riverfolk0204

I know I am new here, therefore that makes my opinion fairly
lightweight overall...but I just had to post.
I have been lurking for almost a month, enjoy reading and have
learned alot -- but I don't ask my questions here, I either wait and
see if it comes up or I go elsewhere and ask. No new person to this
board is going to brave these battle weary unschooling veterans in
arms to ask a simple question for fear of what the next post will say.
"Thats not an unschooling topic"-- never direct, always later and
vague OR "HOW could you think that way..." OR "WHAT are you
SAYING"... and so on, you get my drift. To be here comfortably you
must be an unschooler from birth and have had no other opinion ever
about life or (gasp)schooling. ~~forgive the dripping sarcasm~~
I, personally, enjoy the various views whether I agree or not and
(mistakenly) thought the point of such a board as this was to support
people on the journey of life; I thought unschooling was about a
lifestyle not a school style...obviously ,newbie that I am, I was
wrong(at least for this board). I am regretful of this opinion
because I think there are many people on this board I could learn
from,( and DO in spite of themselves) could garner information and
support from-- but darn it all I'm not asking here, it's just not the
right forum for questions about parenting and life--only unschooling.
(lol, SEE??? That is ridiculous, but it's the vibe being given in my
opinion)
I feel this was a necessary public post, I think those who have 'been
there, done that' have so much to offer and should know that it is
being wasted right now. Either you are the quiet not posting ones or
the ones we're wary of. Normally,I feel good about expressing my
opinion in life at anytime, but I also have received a few private
emails of newbies expressing such opinions so I'm taking it upon
myself to share for all-- lol admittedly taking heat in other words.
Please don't post rash, heated public replies to this in attempts
to "correct" my opinion, I am merely expressing it and don't wish to
inflame the board, just let you pillars of support know that your
effectiveness is lacking in reaching those with questions...we're
not 'afraid' to ask, we just don't think it's worth the hassle and we
don't think you'll listen, just lash out at what you disagree with.
And please don't say 'not all of us are that way' ...where are those
of you that aren't :0) Why are you not saying ~~ahem, newbies, don't
be shy, it's okay~~ lol
Okay I'm done...all that said -- WHOOOHOOOOO I AM SOOOO EXCITED TO BE
UNSCHOOLING AND OUR LIFE IS A HAPPY FULFILLING ONE :0)-- Any and all
private emails are welcome!!

[email protected]

RiverFolk,
This past month has not been a typical month. I truly hope that you will
stick around for another month and see how this list really is.
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160

[email protected]

Also, for the newbies that are feeling so uncomfortable with posting or
questions, please please please! email Joyce or Helen and talk to them about
it, that's what they are here for! It will probably be more effective in
finding a way to help you then side conversations about how this list isn't
helping.
I've been unschooling for three years and it took me 2 of those years to
find the lists that I am on today and that are so helpful to me. It's okay
to not like the flavor of a list, there's TONS out there!
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160

Gerard Westenberg

<And please don't say 'not all of us are that way' ...where are those of you that aren't :0)>

Hi! Do you want to hear an alternate view from a relatvie newbie? lol! ...I am a new poster to the list, just these last couple of weeks. I joined the list in January and have spent that time reading the emails, learning, listening, thinking - and being with my kids... Being on several email lists, I feel it is important for me to get a feel for a list - so I wouldn't post anything until I felt I had something to say/share/ask.This is just what works for me in email lists :-)...I am entirely comfortable with this list - I like the mix of posts and posters - and , as a newbie, I have felt welcomed...Leonie W.


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Fetteroll

on 8/28/02 5:28 AM, riverfolk0204 at riverfolk0204@... wrote:

> we're
> not 'afraid' to ask, we just don't think it's worth the hassle and we
> don't think you'll listen, just lash out at what you disagree with.

Your observation is a common one. To put it in perspective, though, the
observation that debate is the necessary life blood of the list is equally
common.

I too am uncomfortable asking for people's opinions on my thoughts -- just
about anywhere, not just here. I think it's because what I want in return is
support for the conclusion I've come to. I don't like holding myself up to
public examination. I get the feeling people are saying "How can you
possibly believe that?"

But I do know that examining what I believe and why I believe it is how I've
grown and changed. I know that too much of what I was comfortable with and
was certain I was right about is not so true when held up to critical and
objective examination. There's just been too much stuff in my life that
society gets us to believe is right and true that turns out to be just a
matter of preventing things we fear will happen, or purely for a matter of
convenience (usually the convenience of adults). (I mean, who in their right
mind would question the rightness of 3 meals a day? ;-)

It throws you off kilter to let go of those things that -- objectively
looking at it -- mostly make life easier for us adults.

