Another Intro, while we're at it...
Helen Colbeck
Hi there, I just joined recently, and have been lurking, so I suppose I
ought to speak up...
I am Helen, dw to Marc, and Mom to Denise, who just turned five, and Evelyn,
who just turned one. We decided to homeschool this past spring, when I
pulled my eldest out of her (so-called) Montessori school, and our whole
family (well, apart from Evelyn, I suppose) is pretty excited about it.
We live in Barrie, Ontario, and if there are any unschoolers in our area,
please speak up!! We need some buddies - all my daughter's friends are back
to school, and although she doesn't want to join their ranks, she is feeling
a bit lonely.
When we decided to homeschool, we started casting about, looking for a
'plan', and unschooling really does seem to be it. I am curious about how
rigid the definition of 'unschooling' is? The things that appeal to me
about it (read: the ideas I have selected to adopt :-)) are the lack of an
organized curriculum, or timeline for knowledge/skill acquisition, and the
fact that my daughters are the ones to guide and lead their own development.
It is easy for people to see how this is right for the little one (some how
she has learned to walk without any lessons or 'equipment' LOL), but squirm
when I talk about that same idea with my older daughter.
Fortunately, my dh is right on board with the unschooling, and really,
really REALLY happy about the homeschooling in general. Being new to the
idea, I am still exploring the ins and outs of unschooling myself, and if he
were unsupportive, I can't imagine how difficult that would be. He has
come a looooong way, though, from the guy who was staunchly against me
having our first at home (she was born there anyway, as was my second, by
which time he was a total convert), and who didn't think babies belonged in
their parents bed (with #2 we didn't even bother with the crib, just bought
the king-sized bed). I guess if I can guide him through those paradigm
shifts (and others, like vaxing and circumcision), I could have done the
same with this, but I am soooo grateful I don't have to!
There are some things, however, that we do that I think may 'disqualify' us.
I have set up a room here in our house, which has lots of math
manipulatives, language materials, geography stuff - all kinds of things -
set out on shelves for her. My husband started calling it 'the classroom'
and that name has stuck. It won't be a place for 'classes' in any sense of
the word - I set it up to make all of those things accessible to her, so she
could explore them, and ask for help and clarification when she wants it. I
probably will offer 'lessons' at times, but she will never have to
participate against her will.
Just to clarify, I am trained as a Montessori teacher, and it has obviously
influenced my approach. If there was decent Montessori school in my town,
I probably would have left her in there, but I am now so excited by the
whole idea of her being home that even if one moved in tomorrow, I would
never send her! There is a definite influence there, though, and again, I
wonder if that 'disqualifies' me as an unschooler.
I hope I will be welcome here, as I have been greatly enjoying your
discussions. You sound like a pretty cool bunch. Are there no Christian
unschoolers on the list though? There have been some comments recently that
surprised me, as they would have caused some other lists I have been on to
erupt into flames! For the record, I am UU and my dh is a Zen Buddhist.
Oh, and I have also been following the Yes vs. No threads. I have seen this
same thread pop up on other lists, and it always fascinates me. I find
myself very drawn to the idea of it, but it just never works for me. I do
always seek the 'yes', but sometimes, for me, the answer is just no. This
applies to my dh, my dd, my mom - everybody in my life. Sometimes the
answer is just no. I do have questions for those of you here who never say
no to your kids, as I'd like to explore the idea more, but I think that's
for another time.
Thanks to those of you who made it ALL the way to the end!
H.
ought to speak up...
I am Helen, dw to Marc, and Mom to Denise, who just turned five, and Evelyn,
who just turned one. We decided to homeschool this past spring, when I
pulled my eldest out of her (so-called) Montessori school, and our whole
family (well, apart from Evelyn, I suppose) is pretty excited about it.
We live in Barrie, Ontario, and if there are any unschoolers in our area,
please speak up!! We need some buddies - all my daughter's friends are back
to school, and although she doesn't want to join their ranks, she is feeling
a bit lonely.
When we decided to homeschool, we started casting about, looking for a
'plan', and unschooling really does seem to be it. I am curious about how
rigid the definition of 'unschooling' is? The things that appeal to me
about it (read: the ideas I have selected to adopt :-)) are the lack of an
organized curriculum, or timeline for knowledge/skill acquisition, and the
fact that my daughters are the ones to guide and lead their own development.
It is easy for people to see how this is right for the little one (some how
she has learned to walk without any lessons or 'equipment' LOL), but squirm
when I talk about that same idea with my older daughter.
Fortunately, my dh is right on board with the unschooling, and really,
really REALLY happy about the homeschooling in general. Being new to the
idea, I am still exploring the ins and outs of unschooling myself, and if he
were unsupportive, I can't imagine how difficult that would be. He has
come a looooong way, though, from the guy who was staunchly against me
having our first at home (she was born there anyway, as was my second, by
which time he was a total convert), and who didn't think babies belonged in
their parents bed (with #2 we didn't even bother with the crib, just bought
the king-sized bed). I guess if I can guide him through those paradigm
shifts (and others, like vaxing and circumcision), I could have done the
same with this, but I am soooo grateful I don't have to!
There are some things, however, that we do that I think may 'disqualify' us.
I have set up a room here in our house, which has lots of math
manipulatives, language materials, geography stuff - all kinds of things -
set out on shelves for her. My husband started calling it 'the classroom'
and that name has stuck. It won't be a place for 'classes' in any sense of
the word - I set it up to make all of those things accessible to her, so she
could explore them, and ask for help and clarification when she wants it. I
probably will offer 'lessons' at times, but she will never have to
participate against her will.
Just to clarify, I am trained as a Montessori teacher, and it has obviously
influenced my approach. If there was decent Montessori school in my town,
I probably would have left her in there, but I am now so excited by the
whole idea of her being home that even if one moved in tomorrow, I would
never send her! There is a definite influence there, though, and again, I
wonder if that 'disqualifies' me as an unschooler.
I hope I will be welcome here, as I have been greatly enjoying your
discussions. You sound like a pretty cool bunch. Are there no Christian
unschoolers on the list though? There have been some comments recently that
surprised me, as they would have caused some other lists I have been on to
erupt into flames! For the record, I am UU and my dh is a Zen Buddhist.
Oh, and I have also been following the Yes vs. No threads. I have seen this
same thread pop up on other lists, and it always fascinates me. I find
myself very drawn to the idea of it, but it just never works for me. I do
always seek the 'yes', but sometimes, for me, the answer is just no. This
applies to my dh, my dd, my mom - everybody in my life. Sometimes the
answer is just no. I do have questions for those of you here who never say
no to your kids, as I'd like to explore the idea more, but I think that's
for another time.
Thanks to those of you who made it ALL the way to the end!
H.
Mary Bianco
>There are some things, however, that we do that I think may 'disqualify'Hi Helen,
>us.
Well I'll just say what my idea of unschooling is and it sounds pretty much
like what you do. I don't see anything wrong in setting up a room full of
whatever will interest the kids. I sometimes wish I had a room to do that.
My stuff is all over the house!!!!!
I prefer to see unschooling as child led. For us that means whatever they
want to do. I once heard another unschooler discussing learning with one of
her children. The child wasn't coming up with any ideas for the following
day and the mother said "Well, we have to learn something!"
To me, that wasn't unschooling. The child would have learned something even
if she just played all day long. That seemed forced to me.
My one daughter happens to love worksheets. So she does them. I make sure
she always has them available and she does them when she wants to. I never
suggest that it's time to do paper work or anything like that. And she can
do them or not do them or quit them whenever she wants.
Some children seem to like more structure than others and if that's what the
child wants, then I think that's okay too. As long as one isn't strongly
suggesting, which I see some unschoolers do, or mapping out wht the child
"needs" to learn.
Mary B
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kayb85
> My one daughter happens to love worksheets. So she does them. Imake sure
> she always has them available and she does them when she wants to.My 9 year old has been doing kindergarten workbooks. She sets her
beanie babies all around her, writes down all of their names on
pieces of paper and puts checkmarks by their names (I think for
answering her questions? lol) They each take a turn answering a
question for her and if they don't understand something, she explains
it to them! She's really cute when she does that.
Sheila
Mary Bianco
>From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>Oh I got a great visual on that one. That's just too cute!!!
>My 9 year old has been doing kindergarten workbooks. She sets her
>beanie babies all around her, writes down all of their names on
>pieces of paper and puts checkmarks by their names (I think for
>answering her questions? lol) They each take a turn answering a
>question for her and if they don't understand something, she explains
>it to them! She's really cute when she does that.
