
television anyway) I don't know who brought it up awhile back about
music and video viewing, but I agree that what we listen to or watch
has a strong influence in what we become. I would add reading to
that, too. My kids read voraciously but there are books they end up
setting aside because of the content, just as I do. We even
hesitated on the Harry Potter books for a very long time because I
didn't want to "invite Satan into my home" (as my mother put it) I
let the older children read it and they weren't impressed and didn't
jump on the Harry Potter bandwagon like they probably would have if
they had been in school. I mentioned once we are fairly isolated,
and we like it that way. That also means my children are not really
exposed to peer pressure until they are old enough to deal with it
really well. This is apparent if you are around my children for
any length of time. They don't care what is "in", they don't feel
the need to dress a certain way, they read what they want, unlike
their schooled cousins who read what everyone else is reading, wear
what everyone else is wearing and listen to whatever everyone else
is listening to. They don't get caught up in the latest fads,
either. They don't know that a 16-year-old isn't supposed to want
to play with his younger siblings, or if they do know that, they
don't care. Anyway, I am getting off-topic, my basic point is that
we do monitor what they watch, read, listen to, in a fairly loose
and flexible way. (in other words, they can convince us to let them
read or watch something if they can point out or find some merit in
it)
I missed the references to birth and discipline but I sure hope no
one on this list follows the Ferber or whats his name (the couple
who strongly encourages letting babies cry it out and now I can't
remember their names)method of controlling their babies. I can't
imagine an unschooler being so rigid. I guess with nursing on
demand, going with the flow, family-bedding type of parents we are,
we naturally turned towards unschooling.
In regards to birth, I've had it all- laboring in 1980 lying flat on
my back hooked up to machines, laboring in 1987 walking the hospital
corridors until 10 cm. dilated and pushing a baby out in two pushes,
an emergency c-section, a V-Bac.... I would have loved a home
birth. "Mothering" magazine has been one of my most helpful
resources in pregnancy and beyond. Dr. William Sears' books have
also been wonderful. He is a Christian attachment-parenting
advocate.
I've rambled long enough, feeling very vocal today.... I think the
pornography issue got my blood going again. I have 3 sons and this
is an area I am always sensitive to. I never want any of them to
look at females in that way. Of course, our family's religious
principles are our guiding force in these decisions. But, religion
aside, I would have to say I would not want my son to have a friend
that is freely exposed to pornography in his own home. (my oldest
son DID, and chose to end that friendship himself, after the
prominent lawyer's son pulled an X-rated video out of their cabinet
and popped it into the VCR one day)
Mary, In IA
blocked...I'm sorry, but I was truly disappointed that someone so
interesting was prevented from posting. That said, I just started
reading again, and was pleasantly surprised to find some very
interesting, albeit controversial, topics bouncing around, sans
Ned! I am a Christian unschooler, and the mother of 7. Like the
poster, H., I believe in monitoring what my children read, watch, or
do, even though I trust them. Why? Because I think that should be a
part of parenting. I, too, am a little shocked at the attitude that
children can decide what is good or bad for themselves. At a
certain age, yes, and I think that age varies with each child, but
in general, I think the lure of pornography is very strong and very
dangerous (even for many adult men! It has ruined many a marriage)
I have a 22-year-old son who always jokes that I "ruined" dirty
magazines for him by nursing his siblings so long and openly. He
says if he looked at a woman in a magazine he would probably just
imagine them nursing an infant and it would ruin the whole
thing. :o) We had talks with him and all our children know we
think Playboy and other such magazines are a sinful portrayal of
both women and sex. (yes, we do still believe in sin at our house)
We wouldn't have any Karma Sutra books or games in our house either,
and we have raised our children to believe sex outside of marriage
is wrong too. Luckily, my oldest son has found a wonderful girl who
believes that too. However, they also know that we believe humans
make mistakes and they could come to us if they ever got into
trouble in any way. My daughter was a virgin when she got married a
year ago, and is proud of that. I have a 15-year-old son who stays
up until 11:00 and watches "Friends" (which we have talked about-
those characters sleep around pretty freely, we had to talk about
that) As a family, we often watch war movies that are rated "R" but
we limit our other video-viewing to rated "G" or maybe "PG" (which