(So maybe it helps to read the statements that come across as "Here's the
right way to think" as "If you look at it from this perspective, your world
view is going to change." It's like having looked at the rear end of the
statue without realizing there's a front end. The rear end isn't "wrong" but
it's not the whole picture and you won't ever look at the rear end the
same.)

People are different. Some prefer the gentle approach. Some prefer a more
direct approach. I suspect there are more gentle unschooling lists than
there are ones that ask people to question their assumptions. This happens
to be of the latter type. And unfortunately though those who like the direct
approach can coexist with the gentle approach. Those who prefer the gentle
approach find it very uncomfortable to coexist with the more direct
appraoch. There isn't an easy answer to that that will make everyone happy.

Yes, it does make a lot of people uncomfortable. And, yes, the wording comes
across as *very* harsh to some ears. It does help to read as though your
best friend, someone who truly cares about you, were saying the words in a
gentle tone. Because though we hear a tone in our heads it isn't there on
the screen. We're supplying that tone. It might be because it resembles some
harsh language used to us as children. Or some other reason.

It's also helpful to keep in mind that people are sincerely trying to help
in the way they feel is best. How people offer their help to us is not ours
to control. (After all we're asking them to take time out of their lives to
offer us free help!)

(And yes, I am aware some see Ned in that category. You may write to me or
Helen about it.)

I'm pretty sure that doesn't help at all. :-/ I just want you to know that
just because things don't change doesn't mean no one understands. It's just
that there isn't an easy answer. It *seems* like there is an easy answer:
everyone should just be nicer. But when you realize everyone *is* being nice
and is voluntarily offering their help in the way they know best, then the
answer isn't so simple.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/28/02 5:43:22 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
> People are different. Some prefer the gentle approach. Some prefer a more
> direct approach. I suspect there are more gentle unschooling lists than
> there are ones that ask people to question their assumptions. This happens
> to be of the latter type. And unfortunately though those who like the
> direct
> approach can coexist with the gentle approach. Those who prefer the gentle
> approach find it very uncomfortable to coexist with the more direct
> appraoch. There isn't an easy answer to that that will make everyone happy.
>
> Yes, it does make a lot of people uncomfortable. And, yes, the wording
> comes
> across as *very* harsh to some ears

As another newbie here's my view: I started posting after reading some
archives and a couple of days posts...its not in my nature to lurk. I always
have an opinion :)

I've read many things on this list that have made me uncomfortable but I view
that as a good thing. I'm free to take or leave the advice given...but I
figure I have a lot to learn and who better to learn from than those who have
done it for a long time.

My very first post was the one about my boys being "spoiled rotten." I'll
admit than when Sandra posted the link to her article and I read it I was a
bit miffed. After all, I don't truly believe they are spoiled. But after
reflecting on it I realized that choosing your wording is important. I
actually then forwarded the article to my mom because we had a discussion
about kids being "spoiled" these days a few weeks ago. It was a learning
tool for me and my mom.

Similarly, another post (Sandra again I think) talked about the ghost
structure of school in my life. I've been thinking about that now...at first
I dismissed it. Afte all, they are young so why should I think about it.
But then I thought about it more. My IRL friends have a profound influence
on me and the fact that they are so obsessed with the "proper" education for
their children makes me feel defensive and unsure. I'm still "grading"
myself by what I should do rather than what is best for my family. I'm
afraid I'll make a mistake and ruin the boys for life (no matter how
unrational that may sound.) (I do have a really great story about this
though...for another post!)

My point is (and I do have one): if this list were not so challanging I may
not have gotten the chance to challange myself. I can still disagree but if
I find something that may be useful...a different way of looking at things
perhaps...then I'll be better for it. That will benefit my children.

The only concern I've had so far is that someone would think I didn't belong
because my kids aren't "school" aged yet. I was a little defensive on
that...but now that I understand better even that is gone. :)

Being uncomfortable is unpleasant but I don't feel as though I'm being
attacked or take it personally. I love it when someone refers me to a link
or website that I may not have seen before...even though for the poster it
may feel like the same old stuff. I feel that I can ask any question I
want...but just as I don't have to take their (meaning those who have been
here a long time) advice...they don't have to agree with me either.