>Sheila
Mary B
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Fetteroll
on 9/6/02 7:43 AM, Helen Colbeck at the_colbecks@... wrote:
what you do. A workbook dipped into because a child thinks it's fun like a
puzzle book is a whole different thing than a workbook that's in the house
because mom is concerned the child won't learn the topic without the
workbook.
this stuff that's designed for learning? Do you feel that if you didn't have
product X that learning skill/knowledge Y would be really hard or impossible
for her to acquire through life?
If you had to choose between the educational stuff and her toys which would
you choose and how comfortable educationwise would you be with that
decision?
I'm not trying to discourage your room! :-) But trying to get across the
idea that a room full of learning stuff can feel oh so very comforting when
"educational stuff" is really a minor player in the process.
even tougher time breaking out of the habit of thinking certain activities
lead to a specific result and a specific result requires specific
activities.
Breaking out of the mode of thinking is hard enough for those who haven't
been trained to think like that! ;-) Society does a good job of brainwashing
us on how children learn!
to the fundamentalist Christians who have flocked to homeschooling and
created sort of a closed community for themselves. (They refer to themselves
as Christians, as in "I am, and you're not.") The closed community would be
no skin off anyone's nose if they weren't also politically active and acted
as though they *were* Homeschooling itself ;-)
In short, the term "Christian" among homeschoolers says a whole lot more
than the dictionary definition.
need from the world. :-) We adults tend to see only the advantages of being
a kid -- oodles of time free of responsibilty and obligations -- but miss
the total powerlessness and dependence.
The Yes/No discussion isn't meant to imply that parents should become
doormats for their children but a recognition that children are fellow human
beings who need someone to go to bat for them to help them get what the
adults take for granted.
Joyce
> I am curious about howDepends! :-) Why you or your daughter do something is more important than
> rigid the definition of 'unschooling' is?
what you do. A workbook dipped into because a child thinks it's fun like a
puzzle book is a whole different thing than a workbook that's in the house
because mom is concerned the child won't learn the topic without the
workbook.
> I have set up a room here in our house, which has lots of mathWould you feel that her education would not be as good if you didn't have
> manipulatives, language materials, geography stuff - all kinds of things -
> set out on shelves for her.
this stuff that's designed for learning? Do you feel that if you didn't have
product X that learning skill/knowledge Y would be really hard or impossible
for her to acquire through life?
If you had to choose between the educational stuff and her toys which would
you choose and how comfortable educationwise would you be with that
decision?
I'm not trying to discourage your room! :-) But trying to get across the
idea that a room full of learning stuff can feel oh so very comforting when
"educational stuff" is really a minor player in the process.
> There is a definite influence there, though, and again, II think teachers -- maybe especially Montessori teachers? -- will have an
> wonder if that 'disqualifies' me as an unschooler.
even tougher time breaking out of the habit of thinking certain activities
lead to a specific result and a specific result requires specific
activities.
Breaking out of the mode of thinking is hard enough for those who haven't
been trained to think like that! ;-) Society does a good job of brainwashing
us on how children learn!
> Are there no ChristianWhen people use Christian in reference to homeschooling generally it refers
> unschoolers on the list though?
to the fundamentalist Christians who have flocked to homeschooling and
created sort of a closed community for themselves. (They refer to themselves
as Christians, as in "I am, and you're not.") The closed community would be
no skin off anyone's nose if they weren't also politically active and acted
as though they *were* Homeschooling itself ;-)
In short, the term "Christian" among homeschoolers says a whole lot more
than the dictionary definition.
> I am UUMe too :-)
> I doSuch as?
> always seek the 'yes', but sometimes, for me, the answer is just no.
> ThisBut your dh and your mom don't need you as an advocate in getting what they
> applies to my dh, my dd, my mom - everybody in my life. Sometimes the
> answer is just no.
need from the world. :-) We adults tend to see only the advantages of being
a kid -- oodles of time free of responsibilty and obligations -- but miss
the total powerlessness and dependence.
The Yes/No discussion isn't meant to imply that parents should become
doormats for their children but a recognition that children are fellow human
beings who need someone to go to bat for them to help them get what the
adults take for granted.
Joyce
Robyn Coburn
Feeling whimsical, I started thinking about the idea of doormats -
outside of the traditional negative definition.
If a doormat is a softer place to walk for a child, or a doormat is the
place where the nastiness of the world can be left behind, before going
into the home, I hope I can be the "doormat" for my little girl.
Robyn Coburn
<<The Yes/No discussion isn't meant to imply that parents should become
doormats for their children>>
outside of the traditional negative definition.
If a doormat is a softer place to walk for a child, or a doormat is the
place where the nastiness of the world can be left behind, before going
into the home, I hope I can be the "doormat" for my little girl.
Robyn Coburn
<<The Yes/No discussion isn't meant to imply that parents should become
doormats for their children>>
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 1:30:30 PM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< > I have set up a room here in our house, which has lots of math
them all over our house. They are all over the world.
We had a toy room for a while (Games Room, with table and puzzles and
group-toys, and puppet-box, and costume box...) and I liked that, but the
kids had their own stuff in their own rooms, and there was no requirement
that that stuff stayed in that room or anything. It was an organizational
situation, not a philosophical stance.
Sandra
<< > I have set up a room here in our house, which has lots of math
> manipulatives, language materials, geography stuff - all kinds of things -I love manipulatives and maps and globes and magnets and stuff. We have
> set out on shelves for her.
>>
them all over our house. They are all over the world.
We had a toy room for a while (Games Room, with table and puzzles and
group-toys, and puppet-box, and costume box...) and I liked that, but the
kids had their own stuff in their own rooms, and there was no requirement
that that stuff stayed in that room or anything. It was an organizational
situation, not a philosophical stance.
Sandra
Mary Bianco
>From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>Well Joyce this is the most diplomatic agreable way I've seen this put all
>The Yes/No discussion isn't meant to imply that parents should become
>doormats for their children but a recognition that children are fellow
>human
>beings who need someone to go to bat for them to help them get what the
>adults take for granted.
week. Thank you.
Mary B
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helencolbeck
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
because I think it illustrates something well, and could be helpful
if she found it appealing or interesting enough to explore? What
about a workbook someone just gave me, that I figure won't do
her any harm? What about a book of crossword puzzles?
What's the difference between that and a workbook?
Books. Objects from nature. A variety of artwork. Writing
implements. Others I feel are very helpful, such as our brass
scales, and certain math manipulatives, for example.
stuff and her toys, LOL - I mean, under which of those categories
do blocks fall? What about puzzles? What about dolls, or
dress-up clothes? I would have a hard time sorting her
belongings into two distinct piles.
it, but so long as the room is for her to explore according to her
interests, I figure I am pretty 'safe'. :-) I truly believe she will learn
no matter what. I also believe that the more things that are in
our home that are beautiful and interesting, the richer her
experience of living and growing here will be.
that can illuminate certain principles and ideas particularly well,
IF the child is interested. Of course, if the child is not interested,
it goes back to the bwabwabwa of the adults in Charlie Brown's
world...
hardwired (my word, not hers, obviously) to learn, and that we
need to get out of the way for that to happen. She believed that
children crave learning and are driven to it (this is easily
observable in small children learning to walk and talk -
miraculously! <wink> - without 'lessons' or instruction). She also
believed that an environment that was rich and full of materials
that illuminated information about the child's world and assisted
the child in developing the skills they crave was akin to placing a
banquet before a starving person, and it should be presented as
such. "Here is your feast, lovingly prepared: eat your fill." Filling
the child's plate for them and then spoon-feeding them is not
necessary - in fact it merely turns them off so that they turn away
from the very sustenance they so craved before.
to a situation where I NEVER say no. That seems like
overcompensation to me.
(horrors!!) the other day, and I took him to task on it. I think there
are a lot of things, like obedience, that are convenient for us
when our children are small, but do not serve them well in the
long run. I mantain, however, that this does nto necessarily
translate into there being no room for the word 'no' in our
relationship.
And that goes for HER right to say no sometimes, too.
H.
> on 9/6/02 7:43 AM, Helen Colbeck at the_colbecks@s... wrote:important than
>
> > I am curious about how
> > rigid the definition of 'unschooling' is?