limits us greatly, but we have better things to do than watch
television anyway) I don't know who brought it up awhile back about
music and video viewing, but I agree that what we listen to or watch
has a strong influence in what we become. I would add reading to
that, too. My kids read voraciously but there are books they end up
setting aside because of the content, just as I do. We even
hesitated on the Harry Potter books for a very long time because I
didn't want to "invite Satan into my home" (as my mother put it) I
let the older children read it and they weren't impressed and didn't
jump on the Harry Potter bandwagon like they probably would have if
they had been in school. I mentioned once we are fairly isolated,
and we like it that way. That also means my children are not really
exposed to peer pressure until they are old enough to deal with it
really well. This is apparent if you are around my children for
any length of time. They don't care what is "in", they don't feel
the need to dress a certain way, they read what they want, unlike
their schooled cousins who read what everyone else is reading, wear
what everyone else is wearing and listen to whatever everyone else
is listening to. They don't get caught up in the latest fads,
either. They don't know that a 16-year-old isn't supposed to want
to play with his younger siblings, or if they do know that, they
don't care. Anyway, I am getting off-topic, my basic point is that
we do monitor what they watch, read, listen to, in a fairly loose
and flexible way. (in other words, they can convince us to let them
read or watch something if they can point out or find some merit in
it)
I missed the references to birth and discipline but I sure hope no
one on this list follows the Ferber or whats his name (the couple
who strongly encourages letting babies cry it out and now I can't
remember their names)method of controlling their babies. I can't
imagine an unschooler being so rigid. I guess with nursing on
demand, going with the flow, family-bedding type of parents we are,
we naturally turned towards unschooling.
In regards to birth, I've had it all- laboring in 1980 lying flat on
my back hooked up to machines, laboring in 1987 walking the hospital
corridors until 10 cm. dilated and pushing a baby out in two pushes,
an emergency c-section, a V-Bac.... I would have loved a home
birth. "Mothering" magazine has been one of my most helpful
resources in pregnancy and beyond. Dr. William Sears' books have
also been wonderful. He is a Christian attachment-parenting
advocate.
I've rambled long enough, feeling very vocal today.... I think the
pornography issue got my blood going again. I have 3 sons and this
is an area I am always sensitive to. I never want any of them to
look at females in that way. Of course, our family's religious
principles are our guiding force in these decisions. But, religion
aside, I would have to say I would not want my son to have a friend
that is freely exposed to pornography in his own home. (my oldest
son DID, and chose to end that friendship himself, after the
prominent lawyer's son pulled an X-rated video out of their cabinet
and popped it into the VCR one day)
Mary, In IA
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/8/02 8:57:39 AM, kenyonbook@... writes:
<< I would have to say I would not want my son to have a friend
that is freely exposed to pornography in his own home. >>
No one on this list as advocated "freely exposing to pornography." That was
the straw man set up by someone trying to show the evil end that saying yes
to our children more than we say no will "inevitably" lead them to.
Sandra
<< I would have to say I would not want my son to have a friend
that is freely exposed to pornography in his own home. >>
No one on this list as advocated "freely exposing to pornography." That was
the straw man set up by someone trying to show the evil end that saying yes
to our children more than we say no will "inevitably" lead them to.
Sandra
kayb85
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
getting into it, what would you do?
Sheila
>That was
> In a message dated 9/8/02 8:57:39 AM, kenyonbook@y... writes:
>
> << I would have to say I would not want my son to have a friend
> that is freely exposed to pornography in his own home. >>
>
> No one on this list as advocated "freely exposing to pornography."
> the straw man set up by someone trying to show the evil end thatsaying yes
> to our children more than we say no will "inevitably" lead them to.But IF he wanted to watch/read porgnography and really started
>
> Sandra
getting into it, what would you do?
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/8/02 9:47:36 AM, sheran@... writes:
<< But IF he wanted to watch/read porgnography and really started
getting into it, what would you do? >>
I would worry about what happened to all the friends and activities which
were keeping him happily busy all week for so many years, but IF he decided
he'd rather read porn (he's not old enough to rent it and we don't have any
cable-porn) I would figure it was something he needed to explore and that he
would survive.
