Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Intro - long (squabbles)
B & S Nowicke
Sandra - first I never said - "It's not my problem". I do not use the "It's not my problem" response - quite the contrary - I say we must "use our words to work it out" i.e., not react physically to one another - or be assaultive verbally.
I encourage, model and direct the children - in more appropriate ways of handling the problem presented to me, giving suggestions on a better way to handle the present dilemma - i.e., "How else could you express to her/him you do not like what x said/did?" or "Turning off the computer in the middle of the game is not OK! - How else could you have showed/told her you wanted a turn, didn't like the way they played the game/wanted to change games, etc" or "Hitting is not OK - you need to take some time to think how you could use your words to explain to him/her how you are feeling when he/she did ...."
When I say "I try to stay out of it" I mean I do not pass judgment on the argument or the parties involved (unless it is physical) - rather, I encourage them to talk out the problem, i.e., work out their difference and if necessary give them some time apart to think abt the problem until they can calmly discuss it. I am there - not in some distant place at this time - I am just not participating in the he did/she said part of things... The typical response of "But maaaa-om he did this or she did that" doesn't fly with me. I do believe that children and adults alike need to work out problems/differences by communicating - and sometimes we need a neutral party to help us to use our words to work things through in a calm and respectful manner. It does not benefit any of the children to have me take sides or to settle the issue for them. They need to know that although I hear what their complaint is - I can not solve every personal difference they have in life - instead I choose to equip them with the skills (and guidance until the skills are developed) to handle those challenges without losing it.
What I am surprised by is your statement
"That's one reason we don't have squabbles, is that squabbles aren't okay to have."
Squabbles arise from differences in individual approaches to a particular issue, situation or in the method - especially with kids, younger kids even more so. To not allow differences in opinion or approach is to further frustrate a situation - each child is a unique individual. What they must learn is how to express their individualism/desires without attacking another's. I don't see how one can have more than 1 child in a home and not have times when they are at each other - I actually have 6 kids in all - ranging from 24 yrs to 5 (the oldest 2 - 24 and 21 - living on their own/away at school) All 6 have always had differences eventhough they love each other dearly. A common problem between my now 21 and 8 yr old was that one day he was aloud in her room and aloud to touch certain things and another day in another mood he wasn't. She (21 then 16) had to learn inconsistency on her part was creating the reaction and intrusion on his part. 2 1/2 yr olds don't understand inconsistency but, he had to learn to ask before touching sisters stuff - even at 2. Both had to learn to use their words - calmly and respectfully to the best of their maturity level. Redirection for the younger and asking for help by the older were solutions that constantly had to be reinforced.
Btwn my 5 and 8 yo's I do expect them to be able to talk through their problems - I do not see how screaming, hitting, name calling or tearful accusations resolve anything and only in fact, serve to worsen a situation.
My goal as a parent is to equip my children with the necessary skills to be able to effectively communicate their opinions/wants/desires in intelligent and appropriate ways and to be able to resolve differences without making personal attacks on another. Do I stay out of the "he said/she said battles" - You bet I do! - I refuse to take sides when in my opinion neither are communicating effectively. Will I leave them to go on battling endlessly - absolutely not! Squabbles, battles or fights are halted as soon as they erupt. Will I resolve the issue for them - absolutely not! Even when it is clear that one child is in the wrong and the other has merely reacted to their wrong-ness I will not choose sides in the battle. I will tell them together -that the 1st wrong-doer's action was inappropriate and unacceptable and will help him/her to talk through what other options could have accomplished the expression of their feelings - without the fight. Using words to express their feelings is what I seek to get the "attacker" to do and at the same time to realize that a verbal or physical attack is not an effective or acceptable way to express feelings. I will also talk with the responder and ask how they could have handled the situation differently when confronted by the other - (Leave the room, seek out adult help, or sometimes even to ignore the other person, etc.) rather than launch a counter attack or enlist the aid of siblings in a counter attack.
Squabbles - or "differences of opinion with emotional strings" for the adult crowd, do happen -- and I believe that they happen in every household that has more than one person in it. It is how we are taught to deal with those times that will determine our personal success in life. If a child is taught that mommy or daddy will solve all their battles - they will never learn to resolve issues with others for themselves. They will however become either the bully or the emotional timebomb who stuffs all their feelings deep inside until one day they explode.
So again, I put my ponderance out there - How is it people never have squabbles in their homes?
Susan N.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I encourage, model and direct the children - in more appropriate ways of handling the problem presented to me, giving suggestions on a better way to handle the present dilemma - i.e., "How else could you express to her/him you do not like what x said/did?" or "Turning off the computer in the middle of the game is not OK! - How else could you have showed/told her you wanted a turn, didn't like the way they played the game/wanted to change games, etc" or "Hitting is not OK - you need to take some time to think how you could use your words to explain to him/her how you are feeling when he/she did ...."
When I say "I try to stay out of it" I mean I do not pass judgment on the argument or the parties involved (unless it is physical) - rather, I encourage them to talk out the problem, i.e., work out their difference and if necessary give them some time apart to think abt the problem until they can calmly discuss it. I am there - not in some distant place at this time - I am just not participating in the he did/she said part of things... The typical response of "But maaaa-om he did this or she did that" doesn't fly with me. I do believe that children and adults alike need to work out problems/differences by communicating - and sometimes we need a neutral party to help us to use our words to work things through in a calm and respectful manner. It does not benefit any of the children to have me take sides or to settle the issue for them. They need to know that although I hear what their complaint is - I can not solve every personal difference they have in life - instead I choose to equip them with the skills (and guidance until the skills are developed) to handle those challenges without losing it.