>
> Depends! :-) Why you or your daughter do something is more
> what you do. A workbook dipped into because a child thinks it'sfun like a
> puzzle book is a whole different thing than a workbook that's inthe house
> because mom is concerned the child won't learn the topicwithout the
> workbook.Hrrrmmmm... what about a workbook that is in the house
because I think it illustrates something well, and could be helpful
if she found it appealing or interesting enough to explore? What
about a workbook someone just gave me, that I figure won't do
her any harm? What about a book of crossword puzzles?
What's the difference between that and a workbook?
> > I have set up a room here in our house, which has lots ofmath
> > manipulatives, language materials, geography stuff - allkinds of things -
> > set out on shelves for her.didn't have
>
> Would you feel that her education would not be as good if you
> this stuff that's designed for learning? Do you feel that if youdidn't have
> product X that learning skill/knowledge Y would be really hardor impossible
> for her to acquire through life?I do feel that there are some materials that are mandatory, yes.
Books. Objects from nature. A variety of artwork. Writing
implements. Others I feel are very helpful, such as our brass
scales, and certain math manipulatives, for example.
> If you had to choose between the educational stuff and her toyswhich would
> you choose and how comfortable educationwise would you bewith that
> decision?I don't make that clear a distinction between her 'educational'
stuff and her toys, LOL - I mean, under which of those categories
do blocks fall? What about puzzles? What about dolls, or
dress-up clothes? I would have a hard time sorting her
belongings into two distinct piles.
> I'm not trying to discourage your room! :-) But trying to getacross the
> idea that a room full of learning stuff can feel oh so verycomforting when
> "educational stuff" is really a minor player in the process.Agreed. I can see what you are saying, and that could be part of
it, but so long as the room is for her to explore according to her
interests, I figure I am pretty 'safe'. :-) I truly believe she will learn
no matter what. I also believe that the more things that are in
our home that are beautiful and interesting, the richer her
experience of living and growing here will be.
> > There is a definite influence there, though, and again, Iwill have an
> > wonder if that 'disqualifies' me as an unschooler.
>
> I think teachers -- maybe especially Montessori teachers? --
> even tougher time breaking out of the habit of thinking certainactivities
> lead to a specific result and a specific result requires specificI don't believe that, but I do believe that there are certain things
> activities.
that can illuminate certain principles and ideas particularly well,
IF the child is interested. Of course, if the child is not interested,
it goes back to the bwabwabwa of the adults in Charlie Brown's
world...
> Breaking out of the mode of thinking is hard enough for thosewho haven't
> been trained to think like that! ;-) Society does a good job ofbrainwashing
> us on how children learn!Actually, Maria Montessori's philosophy was that children are
hardwired (my word, not hers, obviously) to learn, and that we
need to get out of the way for that to happen. She believed that
children crave learning and are driven to it (this is easily
observable in small children learning to walk and talk -
miraculously! <wink> - without 'lessons' or instruction). She also
believed that an environment that was rich and full of materials
that illuminated information about the child's world and assisted
the child in developing the skills they crave was akin to placing a
banquet before a starving person, and it should be presented as
such. "Here is your feast, lovingly prepared: eat your fill." Filling
the child's plate for them and then spoon-feeding them is not
necessary - in fact it merely turns them off so that they turn away
from the very sustenance they so craved before.
> > Are there no Christiangenerally it refers
> > unschoolers on the list though?
>
> When people use Christian in reference to homeschooling
> to the fundamentalist Christians who have flocked tohomeschooling and
> created sort of a closed community for themselves. (They referto themselves
> as Christians, as in "I am, and you're not.") The closedcommunity would be
> no skin off anyone's nose if they weren't also politically activeand acted
> as though they *were* Homeschooling itself ;-)whole lot more
>
> In short, the term "Christian" among homeschoolers says a
> than the dictionary definition.just no.
>
> > I am UU
>
> Me too :-)
>
> > I do
> > always seek the 'yes', but sometimes, for me, the answer is
>See my other response to this - the bathtub scenario.
> Such as?
> > ThisSometimes the
> > applies to my dh, my dd, my mom - everybody in my life.
> > answer is just no.getting what they
>
> But your dh and your mom don't need you as an advocate in
> need from the world. :-) We adults tend to see only theadvantages of being
> a kid -- oodles of time free of responsibilty and obligations --but miss
> the total powerlessness and dependence.I agree with this very strongly. I don't however, see it as leading
to a situation where I NEVER say no. That seems like
overcompensation to me.
> The Yes/No discussion isn't meant to imply that parentsshould become
> doormats for their children but a recognition that children arefellow human
> beings who need someone to go to bat for them to help themget what the
> adults take for granted.Definitely true. My dh accused my daughter of "disobedience"
(horrors!!) the other day, and I took him to task on it. I think there
are a lot of things, like obedience, that are convenient for us
when our children are small, but do not serve them well in the
long run. I mantain, however, that this does nto necessarily
translate into there being no room for the word 'no' in our
relationship.
And that goes for HER right to say no sometimes, too.
H.
achisms5
> There are some things, however, that we do that I thinkmay 'disqualify' us.
> I have set up a room here in our house, which has lots of maththings -
> manipulatives, language materials, geography stuff - all kinds of
> set out on shelves for her. My husband started calling it 'theclassroom'
> and that name has stuck.I have a room like that in my house too. We even have
some "authentic" Montessori materials in there and lots of toys. We
call it the play room.
> II just wouldn't call them lessons. I would just ask her if she
> probably will offer 'lessons' at times, but she will never have to
> participate against her will.
wanted to see this when she seems at loose ends.
>obviously
> Just to clarify, I am trained as a Montessori teacher, and it has
> influenced my approach. If there was decent Montessori school inmy town,
> I probably would have left her in there, but I am now so excited bythe
> whole idea of her being home that even if one moved in tomorrow, Iwould
> never send her! There is a definite influence there, though, andagain, I
> wonder if that 'disqualifies' me as an unschooler.I was never certified as a Montessori teacher, but I taught in a
Montessori school and was trained by Montessori certified teachers
and attended workshops and read some of her books. I wouldn't send
my kids to one now tho either. One of the things that I think
hinders Montessori schools (around here at least) from being truly
child led is that all the schools either stop at the third or sixth
grade. From there, most go to more traditional schools, so there is
a concern about making sure they are on track to do so.
To me, my experience as a Montessori teacher only helped me embrace
unschooling. I see the basic principles of the Montessori approach--
individual liberty, observation of the child, and preparation of the
environment--as very much in keeping with unschooling. There are
some things about Montessori that I don't like, but I had problems
with these things when I taught too. Namely, using the materials
only in the prescribed manner and the discouragement of fantasy
play.
In fact, I have extended the idea of giving children freedom to
choose in a prepared environment into other areas of parenting as
well. For example, I used to strictly limit TV. But now, I feel
like if TV is a part of their environment, they should be free to
choose that as well.
One detrimental thing about my Montessori experience tho was the
insistence of making them clean up after themselves and not doing it
for them. I was very consistent, shall we say, about this with my
two oldest when they were young. Even now, when I ask them to help
me do a general clean up I hear "But I didn't do that. It's not my
responsibility." With my youngest, I haven't done this. When we are
finished I suggest let's put this away so we don't lose the pieces or
it doesn't get stepped on. Sometimes she will and when she doesn't I
just do it and often she ends up helping me anyway--and much more
cheerfully than the others did. I also found that if I insisted that
they finish all the steps and cleand up afterwards, they often would
avoid doing some really cool things to avoid all the drudgery.
I would be very interested to know what things about your training
you think will interfere with unschooing?
>I am also a UU and very interested in Zen Buddhism. This brings up a
> For the record, I am UU and my dh is a Zen Buddhist.
question I have been meaning to post on this list. There are a lot
of teachers (relative to the small number of members) at our church.
I don't always feel comfortable talking about hsing and why I do it
as many are very supportive of public schools. I belong to a UU
homeschool list and this topic has come up and I know there are other
UUs on this list. It seems to me, that unschooling and UU fit very
well together and I am sort of surprised that more aren't interested
in, at the very least, dismantling the current system of public
education and replacing it with more of a learning community/free
school type model. Any thoughts or experience of other UUs out there?
Mary
helencolbeck
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "achisms5" <marydan@a...>
wrote:
different room that we call the play room (EEK!). That is the room
to go to when she has friends over (typically 'schooled' friends
right now), and also a room my one-year-old can go into. There
are too many fragiles and chokables in the 'classroom' for her. I
just don't trust kids who are used to a 'wreck room' unsupervised
in there... when we are home and just hanging out, she can go
in either - whatever she wants. They are just different. One is
much more orderly and she can escape her sister for a while.