Tanya
mom to Andrew Jordan 4/1/00 and Eli Hunter 10/29/01
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within
himself
--Galileo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/28/02 8:44:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> It's also helpful to keep in mind that people are sincerely trying to help
> in the way they feel is best. How people offer their help to us is not ours
> to control. (After all we're asking them to take time out of their lives to
> offer us free help!)
>
> (And yes, I am aware some see Ned in that category. You may write to me or
> Helen about it.)
>
>
When you said "How people offer their help to us is not ours to control." You
must have meant some special sort of people. Seems to me you think it is O.K.
to control SOME people by BANNING them and the kind of help that you deem to
be somehow inferior.

Sherry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 8/29/02 12:35 AM, FoxgloveStudio@... at FoxgloveStudio@... wrote:

> When you said "How people offer their help to us is not ours to control." You
> must have meant some special sort of people. Seems to me you think it is O.K.
> to control SOME people by BANNING them and the kind of help that you deem to
> be somehow inferior.

Yes, when they are harming more than they're helping.

And, yes, it's ultimately subjective based on what I feel is objective
evidence.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

Fetteroll

on 8/29/02 6:17 AM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@... wrote:

> And, yes, it's ultimately subjective based on what I feel is objective
> evidence.

Oops. I should say that's why I support Helen's decision. I don't want to
leave the impression that the decision was mine to make. (Though I'd have
done the same if I were list owner.)

Joyce

Betsy

**When you said "How people offer their help to us is not ours to
control." You must have meant some special sort of people. Seems to me
you think it is O.K. to control SOME people by BANNING them and the kind
of help that you deem to be somehow inferior. **

Wait. How could it possibly be helpful when Ned said (approximately)
that the contents of this list are pablum if the list isn't actively
discussing revolutionary politics? Fighting the system MIGHT someday be
helpful, but it's untrue that every other form of help is inadequate. I
don't think Ned's sweeping insults and his contempt for the typical
forms of discussion we have here were helpful to the list at all. He ran
roughshod over discussion here with the intention of damaging it because
he had contempt for it (and us as day to day mothers). In summary, I
think Ned was harmful, not helpful. Why would anyone welcome that type
of behavior?

No single new person coming on to a large list is going to be able to
substantially alter the list to suit his or her personal needs. It's
wildly self-centered to EXPECT to be able to make a list revolve in
one's own orbit.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/29/02 10:05:09 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< No single new person coming on to a large list is going to be able to
substantially alter the list to suit his or her personal needs. It's
wildly self-centered to EXPECT to be able to make a list revolve in
one's own orbit. >>

Another point on that, though.

I've spent much of the week embroiled in SCA matters. Two former kings I
know pretty well. One (A) asking me for advice. The other (B) had told him
that when he/A was king that people seemed happy to do what he said. A
pointed out that he simply had never asked them to do things they didn't
already want to do.

What's the tale of the king commanding the sun to rise?

If you do it at just the right time, it can work out pretty dramatically.

We live near the foothills of some mountains, and I can make the moon back
down in the east sometimes just by driving toward my house. One night we
watched the moon rise three times just driving back and forth on the same
road.

So someone can SEEM to have the list revolve around her own personal needs,
or her own orbit IF she keeps these things in mind:

 Description

Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will learn what they
need from living their lives in freedom and joy. An unschooling parent is a
facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life and learning with curiosity and
enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free to choose the what, when, where and
how of their learning -- from mud puddles to Shakespeare to Spongebob
Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for you or you'd like to find out more
about how video games and life in general are filled with learning, come join
us!

As discussed on this list and at the Unschooling.com website, unschooling is
*not* defined as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
learning, nor is it done on a part-time basis. Everyone with an interest in
unschooling is welcome to join this discussion, but we ask that you keep in
mind the purpose of this list, which is to discuss unschooling in ways
designed to help each other become unschoolers or become better at
unschooling. We advise reading for a week or two before posting to get a
"feel" for the list and its members, since many listmembers love a lively
debate and questioning beliefs to their foundations. If you have questions
about this list please feel free to contact list moderator Joyce Fetteroll (
fetteroll@...)

This list and the Unschooling.com site were created and are still supported
by Home Education Magazine: (http://www.home-ed-magazine.com); Helen Hegener (
HEM-Editor@...) is the list owner

zenmomma *

>>We live near the foothills of some mountains, and I can make the moon back
>>down in the east sometimes just by driving toward my house. One night we
>>watched the moon rise three times just driving back and forth on the same
>>road.>>

We had so much fun with this driving home from Oregon last year! There were
all these hills and the way we were driving through them made the moon seem
like it was playing hide and seek with us. It seemed to be going up and down
and getter bigger and smaller over and over again. I WAS all powerful that
night. ;-)

Life is good.
~Mary



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