What I am surprised by is your statement
"That's one reason we don't have squabbles, is that squabbles aren't okay to have."
Squabbles arise from differences in individual approaches to a particular issue, situation or in the method - especially with kids, younger kids even more so. To not allow differences in opinion or approach is to further frustrate a situation - each child is a unique individual. What they must learn is how to express their individualism/desires without attacking another's. I don't see how one can have more than 1 child in a home and not have times when they are at each other - I actually have 6 kids in all - ranging from 24 yrs to 5 (the oldest 2 - 24 and 21 - living on their own/away at school) All 6 have always had differences eventhough they love each other dearly. A common problem between my now 21 and 8 yr old was that one day he was aloud in her room and aloud to touch certain things and another day in another mood he wasn't. She (21 then 16) had to learn inconsistency on her part was creating the reaction and intrusion on his part. 2 1/2 yr olds don't understand inconsistency but, he had to learn to ask before touching sisters stuff - even at 2. Both had to learn to use their words - calmly and respectfully to the best of their maturity level. Redirection for the younger and asking for help by the older were solutions that constantly had to be reinforced.
Btwn my 5 and 8 yo's I do expect them to be able to talk through their problems - I do not see how screaming, hitting, name calling or tearful accusations resolve anything and only in fact, serve to worsen a situation.
My goal as a parent is to equip my children with the necessary skills to be able to effectively communicate their opinions/wants/desires in intelligent and appropriate ways and to be able to resolve differences without making personal attacks on another. Do I stay out of the "he said/she said battles" - You bet I do! - I refuse to take sides when in my opinion neither are communicating effectively. Will I leave them to go on battling endlessly - absolutely not! Squabbles, battles or fights are halted as soon as they erupt. Will I resolve the issue for them - absolutely not! Even when it is clear that one child is in the wrong and the other has merely reacted to their wrong-ness I will not choose sides in the battle. I will tell them together -that the 1st wrong-doer's action was inappropriate and unacceptable and will help him/her to talk through what other options could have accomplished the expression of their feelings - without the fight. Using words to express their feelings is what I seek to get the "attacker" to do and at the same time to realize that a verbal or physical attack is not an effective or acceptable way to express feelings. I will also talk with the responder and ask how they could have handled the situation differently when confronted by the other - (Leave the room, seek out adult help, or sometimes even to ignore the other person, etc.) rather than launch a counter attack or enlist the aid of siblings in a counter attack.
Squabbles - or "differences of opinion with emotional strings" for the adult crowd, do happen -- and I believe that they happen in every household that has more than one person in it. It is how we are taught to deal with those times that will determine our personal success in life. If a child is taught that mommy or daddy will solve all their battles - they will never learn to resolve issues with others for themselves. They will however become either the bully or the emotional timebomb who stuffs all their feelings deep inside until one day they explode.
So again, I put my ponderance out there - How is it people never have squabbles in their homes?
Susan N.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 2:13:50 AM, snowicke@... writes:
<< It does not benefit any of the children to have me take sides or to settle
the issue for them. >>
If I or my children are ever assaulted, I hope the police and judicial system
don't have that attitude.
What if a child DID do something unfair or harmful or wrong to another? WHY
should a child, just by being born into a family, have to fend off and argue
with and deal with the agression of other children?
<<Sandra - first I never said - "It's not my problem". I do not use the
"It's not my problem" response - quite the contrary ->>
I'm talking about general issues, not one family. The discussion is part of
a larger and neverending discussion, it's not personal.
Some families DO say "that is not my problem" and "I let them work it out" is
a lesser version of that. Or can be a same version in kinder words.
-=-What I am surprised by is your statement
"That's one reason we don't have squabbles, is that squabbles aren't okay to
have."
-=-What they must learn is how to express their individualism/desires without
attacking another's. -=-
Well the I guess my kids learned that a long time ago. And they didn't make
it up themselves, they were advised, from youngest ages, to say what they
needed to say without being mean, to get help if it wasn't going well, and
not to just bicker about things when they COULD get help or could just walk
away a while.
-=-Even when it is clear that one child is in the wrong and the other has
merely reacted to their wrong-ness I will not choose sides in the battle. -=-
When one of my children seems in the wrong in ANY situation, I talk to that
child about why, what, who, and how to handle it better the next time. To
"not take sides" in such cases becomes blaming the victim.
-=-So again, I put my ponderance out there - How is it people never have
squabbles in their homes? -=-
Maybe by not accepting that they're inevitable, in our case.
People DO get grumpy, and there's no sense arguing with someone who's just
grouchy, hungry, tired. Better for the mom to isolate that person nicely,
while getting him food and letting him verbally unload some of the
frustration he's been building up while he was away from the house, or had
company, or was trying to do something difficult.