No, she doesn't need me to go in with her, and yes, she can take
anything she wants from the shelves to explore.
mean it's not what they are. ;-)
philosophy is, in most cases, terribly compromised in order to
accommodate societal pressures, and parental expectations of
what school should look like.
There are
homeschooling affords for my daughter to play freely. I f she
wants to kiss the materials before she puts them back on the
shelf, she is free to do so. :-) Ditto for creative play with the items
in the phonic object box, and building stuff with the geometric
solids. I think that many Montessori teachers are way too uptight
about that stuff - that is what I try to borrow from Waldorf - that
and natural forms and materials in the environment. I like being
free to pick and choose the things from which my daughter can
pick and choose, without being tied down to one philosophy.
One day we will have a new computer which plays DVDs and our
13" TV and VCR will be gone.
she does the "Why do I have to do that?" routine, is to say,
"Because it's a job that needs doing, and it's a job you can do."
We talk about being part of the family, and how we all need to
help each other. I model that by doing her laundry, and cleaning
up her toys on her behalf sometimes. I expect it of her by asking
her to fold laundry beyond her own, and pick up her sister's toys.
whole 'sequence of activities' thing, that there may be holes in
her 'education'. I know intellectually that I have to let go of that
and have faith in her, that her appetite for learning is like her
appetite for food, and she knows how ungry she is better than I,
but I still hear those naggin voices sometimes. That's when I try
to do nothing at all, and just let her be, fearful that if I do try to
initiate 'learning' with her, that it will be contaminated, KMIM?
I am, despite my homeschooling present and private schooling
past, very supportive of public schools, especially public school
teachers. I don't like the way our current system runs, but I
certainly don't blame the teachers for that. I think the whole
business needs a complete paradigm shift. I think that having
free public education as an option is critical. I also think it
should be regarded as an OPTION - not a mandatory thing. I find
I never have troubles when talking to teachers about
homeschooling, unless they are openly derogatory or rude, but
that's true of anybody...
H.
wrote:
>math
>
> > There are some things, however, that we do that I think
> may 'disqualify' us.
> > I have set up a room here in our house, which has lots of
> > manipulatives, language materials, geography stuff - allkinds of
> things -toys. We
> > set out on shelves for her. My husband started calling it 'the
> classroom'
> > and that name has stuck.
>
>
> I have a room like that in my house too. We even have
> some "authentic" Montessori materials in there and lots of
> call it the play room.Ooooohhh - you guys are REALLY gonna hate this!! We have a
different room that we call the play room (EEK!). That is the room
to go to when she has friends over (typically 'schooled' friends
right now), and also a room my one-year-old can go into. There
are too many fragiles and chokables in the 'classroom' for her. I
just don't trust kids who are used to a 'wreck room' unsupervised
in there... when we are home and just hanging out, she can go
in either - whatever she wants. They are just different. One is
much more orderly and she can escape her sister for a while.
No, she doesn't need me to go in with her, and yes, she can take
anything she wants from the shelves to explore.
>to
>
> > I
> > probably will offer 'lessons' at times, but she will never have
> > participate against her will.I probably wouldn't call them lessons either, but that doesn't
>
>
>
> I just wouldn't call them lessons. I would just ask her if she
> wanted to see this when she seems at loose ends.
>
mean it's not what they are. ;-)
> >has
> > Just to clarify, I am trained as a Montessori teacher, and it
> obviouslyschool in
> > influenced my approach. If there was decent Montessori
> my town,excited by
> > I probably would have left her in there, but I am now so
> thetomorrow, I
> > whole idea of her being home that even if one moved in
> wouldand
> > never send her! There is a definite influence there, though,
> again, Iteachers
> > wonder if that 'disqualifies' me as an unschooler.
>
>
>
> I was never certified as a Montessori teacher, but I taught in a
> Montessori school and was trained by Montessori certified
> and attended workshops and read some of her books. Iwouldn't send
> my kids to one now tho either. One of the things that I thinktruly
> hinders Montessori schools (around here at least) from being
> child led is that all the schools either stop at the third or sixththere is
> grade. From there, most go to more traditional schools, so
> a concern about making sure they are on track to do so.I think this is a very valid point. I feel that the Montessori
philosophy is, in most cases, terribly compromised in order to
accommodate societal pressures, and parental expectations of
what school should look like.
> To me, my experience as a Montessori teacher only helped meembrace
> unschooling. I see the basic principles of the Montessoriapproach--
> individual liberty, observation of the child, and preparation ofthe
> environment--as very much in keeping with unschooling.Me too. :-)
There are
> some things about Montessori that I don't like, but I hadproblems
> with these things when I taught too. Namely, using thematerials
> only in the prescribed manner and the discouragement offantasy
> play.I also agree with this assessment, and I like the opportunity that
homeschooling affords for my daughter to play freely. I f she
wants to kiss the materials before she puts them back on the
shelf, she is free to do so. :-) Ditto for creative play with the items
in the phonic object box, and building stuff with the geometric
solids. I think that many Montessori teachers are way too uptight
about that stuff - that is what I try to borrow from Waldorf - that
and natural forms and materials in the environment. I like being
free to pick and choose the things from which my daughter can
pick and choose, without being tied down to one philosophy.
> In fact, I have extended the idea of giving children freedom toparenting as
> choose in a prepared environment into other areas of
> well. For example, I used to strictly limit TV. But now, I feelMy goal is to get to a point where it is not part of our environment.
> like if TV is a part of their environment, they should be free to
> choose that as well.
One day we will have a new computer which plays DVDs and our
13" TV and VCR will be gone.
> One detrimental thing about my Montessori experience thowas the
> insistence of making them clean up after themselves and notdoing it
> for them. I was very consistent, shall we say, about this withmy
> two oldest when they were young. Even now, when I ask themto help
> me do a general clean up I hear "But I didn't do that. It's not mywe are
> responsibility." With my youngest, I haven't done this. When
> finished I suggest let's put this away so we don't lose thepieces or
> it doesn't get stepped on. Sometimes she will and when shedoesn't I
> just do it and often she ends up helping me anyway--and muchmore
> cheerfully than the others did. I also found that if I insisted thatwould
> they finish all the steps and cleand up afterwards, they often
> avoid doing some really cool things to avoid all the drudgery.Yes Yes Yes!!! My line when I ask my dd to do this or that, when
she does the "Why do I have to do that?" routine, is to say,
"Because it's a job that needs doing, and it's a job you can do."
We talk about being part of the family, and how we all need to
help each other. I model that by doing her laundry, and cleaning
up her toys on her behalf sometimes. I expect it of her by asking
her to fold laundry beyond her own, and pick up her sister's toys.
> I would be very interested to know what things about yourtraining
> you think will interfere with unschooing?I think you have touched on them very well here. I worry about the
whole 'sequence of activities' thing, that there may be holes in
her 'education'. I know intellectually that I have to let go of that
and have faith in her, that her appetite for learning is like her
appetite for food, and she knows how ungry she is better than I,
but I still hear those naggin voices sometimes. That's when I try
to do nothing at all, and just let her be, fearful that if I do try to
initiate 'learning' with her, that it will be contaminated, KMIM?
> > For the record, I am UU and my dh is a Zen Buddhist.brings up a
>
>
> I am also a UU and very interested in Zen Buddhism. This
> question I have been meaning to post on this list. There are alot
> of teachers (relative to the small number of members) at ourchurch.
> I don't always feel comfortable talking about hsing and why I doit
> as many are very supportive of public schools. I belong to aUU
> homeschool list and this topic has come up and I know thereare other
> UUs on this list. It seems to me, that unschooling and UU fitvery
> well together and I am sort of surprised that more aren'tinterested
> in, at the very least, dismantling the current system of publiccommunity/free
> education and replacing it with more of a learning
> school type model. Any thoughts or experience of other UUsout there?
I am, despite my homeschooling present and private schooling
past, very supportive of public schools, especially public school
teachers. I don't like the way our current system runs, but I
certainly don't blame the teachers for that. I think the whole
business needs a complete paradigm shift. I think that having
free public education as an option is critical. I also think it
should be regarded as an OPTION - not a mandatory thing. I find
I never have troubles when talking to teachers about
homeschooling, unless they are openly derogatory or rude, but
that's true of anybody...
H.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 2:10:21 PM, dezigna@... writes:
<< If a doormat is a softer place to walk for a child, or a doormat is the
place where the nastiness of the world can be left behind, before going
into the home, I hope I can be the "doormat" for my little girl.
noise when you walk on them, or doormats hooked up to a switch that make
something move or light up.
