unschooling/unjobbing?
Joel Hawthorne
This is rather rambling but I think the issues raised in it touch upon
each other.
I keep cringing when people talk about units and study modules.
I don't get it. Why would someone substitute artificial contrived
questions for real life?
I read a book by Laurens van der Post about the Kalahari Bushmen and how
they could bury a gourd of water and return to it months later after
huge windstorms had totally rearranged the terrain and find it. They
learned the land in such tiny detail and noticed things to which we
would be totally blind. Inuit have 8 (or maybe 2 dozen) words for
snow.
We are brainwashed about schooling. Learning is a natural bred in the
bone affair. We are learning creatures. What we decide to learn is
determined by our environments, our nurturing and our individual
natures. The love of learning is diminished by the efforts of people to
force people to learn. This "force" can be subtle and manipulative or
overt and heavy-handed.
It is as if people wouldn't want to know things if they weren't forced
to know them. I believe the general populations' dislike of learning
new things, their general provincialness, closed mindedness, passivity
is a direct result of schooling.
People that love learning do it in spite of school not because of it.
Schooling I think takes many forms in many cultures. There may be
things imperative to learn in a particular culture for survival. These
things are naturally learned, though some cultures may believe that you
must "teach" them in a ritualized manner.
The lack of faith in the developmental unfolding of children into whole
adults is very widespread. Yes sometime things go wrong but not
usually.
I start to wonder if the adults in children's lives don't have enough
interests of their own and wind up obsessed with their children's
lives. People are often trying to work out unresolved issues and
dilemmas from their own childhoods
through their children. Usually we aren't aware of these problematic
undercurrents.
Our love for our children sometimes blinds us. We think we must "do"
something other than live our lives, follow our interests, provide that
loving, nurturing, welcoming, enthusiastic, protective, nest that
provides a home for the heart.
I do think that the work ethic enters into this. The idea that maybe
just "being" is sufficient is very difficult for people to take in. We
must "work" at everything.
I think maybe people of an artistic bent understand this better. Art is
a passion which emerges from their core. Any "work" they do is demanded
by the art not something they feel obligated to do because it is "right"
to work.
The idea that we must work for everything seems to me to be a
distortion. A particularly western distortion which results in people
working all of the time to the detriment of the general welfare and the
quality of relationships between everyone.
Thoreau commented on when he was making notes in his notebooks how
people thought he was calculating his wages.
We really don't need any more lessons in "work". We need lessons in
"being". Reflection, revelation and perhaps reverence are a more
important three "R's".
Our mad consuming, appetite driven, never satiated society that we are
immersed within colors our "unschooling" efforts. That walk in the
neighborhood with the children seems much more important than "study".
The only study worth much is that which one chooses for oneself.
Everyone resists somebody else telling them, covertly or otherwise what
to do. We can enlist each others voluntary cooperation for tasks that
we are each persuaded are in our interest to do but covert manipulation
will always return to haunt us.
I am not being terribly clear but I know what I am trying to say. Does
anyone else I suppose is the question.
--
best wishes
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
each other.
I keep cringing when people talk about units and study modules.
I don't get it. Why would someone substitute artificial contrived
questions for real life?
I read a book by Laurens van der Post about the Kalahari Bushmen and how
they could bury a gourd of water and return to it months later after
huge windstorms had totally rearranged the terrain and find it. They
learned the land in such tiny detail and noticed things to which we
would be totally blind. Inuit have 8 (or maybe 2 dozen) words for
snow.
We are brainwashed about schooling. Learning is a natural bred in the
bone affair. We are learning creatures. What we decide to learn is
determined by our environments, our nurturing and our individual
natures. The love of learning is diminished by the efforts of people to
force people to learn. This "force" can be subtle and manipulative or
overt and heavy-handed.
It is as if people wouldn't want to know things if they weren't forced
to know them. I believe the general populations' dislike of learning
new things, their general provincialness, closed mindedness, passivity
is a direct result of schooling.
People that love learning do it in spite of school not because of it.
Schooling I think takes many forms in many cultures. There may be
things imperative to learn in a particular culture for survival. These
things are naturally learned, though some cultures may believe that you
must "teach" them in a ritualized manner.
The lack of faith in the developmental unfolding of children into whole
adults is very widespread. Yes sometime things go wrong but not
usually.
I start to wonder if the adults in children's lives don't have enough
interests of their own and wind up obsessed with their children's
lives. People are often trying to work out unresolved issues and
dilemmas from their own childhoods
through their children. Usually we aren't aware of these problematic
undercurrents.
Our love for our children sometimes blinds us. We think we must "do"
something other than live our lives, follow our interests, provide that
loving, nurturing, welcoming, enthusiastic, protective, nest that
provides a home for the heart.
I do think that the work ethic enters into this. The idea that maybe
just "being" is sufficient is very difficult for people to take in. We
must "work" at everything.
I think maybe people of an artistic bent understand this better. Art is
a passion which emerges from their core. Any "work" they do is demanded
by the art not something they feel obligated to do because it is "right"
to work.
The idea that we must work for everything seems to me to be a
distortion. A particularly western distortion which results in people
working all of the time to the detriment of the general welfare and the
quality of relationships between everyone.
Thoreau commented on when he was making notes in his notebooks how
people thought he was calculating his wages.
We really don't need any more lessons in "work". We need lessons in
"being". Reflection, revelation and perhaps reverence are a more
important three "R's".
Our mad consuming, appetite driven, never satiated society that we are
immersed within colors our "unschooling" efforts. That walk in the
neighborhood with the children seems much more important than "study".
The only study worth much is that which one chooses for oneself.
Everyone resists somebody else telling them, covertly or otherwise what
to do. We can enlist each others voluntary cooperation for tasks that
we are each persuaded are in our interest to do but covert manipulation
will always return to haunt us.
I am not being terribly clear but I know what I am trying to say. Does
anyone else I suppose is the question.
--
best wishes
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/99 3:46:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< I keep cringing when people talk about units and study modules.
I don't get it. Why would someone substitute artificial contrived
questions for real life? >>
I keep cringing when people talk about units and study modules.
IMHO thia happens when people are trying to figure out how to live again, it
is a bridge between school and real learning for some.
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< I keep cringing when people talk about units and study modules.
I don't get it. Why would someone substitute artificial contrived
questions for real life? >>
I keep cringing when people talk about units and study modules.
IMHO thia happens when people are trying to figure out how to live again, it
is a bridge between school and real learning for some.
Brown
Joel
Rambling it may be, but I really liked what you had to say. I have had
squirmy feelings about unit studies. In some ways they are better than some
other types of 'school' work but they always feel somewhat contrived to me.
When we read the 'Little House' books we managed to come up with enough
questions to keep us going interminably! The questions were ours, not
someone else's. The follow up activities (if you want to talk in schooly
terms) were what interested us, not someone else. It became relevant to us.
Not all books produce in depth questions and 'extention activities' and
that's okay too.
Some books or activities take us in directions that other people may never
think of. Some small thing triggers a line of thought and exploration that
may be only faintly related to the original experience.
For example, recently we visited a Gouda cheese making factory. This could
have triggered an interest in various aspects of cheese, but as the owners
were originally from Holland, it might have triggered an interest in that
country, or in why people emigrate from their home countries, or, or, or....
But the interest generated would have been relevant to us. A school class
visiting would have had a preset agenda. So would a family doing a unit
study. And how would those parents / teachers have coped with the outcome we
experienced - although my kids found the visit interesting, the only
follow-up activity they were interested in was buying some Gouda cheese and
pigging out on cheese and crackers!
And that fine with me - I don't expect either me or my kids to want to
follow up on everything. Nor do I expect us all to find the same things
fascinating. Nor do I want to have to have a preset agenda.
my 'head' beliefs, I do still struggle with the being / doing thing. I often
catch myself feeling guilty for just 'being', or for doing something just
for the fun / interest / joy of it instead of something 'useful'. And catch
myself criticising the kids for that too :-( Still, awareness is the first
step, and I'm working on it!
like doing this math/writing/art/music/whatever but you have to do it
because I say so', than to say 'we are going to have ever so much fun doing
this exciting unit study. Nonsense, of course it's fun, what do you mean,
you're not interested, this is fun.' It sometimes seems to me that kids
doing unit studies have an awful lot of pressure placed on them to enjoy
studying someone else's interests 'because you should be grateful, you could
be sitting down doing boring workbooks you know'. But maybe it's just a way
of sugaring the bitter medicine.
had my say anyway!