When the boys were younger and we had just moved, Kirby was hard to deal with
for a while. He doesn't like change. He was twelve and changing. His
brother was only 8, 9. Sometimes Kirby would lash our verbally or physically
and Marty just left the room, so the "squabble" ended before it really
started. If Marty had stayed and tried to reason or defend or justify, it
would have gotten worse every time.
Maybe the problem is our view of "squabble."
Sandra
<< It does not benefit any of the children to have me take sides or to settle
the issue for them. >>
If I or my children are ever assaulted, I hope the police and judicial system
don't have that attitude.
What if a child DID do something unfair or harmful or wrong to another? WHY
should a child, just by being born into a family, have to fend off and argue
with and deal with the agression of other children?
<<Sandra - first I never said - "It's not my problem". I do not use the
"It's not my problem" response - quite the contrary ->>
I'm talking about general issues, not one family. The discussion is part of
a larger and neverending discussion, it's not personal.
Some families DO say "that is not my problem" and "I let them work it out" is
a lesser version of that. Or can be a same version in kinder words.
-=-What I am surprised by is your statement
"That's one reason we don't have squabbles, is that squabbles aren't okay to
have."
-=-What they must learn is how to express their individualism/desires without
attacking another's. -=-
Well the I guess my kids learned that a long time ago. And they didn't make
it up themselves, they were advised, from youngest ages, to say what they
needed to say without being mean, to get help if it wasn't going well, and
not to just bicker about things when they COULD get help or could just walk
away a while.
-=-Even when it is clear that one child is in the wrong and the other has
merely reacted to their wrong-ness I will not choose sides in the battle. -=-
When one of my children seems in the wrong in ANY situation, I talk to that
child about why, what, who, and how to handle it better the next time. To
"not take sides" in such cases becomes blaming the victim.
-=-So again, I put my ponderance out there - How is it people never have
squabbles in their homes? -=-
Maybe by not accepting that they're inevitable, in our case.
People DO get grumpy, and there's no sense arguing with someone who's just
grouchy, hungry, tired. Better for the mom to isolate that person nicely,
while getting him food and letting him verbally unload some of the
frustration he's been building up while he was away from the house, or had
company, or was trying to do something difficult.
When the boys were younger and we had just moved, Kirby was hard to deal with
for a while. He doesn't like change. He was twelve and changing. His
brother was only 8, 9. Sometimes Kirby would lash our verbally or physically
and Marty just left the room, so the "squabble" ended before it really
started. If Marty had stayed and tried to reason or defend or justify, it
would have gotten worse every time.
Maybe the problem is our view of "squabble."
Sandra
Mary Bianco
Susan N.
I understand what I think you're saying about the whole squabble thing. One
might have to look at the word their choosing also when discussing what goes
on. I think you mean squabble as in disagreement yet with a little more
enthusiasm than would be a disagreement between husband and wife. (hopefully
anyway!)
I know when I speak of my 2 middle children I use the term fight. Which if I
think about it isn't really a fight, just a disagreement with some punch to
it. (that's not literal) Although I do have the occassional physical stuff
between them both too.
I honestly can't see where anyone with more than one child in the home,
without a large age difference between them, hasn't experienced a fight or
squabble between them. I would say I don't believe it if I was told so. Now
as the children get older, that's a different story. They do learn just like
most of us as adults learn what is acceptable or not.
My 2 middle ones are 13 months apart and it's been trying at times to come
up with what works and figure out what to do and what not to do. They are
now going on 7 and 8 and it has gotten so much better. And I did read the 2
books that someone suggested. Helped a little but honestly not much. Maybe
that was just me and I didn't get it. Read them twice.
All kids are different and I do believe a lot of it has to do with the
child's personality anyway. Some kids are just naturally more agreeable than
others. And one child is different from 2 and way differnt from 3 and so on.
I can't imagine dealing with 3 the same age when I see what can happen with
2 a year apart. My hat goes off to you Susan without knowing anything
else!!!
I also try to be there to handle things without picking sides and accusing.
My house is very big and the kids are all over. One will say she did it/he
did it and what do I know? Something isn't right! I try to handle the
situation depending on the circumstances which sometimes can seem to be
forever different.
Luckily the almost 17year old has never fought with any of them. Ah small
miracles. And also fortunate for me, the almost 2 yr old doesn't really
fight with any of them either except for the occasional grabby it's mine
thing she does.
What I would really like is to be able to come to this list with the next
problem between the two of them that frustrates me. To be able to ask for
suggestions and get a "Have you tried this or maybe this might work" instead
of an accusing you should never do this kind of thing.
We all have our own little wisdoms that we can learn from. I don't see
anyone as all knowing and perfect and it would be wonderful to be able to
share without harming.
Mary B
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I understand what I think you're saying about the whole squabble thing. One
might have to look at the word their choosing also when discussing what goes
on. I think you mean squabble as in disagreement yet with a little more
enthusiasm than would be a disagreement between husband and wife. (hopefully
anyway!)
I know when I speak of my 2 middle children I use the term fight. Which if I
think about it isn't really a fight, just a disagreement with some punch to
it. (that's not literal) Although I do have the occassional physical stuff
between them both too.
I honestly can't see where anyone with more than one child in the home,
without a large age difference between them, hasn't experienced a fight or
squabble between them. I would say I don't believe it if I was told so. Now
as the children get older, that's a different story. They do learn just like
most of us as adults learn what is acceptable or not.