Magic doormats! Trick doormats!
I'd be one of those.
Sandra
<< If a doormat is a softer place to walk for a child, or a doormat is the
place where the nastiness of the world can be left behind, before going
into the home, I hope I can be the "doormat" for my little girl.
>>Just yesterday Holly and I were talking about Halloween doormats that make a
noise when you walk on them, or doormats hooked up to a switch that make
something move or light up.
Magic doormats! Trick doormats!
I'd be one of those.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 9:14:09 AM, the_colbecks@... writes:
<< Just to clarify, I am trained as a Montessori teacher, and it has obviously
influenced my approach. If there was decent Montessori school in my town,
I probably would have left her in there, but I am now so excited by the
whole idea of her being home that even if one moved in tomorrow, I would
never send her! There is a definite influence there, though, and again, I
wonder if that 'disqualifies' me as an unschooler.
to simulate home situations and back yards, what's left?
Letters can be touched on signs, on toys, on brass plaques and wooden address
signs and ceramic tiles.
<< Just to clarify, I am trained as a Montessori teacher, and it has obviously
influenced my approach. If there was decent Montessori school in my town,
I probably would have left her in there, but I am now so excited by the
whole idea of her being home that even if one moved in tomorrow, I would
never send her! There is a definite influence there, though, and again, I
wonder if that 'disqualifies' me as an unschooler.
>>If you remove all the Montessori routines and traditions which were designed
to simulate home situations and back yards, what's left?
Letters can be touched on signs, on toys, on brass plaques and wooden address
signs and ceramic tiles.
helencolbeck
Can I ask you to please clarify your question? I don't quite
understand...
H.
understand...
H.
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/6/02 9:14:09 AM, the_colbecks@s...
writes:
>
> << Just to clarify, I am trained as a Montessori teacher, and it
has obviously
> influenced my approach. If there was decent Montessori
school in my town,
> I probably would have left her in there, but I am now so excited
by the
> whole idea of her being home that even if one moved in
tomorrow, I would
> never send her! There is a definite influence there, though,
and again, I
> wonder if that 'disqualifies' me as an unschooler.
> >>
>
> If you remove all the Montessori routines and traditions which
were designed
> to simulate home situations and back yards, what's left?
>
> Letters can be touched on signs, on toys, on brass plaques
and wooden address
> signs and ceramic tiles.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 5:48:25 PM, the_colbecks@... writes:
<< > If you remove all the Montessori routines and traditions which
were designed to simulate home situations and back yards, what's left? >>
If a child's cubby is her room
and washing up (in school) is washing up at home
and playing with rice is playing with sand in the yard, or going through real
rice or beans to clean them for cooking
and dressup is dressup...
If the mainly "Montessori" activities are all accounted for by everyday real
life, what of Montessori is still left to do (in any teacherly or formal way)?
Sandra
<< > If you remove all the Montessori routines and traditions which
were designed to simulate home situations and back yards, what's left? >>
If a child's cubby is her room
and washing up (in school) is washing up at home
and playing with rice is playing with sand in the yard, or going through real
rice or beans to clean them for cooking
and dressup is dressup...
If the mainly "Montessori" activities are all accounted for by everyday real
life, what of Montessori is still left to do (in any teacherly or formal way)?
Sandra
helencolbeck
Gotcha. Well, the activities you describe are mostly "Practical
Life" activities (or activities one wouldn't find in a Montessori
class, like dress-up). In a home situation, helping with chores
and just participating in day-to-day activities with the family ARE
the child's Practical Life. The way in which my training would
help me there would be to remind me to include my dd as much
as possible, and to find ways for her to help me by making the
tools she needs to do so as accessible as possible (low
storage, small implemets, etc.). Montessori did have specific
approaches to Math, Language, Geography, etc., which are not
addressed in your examples.
Those are the areas where specific materials to illustrate certain
concepts are helpful. Math manipulatives, globes, books, pencil
and paper... these things become very useful. Having a battery
of ways in which I can make all of these things accessible and
appealing helps too.
Where is the 'Montessori' in my house? It is in my low shelving,
my carefully selected books with beautiful language and
illustrations, the small dustpan and broom that hangs in my
kitchen. It is in how I address her, without talking 'down' to her,
or 'downsizing' my vocabulary. It is in a hundred tiny details that
make my home a space that accomodates the stature and
abilities of my child, so that she can participate as fully as
possible, as easily as possible.
HTH,
H.
Life" activities (or activities one wouldn't find in a Montessori
class, like dress-up). In a home situation, helping with chores
and just participating in day-to-day activities with the family ARE
the child's Practical Life. The way in which my training would
help me there would be to remind me to include my dd as much
as possible, and to find ways for her to help me by making the
tools she needs to do so as accessible as possible (low
storage, small implemets, etc.). Montessori did have specific
approaches to Math, Language, Geography, etc., which are not
addressed in your examples.
Those are the areas where specific materials to illustrate certain
concepts are helpful. Math manipulatives, globes, books, pencil
and paper... these things become very useful. Having a battery
of ways in which I can make all of these things accessible and
appealing helps too.
Where is the 'Montessori' in my house? It is in my low shelving,
my carefully selected books with beautiful language and
illustrations, the small dustpan and broom that hangs in my
kitchen. It is in how I address her, without talking 'down' to her,
or 'downsizing' my vocabulary. It is in a hundred tiny details that
make my home a space that accomodates the stature and
abilities of my child, so that she can participate as fully as
possible, as easily as possible.
HTH,
H.
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/6/02 5:48:25 PM, the_colbecks@s...
writes:
>
> << > If you remove all the Montessori routines and traditions
which
> were designed to simulate home situations and back yards,
what's left? >>
>
> If a child's cubby is her room
> and washing up (in school) is washing up at home
> and playing with rice is playing with sand in the yard, or going
through real
> rice or beans to clean them for cooking
> and dressup is dressup...
>
> If the mainly "Montessori" activities are all accounted for by
everyday real
> life, what of Montessori is still left to do (in any teacherly or
formal way)?
>
> Sandra
helencolbeck
Sorry - I missed the "teacherly or formal way" part.
Not much. I could possibly present some materials to her in the
way I was trained to, and if she is interested in it, I see no harm
in that. I certainly woudl not eschew it simply so I could call
myself an 'unschooler'. That is the kind of rigidity I wish to AVOID
with 'unschooling'!
H.
Not much. I could possibly present some materials to her in the
way I was trained to, and if she is interested in it, I see no harm
in that. I certainly woudl not eschew it simply so I could call
myself an 'unschooler'. That is the kind of rigidity I wish to AVOID
with 'unschooling'!
H.
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/6/02 5:48:25 PM, the_colbecks@s...
writes:
>
> << > If you remove all the Montessori routines and traditions
which
> were designed to simulate home situations and back yards,
what's left? >>
>
> If a child's cubby is her room
> and washing up (in school) is washing up at home
> and playing with rice is playing with sand in the yard, or going
through real
> rice or beans to clean them for cooking
> and dressup is dressup...
>
> If the mainly "Montessori" activities are all accounted for by
everyday real
> life, what of Montessori is still left to do (in any teacherly or
formal way)?
>
> Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 3:23:56 PM, the_colbecks@... writes:
<< What about a book of crossword puzzles?
What's the difference between that and a workbook?
some investment in it being done. I've never heard of a family requiring a
child to finish a crossword puzzle book, or a coloring book. If they did,
I'd think it was detrimental to learning joyfully.
Sandra
<< What about a book of crossword puzzles?
What's the difference between that and a workbook?
>>Whether it's just there to be freely used or ignored, or whether the mom has
some investment in it being done. I've never heard of a family requiring a
child to finish a crossword puzzle book, or a coloring book. If they did,
I'd think it was detrimental to learning joyfully.
Sandra
achisms5
-=-I worry about the
whole 'sequence of activities' thing, that there may be holes in
her 'education'. -=-
Oh, I forgot about this part. I didn't care much for this either.
If a child chose to do something that they were not "ready" for, it
seemed more respectful and natural to me to say ok and then get it
out and do it. If the child could not do it or understand it and
became frustrated, then say something like "Let me show you something
over here that might help." or some such thing.
I think if someone is interested in something, they more likely want
to start with the big picture and if they are really interested, they
will seek out the information they need to understand it better.
Then they go back and "fill in the holes" in a meaningful, real way.
