Pam Hartley

----------
>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2327
>Date: Thu, Sep 5, 2002, 11:20 AM
>

> No one said to frustrate the kids. But yes you can have the dessert you want
> when you want it and yes I will buy you this even though you don't really
> need it and yes you can stay up late if you want and yes you can go swimming
> even though it's thundering just aren't getting it in this house.

Do you have the choice to have the dessert you want when you want it? Do you
have the chance to buy something for yourself, even though you don't really
need it? Do you choose when to go to bed?

Any sane person, including a short one, can understand not doing something
immediately dangerous, so the last example doesn't really fit (like Sesame
Street: "One of these things is not like the others").

All the others you stated are exactly what DOES get it in this house, which
brings me to:

> That's
> hardly comparable to breaking someone's finger when they might break a bone
> someday anyway. I've seen plenty of kids who never get the no's and don't
> really like what I see. We all have them to deal with and if they are
> comparable to age, I don't see a problem with them at all.

My children definitely hear no. Brittany asked me last year, with deep
sorrow already in her eyes as she asked, "Mama, do Pokemon really exist?"
and I had to tell her that no, they are just cartoons and toys. And she
sighed and said, "I didn't think so."

Now that may be a cute little kid story, but that was real tragedy for her
at that time -- she would have loved nothing better than to be a Pokemon
trainer. I remember my sadness when I was a child and realized that my model
horses never would come to life. A stable of teeny tiny 12" living horses
was my fondest dream, but I had to accept it as a dream.

In this house, we try very hard to help every one of us do what we want to
do, long term and short term. The no's that come up for real reasons (an
honest lack of money at the time, the real danger involved, etc.) are taken
with a good deal of composure by our children, as they know they are not
arbitrary, and that if at all possible they are also temporary.

There is NOBODY who "never gets the no's", so that's not a real scenario.

Pam Hartley

Mary Bianco

>Any sane person, including a short one, can understand not doing something
>immediately dangerous, so the last example doesn't really fit (like Sesame
>Street: "One of these things is not like the others").

Okay my 2 year old is completely sane yet doesn't get at all why we need to
come in when the thunder storm hits or why she shouldn't be allowed on top
of the table and why she can't run across the street. So now she knows about
the thunder and all the rest but still would run across the street and tries
to get on the table and would still go out in the thunder if allowed. And
she'd still eat a bag of MM's if I let her and then I along with her would
suffer the consequences. I don't get the point. '

Mary B

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pdhartley2001

> Okay my 2 year old is completely sane yet doesn't get at all why
we need to
> come in when the thunder storm hits or why she shouldn't be
allowed on top
> of the table and why she can't run across the street. So now
she knows about
> the thunder and all the rest but still would run across the street
and tries
> to get on the table and would still go out in the thunder if
allowed. And
> she'd still eat a bag of MM's if I let her and then I along with her
would
> suffer the consequences. I don't get the point. '


The point is I don't say "no" if I can say yes and still have them
standing alive and reasonably healthy at the end. And I
especially tried hard not to say "no" to my two year olds! <g> Talk
about a recipe for disaster.

Your two year old doesn't understand that some things can hurt
her? It's not a lie to say, "We can't stay out in the lightning and
thunder because it might hurt us."

It isn't saying "no" to say, "Yes of COURSE we can run across the
street, grab Mommy's hand so you'll be safe and we'll both look
for the big cars."

It isn't saying "no" to say, "You want to stand on the table? Super!
Let me stand right here and watch and you know what, let me put
these pillows on the floor first".

Learning about the consequences of too many M&Ms is an
excellent way for a child to learn self-restraint, IMHO, and would
for me be well worth the consequences of a bit of clean up.

Sometimes, of course, the two year old cannot do what she
wants. Sometimes, I cannot do what I want. This is where real,
true, factual "no's" come up for all of us, as I said before.

Pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/5/02 3:20:26 PM, pamhartley@... writes:

<< Learning about the consequences of too many M&Ms is an
excellent way for a child to learn self-restraint, IMHO, and would
for me be well worth the consequences of a bit of clean up. >>

I like it when the learning is on the part of the parent who has always just
believed that too much candy makes you sick. It's one of those things that
has been said, and repeated, and threatened, and recited, but rarely proven.

And I myself have binged on candy many times and never gotten sick. I've
seen lots of people do it.

But my kids have never, ever binged on candy. Not at Easter, not at
Halloween, not at Christmas. Because candy was never measured or controlled
or glamorized, so they only eat it if they want it, and they see NO reason on
earth to eat one bite more than they want.

Sandra

zenmomma *

>>Okay my 2 year old is completely sane yet doesn't get at all why we need
>>to come in when the thunder storm hits or why she shouldn't be allowed on
>>top of the table and why she can't run across the street.>>

There are lots of ways to redirect a 2 year old. (Hey let's play in here for
awhile..or.. let's have a race across the floor instead of the table, it's
too wobbly up there.) And I'm assuming you don't leave your 2 year old
outside alone where she can run across the street without you. So that one's
kind of a moot point. And actually, come to think of it, Casey did climb on
a lot of tables. She was a very athletic and agile little 2 year old. Never
fell. Now she's a gymnast.

