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In a message dated 9/3/02 8:08:43 AM Central Daylight Time,
zenmomma@... writes:


> How about if next time he just plays with the coins and makes piles that add
> up to $1? That's how Casey started understanding it. With the amounts Moly
> had, her Dad could make 1 pile with 4 quarters, 1 pile with 3 quarters 2
> dimes and a nickel, 1 pile with 3 dimes 14 nickels, one pile with 100
> pennies, and one with the leftovers of 3 nickels and 43 pennies. The
> dollars
> are then easy to count up and the leftovers aren't nearly so overwhelming.
> No big numbers or carrying. Just counting up the money to see how much
> you've got to spend. As you said, though, it's better if it's not a lesson,
> and if Moly was interested in playing with the coins too. :o)
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary

LOL! But it couldn't be that easy, now could it? <veg>
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 9/3/2002 3:56:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, Dnowens@...
writes:
>
> Dear Robin,
> Yes, you probably will be the one doing the reading. That's okay. I do
> wonder
> about these "conditions" though. The one thing about unschooling I have
> tried
> to stress to Darin is that the kids will learn better this way (as opposed
> to
> the rigors of a ps curriculum.) but for him not to expect them to pick up a
>
> math book or ask for a history book. He says he understands, but I don't
> think he does..............
> I have tried to get him to read books on the subject, then I tried to get
> him
> to "Just read this chapter honey!" then I tried reading whatever paragraph
> had just struck me as an extraordinarily, eye-opening, what ever idea I
> thought just might help him *get it*. I'm going to try tapes next. He likes
>
> books on tape so maybe this will work! Someone else telling him what I have
>
> been saying all along, in their words. I think, over the years, he has come
>
> to accept it though. He knows the kids are smart. He is just so impressed
> with the way Moly had taken to reading, and is always asking about what she
>
> is reading. But I am sure if there were worksheets with big gold stars, all
>
> over the fridge, he would be more comfortable. Marrying me has definitely
> put
> Darin outside his comfort zone! <g>
>
> My best advice is, be gentle with it. For many people the idea of
> unschooling
> takes time.......
> Good Luck!
> ~Nancy
>
> Thanks, Nancy. Your husband sounds a bit like mine. You know, he just
wants his children to be okay and knows the way he knows. Fortunately, the
learning objectives are vague enough the first few yeaers...and I'm trying to
be aware of open moments like when my daughter was all excited about a new
video coming out on a specific date and we talked about calenders and bought
a calender and put the date in. If she's willing, I thought we might plan
our week together. If not, I'll plan on my calender in her presence. So the
"list" is in my mind and hopefully the "pressure" will be mine, not hers. I
just cannot see forcing a child to learn something for the sake of making an
adult feel... whatever, so there's my pressure....hopefully by the time the
objectives list gets more specific, we will be in a different place ( or
maybe the CAT scores....a standardized test is required by VA as proof of
learning ) will become sufficient in and of itself. Just wish the pressure
wasn't there....and hope it doesn't spill over. My husband has gone along
with alot of things outside his comfort zone becasue of my beliefs...and I'm
grateful for that. Just wish.......
Robin


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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/02 11:52:36 AM Central Daylight Time, robin9700@...
writes:


> My husband has gone along
> with alot of things outside his comfort zone becasue of my beliefs...and
> I'm
> grateful for that. Just wish.......
> Robin
>

Yeah, I know.
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/03/2002 12:52:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
robin9700@... writes:


> maybe the CAT scores....a standardized test is required by VA as proof of
> learning ) will become sufficient in and of itself.

Robin,
Testing is not the only way to demonstrate achievement in VA. In
addition, your child/children can be evaluated by "someone acceptable to your
ps system" or you can provide a portfolio.
Admittedly this is a stressor for me also. The past two years my
children have taken the SAT. They hate it. I didn't know an evaluator, so I
took the easy way out (for me only). I have yet to find an evaluator, but I
plan to present the question to the VA Eclectic list that we both participate
on. My children hate testing, especially Eric. I do also. There is an
alternative; I just have to put forth a more concerted effort to find an
unschooling friendly evaluator.

Ginny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/2002 3:26:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, GDobes@...
writes:
> Testing is not the only way to demonstrate achievement in VA. In
> addition, your child/children can be evaluated by "someone acceptable to
> your
> ps system" or you can provide a portfolio.
>
> Admittedly this is a stressor for me also. The past two years my
> children have taken the SAT. They hate it. I didn't know an evaluator, so I
>
> took the easy way out (for me only). I have yet to find an evaluator, but I
>
> plan to present the question to the VA Eclectic list that we both
> participate
> on. My children hate testing, especially Eric. I do also. There is an
> alternative; I just have to put forth a more concerted effort to find an
> unschooling friendly evaluator.
>
> Ginny

Hi Ginny,
I probably should have said that it was my choice (for now) of evaluations.
Actually I did post a question about the portfolio evaluation and was kind of
scared away form it. Seems that evaluators and the county I live in tend to
be very SOL "oriented" when evaluating....expecting the portfolios to reflect
the SOLs (Standards of LEarning). So what do you do.....Let them nit-pick or
take the test? Fortunately, we don't have to be concerned about it yet since
my children are so young. I hope you can find an acceptable solution...maybe
"things" are more easy going in your county. Have you tried the CAT...heard
it has been the test of choice for quite a few families. Can take it at home
and test results delivered to you (through Seton, I think)...but you may
already know this.