If your daughter wanted to build something with blocks would you let
her go at it or would you say "Well, first you need to understand the
attributes and properties of all these different shaped and sized
blocks. Once you've mastered that then you can build."
Mary
whole 'sequence of activities' thing, that there may be holes in
her 'education'. -=-
Oh, I forgot about this part. I didn't care much for this either.
If a child chose to do something that they were not "ready" for, it
seemed more respectful and natural to me to say ok and then get it
out and do it. If the child could not do it or understand it and
became frustrated, then say something like "Let me show you something
over here that might help." or some such thing.
I think if someone is interested in something, they more likely want
to start with the big picture and if they are really interested, they
will seek out the information they need to understand it better.
Then they go back and "fill in the holes" in a meaningful, real way.
If your daughter wanted to build something with blocks would you let
her go at it or would you say "Well, first you need to understand the
attributes and properties of all these different shaped and sized
blocks. Once you've mastered that then you can build."
Mary
helencolbeck
LOL!! You are absolutely right, of course!!
When I said I worry, I meant that I can still feel that niggling
voice, but I don't really think that it is impossible for a child to
acquire a rich, full, deep, and broad education without the
Montessori stuff.
H.
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "achisms5" <marydan@a...>
wrote:
When I said I worry, I meant that I can still feel that niggling
voice, but I don't really think that it is impossible for a child to
acquire a rich, full, deep, and broad education without the
Montessori stuff.
H.
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "achisms5" <marydan@a...>
wrote:
> -=-I worry about theget it
> whole 'sequence of activities' thing, that there may be holes in
> her 'education'. -=-
>
>
> Oh, I forgot about this part. I didn't care much for this either.
> If a child chose to do something that they were not "ready" for, it
> seemed more respectful and natural to me to say ok and then
> out and do it. If the child could not do it or understand it andsomething
> became frustrated, then say something like "Let me show you
> over here that might help." or some such thing.want
>
>
> I think if someone is interested in something, they more likely
> to start with the big picture and if they are really interested, theyway.
> will seek out the information they need to understand it better.
> Then they go back and "fill in the holes" in a meaningful, real
> If your daughter wanted to build something with blocks wouldyou let
> her go at it or would you say "Well, first you need to understandthe
> attributes and properties of all these different shaped andsized
> blocks. Once you've mastered that then you can build."
>
>
> Mary
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
Chiming in on the "Christian Unschoolers" question from a few
days ago (been busy with putting together a party for the
homeschoolers in our parish - who follow every possible
philosophy of learning it appears.) This group, like every group
is much more accurate in talking about "we" than in talking about
"they".
From time to time a Christian will try to address some of the
opinions about "them" but with very little effect on the apparent
group-think view that Christians as a whole are worthy of
condemnation. That said, there are a bunch of Christians on the
list; it is a matter of personal taste whether to address the
view or ignore it.
days ago (been busy with putting together a party for the
homeschoolers in our parish - who follow every possible
philosophy of learning it appears.) This group, like every group
is much more accurate in talking about "we" than in talking about
"they".
From time to time a Christian will try to address some of the
opinions about "them" but with very little effect on the apparent
group-think view that Christians as a whole are worthy of
condemnation. That said, there are a bunch of Christians on the
list; it is a matter of personal taste whether to address the
view or ignore it.
Fetteroll
on 9/6/02 5:22 PM, helencolbeck at the_colbecks@... wrote:
philosophy that gets put into practice in the Montessori schools, is it?
Wasn't it her son or a relative that took over after her death that turned
it more result oriented rather than free exploration?
conscious of mentally shifting from being another obstacle in children's
lives to being their advocate.
Joyce
> Actually, Maria Montessori's philosophy was that children are*She* sounded like she was on the right track :-) But that's not the current
> hardwired (my word, not hers, obviously) to learn, and that we
> need to get out of the way for that to happen.
philosophy that gets put into practice in the Montessori schools, is it?
Wasn't it her son or a relative that took over after her death that turned
it more result oriented rather than free exploration?
> I don't however, see it as leadingWell, see, it's not a rule. It's a philosophy. It's a technique to be more
> to a situation where I NEVER say no. That seems like
> overcompensation to me.
conscious of mentally shifting from being another obstacle in children's
lives to being their advocate.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/7/02 11:48:53 AM, dcannon@... writes:
<< From time to time a Christian will try to address some of the
opinions about "them" but with very little effect on the apparent
group-think view that Christians as a whole are worthy of
condemnation. >>
By "parish" I figure you might be Catholic.
The fundamentalist Christian homeschoolers who were being discussed don't
consider Catholics to be Christian. I'm sure I'm accurate about "them"
(Southern Baptists and other fundamentalists) teaching their children that
Catholics are not really Christians.
There are very few statements about Christians which are true of all
Christians.
And there are very, very MANY Christian homeschoolers whose view of
Christianity is very very narrow. Statements of Faith (required by so many
groups all over the country) don't even always include all fundamentalists.
Examples:
Family Association for Instruction and Teaching at Home
1. We believe the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired
Word of God, without error, the revelation of his will for the salvation of
men.
2. We believe in one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect and
eternally existing in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3. We believe that Jesus Christ is true God and true man, having been
conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He died on the
cross, the sacrifice for our sins according to the scriptures. Further, He
arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where at the right hand of
the Majesty on High, He is our Priest and Advocate.
4. We believe that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Lord
Jesus Christ, and during this age to convict men, regenerate the believing
sinner, indwell, guide, instruct, and empower the believer for godly living
and sacrifice.
5. We believe the shed blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrection provide the
only ground for justification and salvation for all who believe, and only
those who receive Jesus Christ are born of the Holy Spirit, and thus become
children of God.
6. We believe in the personal and imminent coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and that this "Blessed Hope" has a vital bearing on the personal life and
service of the believer.
7. We believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead; of the believer to
everlasting blessedness and joy with the Lord; of the unrepentant to judgment
and everlasting conscious punishment.
Statement of Faith
We believe the Bible to be the only infallible authoritative Word of God. (II
Tim. 3:16)
We believe God is one divine Spirit eternally manifested as Father, Son and
Holy Spirit. (Jn 10:29f; Jn 10:30 ; Jn 15:26)
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His
sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His
shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of
the Father, and in His visible and physical return to earth.
We believe all have sinned and as a result are alienated from God (Rom. 3:23,
5:12), and that eternal redemption is only brought about by faith in the
finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 10: 9-10; Eph. 2:8-9).
We believe that if one rejects the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, he
subjects himself to eternal damnation and separation from God the Father and
will spend eternity in a literal place called hell (Rev. 21:8).
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit, by whose indwelling,
the Christian is enabled to live a godly life. (Rom. 8:13-14; I Cor. 3:16,
6:19-20; Eph. 4:30, 5:18).
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
<< From time to time a Christian will try to address some of the
opinions about "them" but with very little effect on the apparent
group-think view that Christians as a whole are worthy of
condemnation. >>
By "parish" I figure you might be Catholic.
The fundamentalist Christian homeschoolers who were being discussed don't
consider Catholics to be Christian. I'm sure I'm accurate about "them"
(Southern Baptists and other fundamentalists) teaching their children that
Catholics are not really Christians.
There are very few statements about Christians which are true of all
Christians.
And there are very, very MANY Christian homeschoolers whose view of
Christianity is very very narrow. Statements of Faith (required by so many
groups all over the country) don't even always include all fundamentalists.
Examples:
Family Association for Instruction and Teaching at Home
1. We believe the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired
Word of God, without error, the revelation of his will for the salvation of
men.
2. We believe in one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect and
eternally existing in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3. We believe that Jesus Christ is true God and true man, having been
conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He died on the
cross, the sacrifice for our sins according to the scriptures. Further, He
arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where at the right hand of
the Majesty on High, He is our Priest and Advocate.
4. We believe that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Lord
Jesus Christ, and during this age to convict men, regenerate the believing
sinner, indwell, guide, instruct, and empower the believer for godly living
and sacrifice.
5. We believe the shed blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrection provide the
only ground for justification and salvation for all who believe, and only
those who receive Jesus Christ are born of the Holy Spirit, and thus become
children of God.
6. We believe in the personal and imminent coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and that this "Blessed Hope" has a vital bearing on the personal life and
service of the believer.
7. We believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead; of the believer to
everlasting blessedness and joy with the Lord; of the unrepentant to judgment
and everlasting conscious punishment.