My 2 middle ones are 13 months apart and it's been trying at times to come
up with what works and figure out what to do and what not to do. They are
now going on 7 and 8 and it has gotten so much better. And I did read the 2
books that someone suggested. Helped a little but honestly not much. Maybe
that was just me and I didn't get it. Read them twice.
All kids are different and I do believe a lot of it has to do with the
child's personality anyway. Some kids are just naturally more agreeable than
others. And one child is different from 2 and way differnt from 3 and so on.
I can't imagine dealing with 3 the same age when I see what can happen with
2 a year apart. My hat goes off to you Susan without knowing anything
else!!!
I also try to be there to handle things without picking sides and accusing.
My house is very big and the kids are all over. One will say she did it/he
did it and what do I know? Something isn't right! I try to handle the
situation depending on the circumstances which sometimes can seem to be
forever different.
Luckily the almost 17year old has never fought with any of them. Ah small
miracles. And also fortunate for me, the almost 2 yr old doesn't really
fight with any of them either except for the occasional grabby it's mine
thing she does.
What I would really like is to be able to come to this list with the next
problem between the two of them that frustrates me. To be able to ask for
suggestions and get a "Have you tried this or maybe this might work" instead
of an accusing you should never do this kind of thing.
We all have our own little wisdoms that we can learn from. I don't see
anyone as all knowing and perfect and it would be wonderful to be able to
share without harming.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
Mary Bianco
>When the boys were younger and we had just moved, Kirby was hard to dealSandra,
>with
>for a while. He doesn't like change. He was twelve and changing. His
>brother was only 8, 9. Sometimes Kirby would lash our verbally or
>physically
>and Marty just left the room, so the "squabble" ended before it really
>started. If Marty had stayed and tried to reason or defend or justify, it
>would have gotten worse every time.
So what would you do if Kirby would be physical, like just one smack and the
other wouldn't leave the room? Then it would happen again and again, not on
a daily basis but to see that the younger one would get hit before getting a
chance to leave and the older one didn't get keeping his hands to himself??
I know you're not saying this happened, I'm just asking what you think you
would have done if it did?
Mary B
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B & S Nowicke
A family squabble is far different from an assault in which the police are called in - let's not get too extreme here.
Remember, this is 3 - 5yo's and an 8yo I'm talking abt - do they sometimes resort to hitting - yep - do they call names - yep - do they sometimes yell or scream at each other -yep. It's not that they haven't been told from early on that these are not acceptable methods of "communication" - but they are still learning. Still learning to voice feelings and LISTEN to others feelings without turning things into a he said/she said attack.
No one said "stay in the squabble" - once I've ended it - we do discuss feelings, & then work through alternatives in behavior/attitude for the next time.
By reading yr post - one could jump in and say Marty was learning avoidance techniques and Kirby was learning his outbursts won him his way. But I'm sure you intervened in those circumstances and in doing so repeatedly equipped them to deal with their differences in a more respectful way. That's what I am doing. I don't take "sides" in the disagreement, (to put it more clearly, I don't get into the "excuses" as to why the problem arose in the 1st place) that is not to say that I will not and do not emphatically say that hitting, etc is NOT an OK way to deal with ones differences and then help them through acceptable methods for dealing with the issue. Lest I open another can of worms - I must admit that I do not get directly involved in every squabble - sometimes the squabble can be pre-empted by the mere reminder of "Use your words!" and the knowledge in their little heads that mom is listening. When they do work it out in those circumstances I applaud their efforts to reinforce the desirable behaviors.
Finally, I know, part of the issue in our house is that I have 3 kids w/ special issues (2 still at home) and triplets too - and they are identical - which in some regards compounds their need to "display" their uniqueness and of course challenges the 8 yo to "stand out" to be noticed (in public more so than at home). Do they enjoy their similarities and enjoy fooling others as to their identities - yes! Definitively. Does their brother enjoy that too yes, at times. But it does present a unique set of challenges. Uniqueness of our family dynamics aside, people of all ages have disagreements, squabbles, fights - whatever word you choose to use - I believe part of my job as a parent is to teach my kids how to handle those situations and to do that they need to be equipped to handle those differences. They (differences) will arise in other areas of their life as both kids & adults and I won't be there to resolve it for them - so they need to know how to express themselves and respect other's feelings and work through the differences - sometimes having to agree to disagree on an issue. But that said - it does not make it any easier when the 4 of them are at each other right now.
Part of me just wants to vent my frustration at these ongoing battles. The other part is curious how others deal with it - I'm seeking others experiences in this issue to see if there might be something I/we could adopt in our family that would help.
Susan N.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Remember, this is 3 - 5yo's and an 8yo I'm talking abt - do they sometimes resort to hitting - yep - do they call names - yep - do they sometimes yell or scream at each other -yep. It's not that they haven't been told from early on that these are not acceptable methods of "communication" - but they are still learning. Still learning to voice feelings and LISTEN to others feelings without turning things into a he said/she said attack.
No one said "stay in the squabble" - once I've ended it - we do discuss feelings, & then work through alternatives in behavior/attitude for the next time.