I'm trying to put together a ?newsletter? for a small group of homeschooling
families that are getting together for some activities, and I'm wanting to
try and promote some interesting discussions among the adults. Could I
publish your post in it please, as I feel it raising some interesting
questions that should stir them up a little (or even a lot)?
Carol
Rambling it may be, but I really liked what you had to say. I have had
squirmy feelings about unit studies. In some ways they are better than some
other types of 'school' work but they always feel somewhat contrived to me.
When we read the 'Little House' books we managed to come up with enough
questions to keep us going interminably! The questions were ours, not
someone else's. The follow up activities (if you want to talk in schooly
terms) were what interested us, not someone else. It became relevant to us.
Not all books produce in depth questions and 'extention activities' and
that's okay too.
Some books or activities take us in directions that other people may never
think of. Some small thing triggers a line of thought and exploration that
may be only faintly related to the original experience.
For example, recently we visited a Gouda cheese making factory. This could
have triggered an interest in various aspects of cheese, but as the owners
were originally from Holland, it might have triggered an interest in that
country, or in why people emigrate from their home countries, or, or, or....
But the interest generated would have been relevant to us. A school class
visiting would have had a preset agenda. So would a family doing a unit
study. And how would those parents / teachers have coped with the outcome we
experienced - although my kids found the visit interesting, the only
follow-up activity they were interested in was buying some Gouda cheese and
pigging out on cheese and crackers!
And that fine with me - I don't expect either me or my kids to want to
follow up on everything. Nor do I expect us all to find the same things
fascinating. Nor do I want to have to have a preset agenda.
> I do think that the work ethic enters into this. The idea that maybeI never thought of myself as having a strong work ethic <bg> but in spite of
> just "being" is sufficient is very difficult for people to take in. We
> must "work" at everything.
my 'head' beliefs, I do still struggle with the being / doing thing. I often
catch myself feeling guilty for just 'being', or for doing something just
for the fun / interest / joy of it instead of something 'useful'. And catch
myself criticising the kids for that too :-( Still, awareness is the first
step, and I'm working on it!
> Reflection, revelation and perhaps reverence are a moreOh yes, I like that :-)
> important three "R's".
> Everyone resists somebody else telling them, covertly or otherwise whatSometimes I think it is better to say to the kid 'I don't care whether you
> to do. We can enlist each others voluntary cooperation for tasks that
> we are each persuaded are in our interest to do but covert manipulation
> will always return to haunt us.
like doing this math/writing/art/music/whatever but you have to do it
because I say so', than to say 'we are going to have ever so much fun doing
this exciting unit study. Nonsense, of course it's fun, what do you mean,
you're not interested, this is fun.' It sometimes seems to me that kids
doing unit studies have an awful lot of pressure placed on them to enjoy
studying someone else's interests 'because you should be grateful, you could
be sitting down doing boring workbooks you know'. But maybe it's just a way
of sugaring the bitter medicine.
> I am not being terribly clear but I know what I am trying to say. DoesWell, who knows if I understood what you were trying to say <g>? But I've
> anyone else I suppose is the question.
had my say anyway!
I'm trying to put together a ?newsletter? for a small group of homeschooling
families that are getting together for some activities, and I'm wanting to
try and promote some interesting discussions among the adults. Could I
publish your post in it please, as I feel it raising some interesting
questions that should stir them up a little (or even a lot)?
Carol
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/99 3:46:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< The love of learning is diminished by the efforts of people to
force people to learn. This "force" can be subtle and manipulative or
overt and heavy-handed.
It is as if people wouldn't want to know things if they weren't forced
to know them. I believe the general populations' dislike of learning
new things, their general provincialness, closed mindedness, passivity
is a direct result of schooling.
People that love learning do it in spite of school not because of >>
Doesn't this all go together? we have forgotten how to learn because for
years it has been forced on us. We think that is learning and we don't like
it. Only when your sick enough of it do you develop the courage to try
something different. Hopefully during this phase one will stub a toe on real
life and look up grinning :). "Aha! So this is what I've forgotten" Sounds
silly but I like the idea.
I remember when everything excited me and I wanted to try many things.
Years later I was very much aware that I had lost some spark in my life and
myself. I think this may be it. I was going through the motions of living and
resenting most of it.
are not given the proper recognition, even if their gifted in their ability.
listen. To words such as yours and our children's. We cannot emerge from
where ever our lives have been and instantly know what to do. This too is a
learning experience. My own children are excellent teachers because they
still have their spirit intact and will not for a minute let me force them
into something they are not interested in. This works both ways, I see when
they are being compliant to manipulate me. We are all learning and although
some of it is painful, much is exciting. I feel the old wonder coming back
again.
Yes,... we are all still learning the words.
Laura
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< The love of learning is diminished by the efforts of people to
force people to learn. This "force" can be subtle and manipulative or
overt and heavy-handed.
It is as if people wouldn't want to know things if they weren't forced
to know them. I believe the general populations' dislike of learning
new things, their general provincialness, closed mindedness, passivity
is a direct result of schooling.
People that love learning do it in spite of school not because of >>
Doesn't this all go together? we have forgotten how to learn because for
years it has been forced on us. We think that is learning and we don't like
it. Only when your sick enough of it do you develop the courage to try
something different. Hopefully during this phase one will stub a toe on real
life and look up grinning :). "Aha! So this is what I've forgotten" Sounds
silly but I like the idea.
I remember when everything excited me and I wanted to try many things.
Years later I was very much aware that I had lost some spark in my life and
myself. I think this may be it. I was going through the motions of living and
resenting most of it.
>I think maybe people of an artistic bent understand this better.demanded
> Art is a passion which emerges from their core. Any "work" they do is
>by the art not something they feel obligated to do because it is "right"But in our schools art is not a top priority and those with an artistic bent
>to work.
are not given the proper recognition, even if their gifted in their ability.
>. Our mad consuming, appetite driven, never satiated society that we areThis is all true and we all learn it soon enough if we are willing to
>immersed within colors our "unschooling" efforts. That walk in the
>neighborhood with the children seems much more important than "study".
>The only study worth much is that which one chooses for oneself.
>Everyone resists somebody else telling them, covertly or otherwise what
>to do. We can enlist each others voluntary cooperation for tasks that
>we are each persuaded are in our interest to do but covert manipulation
>will always return to haunt us.
listen. To words such as yours and our children's. We cannot emerge from
where ever our lives have been and instantly know what to do. This too is a
learning experience. My own children are excellent teachers because they
still have their spirit intact and will not for a minute let me force them
into something they are not interested in. This works both ways, I see when
they are being compliant to manipulate me. We are all learning and although
some of it is painful, much is exciting. I feel the old wonder coming back
again.
>I am not being terribly clear but I know what I am trying to say. Does--
>anyone else I suppose is the question.
Yes,... we are all still learning the words.
Laura
The O'Donnells
At 12:54 PM 11/7/99 -0800, you wrote:
I very much appreciated your post and understand your way of looking at
this issue of utilizing units and study modules. My thought however is you
must never have had kids in ps. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Having had my oldest dd in ps for 4 years has devastated her desire to
learn. It took from July of '98 until March of '99 to see her pick
anything to do on her own. ANYTHING! Ooops, one exception - she did graph
her Halloween candy last year. (And from what I've heard I have had great
success with her moving toward unschooling - something like I could have
gone 4 years or more before seeing this. Yikes! ) Now part of this was my
own problem with letting go and relaxing. I, as I'm sure you do too, look
at my children's education as being extremely important. My state's laws
have basic requirements that I feel I must be sure are met in order to be
honest with them about our efforts at hsing. It is my belief that one day
my dd will be entirely leading her own education but I don't see it any
time soon. Maybe two years or so from now. I hope and pray.