I'm also thinking that it might be difficult to have a portfolio that
reflects what we're doing because we're doing a lot of experiental
learning....playing store today. I wonder if a parent journal of activities
would be accepted....but, you know, something really bothers me about someone
else critiqueing our daily activities.

This accountablility stuff is really irritating me...I am accountable to the
state for what children learn and when? ROAR!!!!!!!

Robin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>...and I'm trying to be aware of open moments like when my daughter was
>>all excited about a new video coming out on a specific date and we talked
>>about calenders and bought a calender and put the date in. If she's
>>willing, I thought we might plan our week together. If not, I'll plan on
>>my calender in her presence.>>

I made a big calendar out of poster board when Casey was at this stage. I
made it a blank grid with a space to put up the month and dates. I made each
month's name and each number (1-31) on a smaller pieces of posterboard. Then
I put velcro on the back of each and the matching velcro on each space on
the calendar. You get the idea. We would add the new date each morning and a
new month sign as the month changed over. Casey really loved doing it, but
if we forgot for awhile, we'd just look at the "real" calendar and update
the big one.

>>So the "list" is in my mind and hopefully the "pressure" will be mine, not
>>hers.>>

This is a great way to look at it! Eventually you'll become so comfortable
with seeing the learning that you won't need the stress or checklist at all
anymore. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary

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Shyrley

> In a message dated 9/3/2002 3:26:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> GDobes@... writes: > Testing is not the only way to demonstrate
> achievement in VA. In > addition, your child/children can be evaluated
> by "someone acceptable to > your > ps system" or you can provide a
> portfolio. > > Admittedly this is a stressor for me also. The past two
> years my > children have taken the SAT. They hate it. I didn't know an
> evaluator, so I > > took the easy way out (for me only). I have yet to
> find an evaluator, but I > > plan to present the question to the VA
> Eclectic list that we both > participate > on. My children hate
> testing, especially Eric. I do also. There is an > alternative; I just
> have to put forth a more concerted effort to find an > unschooling
> friendly evaluator. > > Ginny
>

I find the portfolio option just as offensive as tests. It is saying that
you can only prove what you have learned if you then write it down
to demonstrate that fact. Just like testing.
My kids rarely write anything (unless it's wish lists for xmas). We
have nothing concrete to put in a portfolio.
I'm completetly opposed to testing too and should, one day,
Virginia state notice that I am here and demand the NOI and all the
other hoops I have no problem with purchasing a test, filling it in
myself, getting a score and turning that it in to the county. The
county are happy that they have a number and I'm happy that my
kids didn't get tested.
It is only immoral if you then claim that the results were your kids
scores.
To me, all I would have done is supply the county with the piece of
paper they require. It is meaningless to me but fulfills their stupid
rules. It's not *cheating* cos I'm not claiming anything from it. It
fulfills the purpose of allowing me to unschool in peace.

There ya go. Just my opinion.

Shyrley


"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."

Mary Bianco

In regard to the portfolio issue, what exactly does the state say should be
in the portfolio? I have always found it best to give only what is asked for
and no more. Some people try to be so compliant and I believe that only
makes things worse for us homeschoolers in general. The more you give, the
more they will eventually ask for.

Here in FL, I know many people who turn in portfolio's with mostly pictures
of where they went and what their children do. I have seen portfolio's with
hardly any written work in them at all. Finding an unschooling friendly
evaluator would of course help. Do you have a local support group who could
refer some to you?

Mary B




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[email protected]

In a message dated 09/03/2002 4:20:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
robin9700@... writes:


> This accountablility stuff is really irritating me...I am accountable to the
> state for what children learn and when?

It can drive you crazy. The state accountability standard is the only thing
keeping me from passing Sandra's deschooling "test" (this is in HEM Sept/Oct
issue). Every year we have to state a grade level and have them tested or
evaluated. I guess I have to be thankful that they don't have to take the
SOLs.

Ginny, who's trying to figure out a way around it all


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/03/2002 7:24:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
shyrley.williams@... writes:


> Virginia state notice that I am here and demand the NOI and all the
> other hoops I have no problem with purchasing a test, filling it in
> myself, getting a score and turning that it in to the county. The
> county are happy that they have a number and I'm happy that my
> kids didn't get tested.
>

So did you do this or just thinking of it? My son doesn't "test well". They
probably don't look at the previous year's results, but what if I did
something like that and they did check. How would you distinquish between
different children's results without stating such?
This is such a PITA! There has to be a better solution.

Ginny who lives near the ghost of Thomas Jefferson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/02 5:24:38 PM, shyrley.williams@... writes:

<<
I find the portfolio option just as offensive as tests. It is saying that
you can only prove what you have learned if you then write it down
to demonstrate that fact. Just like testing. >>

Test scores do damage to kids that portfolios don't.