By reading yr post - one could jump in and say Marty was learning avoidance techniques and Kirby was learning his outbursts won him his way. But I'm sure you intervened in those circumstances and in doing so repeatedly equipped them to deal with their differences in a more respectful way. That's what I am doing. I don't take "sides" in the disagreement, (to put it more clearly, I don't get into the "excuses" as to why the problem arose in the 1st place) that is not to say that I will not and do not emphatically say that hitting, etc is NOT an OK way to deal with ones differences and then help them through acceptable methods for dealing with the issue. Lest I open another can of worms - I must admit that I do not get directly involved in every squabble - sometimes the squabble can be pre-empted by the mere reminder of "Use your words!" and the knowledge in their little heads that mom is listening. When they do work it out in those circumstances I applaud their efforts to reinforce the desirable behaviors.
Finally, I know, part of the issue in our house is that I have 3 kids w/ special issues (2 still at home) and triplets too - and they are identical - which in some regards compounds their need to "display" their uniqueness and of course challenges the 8 yo to "stand out" to be noticed (in public more so than at home). Do they enjoy their similarities and enjoy fooling others as to their identities - yes! Definitively. Does their brother enjoy that too yes, at times. But it does present a unique set of challenges. Uniqueness of our family dynamics aside, people of all ages have disagreements, squabbles, fights - whatever word you choose to use - I believe part of my job as a parent is to teach my kids how to handle those situations and to do that they need to be equipped to handle those differences. They (differences) will arise in other areas of their life as both kids & adults and I won't be there to resolve it for them - so they need to know how to express themselves and respect other's feelings and work through the differences - sometimes having to agree to disagree on an issue. But that said - it does not make it any easier when the 4 of them are at each other right now.
Part of me just wants to vent my frustration at these ongoing battles. The other part is curious how others deal with it - I'm seeking others experiences in this issue to see if there might be something I/we could adopt in our family that would help.
Susan N.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 12:33:00 PM, snowicke@... writes:
<< That's what I am doing. I don't take "sides" in the disagreement, (to put
it more clearly, I don't get into the "excuses" as to why the problem arose
in the 1st place) >>
But that's the most important part in helping them avoid getting to that
point in the future, and with other people.
<<By reading yr post - one could jump in and say Marty was learning
avoidance techniques and Kirby was learning his outbursts won him his way. >>
If his way was having Marty out of his room, yes. Often it was Marty
overstaying his welcome in Kirby's room. And Marty DID need to learn the
avoidance of staying until Kirby was snapping at him and threatening.
Avoiding bar fights is easily avoided by avoiding bars, not getting too
drunk, not insulting other people, not jumping up and bristling... Avoidance
is good.
<<A family squabble is far different from an assault in which the police are
called in - let's not get too extreme here.>>
<<A family squabble is far different from an assault in which the police are
called in - let's not get too extreme here.>>
Police are called in on domestic violence all the time.
It's not an extreme example. If my neighbors yelled at me like they yell at
each other sometimes (adults to kids, adults to other adults, kids to kids) I
would call the police.
I shared this with Marty. He said: "Kirby and I haven't gotten into a big
fight for two years, and that fight was from when I threw a rock through his
window. It was his 14th birthday." (Marty just said, which makes it over
two years ago). Marty was trying to throw it at the wall (second floor, from
the back yard) to make a noise so people would look out of Kirby's room, but
it hit the window and broke it, right where kids were playing video games and
visiting.
Sandra
<< That's what I am doing. I don't take "sides" in the disagreement, (to put
it more clearly, I don't get into the "excuses" as to why the problem arose
in the 1st place) >>
But that's the most important part in helping them avoid getting to that
point in the future, and with other people.
<<By reading yr post - one could jump in and say Marty was learning
avoidance techniques and Kirby was learning his outbursts won him his way. >>
If his way was having Marty out of his room, yes. Often it was Marty
overstaying his welcome in Kirby's room. And Marty DID need to learn the
avoidance of staying until Kirby was snapping at him and threatening.
Avoiding bar fights is easily avoided by avoiding bars, not getting too
drunk, not insulting other people, not jumping up and bristling... Avoidance
is good.
<<A family squabble is far different from an assault in which the police are
called in - let's not get too extreme here.>>
<<A family squabble is far different from an assault in which the police are
called in - let's not get too extreme here.>>
Police are called in on domestic violence all the time.
It's not an extreme example. If my neighbors yelled at me like they yell at
each other sometimes (adults to kids, adults to other adults, kids to kids) I
would call the police.
I shared this with Marty. He said: "Kirby and I haven't gotten into a big
fight for two years, and that fight was from when I threw a rock through his
window. It was his 14th birthday." (Marty just said, which makes it over
two years ago). Marty was trying to throw it at the wall (second floor, from
the back yard) to make a noise so people would look out of Kirby's room, but
it hit the window and broke it, right where kids were playing video games and
visiting.
Sandra
B & S Nowicke
Sandra said:
"But that's the most important part in helping them avoid getting to that point in the future, and with other people."
Do you mean taking sides is important or excuses are important? (Neither of which I opt for.) If it means taking sides - no that is not beneficial to anyone and in fact could be detrimental to a child to have their parent openly side against them with their siblings. Tell them they used that it was poor judgment on their part, or a hasty reaction, etc but to openly say He is right and you are wrong - I don't see any benefit in that one. I see it as equal to a personal attack. No one person is at full fault for a squabble - (referring to a squabble in my house not some extreme domestic violence case - geez Sandra let go of the extremes I'm talking abt kids! Did you call the cops for domestic violence when your son threw the rock through the window? I certainly hope not!)