As I mentioned, the Prairie Primer provides us with a springboard for when
they don't know what to do. (Now, I do see that my 6 yog would unschool in
an instant without a hitch - she only went to preschool - where I worked -
yet she is stifled somewhat by the transition with the older dd.) I have a
real problem with them sitting around doing nothing but watching TV,
tickling each other and doing crosstitch - although all can have great
educational benefits if chosen wisely (TV chosen wisely.) If and when they
choose to do something that can build their language arts or math skills -
I'm a happy camper and do my own thing. Or if they read about history or
do science projects. But when they get to the point of as I put it
"goofing off" then I feel the need to direct them a little. To me that
means giving them choices of things I find acceptable/educational. I know,
I know, everything is educational - but time is short and I do have a
responsibility to see that they don't waste theirs. Besides, they ask to
do the Little House books and activities as a matter of fact I have trouble
keeping up with them!
My desire would be that at say a high school level, my dds would be able to
choose what they study but that they would be diligent in pursuing these
interests, not just flitting about from one more or less useless subject to
another (somehow I know I'm going to catch it for this post :o). And that
by then they would be wise enough to realize there may be things out there
they NEED to pursue whether they WANT to or not to achieve their personal
goals. And that they do it themselves without compulsion.
Yes, the unit study is my crutch, my safety net and hers too as she was
taught what, how and when to learn anything in ps. I find it appalling. I
hate it! But I feel it necessary in the transition of ps to unschooling.
I tried deschooling off and on for several months last year only to find it
drove both she and I crazy. So I sought something that could be a
springboard so we could sleep at night. We've even gone back to "doing"
math several times a week - in several different ways not just text books
as I was totally uncomfortable with her not touching math at all.
We don't utilize everything in the unit study, we pick and choose according
to our interests (OK sometimes I see something I believe they REALLY need
to know, like "manners", and push a little :o) but, I'm much better at
letting it go when I see there is no real interest in a subject. The
Primer also may just say - "study the moon." Not how to study it or
exactly what to do with every activity (some do but relatively few - we
don't usually choose to do the more directed ones anyway.) So we can delve
in any way we want. For example, this week we are going to the woods to
look at fungi in the woods, perhaps draw a few if they are into it. The
Primer just said - study about fungi and lichens. I got a library book to
which they groaned and today we were in the woods cutting firewood and they
were fascinated with two samples of fungi they found. So it is not the
topic they object to it is the method - don't just sit us down with a book
Mom! But I do have a subtile hope that going out and looking around may
spike their interest enough to at least make the book worth looking through.
This is providing me with a gentle adjustment from my schooling experiences
as well. I hope it is also giving her a gentle adjustment as cold turkey
just wasn't working for either of us. I don't believe a child that is
worried they are not learning what all their ex-school friends are will be
free enough to learn on their own - my daughter fell into this box. She
still compares what she is learning with what her best friend in ps is
doing. About a month ago it set her off and she sought out how to read the
latitude and longitude markings on maps and globes - on her own! She
sought out a workbook on geography to accomplish it but she did it! I
didn't make her - she wanted to. To me that was thrilling.
Right now I see her adjustment level (cross stitch, read, and watch TV) as
still a little unacceptable. I'm THRILLED she is now reading because she
loves it and feel so thankful for that. But cross stitch is a pass time
and TV - well, don't get me started on that subject - I married a man that
studied cinematography (sp?) and his TV addiction drives me nuts - the kids
come by it honestly. Aren't pass times just for that - passing the time?
To me simply watching time pass is not useful. I'm not talking about time
to digest what they have been learning here I'm talking about it being the
main subject on their menus.
I am a part of a support group that has a lot of unschoolers in it. And
what I have seen is those that actually unschool (versus eclectic approach)
have all unschooled from day one and had learned a lot about unschooling
for years before they had to notify the schools of their intent to hs.
They had time to think it all through and become convinced. I on the other
hand had considered hsing before my dd went to ps but had never heard of
any other method than school-at-home Calvert style. I learned about
unschooling 2 months before we started hsing. It is taking a lot more time
than 2 months to change the thought patterns and habit patterns. Visiting
with teens that have unschooled their entire lives has been the main thing
that keeps me wanting to unschool.
I don't know if this makes sense to a hard core unschooler or not but I
really think it is a different situation to pull them out than it is to
keep them home from the start and KNOW you want to unschool to begin with.
I hope this helps you to understand why I would even entertain the thought
of a unit study approach even on a limited basis. Now, I'm all ears -
convince me to go back to cold turkey.
Ready to learn.
Laraine
>I keep cringing when people talk about units and study modules.Joel,
>
>I don't get it. Why would someone substitute artificial contrived
>questions for real life?
I very much appreciated your post and understand your way of looking at
this issue of utilizing units and study modules. My thought however is you
must never have had kids in ps. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Having had my oldest dd in ps for 4 years has devastated her desire to
learn. It took from July of '98 until March of '99 to see her pick
anything to do on her own. ANYTHING! Ooops, one exception - she did graph
her Halloween candy last year. (And from what I've heard I have had great
success with her moving toward unschooling - something like I could have
gone 4 years or more before seeing this. Yikes! ) Now part of this was my
own problem with letting go and relaxing. I, as I'm sure you do too, look
at my children's education as being extremely important. My state's laws
have basic requirements that I feel I must be sure are met in order to be
honest with them about our efforts at hsing. It is my belief that one day
my dd will be entirely leading her own education but I don't see it any
time soon. Maybe two years or so from now. I hope and pray.
As I mentioned, the Prairie Primer provides us with a springboard for when
they don't know what to do. (Now, I do see that my 6 yog would unschool in
an instant without a hitch - she only went to preschool - where I worked -
yet she is stifled somewhat by the transition with the older dd.) I have a
real problem with them sitting around doing nothing but watching TV,
tickling each other and doing crosstitch - although all can have great
educational benefits if chosen wisely (TV chosen wisely.) If and when they
choose to do something that can build their language arts or math skills -
I'm a happy camper and do my own thing. Or if they read about history or
do science projects. But when they get to the point of as I put it
"goofing off" then I feel the need to direct them a little. To me that
means giving them choices of things I find acceptable/educational. I know,
I know, everything is educational - but time is short and I do have a
responsibility to see that they don't waste theirs. Besides, they ask to
do the Little House books and activities as a matter of fact I have trouble
keeping up with them!
My desire would be that at say a high school level, my dds would be able to
choose what they study but that they would be diligent in pursuing these
interests, not just flitting about from one more or less useless subject to
another (somehow I know I'm going to catch it for this post :o). And that
by then they would be wise enough to realize there may be things out there
they NEED to pursue whether they WANT to or not to achieve their personal
goals. And that they do it themselves without compulsion.
Yes, the unit study is my crutch, my safety net and hers too as she was
taught what, how and when to learn anything in ps. I find it appalling. I
hate it! But I feel it necessary in the transition of ps to unschooling.
I tried deschooling off and on for several months last year only to find it
drove both she and I crazy. So I sought something that could be a
springboard so we could sleep at night. We've even gone back to "doing"
math several times a week - in several different ways not just text books
as I was totally uncomfortable with her not touching math at all.
We don't utilize everything in the unit study, we pick and choose according
to our interests (OK sometimes I see something I believe they REALLY need
to know, like "manners", and push a little :o) but, I'm much better at
letting it go when I see there is no real interest in a subject. The
Primer also may just say - "study the moon." Not how to study it or
exactly what to do with every activity (some do but relatively few - we
don't usually choose to do the more directed ones anyway.) So we can delve
in any way we want. For example, this week we are going to the woods to
look at fungi in the woods, perhaps draw a few if they are into it. The
Primer just said - study about fungi and lichens. I got a library book to
which they groaned and today we were in the woods cutting firewood and they
were fascinated with two samples of fungi they found. So it is not the
topic they object to it is the method - don't just sit us down with a book
Mom! But I do have a subtile hope that going out and looking around may
spike their interest enough to at least make the book worth looking through.