<<My kids rarely write anything (unless it's wish lists for xmas). We
have nothing concrete to put in a portfolio.>>

Take photos of them doing things or interview them and use quotes or just
pick quotes up from when they tell their friends. Include ticket stubs,
museum flyers, photographs of artwork (instead of the actual artwork), lists
of books they used even if just as reference.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/2002 4:21:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:
> >>...and I'm trying to be aware of open moments like when my daughter was
> >>all excited about a new video coming out on a specific date and we talked
>
> >>about calenders and bought a calender and put the date in. If she's
> >>willing, I thought we might plan our week together. If not, I'll plan on
>
> >>my calender in her presence.>>
>
> I made a big calendar out of poster board when Casey was at this stage. I
> made it a blank grid with a space to put up the month and dates. I made
> each
> month's name and each number (1-31) on a smaller pieces of posterboard.
> Then
> I put velcro on the back of each and the matching velcro on each space on
> the calendar. You get the idea. We would add the new date each morning and
> a
> new month sign as the month changed over. Casey really loved doing it, but
> if we forgot for awhile, we'd just look at the "real" calendar and update
> the big one.
>
> >>So the "list" is in my mind and hopefully the "pressure" will be mine,
> not
> >>hers.>>
>
> This is a great way to look at it! Eventually you'll become so comfortable
> with seeing the learning that you won't need the stress or checklist at all
>
> anymore. :o)
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary

Thanks, Mary.
Robin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/2002 10:36:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, GDobes@...
writes:
> In a message dated 09/03/2002 4:20:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> robin9700@... writes:
>
>
> >This accountablility stuff is really irritating me...I am accountable to
> the
> >state for what children learn and when?
>
> It can drive you crazy. The state accountability standard is the only thing
>
> keeping me from passing Sandra's deschooling "test" (this is in HEM
> Sept/Oct
> issue). Every year we have to state a grade level and have them tested or
> evaluated. I guess I have to be thankful that they don't have to take the
> SOLs.
>
> Ginny, who's trying to figure out a way around it all<<
>
Why is it and should it be the business of the state/governmental entity? I
still don't understand this. Why do we submit if it violates our conscience
to do so? (Virginia allows for a Religious Exemption from accountability,
but not an exemption of consciencious objection.) If a portfolio would be
accepted as given on *my* terms (as Sandra described), I would have less of a
problem with the whole thing; but I would still have personal objections
because of the general idea of being accountable to strangers for my
children...we are not talking abuse here. Beyond that, if it could be
accepted, the type of portfolio just described by Sandra would be better for
my children(I can only speak for my self) than the test. Then they are out
of the "loop" of the "hoops." (couldn't resist the sappy humor!) Just more
work for me. The question is.... if accepted.

Robin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/2002 10:49:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mummyone24@... writes:
> In regard to the portfolio issue, what exactly does the state say should be
> in the portfolio? I have always found it best to give only what is asked
> for
> and no more. Some people try to be so compliant and I believe that only
> makes things worse for us homeschoolers in general. The more you give, the
> more they will eventually ask for.
>
> Here in FL, I know many people who turn in portfolio's with mostly pictures
>
> of where they went and what their children do. I have seen portfolio's with
>
> hardly any written work in them at all. Finding an unschooling friendly
> evaluator would of course help. Do you have a local support group who could
>
> refer some to you?
>
> Mary B
>
> I'm asking now, actually. For the second time, but with more specifics.
> Wish Virginia was like Florida!
>
> Robin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/2002 3:26:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, GDobes@...
writes:
> I have yet to find an evaluator


> Ginny,


I found an evaluator in VA who will evaluate on your terms, not by SOLs
(Standards of LEarning). He does interview the children as part of his
evaluation. You can contact me personally if you want more info.

Robin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shyrley

On 3 Sep 02, at 21:51, GDobes@... wrote:

> In a message dated 09/03/2002 7:24:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> shyrley.williams@... writes:
>
>
> > Virginia state notice that I am here and demand the NOI and all the
> > other hoops I have no problem with purchasing a test, filling it in
> > myself, getting a score and turning that it in to the county. The
> > county are happy that they have a number and I'm happy that my kids
> > didn't get tested.
> >
>
> So did you do this or just thinking of it? My son doesn't "test well".
> They probably don't look at the previous year's results, but what if I
> did something like that and they did check. How would you distinquish
> between different children's results without stating such? This is
> such a PITA! There has to be a better solution.

I haven't done it cos VA still doesn't know I'm here. Seton send
each child a seperate CAT test so you just write the child's name
on it, fill ina % of the circles correctly yourself, being careful to get
the score just over the required 23 percentile and Seton mark it for
you and you get a piece of paper with your child's name and a
score to make the county happy.
It isn't strictly 100% legal I would imagine but the county's main
concern is to get a piece of paper with a number on it every year.
They never question further than that and you are left in peace.
>
> Ginny who lives near the ghost of Thomas Jefferson
>
>
Shyrley the bad person


"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."