If it's accepting excuses - I don't buy that one either. Excuses are simply a way of displacing responsibility - I did this because he said/did that - he made me do/say it. Arrgh - Victim Mentality 101 if I ever heard it. If I have a disagreement with someone - I take responsibility for my words, actions and reactions - I will teach my children to do the same. If not - they will grow up with an ugly victim mentality and a total lack of personal responsibility which I find that both highly offensive and irresponsible to raise a child that way.
Susan N.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"But that's the most important part in helping them avoid getting to that point in the future, and with other people."
Do you mean taking sides is important or excuses are important? (Neither of which I opt for.) If it means taking sides - no that is not beneficial to anyone and in fact could be detrimental to a child to have their parent openly side against them with their siblings. Tell them they used that it was poor judgment on their part, or a hasty reaction, etc but to openly say He is right and you are wrong - I don't see any benefit in that one. I see it as equal to a personal attack. No one person is at full fault for a squabble - (referring to a squabble in my house not some extreme domestic violence case - geez Sandra let go of the extremes I'm talking abt kids! Did you call the cops for domestic violence when your son threw the rock through the window? I certainly hope not!)
If it's accepting excuses - I don't buy that one either. Excuses are simply a way of displacing responsibility - I did this because he said/did that - he made me do/say it. Arrgh - Victim Mentality 101 if I ever heard it. If I have a disagreement with someone - I take responsibility for my words, actions and reactions - I will teach my children to do the same. If not - they will grow up with an ugly victim mentality and a total lack of personal responsibility which I find that both highly offensive and irresponsible to raise a child that way.
Susan N.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 5:48:19 PM, snowicke@... writes:
<< "But that's the most important part in helping them avoid getting to that
point in the future, and with other people."
Do you mean taking sides is important or excuses are important? >>
Without the orignal quote, it was hard to say. I had to go and find it.
-=-<< That's what I am doing. I don't take "sides" in the disagreement, (to
put
it more clearly, I don't get into the "excuses" as to why the problem arose
in the 1st place) >>-=-
-=-But that's the most important part in helping them avoid getting to that
point in the future, and with other people.-=-
Why the problem arose in the first place is the most important part in
helping them avoid getting to that point in the future.
If a problem is past the point they can resolve it, then to refer to their
explanations as "excuses" (WITH the quotes) seems to me to belittle their
communication with you.
If there is a problem between ANY two people, something was the original
problem, or the original misunderstanding. Without going to that point with
them, it's just dealing with tertiary issues. How they react when they're
really angry or feeling ignored by a sibling.
If a parent then chooses to blame both children equally and not listen to
"excuses" (not my quotes), the victim-child is now ignored by a sibling AND a
parent.
-=- If it means taking sides - no that is not beneficial to anyone and in
fact could be detrimental to a child to have their parent openly side against
them with their siblings. -=-
I disagree hugely. It is likely that one child is provoking the other. If
the provoker and the provokee are treated equally by the parent that is
patently and deeply unfaire is right and you are wrong - I don't see any
benefit in that one. I see it as equal to a personal attack.-=-
And I think to ignore a personal attack in the interest of "fairness" is
unfair.
-=-No one person is at full fault for a squabble - (referring to a squabble
in my house not some extreme domestic violence case - geez Sandra let go of
the extremes I'm talking abt kids! -=-
Minor domestic violence cases are not extreme. And squabbles left untended
can become minor domestic violence in a heartbeat. It's all on a continuum.
Just because one person is not at full fault doesn't mean they are both 50%
to blame.
<<Excuses are simply a way of displacing responsibility - I did this because
he said/did that - he made me do/say it. Arrgh - Victim Mentality 101 if I
ever heard it. If I have a disagreement with someone - I take responsibility
for my words, actions and reactions - I will teach my children to do the
same. If not - they will grow up with an ugly victim mentality and a total
lack of personal responsibility which I find that both highly offensive and
irresponsible to raise a child that way.
victim mentality and a total lack of personal responsibility.
Sounds as though you're saying I'm irresponsible and you're offended.
I have a sixteen year old boy and a thirteen year old boy. Neither has ever
been in a fight. Neither has ever been in a serious exchange of insults or
threats with anyone in or outside the house since puberty came upon them. In
fact, Kirby has diffused two situations which could have become fights--one
in public and one at a party. Marty was "bouncer" for a party one night and
steered some problem people gently toward other activities.
Kirby teaches karate to the beginning kid's class once a week (twice a week
lately, but that's temporary). Marty helps teach little children to ice
skate when we have skating parties (family or homeschool group). He ran the
Pokemon league for nearly two years, which never failed to involve
interpersonal management skills.
The both (and Holly, all three of my kids) have been known to diffuse other
people's newly-difficult situations with tricks they've learned at home.
They are responsible people.
And I feel like I'm being a responsible mom when I remember that they were
thrust together in this family by MY decisions, and so I'm responsible for
the safety of each of them and will defend each one from unfairness and
rudeness and negativity, whether from inside the family or out.