He has SO many healthy relationships with people of both sexes, and adults,
married and unmarried, that it's not going to be his first or only
introduction to romance or sex (as it seems to be for some people).
Asking that question about Kirby is like asking what would I do if he DID buy
a gun and join a street gang. He isn't desperate for friends or input.
But having said that, I don't think viewing pornography becomes an addiction
for everyone who sees it, and I don't think it's akin to getting a gun and
terrorizing the neighborhood.
I had a friend who was reading EVERY harlequin romance, until they started
publishing faster than she could read. It was cutting into her actual
lovelife (she read them in bed to go to sleep, and her husband would fall
asleep before she did sometimes). She said she'd like to stop, or wished
they would stop making them. That was an addiction. It affected her
expectations of love and romance. It didn't kill her or maim her. She's
still married, they have two teenaged boys, and I bet those boys will never
become porn fiends, although I know their uncle and HE was a porn fiend when
the videos were $80 apiece and he bought them, long ago. AND he wrote his
own. AND he had a sex change operation. So... Their mom read Harlequin
romances. Their paternal uncle is now an aunt. Their dad is None of the
Above, a boyscout leader, a calmly straight guy. So what are their risk
factors? Genetics? Their lives are safe, happy, busy and joyful. Porn
can't possibly find its way into the top ten in their lives.
(I don't think they're churchgoers, but dad was raised UU and the mom Mormon,
from SLC; genetic Mormon.)
Sandra
<< But IF he wanted to watch/read porgnography and really started
getting into it, what would you do? >>
I would worry about what happened to all the friends and activities which
were keeping him happily busy all week for so many years, but IF he decided
he'd rather read porn (he's not old enough to rent it and we don't have any
cable-porn) I would figure it was something he needed to explore and that he
would survive.
He has SO many healthy relationships with people of both sexes, and adults,
married and unmarried, that it's not going to be his first or only
introduction to romance or sex (as it seems to be for some people).
Asking that question about Kirby is like asking what would I do if he DID buy
a gun and join a street gang. He isn't desperate for friends or input.
But having said that, I don't think viewing pornography becomes an addiction
for everyone who sees it, and I don't think it's akin to getting a gun and
terrorizing the neighborhood.
I had a friend who was reading EVERY harlequin romance, until they started
publishing faster than she could read. It was cutting into her actual
lovelife (she read them in bed to go to sleep, and her husband would fall
asleep before she did sometimes). She said she'd like to stop, or wished
they would stop making them. That was an addiction. It affected her
expectations of love and romance. It didn't kill her or maim her. She's
still married, they have two teenaged boys, and I bet those boys will never
become porn fiends, although I know their uncle and HE was a porn fiend when
the videos were $80 apiece and he bought them, long ago. AND he wrote his
own. AND he had a sex change operation. So... Their mom read Harlequin
romances. Their paternal uncle is now an aunt. Their dad is None of the
Above, a boyscout leader, a calmly straight guy. So what are their risk
factors? Genetics? Their lives are safe, happy, busy and joyful. Porn
can't possibly find its way into the top ten in their lives.
(I don't think they're churchgoers, but dad was raised UU and the mom Mormon,
from SLC; genetic Mormon.)
Sandra
Shyrley
On 8 Sep 02, at 15:46, kayb85 wrote:
over our children.
I feel uncomfortable watching people control their children because
they are *theirs*. If a friend was doing something you didn't approve
of you would either discuss it with them and agree to differ or
wouldn't interfere. Children are people too and are deserving of the
same respect for what they think and do.
I also think an interest in pornography dring the teenage years is
natural. I may not like it and have tried to bring my sons up to be
open about women and respect all humans but should one day I
find a porno mag in their room I wouldn't try to shame them or
make them feel dirty or guilty.