Statement of Faith
We believe the Bible to be the only infallible authoritative Word of God. (II
Tim. 3:16)
We believe God is one divine Spirit eternally manifested as Father, Son and
Holy Spirit. (Jn 10:29f; Jn 10:30 ; Jn 15:26)
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His
sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His
shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of
the Father, and in His visible and physical return to earth.
We believe all have sinned and as a result are alienated from God (Rom. 3:23,
5:12), and that eternal redemption is only brought about by faith in the
finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 10: 9-10; Eph. 2:8-9).
We believe that if one rejects the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, he
subjects himself to eternal damnation and separation from God the Father and
will spend eternity in a literal place called hell (Rev. 21:8).
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit, by whose indwelling,
the Christian is enabled to live a godly life. (Rom. 8:13-14; I Cor. 3:16,
6:19-20; Eph. 4:30, 5:18).
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Fetteroll
on 9/7/02 1:22 PM, Nora or Devereaux Cannon at dcannon@... wrote:
that express that point of view. It may be what some hear, but it isn't what
anyone in "the group" has said.
Joyce
> the apparentI suspect you can't find in context quotes from long standing listmembers
> group-think view that Christians as a whole are worthy of
> condemnation.
that express that point of view. It may be what some hear, but it isn't what
anyone in "the group" has said.
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 9/6/02 5:45 PM, achisms5 at marydan@... wrote:
highly invested in education.
It doesn't make much sense. UU's should be big on attachment parenting and
unschooling and all those philosophies that treat children as fellow human
beings. :-) But they aren't. It's just really hard to step back and
objectively see that standard parenting practices violate quite a few of the
principles!
Maybe all us UU unschoolers could all band together and be a force inside UU
:-)
Though last spring at our church we had a great meeting to start generating
new ideas for RE. Lots of creative learning ideas. :-) I suspect it won't go
nearly as far as the meeting, though. Parents don't have time for extensive
teacher training and need to rely on the only model of education they're
familiar with :-/
Joyce
> It seems to me, that unschooling and UU fit veryI think UU tends to appeal to intellectuals. And intellectuals tend to be
> well together and I am sort of surprised that more aren't interested
> in, at the very least, dismantling the current system of public
> education and replacing it with more of a learning community/free
> school type model. Any thoughts or experience of other UUs out there?
highly invested in education.
It doesn't make much sense. UU's should be big on attachment parenting and
unschooling and all those philosophies that treat children as fellow human
beings. :-) But they aren't. It's just really hard to step back and
objectively see that standard parenting practices violate quite a few of the
principles!
Maybe all us UU unschoolers could all band together and be a force inside UU
:-)
Though last spring at our church we had a great meeting to start generating
new ideas for RE. Lots of creative learning ideas. :-) I suspect it won't go
nearly as far as the meeting, though. Parents don't have time for extensive
teacher training and need to rely on the only model of education they're
familiar with :-/
Joyce
helencolbeck
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
Sadly, in many, many schools, this is exactly true.
granddaughter (the daughter of Mario Montessori, Maria's son) in
1995, and we were very vocally warned against EXACTLY this.
We were strongly encouraged to stand our ground in schools
where admins are results oriented, and impression-oriented,
rather than being true to the philosophy they claim to espouse.
One of the many benefits of the three-year age-range in
classrooms is that children can go at their own pace, and focus
on the areas that capture their interest. This is also the reason
there is so much overlap of materials between the levels (a 3-6
class will have many of the same materials as a 6-9 class, for
instance).
I keep trying. :-) I make no claims to perfection, and it always
rankles when I hear others doing so. Who am I to say that this or
that person is not perfect - that their children are nbot perfectly
behaved every moment? Perhaps they are, but I do doubt it. I
think children deserve to be treated with deep respect. I believe
that, for the most part, our society treats them very shabbily
indeed. I don't however, believe that removing the word 'no' from
my vocabulary is really the answer. I feel there are times when it
is appropriate to say no - never for its own sake, of course, but
simply because the answer is no.
I certainly want my daughter to see what a calm and respectful
no looks like before she starts dating. There will come a time
when she will FEEL the no... will she feel she has an obligation
to suppress it, simply because she can't 'justify' it? Or will she
have learned that there are times when "Because I don't want to."
is enough of a reason, all by itself?
H.
> *She* sounded like she was on the right track :-) But that's notthe current
> philosophy that gets put into practice in the Montessorischools, is it?
Sadly, in many, many schools, this is exactly true.
> Wasn't it her son or a relative that took over after her death thatturned
> it more result oriented rather than free exploration?No - not at all, actually. I recieved my training from MM's
granddaughter (the daughter of Mario Montessori, Maria's son) in
1995, and we were very vocally warned against EXACTLY this.
We were strongly encouraged to stand our ground in schools
where admins are results oriented, and impression-oriented,
rather than being true to the philosophy they claim to espouse.
One of the many benefits of the three-year age-range in
classrooms is that children can go at their own pace, and focus
on the areas that capture their interest. This is also the reason
there is so much overlap of materials between the levels (a 3-6
class will have many of the same materials as a 6-9 class, for
instance).
>more
> > I don't however, see it as leading
> > to a situation where I NEVER say no. That seems like
> > overcompensation to me.
>
> Well, see, it's not a rule. It's a philosophy. It's a technique to be
> conscious of mentally shifting from being another obstacle inchildren's
> lives to being their advocate.And this is something I strive for every day. I keep stumbling, but
I keep trying. :-) I make no claims to perfection, and it always
rankles when I hear others doing so. Who am I to say that this or
that person is not perfect - that their children are nbot perfectly
behaved every moment? Perhaps they are, but I do doubt it. I
think children deserve to be treated with deep respect. I believe
that, for the most part, our society treats them very shabbily
indeed. I don't however, believe that removing the word 'no' from
my vocabulary is really the answer. I feel there are times when it
is appropriate to say no - never for its own sake, of course, but
simply because the answer is no.
I certainly want my daughter to see what a calm and respectful
no looks like before she starts dating. There will come a time
when she will FEEL the no... will she feel she has an obligation
to suppress it, simply because she can't 'justify' it? Or will she
have learned that there are times when "Because I don't want to."
is enough of a reason, all by itself?
H.
achisms5
> I think UU tends to appeal to intellectuals. And intellectuals tendto be
> highly invested in education.Which is exactly why I don't understand why more don't see the type
>
of school reform that is really needed :-). Catholics have schools,
Christians have schools, why not UUs? Imagine a school that was
based on the principles of UU--it would be a far better sight than
most schools I have seen!
>inside UU
> Maybe all us UU unschoolers could all band together and be a force
> :-)The UUs that I know about who do hs seem to lean much more toward
unschooling than most. And there is a UU unschooler in a group we
just joined--so maybe..... :-). My dh tells me often I should start
a school that is like a learning/resource center but right now my
energies do, and need to, go to raising my own children. But, there
is a nagging part of me that feels since ps won't go away (nor do I
necessarily think they should), that more people (maybe me someday?)
should work to reform the schools--or better yet don't try to reform
them, just open one with the reforms in place as an example of how it
could be. Way too daunting of a task for me at this point, or maybe
ever.
>generating
> Though last spring at our church we had a great meeting to start
> new ideas for RE. Lots of creative learning ideas. :-) I suspect itwon't go
> nearly as far as the meeting, though. Parents don't have time forextensive
> teacher training and need to rely on the only model of educationthey're
> familiar with :-/One of the things I love about our congregation is that it is full of
articulate, interested, creative people who love to talk about and
share their interests and insights. How much training would they
really need?
Mary
achisms5
-=-I feel there are times when it
is appropriate to say no - never for its own sake, of course, but
simply because the answer is no.-=-
I think this is the point of a lot of this. Many parents say no for
its own sake because they think it is good for their kids. Just as
they don't think children can learn naturlly, they think children
won't naturally get the message that they can't always have what they
want when they want it without imposing deprivation on them.
Last night I played a game of cards with my dd. She wanted to play
another one and I was really tired and I said "I am really tired. I
just want to go to sleep. We can play again tomorrow." She said ok
and didn't whine and insist, I think in part because when she says "I
don't want to do that right now....." to me, I respect that. If she
had insisted, I would have said something like "I am really tired and
I wish you would respect that."