This is providing me with a gentle adjustment from my schooling experiences
as well. I hope it is also giving her a gentle adjustment as cold turkey
just wasn't working for either of us. I don't believe a child that is
worried they are not learning what all their ex-school friends are will be
free enough to learn on their own - my daughter fell into this box. She
still compares what she is learning with what her best friend in ps is
doing. About a month ago it set her off and she sought out how to read the
latitude and longitude markings on maps and globes - on her own! She
sought out a workbook on geography to accomplish it but she did it! I
didn't make her - she wanted to. To me that was thrilling.
Right now I see her adjustment level (cross stitch, read, and watch TV) as
still a little unacceptable. I'm THRILLED she is now reading because she
loves it and feel so thankful for that. But cross stitch is a pass time
and TV - well, don't get me started on that subject - I married a man that
studied cinematography (sp?) and his TV addiction drives me nuts - the kids
come by it honestly. Aren't pass times just for that - passing the time?
To me simply watching time pass is not useful. I'm not talking about time
to digest what they have been learning here I'm talking about it being the
main subject on their menus.
I am a part of a support group that has a lot of unschoolers in it. And
what I have seen is those that actually unschool (versus eclectic approach)
have all unschooled from day one and had learned a lot about unschooling
for years before they had to notify the schools of their intent to hs.
They had time to think it all through and become convinced. I on the other
hand had considered hsing before my dd went to ps but had never heard of
any other method than school-at-home Calvert style. I learned about
unschooling 2 months before we started hsing. It is taking a lot more time
than 2 months to change the thought patterns and habit patterns. Visiting
with teens that have unschooled their entire lives has been the main thing
that keeps me wanting to unschool.
I don't know if this makes sense to a hard core unschooler or not but I
really think it is a different situation to pull them out than it is to
keep them home from the start and KNOW you want to unschool to begin with.
I hope this helps you to understand why I would even entertain the thought
of a unit study approach even on a limited basis. Now, I'm all ears -
convince me to go back to cold turkey.
Ready to learn.
Laraine
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/99 7:00:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
praxis@... writes:
<< I learned about
unschooling 2 months before we started hsing. It is taking a lot more time
than 2 months to change the thought patterns and habit patterns. Visiting
with teens that have unschooled their entire lives has been the main thing
that keeps me wanting to unschool.
I don't know if this makes sense to a hard core unschooler or not but I
really think it is a different situation to pull them out than it is to
keep them home from the start and KNOW you want to unschool to begin with.
I hope this helps you to understand why I would even entertain the thought
of a unit study approach even on a limited basis. Now, I'm all ears -
convince me to go back to cold turkey.
but I the kids tend to panic and so does my husband. If his comfort level
gets too bad he will insist I snd them back. This is our transition period
and it;s one we all need. My 11 yro has been in school 5 yrs plus we hsd 1 yr
during this time. *yro hs been in 2 yrs plus preschool, he's doing better
than any of us. Hubby and I have our yrs in school combined with having
already had kids in school 20 years. Rome was not built in a day.
Laura
praxis@... writes:
<< I learned about
unschooling 2 months before we started hsing. It is taking a lot more time
than 2 months to change the thought patterns and habit patterns. Visiting
with teens that have unschooled their entire lives has been the main thing
that keeps me wanting to unschool.
I don't know if this makes sense to a hard core unschooler or not but I
really think it is a different situation to pull them out than it is to
keep them home from the start and KNOW you want to unschool to begin with.
I hope this helps you to understand why I would even entertain the thought
of a unit study approach even on a limited basis. Now, I'm all ears -
convince me to go back to cold turkey.
>>This is what I was trying to say also. I do try to direct a bit. I hate it
but I the kids tend to panic and so does my husband. If his comfort level
gets too bad he will insist I snd them back. This is our transition period
and it;s one we all need. My 11 yro has been in school 5 yrs plus we hsd 1 yr
during this time. *yro hs been in 2 yrs plus preschool, he's doing better
than any of us. Hubby and I have our yrs in school combined with having
already had kids in school 20 years. Rome was not built in a day.
Laura
The O'Donnells
At 11:48 AM 11/8/99 +1300, you wrote:
triggered how does that exploration follow? Do you go to the library and
get books, guide them to activities that relate, or just let it die if they
don't know how to pursue the interest? I see that the preset agenda really
limits things - even gets a person to quit looking for more after receiving
the sought after answer. Yet, I find that when my kids are just interested
in buying cheese and eating it with crackers (figuratively) I feel
frustrated, ie, nothing accomplished, nothing gained by the experience. So
what was the point, what was the profit of doing it at all?
anyway? :o) No one has yet to make that comment meaningful to me - just
"be".???????
And I agree - just tell them they are going to do XXXXX. But I know I
don't approach our unit studies this way. My dd wanted to study the ocean
- it was a direct request. So, I'm trying to help her do this. We have
made a posterboard of the ocean floor, put animals in it and studied some
of the animals. We will pursue it more through library books as long as
they are interested. But do you know what, she would do nothing about it
if I just looked at her and said "great honey - study the ocean!" So what
do you do differently when your child wants to study a subject?
I really would like some answers to these questions as they are the
principle things that seem to keep coming up for me. Things that greatly
limit our ability to "let go," "relax," and "be."
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
>From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>....although my kids found the visit interesting, the only
>Some books or activities take us in directions that other people may never
>think of. Some small thing triggers a line of thought and exploration that
>may be only faintly related to the original experience.
>follow-up activity they were interested in was buying some Gouda cheese andHehehehe, OK here's a question. When your kids have a line of thought
>pigging out on cheese and crackers!
>
>And that fine with me - I don't expect either me or my kids to want to
>follow up on everything. Nor do I expect us all to find the same things
>fascinating. Nor do I want to have to have a preset agenda.
triggered how does that exploration follow? Do you go to the library and
get books, guide them to activities that relate, or just let it die if they
don't know how to pursue the interest? I see that the preset agenda really
limits things - even gets a person to quit looking for more after receiving
the sought after answer. Yet, I find that when my kids are just interested
in buying cheese and eating it with crackers (figuratively) I feel
frustrated, ie, nothing accomplished, nothing gained by the experience. So
what was the point, what was the profit of doing it at all?
>I have more than a struggle with "being" - what the heck does that mean
>
>> I do think that the work ethic enters into this. The idea that maybe
>> just "being" is sufficient is very difficult for people to take in. We
>> must "work" at everything.
>
>I never thought of myself as having a strong work ethic <bg> but in spite of
>my 'head' beliefs, I do still struggle with the being / doing thing. I often
>catch myself feeling guilty for just 'being', or for doing something just
>for the fun / interest / joy of it instead of something 'useful'. And catch
>myself criticising the kids for that too :-( Still, awareness is the first
>step, and I'm working on it!
anyway? :o) No one has yet to make that comment meaningful to me - just
"be".???????
>OK, yes, I'm sure there are unit study users out there that do just this.
>Sometimes I think it is better to say to the kid 'I don't care whether you
>like doing this math/writing/art/music/whatever but you have to do it
>because I say so', than to say 'we are going to have ever so much fun doing
>this exciting unit study. Nonsense, of course it's fun, what do you mean,
>you're not interested, this is fun.' It sometimes seems to me that kids
>doing unit studies have an awful lot of pressure placed on them to enjoy
>studying someone else's interests 'because you should be grateful, you could
>be sitting down doing boring workbooks you know'. But maybe it's just a way
>of sugaring the bitter medicine.
And I agree - just tell them they are going to do XXXXX. But I know I
don't approach our unit studies this way. My dd wanted to study the ocean
- it was a direct request. So, I'm trying to help her do this. We have
made a posterboard of the ocean floor, put animals in it and studied some
of the animals. We will pursue it more through library books as long as
they are interested. But do you know what, she would do nothing about it
if I just looked at her and said "great honey - study the ocean!" So what
do you do differently when your child wants to study a subject?
I really would like some answers to these questions as they are the
principle things that seem to keep coming up for me. Things that greatly
limit our ability to "let go," "relax," and "be."