>>And she'd still eat a bag of MM's if I let her and then I along with her
>>would suffer the consequences.>>

What are the consequences of eating a bag of m&m's?

>>I don't get the point.>>

I think the point is treating your kids like another person rather than
someone to be taught some discipline. The discpline comes with the learning.
The learning doesn't have to originate from being told what you can't do. If
no comes up, so be it, but how much more joyful to see how many yesses you
can say in a day.

Life is good.
~Mary


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Mary Bianco

>The point is I don't say "no" if I can say yes and still have them
>standing alive and reasonably healthy at the end. And I
>especially tried hard not to say "no" to my two year olds! <g> Talk
>about a recipe for disaster.



Okay so I do see your point. I just do it differently. I don't have a
problem with saying no as long as it's not more than once in awhile. As long
as the no's don't overwhelm and come no where near the yes responses. But I
do say no, and probably more than what sound like some of you do. I just
don't think that's a problem. And I always follow up with a more definite
explanation after the no as in why it's a no.

And I won't let the 2 yr old eat the MM's. None of the other kids learned
that lesson the hard way and now they stop their sweets before it ever even
looks like too much. Hopefully this one will be just as reasonable!! I won't
put pillows on the floor so she can stand on the table and yes we run across
the street together and in from the storms.
So as much as we're different, we're also alike. It's just a matter of what
works for each of us and our own children.

Mary B

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Mary Bianco

<<There are lots of ways to redirect a 2 year old.>>

Oh believe me, I get this. I'm actually a very good mom.

<<And I'm assuming you don't leave your 2 year old
>outside alone where she can run across the street without you. So that
>one's
>kind of a moot point.>>

LOL! see above.


>What are the consequences of eating a bag of m&m's?


Some major diarrhea and a very sore butt.


Mary B

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Gerard Westenberg

<so they only eat it if they want it, and they see NO reason on earth to eat one bite more than they want.>

The same with my kids. I have seen my 19 yo, halfway though a piece of cheesecake , his favourite dessert, say "I've had enough" and just stop eating. No food , in his childhood, was forbidden or made into a treat so he, and his brothers, can just stop eating when they want. It took me years to learn how to do that with certain foods, as an adult..Leonie W.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/5/02 5:29:05 PM, mummyone24@... writes:

<< None of the other kids learned
that lesson the hard way and now they stop their sweets before it ever even
looks like too much. >>

"Learning that lesson the hard way" might be mythical.
If an old wive's tale says too much candy makes people sick,
but moms don't test it out,
then maybe there IS no "hard way."

At it's purest levels, unschooling involves trusting ourselves and our
children to learn. Learning isn't all about phonics and math facts. Very
little of learning about everything in the whole wide world is phonics or
arithmetic. Critical thinking, cause and effect, being analytical about what
and why and how--those things are more important to natural learning than any
one piece of information.

Sandra

zenmomma *

>>Oh believe me, I get this. I'm actually a very good mom.>>

I'm sure you are. :o) Bad or neglectful moms don't take the time to think
about this kind of stuff.

>>What are the consequences of eating a bag of m&m's?
>
>>Some major diarrhea and a very sore butt.>>

Is she allergic? Yuck. We've eaten lots of m&m's here without such awful
results.

Life is good.
~Mary


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Mary Bianco

>Is she allergic? Yuck. We've eaten lots of m&m's here without such awful
>results.



No not allergic but too much chocolate of any kind has that affect on her.
And regardless of what a wives tale it may be, we all found this out the
hard way.


Mary B

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In a message dated 9/5/2002 6:16:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> It's one of those things that
> has been said, and repeated, and threatened, and recited, but rarely proven

When I was about 4 or 5, I ate a whole bunch of flinstone
vitamins and threw them up all over my paper dolls. Sure it wasn't candy, but
they tasted like it (at least going down-LOL)
Collette



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill and Diane

For me the major consequence is that I'm happy and real easy to get
along with.

:-) Diane

>What are the consequences of eating a bag of m&m's?
>

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In a message dated 9/6/02 6:36:16 AM, cen46624@... writes:

<< For me the major consequence is that I'm happy and real easy to get
along with.

:-) Diane

>What are the consequences of eating a bag of m&m's? >>

For me, if they had almonds, I have a protein fix AND a chocolate fix.
But I eat them really slowly, melting the outside shell and then melting the
chocolate and then cleaning the almond and then breaking it in two. So if I
eat LOTS of them, it takes a long time.

ANY kind of eating too fast will give me a stomach ache, no matter what the
food.

My consequences on chocolate are that I don't want chocolate then for a while.

Sandra