-=-I certainly want my daughter to see what a calm and respectful
no looks like before she starts dating. There will come a time
when she will FEEL the no... will she feel she has an obligation
to suppress it, simply because she can't 'justify' it? Or will she
have learned that there are times when "Because I don't want to."
is enough of a reason, all by itself?-=-
I think the problems of guys not respecting girls' nos has more to do
with them not being modeled respect for others in general more than
the fact that girls are afraid to say no. Often, I think guys don't
take no seriously--they think they don't really mean it. It's what
girls are supposed to say just like it is what parents are supposed
to say when their kid wants a cookie right before dinner. I think
this comes in part from not being raised to live mindfully. I think
it, in part, comes from the frequency with which parents say no to
a request off the cuff because they don't want to be bothered or
don't want to spoil their children. And then, when the child whines
and argues (as in why can't I) and the parent runs out of reasonble
things to say or just wants the kid to stop, they just say "Oh
OKAAAAY already!!!!!!!" If no is used sparingly, and only when there
is a real reason for it--including respecting the parents' boundaries-
-it carries much more meaning.
When I was in college, I was dating a guy and he wanted me to spend
the night. We were both tired, and I didn't want to drive home. I
told him clearly I did not want to have sex. He said ok we didn't
have to--we can jsut cuddle. I told him clearly, at least two more
times that I really meant it I did not want to have sex. He assured
me he was ok with that--I believed him. Later, he started pressuring
me to have sex. It wasn't because I was afraid to say no. I left
and never saw him again.
Mary
is appropriate to say no - never for its own sake, of course, but
simply because the answer is no.-=-
I think this is the point of a lot of this. Many parents say no for
its own sake because they think it is good for their kids. Just as
they don't think children can learn naturlly, they think children
won't naturally get the message that they can't always have what they
want when they want it without imposing deprivation on them.
Last night I played a game of cards with my dd. She wanted to play
another one and I was really tired and I said "I am really tired. I
just want to go to sleep. We can play again tomorrow." She said ok
and didn't whine and insist, I think in part because when she says "I
don't want to do that right now....." to me, I respect that. If she
had insisted, I would have said something like "I am really tired and
I wish you would respect that."
-=-I certainly want my daughter to see what a calm and respectful
no looks like before she starts dating. There will come a time
when she will FEEL the no... will she feel she has an obligation
to suppress it, simply because she can't 'justify' it? Or will she
have learned that there are times when "Because I don't want to."
is enough of a reason, all by itself?-=-
I think the problems of guys not respecting girls' nos has more to do
with them not being modeled respect for others in general more than
the fact that girls are afraid to say no. Often, I think guys don't
take no seriously--they think they don't really mean it. It's what
girls are supposed to say just like it is what parents are supposed
to say when their kid wants a cookie right before dinner. I think
this comes in part from not being raised to live mindfully. I think
it, in part, comes from the frequency with which parents say no to
a request off the cuff because they don't want to be bothered or
don't want to spoil their children. And then, when the child whines
and argues (as in why can't I) and the parent runs out of reasonble
things to say or just wants the kid to stop, they just say "Oh
OKAAAAY already!!!!!!!" If no is used sparingly, and only when there
is a real reason for it--including respecting the parents' boundaries-
-it carries much more meaning.
When I was in college, I was dating a guy and he wanted me to spend
the night. We were both tired, and I didn't want to drive home. I
told him clearly I did not want to have sex. He said ok we didn't
have to--we can jsut cuddle. I told him clearly, at least two more
times that I really meant it I did not want to have sex. He assured
me he was ok with that--I believed him. Later, he started pressuring
me to have sex. It wasn't because I was afraid to say no. I left
and never saw him again.
Mary
Mary Bianco
>From: "achisms5" <marydan@...>Why is it that a lot of people with boys raise them so much differently than
>I think the problems of guys not respecting girls' nos has more to do
>with them not being modeled respect for others in general more than
>the fact that girls are afraid to say no.
people with girls? I hear people say that boys are so much easier and they
are the same people who raise their girls with strict screaming rules and
let their boys go out and do whatever and whenever they please. They seem to
think that only the girls need to have the sex talk and they just hand the
boys some condoms. For the most part, I think those are the boys that have
no comprehension of how to treat a girl. Of course there are parents who do
the same with the girls too. Some of the girls my daughter knows at school
have no curfew and are out til all hours doing what we don't want our
daughters doing. It just doesn't occurr to these parents what could happen??
I'm dealing with a situation now where we actually had to get a restraining
order because a boy my daughter knows can't take no for an answer. My house
is wired with cameras and I stay up all night. The parents are totally
unconcerned. I want to smack them all!!!
Mary B.
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In a message dated 9/8/02 10:22:51 AM, mummyone24@... writes:
<< Why is it that a lot of people with boys raise them so much differently
than
people with girls?>>
I don't see that among unschooling families, and for the purposes of this
discussion, is that what we can or should limit it to?
<< I hear people say that boys are so much easier and they
are the same people who raise their girls with strict screaming rules and
let their boys go out and do whatever and whenever they please.>>
Just because my boys don't have to be home at a certain time doesn't mean
they didn't build up to that trust and privilege gradually by showing good
judgment about little things at younger ages.
<<They seem to
think that only the girls need to have the sex talk and they just hand the
boys some condoms. For the most part, I think those are the boys that have
no comprehension of how to treat a girl. >>
I grew up with LOTS of girls who never had the sex talk from their parents.
They were given some absolute and mysterious rules, like "Boys only want one
thing" (without telling them what that one thing was), and "Keep your clothes
on." Or "No, you're not old enough for car dates." Without more
information, lots of those kids figured out how to have sex with boys without
getting in a car or taking their clothes off, and technically they hadn't
broken their mom's arbitrary rules.
Growing up with all girls in our house (for within four years of age), I was
fully aware of warnings for girls and "freedoms" for boys, and all that.
Now, having teenaged boys (and their many teenaged-boy friends over so
much), I see girls who are safe and smart and I don't fear them, and I see
girls who are NOT safe, who are mean to boys, who use them in various ways,
and we had one come through our lives who will get out of her father's home
as soon as she can by getting pregnant. There is no other way out but for
him to throw her out. And I talked to a batch of boys about that and said BE
CAREFUL of G. She wants pregnancy, and SOMEone is going to be the father of
that child. I have told them more than once, when there was a trigger for
the conversation (not in a batch, but individually) that if a girl gets
pregnant, they're in it for life. They have no option not to be a father;
the question will be whether they are a good father or a really bad father,
the cause of that child's not having a father, or what. It's not 18 years,
it's LIFE.
And I've talked to them about the effect of changing a life by becoming
sexual. That once it starts it rarely stops, and so there's no hurry to that
life change.
Sandra
<< Why is it that a lot of people with boys raise them so much differently
than
people with girls?>>
I don't see that among unschooling families, and for the purposes of this
discussion, is that what we can or should limit it to?
<< I hear people say that boys are so much easier and they
are the same people who raise their girls with strict screaming rules and
let their boys go out and do whatever and whenever they please.>>
Just because my boys don't have to be home at a certain time doesn't mean
they didn't build up to that trust and privilege gradually by showing good
judgment about little things at younger ages.
<<They seem to
think that only the girls need to have the sex talk and they just hand the
boys some condoms. For the most part, I think those are the boys that have
no comprehension of how to treat a girl. >>
I grew up with LOTS of girls who never had the sex talk from their parents.
They were given some absolute and mysterious rules, like "Boys only want one
thing" (without telling them what that one thing was), and "Keep your clothes
on." Or "No, you're not old enough for car dates." Without more
information, lots of those kids figured out how to have sex with boys without
getting in a car or taking their clothes off, and technically they hadn't
broken their mom's arbitrary rules.
Growing up with all girls in our house (for within four years of age), I was
fully aware of warnings for girls and "freedoms" for boys, and all that.
Now, having teenaged boys (and their many teenaged-boy friends over so
much), I see girls who are safe and smart and I don't fear them, and I see
girls who are NOT safe, who are mean to boys, who use them in various ways,
and we had one come through our lives who will get out of her father's home
as soon as she can by getting pregnant. There is no other way out but for
him to throw her out. And I talked to a batch of boys about that and said BE
CAREFUL of G. She wants pregnancy, and SOMEone is going to be the father of
that child. I have told them more than once, when there was a trigger for
the conversation (not in a batch, but individually) that if a girl gets
pregnant, they're in it for life. They have no option not to be a father;
the question will be whether they are a good father or a really bad father,
the cause of that child's not having a father, or what. It's not 18 years,
it's LIFE.
And I've talked to them about the effect of changing a life by becoming
sexual. That once it starts it rarely stops, and so there's no hurry to that
life change.
Sandra