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
The O'Donnells
At 06:01 PM 11/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
That is what I've been trying to say! We didn't know what to do - me or
the kids! We are learning as we go, we are changing and adjusting, but
must remain peaceful in the process. Now, when the peace is disturbed here
at our house it is because we are becoming more independent learners and
are revolting against how we are doing what we are doing (our most recent
math adventures are easiest to site.) I even forsee a day when we will no
longer need the Prairie Primer even as a springboard. But until then, we
use it - it doesn't rule us. At least not completely. :o)
You really have my attention with the becoming compliant to manipulate you
statement -could you elaborate?
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
>From: Bonknit@...Laura,
>The only study worth much is that which one chooses for oneself.
>
>>Everyone resists somebody else telling them, covertly or otherwise what
>>to do. We can enlist each others voluntary cooperation for tasks that
>>we are each persuaded are in our interest to do but covert manipulation
>>will always return to haunt us.
>
> This is all true and we all learn it soon enough if we are willing to
>listen. To words such as yours and our children's. We cannot emerge from
>where ever our lives have been and instantly know what to do. This too is a
>learning experience. My own children are excellent teachers because they
>still have their spirit intact and will not for a minute let me force them
>into something they are not interested in. This works both ways, I see when
>they are being compliant to manipulate me. We are all learning and although
>some of it is painful, much is exciting. I feel the old wonder coming back
>again.
That is what I've been trying to say! We didn't know what to do - me or
the kids! We are learning as we go, we are changing and adjusting, but
must remain peaceful in the process. Now, when the peace is disturbed here
at our house it is because we are becoming more independent learners and
are revolting against how we are doing what we are doing (our most recent
math adventures are easiest to site.) I even forsee a day when we will no
longer need the Prairie Primer even as a springboard. But until then, we
use it - it doesn't rule us. At least not completely. :o)
You really have my attention with the becoming compliant to manipulate you
statement -could you elaborate?
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
John O. Andersen
Joel,
PhD coursework, I was finally able to discover a love of learning by getting
away from academe.
adulthood which we like to term "success."
John Andersen
> I read a book by Laurens van der Post about the Kalahari Bushmen and howMy wife has that book.
> they could bury a gourd of water and return to it months later after
> huge windstorms had totally rearranged the terrain and find it. They
> learned the land in such tiny detail and noticed things to which we
> would be totally blind. Inuit have 8 (or maybe 2 dozen) words for
> snow.
> We are brainwashed about schooling.I agree, but getting people to see that is very difficult.
> People that love learning do it in spite of school not because of it.That's the way I did it. After two masters degrees, work on a 3rd and some
PhD coursework, I was finally able to discover a love of learning by getting
away from academe.
> I start to wonder if the adults in children's lives don't have enoughMost definitely. And sadly, we try to raise them to accept the same boring
> interests of their own and wind up obsessed with their children's
> lives.
adulthood which we like to term "success."
> The idea that we must work for everything seems to me to be aHave you see the http://www.whywork.org website?
> distortion. A particularly western distortion which results in people
> working all of the time to the detriment of the general welfare and the
> quality of relationships between everyone.
John Andersen
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/07/1999 4:27:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
praxis@... writes:
<< Yet, I find that when my kids are just interested
in buying cheese and eating it with crackers (figuratively) I feel
frustrated, ie, nothing accomplished, nothing gained by the experience. So
what was the point, what was the profit of doing it at all? >>
How do you know that nothing was accomplished? You never know what
tidbit of information was stored away for future reference or use. I think
that something can always be gained by any experience even if its just
learning
hey I don't like cheese! Kids are sponges they soak up so much information
and come back at us with it weeks and months later. Maybe they accomplished
all they needed to know during the tour. The lesson doesn't have to expand
beyond that.
Kathy
praxis@... writes:
<< Yet, I find that when my kids are just interested
in buying cheese and eating it with crackers (figuratively) I feel
frustrated, ie, nothing accomplished, nothing gained by the experience. So
what was the point, what was the profit of doing it at all? >>
How do you know that nothing was accomplished? You never know what
tidbit of information was stored away for future reference or use. I think
that something can always be gained by any experience even if its just
learning
hey I don't like cheese! Kids are sponges they soak up so much information
and come back at us with it weeks and months later. Maybe they accomplished
all they needed to know during the tour. The lesson doesn't have to expand
beyond that.
Kathy
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/07/1999 4:27:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
praxis@... writes:
<< But do you know what, she would do nothing about it
if I just looked at her and said "great honey - study the ocean!" So what
do you do differently when your child wants to study a subject?
help my child study a subject she/he were interested in. I would find books,
draw pictures, make crafts, go to the beach/aquarium etc. Use a unit study,
if thats her interest. And when she says, mom I've had enough of studying
the ocean, or I don't like using this book then find something else or move
on.
Kathy
praxis@... writes:
<< But do you know what, she would do nothing about it
if I just looked at her and said "great honey - study the ocean!" So what
do you do differently when your child wants to study a subject?
>>woops meant to combine the last post together. I would most certainly
help my child study a subject she/he were interested in. I would find books,
draw pictures, make crafts, go to the beach/aquarium etc. Use a unit study,
if thats her interest. And when she says, mom I've had enough of studying
the ocean, or I don't like using this book then find something else or move
on.
Kathy
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/99 7:27:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
praxis@... writes:
<< You really have my attention with the becoming compliant to manipulate you
statement -could you elaborate? >>
It's almost always when they want something, especially the 11yro, he's
the instigator. Although it did not take long to catch on I still am not sure
how to handle this situation.
Out of the blue I have the most lovely children who are so good to each
other, make their beds and do several pages out of every workbook we own.LOL
Then they drop the bomb, they want something. A deck of Pokemon cards, a ride
to get Pokemon cards, rent videos,etc. They have even had me believing they
couldn't wait to go to the library, which by the way takes us past all the
above mentioned.
The hard part is that they are being wonderfully cooperative, as long as
they get their way. I am to the point where I told them I'd rather they do
nothing than to use me that way. I would not even object to giving them a
treat but I want it to all be up front. I really dislike the fact that they
do it first then I look like the meany if I refuse to "do my part". Any
thoughts on this?
Laura
praxis@... writes:
<< You really have my attention with the becoming compliant to manipulate you
statement -could you elaborate? >>
It's almost always when they want something, especially the 11yro, he's
the instigator. Although it did not take long to catch on I still am not sure
how to handle this situation.
Out of the blue I have the most lovely children who are so good to each
other, make their beds and do several pages out of every workbook we own.LOL
Then they drop the bomb, they want something. A deck of Pokemon cards, a ride
to get Pokemon cards, rent videos,etc. They have even had me believing they
couldn't wait to go to the library, which by the way takes us past all the
above mentioned.
The hard part is that they are being wonderfully cooperative, as long as
they get their way. I am to the point where I told them I'd rather they do
nothing than to use me that way. I would not even object to giving them a
treat but I want it to all be up front. I really dislike the fact that they
do it first then I look like the meany if I refuse to "do my part". Any
thoughts on this?
Laura
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/99 7:27:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
praxis@... writes:
<< But do you know what, she would do nothing about it
if I just looked at her and said "great honey - study the ocean!" So what
do you do differently when your child wants to study a subject?
to them and we talk a lot. They also draw and build things. Since I have been
reading to them they now request me to read. However I know them well enough
to know that this would have never happened if I had not initiated the
reading at first.
Mine would still sit all day in front of the TV if I let them. I cannot
do that as I am allergic to TV.LOL
Laura
praxis@... writes:
<< But do you know what, she would do nothing about it
if I just looked at her and said "great honey - study the ocean!" So what
do you do differently when your child wants to study a subject?
>>For the most part this is where mine are. At this point I am mostly reading
to them and we talk a lot. They also draw and build things. Since I have been
reading to them they now request me to read. However I know them well enough
to know that this would have never happened if I had not initiated the
reading at first.
Mine would still sit all day in front of the TV if I let them. I cannot
do that as I am allergic to TV.LOL
Laura
The O'Donnells
At 01:37 AM 11/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
the effect I'm mean I say "Yeah, and I like it!" I then explain to them
that I'm very proud of them for all the hard work they put in that day but
that there was no deal about me taking them anywhere or doing anything for
them to begin with so it is not reasonable that they expect it. And thus,
it will not happen. I'm getting better and better at being the "meany" in
these types of situations. I try to teach my kids that we don't do things
for others expecting anything in return unless it was prearranged so that
it was an ethical deal.