Sandra
<< "But that's the most important part in helping them avoid getting to that
point in the future, and with other people."
Do you mean taking sides is important or excuses are important? >>
Without the orignal quote, it was hard to say. I had to go and find it.
-=-<< That's what I am doing. I don't take "sides" in the disagreement, (to
put
it more clearly, I don't get into the "excuses" as to why the problem arose
in the 1st place) >>-=-
-=-But that's the most important part in helping them avoid getting to that
point in the future, and with other people.-=-
Why the problem arose in the first place is the most important part in
helping them avoid getting to that point in the future.
If a problem is past the point they can resolve it, then to refer to their
explanations as "excuses" (WITH the quotes) seems to me to belittle their
communication with you.
If there is a problem between ANY two people, something was the original
problem, or the original misunderstanding. Without going to that point with
them, it's just dealing with tertiary issues. How they react when they're
really angry or feeling ignored by a sibling.
If a parent then chooses to blame both children equally and not listen to
"excuses" (not my quotes), the victim-child is now ignored by a sibling AND a
parent.
-=- If it means taking sides - no that is not beneficial to anyone and in
fact could be detrimental to a child to have their parent openly side against
them with their siblings. -=-
I disagree hugely. It is likely that one child is provoking the other. If
the provoker and the provokee are treated equally by the parent that is
patently and deeply unfaire is right and you are wrong - I don't see any
benefit in that one. I see it as equal to a personal attack.-=-
And I think to ignore a personal attack in the interest of "fairness" is
unfair.
-=-No one person is at full fault for a squabble - (referring to a squabble
in my house not some extreme domestic violence case - geez Sandra let go of
the extremes I'm talking abt kids! -=-
Minor domestic violence cases are not extreme. And squabbles left untended
can become minor domestic violence in a heartbeat. It's all on a continuum.
Just because one person is not at full fault doesn't mean they are both 50%
to blame.
<<Excuses are simply a way of displacing responsibility - I did this because
he said/did that - he made me do/say it. Arrgh - Victim Mentality 101 if I
ever heard it. If I have a disagreement with someone - I take responsibility
for my words, actions and reactions - I will teach my children to do the
same. If not - they will grow up with an ugly victim mentality and a total
lack of personal responsibility which I find that both highly offensive and
irresponsible to raise a child that way.
>>Sounds as though you're saying my children must have grown up with an ugly
victim mentality and a total lack of personal responsibility.
Sounds as though you're saying I'm irresponsible and you're offended.
I have a sixteen year old boy and a thirteen year old boy. Neither has ever
been in a fight. Neither has ever been in a serious exchange of insults or
threats with anyone in or outside the house since puberty came upon them. In
fact, Kirby has diffused two situations which could have become fights--one
in public and one at a party. Marty was "bouncer" for a party one night and
steered some problem people gently toward other activities.
Kirby teaches karate to the beginning kid's class once a week (twice a week
lately, but that's temporary). Marty helps teach little children to ice
skate when we have skating parties (family or homeschool group). He ran the
Pokemon league for nearly two years, which never failed to involve
interpersonal management skills.
The both (and Holly, all three of my kids) have been known to diffuse other
people's newly-difficult situations with tricks they've learned at home.
They are responsible people.
And I feel like I'm being a responsible mom when I remember that they were
thrust together in this family by MY decisions, and so I'm responsible for
the safety of each of them and will defend each one from unfairness and
rudeness and negativity, whether from inside the family or out.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/2002 8:41:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Think about how a child would feel with no words to yet explain how that
feels (as the victim or "provokee").
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> -=- If it means taking sides - no that is not beneficial to anyone and inI've done this recently to adults. It IS wrong and unfair. I felt horrible.
> fact could be detrimental to a child to have their parent openly side
> against
> them with their siblings. -=-
>
> I disagree hugely. It is likely that one child is provoking the other. If
>
> the provoker and the provokee are treated equally by the parent that is
> patently and deeply unfaire is right and you are wrong - I don't see any
> benefit in that one. I see it as equal to a personal attack.-=-
>
> And I think to ignore a personal attack in the interest of "fairness" is
> unfair.
>
Think about how a child would feel with no words to yet explain how that
feels (as the victim or "provokee").
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 7:40:04 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< > the provoker and the provokee are treated equally by the parent that is
Sometimes, for some reason, my mailer and yahoo have a clash and a little bit
of the middle is just gone. Part of my quote was mixed in with the original.
Sorry. Too late to reconstruct it, so squint and take the intent if
possible...
Sandra
<< > the provoker and the provokee are treated equally by the parent that is
> patently and deeply unfaire is right and you are wrong - I don't see anyThis is all glitched up.
> benefit in that one. I see it as equal to a personal attack.-=-
>
> And I think to ignore a personal attack in the interest of "fairness" is
> unfair. >>
Sometimes, for some reason, my mailer and yahoo have a clash and a little bit
of the middle is just gone. Part of my quote was mixed in with the original.
Sorry. Too late to reconstruct it, so squint and take the intent if
possible...
Sandra
kayb85
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
they're into the Flat Traveler project. All 3 of them wanted to sit
on my lap. They were fighting over my lap, so I said then no one
gets my lap. Then they're hanging on me from every side, fighting by
pushing in front of each other's view. So I got up and said I can't
stand to have people fighting over me so they all sat on the couch
and I got up and got a kitchen chair and brought it in and sat in
front of them. Then they kept pushing into each other, complaining
because someone else got the most comfortable seat.