My mother was cleaning my 17 yo brother's room one day and
found a stack of mags under his bed. She cleaned the room and
neatly stacked them on his pillow but never ever said a word. If she
had yelled at him and treated him like he was 5 I imagine their
relationship wouldn't be astrustign and open as it is now he is 30.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:This leads to a debate about how much 'control' we should have
> >
> > In a message dated 9/8/02 8:57:39 AM, kenyonbook@y... writes:
> >
> > << I would have to say I would not want my son to have a friend that
> > is freely exposed to pornography in his own home. >>
> >
> > No one on this list as advocated "freely exposing to pornography."
> That was
> > the straw man set up by someone trying to show the evil end that
> saying yes
> > to our children more than we say no will "inevitably" lead them to.
> >
> > Sandra
>
> But IF he wanted to watch/read porgnography and really started
> getting into it, what would you do?
> Sheila
>
>
over our children.
I feel uncomfortable watching people control their children because
they are *theirs*. If a friend was doing something you didn't approve
of you would either discuss it with them and agree to differ or
wouldn't interfere. Children are people too and are deserving of the
same respect for what they think and do.
I also think an interest in pornography dring the teenage years is
natural. I may not like it and have tried to bring my sons up to be
open about women and respect all humans but should one day I
find a porno mag in their room I wouldn't try to shame them or
make them feel dirty or guilty.
My mother was cleaning my 17 yo brother's room one day and
found a stack of mags under his bed. She cleaned the room and
neatly stacked them on his pillow but never ever said a word. If she
had yelled at him and treated him like he was 5 I imagine their
relationship wouldn't be astrustign and open as it is now he is 30.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
Shyrley
On 8 Sep 02, at 15:46, kayb85 wrote:
over our children.
I feel uncomfortable watching people control their children because
they are *theirs*. If a friend was doing something you didn't approve
of you would either discuss it with them and agree to differ or
wouldn't interfere. Children are people too and are deserving of the
same respect for what they think and do.
I also think an interest in pornography dring the teenage years is
natural. I may not like it and have tried to bring my sons up to be
open about women and respect all humans but should one day I
find a porno mag in their room I wouldn't try to shame them or
make them feel dirty or guilty.
My mother was cleaning my 17 yo brother's room one day and
found a stack of mags under his bed. She cleaned the room and
neatly stacked them on his pillow but never ever said a word. If she
had yelled at him and treated him like he was 5 I imagine their
relationship wouldn't be astrustign and open as it is now he is 30.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:This leads to a debate about how much 'control' we should have
> >
> > In a message dated 9/8/02 8:57:39 AM, kenyonbook@y... writes:
> >
> > << I would have to say I would not want my son to have a friend that
> > is freely exposed to pornography in his own home. >>
> >
> > No one on this list as advocated "freely exposing to pornography."
> That was
> > the straw man set up by someone trying to show the evil end that
> saying yes
> > to our children more than we say no will "inevitably" lead them to.
> >
> > Sandra
>
> But IF he wanted to watch/read porgnography and really started
> getting into it, what would you do?
> Sheila
>
>
over our children.
I feel uncomfortable watching people control their children because
they are *theirs*. If a friend was doing something you didn't approve
of you would either discuss it with them and agree to differ or
wouldn't interfere. Children are people too and are deserving of the
same respect for what they think and do.
I also think an interest in pornography dring the teenage years is
natural. I may not like it and have tried to bring my sons up to be
open about women and respect all humans but should one day I
find a porno mag in their room I wouldn't try to shame them or
make them feel dirty or guilty.
My mother was cleaning my 17 yo brother's room one day and
found a stack of mags under his bed. She cleaned the room and
neatly stacked them on his pillow but never ever said a word. If she
had yelled at him and treated him like he was 5 I imagine their
relationship wouldn't be astrustign and open as it is now he is 30.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
Kelli Traaseth
Shyrley, You have a cool Mom! If it were my Mom she would have thrown them away and never said anything to him. Nothing like denial and not dealing with anything! I grew up in a loving environment too, they thought, but.... my parents were soooo uptight about sex that the whole porn thing was a total nothing to me. I had no idea what exactly was in those movies!
This kind of upbringing(for me) developed into shame for sexual feelings and all sorts of other uncertain feelings when it came to relationships. I think if my parents would have discussed things with me, I may have had a clue and not put sex on the taboo list. Along with drinking and other things.