I was thinking of something totally different when I asked what you meant.
I thought you were saying they would comply with what you wanted them to do
so they could get you to do what they wanted academically. It just didn't
fit for me so I asked - had no idea it was leading to this conversation.
Much clearer now. Thanks!
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
>From: Bonknit@...I really dislike the fact that they
>
>In a message dated 11/7/99 7:27:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>praxis@... writes:
>
><< You really have my attention with the becoming compliant to manipulate you
> statement -could you elaborate? >>
>do it first then I look like the meany if I refuse to "do my part". AnyWell, my thought is this: When my kids look at mean and say something to
>thoughts on this?
the effect I'm mean I say "Yeah, and I like it!" I then explain to them
that I'm very proud of them for all the hard work they put in that day but
that there was no deal about me taking them anywhere or doing anything for
them to begin with so it is not reasonable that they expect it. And thus,
it will not happen. I'm getting better and better at being the "meany" in
these types of situations. I try to teach my kids that we don't do things
for others expecting anything in return unless it was prearranged so that
it was an ethical deal.
I was thinking of something totally different when I asked what you meant.
I thought you were saying they would comply with what you wanted them to do
so they could get you to do what they wanted academically. It just didn't
fit for me so I asked - had no idea it was leading to this conversation.
Much clearer now. Thanks!
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/99 1:30:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Natrlmama@... writes:
<< Kids are sponges they soak up so much information
and come back at us with it weeks and months later. Maybe they accomplished
all they needed to know during the tour. The lesson doesn't have to expand
beyond that. >>
OK here's a question. I have found that if I wait my kids learn things so
easily when they are ready that they struggled over at a younger age. So as
adults with our (hopefully) mature brains we ought to be whizzes. However
this is not the case, at times I think I'm even losing what I once knew. What
gives?
Laura
Natrlmama@... writes:
<< Kids are sponges they soak up so much information
and come back at us with it weeks and months later. Maybe they accomplished
all they needed to know during the tour. The lesson doesn't have to expand
beyond that. >>
OK here's a question. I have found that if I wait my kids learn things so
easily when they are ready that they struggled over at a younger age. So as
adults with our (hopefully) mature brains we ought to be whizzes. However
this is not the case, at times I think I'm even losing what I once knew. What
gives?
Laura
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/99 1:52:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
praxis@... writes:
<< I try to teach my kids that we don't do things
for others expecting anything in return unless it was prearranged so that
it was an ethical deal. >>
They are learning this also. I had a very long discussion once with 8yro who
wanted $5 for doing the yard trim. A really exorbitant price for his work,
plus I had to keep telling him "but I didn't ask you to do this or agree to
any price, so I'm not paying you". I'm not sure he gets it yet.
Laura
praxis@... writes:
<< I try to teach my kids that we don't do things
for others expecting anything in return unless it was prearranged so that
it was an ethical deal. >>
They are learning this also. I had a very long discussion once with 8yro who
wanted $5 for doing the yard trim. A really exorbitant price for his work,
plus I had to keep telling him "but I didn't ask you to do this or agree to
any price, so I'm not paying you". I'm not sure he gets it yet.
Laura
Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall
>How do you know that nothing was accomplished? You never know whatHear Hear!! Exactly what I was thinking, and just said as much to my DH.
>tidbit of information was stored away for future reference or use. I think
>that something can always be gained by any experience even if its just
>learning
>hey I don't like cheese! Kids are sponges they soak up so much information
>and come back at us with it weeks and months later. Maybe they accomplished
>all they needed to know during the tour. The lesson doesn't have to expand
>beyond that.
>
>Kathy
Nanci K.
Carolyn Talarr
Hi, I just have to say that as a former kid I really admire their
conspiratorial abilities! :)
a frustration to you. I don't mean to be minimizing it.
On another list there was a mom who had a foster kid and a younger kid that
she and the DH had actually made themselves (is that a natural child? I
find that term odd) and the foster kid would always put the
younger kid up to ask for things that he was clearly too young to want or
even know about. People suggested that that was because the foster kid
might have thought that his requests would not be taken as seriously. The
mom said she was going to talk with the foster kid and help him find more
direct ways of expressing his wants and would try to let him know that it
was o.k. to want things, that they wouldn't automatically say no.
::Treading very gently and just wondering, since it's driving you crazy:: Is
it possible that your kids don't think that they'd get their requests taken
seriously? Is there perhaps a past of saying "If you do [this] then you can
have [whatever]?" Or did you mention this very pattern in a past post and I
just missed it? Might it be worth talking with them about why they think
they have to do all this to get you to consider what they want? (or have
you already done this)
But there is a bright side...Who knows, maybe they're nascent chess masters!
:)
Carolyn
conspiratorial abilities! :)
> Out of the blue I have the most lovely children who are so good to eachown.LOL
>other, make their beds and do several pages out of every workbook we
>Then they drop the bomb, they want something. A deck of Pokemon cards, aride
>to get Pokemon cards, rent videos,etc. They have even had me believing theyThis is *brilliant* organization. :) But seriously, I know it's a pain and
>couldn't wait to go to the library, which by the way takes us past all the
>above mentioned.
a frustration to you. I don't mean to be minimizing it.
On another list there was a mom who had a foster kid and a younger kid that
she and the DH had actually made themselves (is that a natural child? I
find that term odd) and the foster kid would always put the
younger kid up to ask for things that he was clearly too young to want or
even know about. People suggested that that was because the foster kid
might have thought that his requests would not be taken as seriously. The
mom said she was going to talk with the foster kid and help him find more
direct ways of expressing his wants and would try to let him know that it
was o.k. to want things, that they wouldn't automatically say no.
::Treading very gently and just wondering, since it's driving you crazy:: Is
it possible that your kids don't think that they'd get their requests taken
seriously? Is there perhaps a past of saying "If you do [this] then you can
have [whatever]?" Or did you mention this very pattern in a past post and I
just missed it? Might it be worth talking with them about why they think
they have to do all this to get you to consider what they want? (or have
you already done this)
But there is a bright side...Who knows, maybe they're nascent chess masters!
:)
Carolyn
[email protected])
I have been lurking for several months, just enjoying the conversation,
but feel compelled to enter it now. Re: the children doing nothing more
than eating the cheese with crackers and you feel the whole experience
was not a learning one. I guess that is one of the areas I feel
differentiates UNschooling--why do you feel a need to determine what
constitutes a "learning experience" for _them_, why are you not enjoying
the cheese and crackers with them and enjoying the chance to observe
your own children at a peaceful moment, doing something pleasant,
involved with your own learning experience? Learning will come and you
will see it, but not when you are trying to be in control, or directing,
it, IMHO.
I was in your spot twenty-some years ago. I took my older two children
out of school and then was rather puzzled when they were not ecstatic to
do all these wonderful things _I_ put together for them. I never sent
the two younger ones. All four were extremely good at balking when I
tried to determine their lives. I like to say we evolved into
unschooling, with plenty of bumps along the way. Well, they are all
grown and parents in their own right now. One of my sons has not
decided if he will homeschool or not--his babies are two and 6 months.
The others are in active homeschooling families. Thank goodness for
John Holt and GWS and their constant assurance that children really can
and do learn what is important to them. I needed it. However, over the
years, as I learned to observe my children and learn from them, it all
came right. You are really not far at all from the point where they
will constantly "wow" you with the depths of information they will gain
in pursuit of a subject of their own desire. Hang in there and when you
feel stressed, RELAX and watch your children. They will lead you to
unschooling, if you will let them.
I never had much patience with bickering--still don't. Over the years,
I tried many creative approaches to managing it, like "Take it into
another room where I can't hear you. If I hear you, I will think you
are just bored and I will think of something for you to do. Trust me,
you will not like what I think of near as well as something you think of
yourself". That was somewhat successful because we lived in a very
small house at the time, thin walls, and it is hard to argue in
whispers! Another reasonably good one was, "this problem is between the
two of you and you will have to solve it, through discussion, on your
own. Negotiate til you reach an agreement you are both satisfied with
and let me know when you're finished. An agreement to disagree, respect
one another's separate views and right to do so, and to avoid each other
is perfectly acceptable". This last one works really well with my
grandchildren, who are a part of my day-to-day life, even the little
bitties. They have to sit together on the love seat, discuss their
problem, reach a solution, and let me know it is solved, before they can
rejoin the play.