They fight SO bad that I can't read a book to more than one of them
at once very often. I have to take them each into their rooms
seperately and give them their own reading time. Then they fight
over who gets to read with me first.
I've talked to them about not being selfish and not trying to push in
front of other people. I've told them that I will make sure that
they will all get to see the pictures. I've tried switching who gets
to sit on my lap during the story, but then they fight over who sits
on which side of me and I just can't keep track of it. Even if I do
remember whose turn it is to sit on my lap and whose turn it is to
sit on the right or the left, they will still complain sometimes. Or
someone will bump someone else or spill their drink on someone else.
I spend so much time and get so stressed out keeping them civil
toward each other than I can barely get through a book. I've stopped
reading books because they wouldn't stop fighting long enough to
listen. I've told them how I feel they're being rude to me when I
sit down to read and they won't just sit down and listen.
So now we're just not reading as often anymore because I don't always
have time to read with each of them for as long as they want every
single day. Not with all the other stuff they want to do too.
Sheila
>disagreement, (to put
> In a message dated 9/6/02 12:33:00 PM, snowicke@c... writes:
>
> << That's what I am doing. I don't take "sides" in the
> it more clearly, I don't get into the "excuses" as to why theproblem arose
> in the 1st place) >>that
>
> But that's the most important part in helping them avoid getting to
> point in the future, and with other people.Tonight, they wanted me to read them the Flat Stanley book, since
they're into the Flat Traveler project. All 3 of them wanted to sit
on my lap. They were fighting over my lap, so I said then no one
gets my lap. Then they're hanging on me from every side, fighting by
pushing in front of each other's view. So I got up and said I can't
stand to have people fighting over me so they all sat on the couch
and I got up and got a kitchen chair and brought it in and sat in
front of them. Then they kept pushing into each other, complaining
because someone else got the most comfortable seat.
They fight SO bad that I can't read a book to more than one of them
at once very often. I have to take them each into their rooms
seperately and give them their own reading time. Then they fight
over who gets to read with me first.
I've talked to them about not being selfish and not trying to push in
front of other people. I've told them that I will make sure that
they will all get to see the pictures. I've tried switching who gets
to sit on my lap during the story, but then they fight over who sits
on which side of me and I just can't keep track of it. Even if I do
remember whose turn it is to sit on my lap and whose turn it is to
sit on the right or the left, they will still complain sometimes. Or
someone will bump someone else or spill their drink on someone else.
I spend so much time and get so stressed out keeping them civil
toward each other than I can barely get through a book. I've stopped
reading books because they wouldn't stop fighting long enough to
listen. I've told them how I feel they're being rude to me when I
sit down to read and they won't just sit down and listen.
So now we're just not reading as often anymore because I don't always
have time to read with each of them for as long as they want every
single day. Not with all the other stuff they want to do too.
Sheila
Fetteroll
on 9/6/02 7:34 PM, B & S Nowicke at snowicke@... wrote:
situation and talks about ways they could handle it differently next time.
If it's already a given in a home that being free from harm in the home is a
right then whether or not someone was justified in their actions isn't the
focus. The focus is on what happened and what part the child played in how
the incident ended up and what they could do differently next time.
Joyce
> Do you mean taking sides is important or excuses are important?What Sandra's saying is she helps her kids see the steps that led up to the
situation and talks about ways they could handle it differently next time.
If it's already a given in a home that being free from harm in the home is a
right then whether or not someone was justified in their actions isn't the
focus. The focus is on what happened and what part the child played in how
the incident ended up and what they could do differently next time.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 10:44:16 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< I've tried switching who gets
to sit on my lap during the story, but then they fight over who sits
on which side of me and I just can't keep track of it. Even if I do
remember whose turn it is to sit on my lap and whose turn it is to
sit on the right or the left, they will still complain sometimes. >>
With all three, one of the favorite positions (Marty, usually) was behind me,
leaning on by back, looking over my shoulder. He could feel my voice
resonating where he was leaning and he liked that.
We used scissors/paper/stone LOTS when all three were little for deciding who
got to pick where to sit and such. That was not a parental decision nor
something to fight about, and they all knew they'd get a chance next time.
For a year or so we had a rotation on who sat where in the car. The kids
kept good track of whose turn it was. Rides without all three kids weren't
part of the rotation.
Sandra
Sandra
<< I've tried switching who gets
to sit on my lap during the story, but then they fight over who sits
on which side of me and I just can't keep track of it. Even if I do
remember whose turn it is to sit on my lap and whose turn it is to
sit on the right or the left, they will still complain sometimes. >>
With all three, one of the favorite positions (Marty, usually) was behind me,
leaning on by back, looking over my shoulder. He could feel my voice
resonating where he was leaning and he liked that.
We used scissors/paper/stone LOTS when all three were little for deciding who
got to pick where to sit and such. That was not a parental decision nor
something to fight about, and they all knew they'd get a chance next time.
For a year or so we had a rotation on who sat where in the car. The kids
kept good track of whose turn it was. Rides without all three kids weren't
part of the rotation.
Sandra
Sandra