Sandra, I commend you for your honesty and people delving into your personal life. I don't quite understand some accusations of not being involved in our children's lives just because we are trusting them. Do we always have to expect the worse from our children? hmmmmm... I feel this goes with religious convictions sometimes! IMO
It seems that if we make something a taboo or off limits or a topic of avoidance its going to be a huge magnet for our children. I feel this way about porn, drinking, drugs,,,,staying up late, eating snacks...the list goes on. I'm sure this has been discussed a ton on this list. We just need to talk with our children and let them talk about how they are feeling.
Thank you Sandra, Ren,Mary, Debs, Shyrley and others who have taught me so much on just being an accepting and loving parent and hopefully I can do a better job with my children than mine did with me! They might not have all the hangups that I had to fight my way through.
Kelli, who is going to shut up now for a while.
Shyrley wrote:On 8 Sep 02, at 15:46, kayb85 wrote:
over our children.
I feel uncomfortable watching people control their children because
they are *theirs*. If a friend was doing something you didn't approve
of you would either discuss it with them and agree to differ or
wouldn't interfere. Children are people too and are deserving of the
same respect for what they think and do.
I also think an interest in pornography dring the teenage years is
natural. I may not like it and have tried to bring my sons up to be
open about women and respect all humans but should one day I
find a porno mag in their room I wouldn't try to shame them or
make them feel dirty or guilty.
My mother was cleaning my 17 yo brother's room one day and
found a stack of mags under his bed. She cleaned the room and
neatly stacked them on his pillow but never ever said a word. If she
had yelled at him and treated him like he was 5 I imagine their
relationship wouldn't be astrustign and open as it is now he is 30.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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This kind of upbringing(for me) developed into shame for sexual feelings and all sorts of other uncertain feelings when it came to relationships. I think if my parents would have discussed things with me, I may have had a clue and not put sex on the taboo list. Along with drinking and other things.
Sandra, I commend you for your honesty and people delving into your personal life. I don't quite understand some accusations of not being involved in our children's lives just because we are trusting them. Do we always have to expect the worse from our children? hmmmmm... I feel this goes with religious convictions sometimes! IMO
It seems that if we make something a taboo or off limits or a topic of avoidance its going to be a huge magnet for our children. I feel this way about porn, drinking, drugs,,,,staying up late, eating snacks...the list goes on. I'm sure this has been discussed a ton on this list. We just need to talk with our children and let them talk about how they are feeling.
Thank you Sandra, Ren,Mary, Debs, Shyrley and others who have taught me so much on just being an accepting and loving parent and hopefully I can do a better job with my children than mine did with me! They might not have all the hangups that I had to fight my way through.
Kelli, who is going to shut up now for a while.
Shyrley wrote:On 8 Sep 02, at 15:46, kayb85 wrote:
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:This leads to a debate about how much 'control' we should have
> >
> > In a message dated 9/8/02 8:57:39 AM, kenyonbook@y... writes:
> >
> > << I would have to say I would not want my son to have a friend that
> > is freely exposed to pornography in his own home. >>
> >
> > No one on this list as advocated "freely exposing to pornography."
> That was
> > the straw man set up by someone trying to show the evil end that
> saying yes
> > to our children more than we say no will "inevitably" lead them to.
> >
> > Sandra
>
> But IF he wanted to watch/read porgnography and really started
> getting into it, what would you do?
> Sheila
>
>
over our children.
I feel uncomfortable watching people control their children because
they are *theirs*. If a friend was doing something you didn't approve
of you would either discuss it with them and agree to differ or
wouldn't interfere. Children are people too and are deserving of the
same respect for what they think and do.
I also think an interest in pornography dring the teenage years is
natural. I may not like it and have tried to bring my sons up to be
open about women and respect all humans but should one day I
find a porno mag in their room I wouldn't try to shame them or
make them feel dirty or guilty.
My mother was cleaning my 17 yo brother's room one day and
found a stack of mags under his bed. She cleaned the room and
neatly stacked them on his pillow but never ever said a word. If she
had yelled at him and treated him like he was 5 I imagine their
relationship wouldn't be astrustign and open as it is now he is 30.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]