And so now, after putting in my much more than two cents' worth, I have
to tell you that I will be going no-mail for two weeks while I go visit
my sister in Texas (I am in Oklahoma). This was not intentional to
prevent flack from this post; it has been planned for some time! I look
forward to joining you again, hearing your thoughts, and telling you
much, much more than you probably ever would want to know about my kids
and grandkids, all of whom are really simply incredible!
Sandi Myers
but feel compelled to enter it now. Re: the children doing nothing more
than eating the cheese with crackers and you feel the whole experience
was not a learning one. I guess that is one of the areas I feel
differentiates UNschooling--why do you feel a need to determine what
constitutes a "learning experience" for _them_, why are you not enjoying
the cheese and crackers with them and enjoying the chance to observe
your own children at a peaceful moment, doing something pleasant,
involved with your own learning experience? Learning will come and you
will see it, but not when you are trying to be in control, or directing,
it, IMHO.
I was in your spot twenty-some years ago. I took my older two children
out of school and then was rather puzzled when they were not ecstatic to
do all these wonderful things _I_ put together for them. I never sent
the two younger ones. All four were extremely good at balking when I
tried to determine their lives. I like to say we evolved into
unschooling, with plenty of bumps along the way. Well, they are all
grown and parents in their own right now. One of my sons has not
decided if he will homeschool or not--his babies are two and 6 months.
The others are in active homeschooling families. Thank goodness for
John Holt and GWS and their constant assurance that children really can
and do learn what is important to them. I needed it. However, over the
years, as I learned to observe my children and learn from them, it all
came right. You are really not far at all from the point where they
will constantly "wow" you with the depths of information they will gain
in pursuit of a subject of their own desire. Hang in there and when you
feel stressed, RELAX and watch your children. They will lead you to
unschooling, if you will let them.
I never had much patience with bickering--still don't. Over the years,
I tried many creative approaches to managing it, like "Take it into
another room where I can't hear you. If I hear you, I will think you
are just bored and I will think of something for you to do. Trust me,
you will not like what I think of near as well as something you think of
yourself". That was somewhat successful because we lived in a very
small house at the time, thin walls, and it is hard to argue in
whispers! Another reasonably good one was, "this problem is between the
two of you and you will have to solve it, through discussion, on your
own. Negotiate til you reach an agreement you are both satisfied with
and let me know when you're finished. An agreement to disagree, respect
one another's separate views and right to do so, and to avoid each other
is perfectly acceptable". This last one works really well with my
grandchildren, who are a part of my day-to-day life, even the little
bitties. They have to sit together on the love seat, discuss their
problem, reach a solution, and let me know it is solved, before they can
rejoin the play.
And so now, after putting in my much more than two cents' worth, I have
to tell you that I will be going no-mail for two weeks while I go visit
my sister in Texas (I am in Oklahoma). This was not intentional to
prevent flack from this post; it has been planned for some time! I look
forward to joining you again, hearing your thoughts, and telling you
much, much more than you probably ever would want to know about my kids
and grandkids, all of whom are really simply incredible!
Sandi Myers
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/99 10:41:51 PM, andersen@... writes:
<< we try to raise them to accept the same boring
adulthood which we like to term "success." >>
just last nite mdh and i were discussing what we want for our children, and
he kept mentioning wanting them to be successful. tho i pressed for a
definition of it, he didnt come up with it. in fact he may have acknowledged
that he wasnt sure. i think the best thing we can offer our children is
that unconditional love that all humans thrive on... anyway, dh seems so much
more centered on preparing our kids for being "successful" and (from knowing
him) he means that they wont be "deadbeats" and will be able make a good
living. i admitted to him that i have moved (in my lifetime) from the care
of a father (provider-wise) to him, and that i have never had the
responsibility of providing a living for myself, let alone a growing family.
this is a pressure that he feels and is real, and i am fortunate that he
takes that responsibility so seriously. on the other hand, i dont want him
to pass on the pressurized situation that he was under to perform well and be
successful just to please and perform. we are unique and created with a
purpose and can find that way more directly when not pressured to please and
perform for our parents. dh and i often see opposing sides to an issue and i
know we bless each other w/our differences... so i want us to continue to
discuss and refine because otherwise i lean towards not wanting him to spoil
my attempts and he probably feels the same way too sometimes!!
erin
<< we try to raise them to accept the same boring
adulthood which we like to term "success." >>
just last nite mdh and i were discussing what we want for our children, and
he kept mentioning wanting them to be successful. tho i pressed for a
definition of it, he didnt come up with it. in fact he may have acknowledged
that he wasnt sure. i think the best thing we can offer our children is
that unconditional love that all humans thrive on... anyway, dh seems so much
more centered on preparing our kids for being "successful" and (from knowing
him) he means that they wont be "deadbeats" and will be able make a good
living. i admitted to him that i have moved (in my lifetime) from the care
of a father (provider-wise) to him, and that i have never had the
responsibility of providing a living for myself, let alone a growing family.
this is a pressure that he feels and is real, and i am fortunate that he
takes that responsibility so seriously. on the other hand, i dont want him
to pass on the pressurized situation that he was under to perform well and be
successful just to please and perform. we are unique and created with a
purpose and can find that way more directly when not pressured to please and
perform for our parents. dh and i often see opposing sides to an issue and i
know we bless each other w/our differences... so i want us to continue to
discuss and refine because otherwise i lean towards not wanting him to spoil
my attempts and he probably feels the same way too sometimes!!
erin
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/99 2:46:52 PM, jhawthorne@... writes:
<< There may be
things imperative to learn in a particular culture for survival. These
things are naturally learned, though some cultures may believe that you
must "teach" them in a ritualized manner. >>
if you dont teach in a ritualized manner, you can teach by modeling, and
answering questions. so how do children learn to read naturally? it is not
necc for survival (food, clothing, shelter)-- also, don't we want for them
more than survival, rather; thriving, blossoming, reaching fullest
potential...
erin
<< There may be
things imperative to learn in a particular culture for survival. These
things are naturally learned, though some cultures may believe that you
must "teach" them in a ritualized manner. >>
if you dont teach in a ritualized manner, you can teach by modeling, and
answering questions. so how do children learn to read naturally? it is not
necc for survival (food, clothing, shelter)-- also, don't we want for them
more than survival, rather; thriving, blossoming, reaching fullest
potential...
erin
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/99 7:49:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
talarr@... writes:
<<
::Treading very gently and just wondering, since it's driving you crazy:: Is
it possible that your kids don't think that they'd get their requests taken
seriously? Is there perhaps a past of saying "If you do [this] then you can
have [whatever]?" Or did you mention this very pattern in a past post and I
just missed it? Might it be worth talking with them about why they think
they have to do all this to get you to consider what they want? (or have
you already done this)
asking for things has got to be as old as the hills. I was the oldest I
should know.
As far as treading gently don't worry I'm not offended. I have always
made it a point not to promise my kids anything that I can't deliver of
course in life sometimes things are out of our control so the promise may be
broken. Obviously if my car breaks down we can't go to a movie, etc.
The problem is that they don't need what they want. They are not deprived
children. They simply want everything they see. Especially anything Pokemon.
I think we have indulged them too often and now I have to figure out how much
is too much and how to turn it off.
Laura
talarr@... writes:
<<
::Treading very gently and just wondering, since it's driving you crazy:: Is
it possible that your kids don't think that they'd get their requests taken
seriously? Is there perhaps a past of saying "If you do [this] then you can
have [whatever]?" Or did you mention this very pattern in a past post and I
just missed it? Might it be worth talking with them about why they think
they have to do all this to get you to consider what they want? (or have
you already done this)
>>First I'd like to say as far as older kids putting younger ones up to
asking for things has got to be as old as the hills. I was the oldest I
should know.
As far as treading gently don't worry I'm not offended. I have always
made it a point not to promise my kids anything that I can't deliver of
course in life sometimes things are out of our control so the promise may be
broken. Obviously if my car breaks down we can't go to a movie, etc.
The problem is that they don't need what they want. They are not deprived
children. They simply want everything they see. Especially anything Pokemon.
I think we have indulged them too often and now I have to figure out how much
is too much and how to turn it off.
Laura
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/99 1:08:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, MORELFAM@...
writes:
<< so i want us to continue to
discuss and refine because otherwise i lean towards not wanting him to spoil
my attempts and he probably feels the same way too sometimes!!
erin >>
I think my dh and I do the same thing. OTOH our older boys are now at an
age when they are leaving home, I am seeing first hand how hard it is for
them to at least support themselves. We did not hs these boys and I wonder if
the difficulty they have is a result of school, something we did, or just a
natural occurrence one must go through on the way to adulthood.
I know I can't prevent every hardship in life but I would sure like to
see the last 2 be more prepared to go out on their own. I see so many young
people we know who don't have a clue what they want to do or if they do, how
to do it.
Laura
writes:
<< so i want us to continue to
discuss and refine because otherwise i lean towards not wanting him to spoil
my attempts and he probably feels the same way too sometimes!!
erin >>
I think my dh and I do the same thing. OTOH our older boys are now at an
age when they are leaving home, I am seeing first hand how hard it is for
them to at least support themselves. We did not hs these boys and I wonder if
the difficulty they have is a result of school, something we did, or just a
natural occurrence one must go through on the way to adulthood.
I know I can't prevent every hardship in life but I would sure like to
see the last 2 be more prepared to go out on their own. I see so many young
people we know who don't have a clue what they want to do or if they do, how
to do it.
Laura
[email protected]
>>>if you dont teach in a ritualized manner, you can teach by modeling,and answering questions. so how do children learn to read naturally? it
is not necc for survival (food, clothing, shelter)-- also, don't we want
for them more than survival, rather; thriving, blossoming, reaching
fullest potential...>>>
Maybe they would naturally thrive, blossom, and reach full potential if
there were lots of models for this in their world?
Mary Ellen
Neglect Not The Gift That Is In Thee
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Carolyn Talarr
>Ha--I was the oldest in my family and we didn't have a good enough family
> First I'd like to say as far as older kids putting younger ones up to
>asking for things has got to be as old as the hills. I was the oldest I
>should know.
structure, I guess, for my brother and me to be conspiring together like
that...
> As far as treading gently don't worry I'm not offended.O.K., good--thanks for saying that.
They are not deprived
>children.I hope you don't think I implied that they were.
Your story just reminded me of that other situation so I thought I'd mention
it if it would be any use at all. Never mind! :)
Carolyn
The O'Donnells
At 06:52 AM 11/8/99 -0600, you wrote:
question, and I had to think about this a while, why couldn't I enjoy the
cheese and crackers with them...." I do enjoy those times, yet, when we
have gone on a field trip that our support group sets up that I am sure
they will love, it even ties right into what we are doing, etc. And they
respond this way, I keep asking myself "I thought they were interested in
this? Why are they so blaza?" It makes no sense to me. When they are
excited about something, trust me, you know it and know it and know it for
hours at a time. So this makes me question the interest led ideology.
Clear as mud?
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
>From: MyersSandi@... (Sandi Myers)Hmmm, kind of like a watched pot never boils eh? In answer to your
>why do you feel a need to determine what
>constitutes a "learning experience" for _them_, why are you not enjoying
>the cheese and crackers with them and enjoying the chance to observe
>your own children at a peaceful moment, doing something pleasant,
>involved with your own learning experience? Learning will come and you
>will see it, but not when you are trying to be in control, or directing,
>it, IMHO.
question, and I had to think about this a while, why couldn't I enjoy the
cheese and crackers with them...." I do enjoy those times, yet, when we
have gone on a field trip that our support group sets up that I am sure
they will love, it even ties right into what we are doing, etc. And they
respond this way, I keep asking myself "I thought they were interested in
this? Why are they so blaza?" It makes no sense to me. When they are
excited about something, trust me, you know it and know it and know it for
hours at a time. So this makes me question the interest led ideology.
Clear as mud?
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
John O. Andersen
Sandi,
I really enjoyed your post. We need more people like you in this
forum--people who can look on this whole undertaking with the perspective of
years of experience.
John Andersen
I really enjoyed your post. We need more people like you in this
forum--people who can look on this whole undertaking with the perspective of
years of experience.
John Andersen
Lisa Bugg
--I do enjoy those times, yet, when we
trip set up by someone else and attended by a whole host of people? Did
their interest lead them to ask you to set up a field trip with the support
group? I'm serious. Remember leading isn't just about choosing the topic
and having someone else direct activities within the topic.
Now to confuse matters, it can sometimes work that way. My kids have said
what about _____ and I've said well, we can do _____and ____ or _____. Then
we go from there. But I never expect just because we have set something up
that they,are even I, will love it. The mix of people there, the weather,
what we ate, who fought with whom and how close to the trip, ALL of these
things have an effect. If we get somewhere and it's boring or not what we
expected we make the best of it can escape as soon as we are able. ;)
Now here's another kicker, being interested in something does not mean we
always want to dive into the topic and learn tons about it. Even kids have
surface interests, something will pique their curosity, after some
reflection/thinking time it's time to move on, until life brings that topic
up again itself.
You can't predict and plan too much learning when you respect the cycles of
the children. You can only be there to answer questions, give your opinion
and help when requested. It can feel very chaotic. Unless you are blessed
with a child who loves to plan and carry out plans! I've heard they make
them like that somewhere. <G>
Lisa
> have gone on a field trip that our support group sets up that I am sureI'm unclear why you would expect visual and vocal excitment about a field
> they will love, it even ties right into what we are doing, etc. And they
> respond this way, I keep asking myself "I thought they were interested in
> this? Why are they so blaza?" It makes no sense to me. When they are
> excited about something, trust me, you know it and know it and know it for
> hours at a time. So this makes me question the interest led ideology.
> Clear as mud?
>
>
trip set up by someone else and attended by a whole host of people? Did
their interest lead them to ask you to set up a field trip with the support
group? I'm serious. Remember leading isn't just about choosing the topic
and having someone else direct activities within the topic.
Now to confuse matters, it can sometimes work that way. My kids have said
what about _____ and I've said well, we can do _____and ____ or _____. Then
we go from there. But I never expect just because we have set something up
that they,are even I, will love it. The mix of people there, the weather,
what we ate, who fought with whom and how close to the trip, ALL of these
things have an effect. If we get somewhere and it's boring or not what we
expected we make the best of it can escape as soon as we are able. ;)
Now here's another kicker, being interested in something does not mean we
always want to dive into the topic and learn tons about it. Even kids have
surface interests, something will pique their curosity, after some
reflection/thinking time it's time to move on, until life brings that topic
up again itself.
You can't predict and plan too much learning when you respect the cycles of
the children. You can only be there to answer questions, give your opinion
and help when requested. It can feel very chaotic. Unless you are blessed
with a child who loves to plan and carry out plans! I've heard they make
them like that somewhere. <G>
Lisa
A. Yates
> If I hear you, I will think you are just bored and I will think ofThis is the greatest idea. I've not come up with that one, but am going to
> something for you to do. Trust me,
> you will not like what I think of near as well as something you think of
> yourself".
try it.
Probably sooner than I like... :)
Ann
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/9/99 12:40:52 AM, MyersSandi@... writes:
<< Well, they are all
grown and parents in their own right now. >>
sandi, how have your children found facing making a living as grown
responsible parents? is following their interests working for them? or have
they had to turn toward the mainstream regular path of college, resumes,
jobsearch, etc.? i would love some more examples of "successful" unschooled
grown up kids....
thanks ahead...
erin
<< Well, they are all
grown and parents in their own right now. >>
sandi, how have your children found facing making a living as grown
responsible parents? is following their interests working for them? or have
they had to turn toward the mainstream regular path of college, resumes,
jobsearch, etc.? i would love some more examples of "successful" unschooled
grown up kids....
thanks ahead...
erin