OUT of school to home (was Digest Number 2296)
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/27/02 5:37:48 PM, PSoroosh@... writes:
<< > I am afraid I
Holly was at a barbecue with several families. One homeschools. One was
going to homeschooling meetings last year with her four year old daughter.
One family doesn't homeschool.
Holly told me this afternoon that the mom of the four year old said she was
going to put her in school, partly because it was free daycare, and partly
because she had asked the girl to write down her ABCs and the child refused,
so she should go to school.
"That SO SAD," Holly said.
And of the other family she said the mom was reporting that the first morning
of school he didn't want to get up and refused to go. "When he got home"
(she said, which means his refusal didn't work) he said "I don't want to go
back to school. I want to be homeschooled like Josh."
I asked her if the mom was likely to let him, and she didn't think so.
This reminds me, though, of what might be a good thing for some people, and
will surely be a bad thing for many more: Our proving that there is an
option will make many children resent school and their parents even more.
When I was little and there was really NO option it was easier for parents
and children to resign themselves to what they saw as inevitable. And for
some parents now it is still inevitable. Ijust got e-mail from a single mom
friend of mine who works full time in Washington DC. She just got a better
job and is thrilled. But it's expensive to live there and she's taking care
of her son all alone.
Yes, there are extreme options, but not easy options.
So maybe we need to remember to be compassionate in this back-to-school
season and not do the happy dance TOO publicly.
Sandra
<< > I am afraid I
> will do him a disservice<<As compared to what? The public schools? >>
Holly was at a barbecue with several families. One homeschools. One was
going to homeschooling meetings last year with her four year old daughter.
One family doesn't homeschool.
Holly told me this afternoon that the mom of the four year old said she was
going to put her in school, partly because it was free daycare, and partly
because she had asked the girl to write down her ABCs and the child refused,
so she should go to school.
"That SO SAD," Holly said.
And of the other family she said the mom was reporting that the first morning
of school he didn't want to get up and refused to go. "When he got home"
(she said, which means his refusal didn't work) he said "I don't want to go
back to school. I want to be homeschooled like Josh."
I asked her if the mom was likely to let him, and she didn't think so.
This reminds me, though, of what might be a good thing for some people, and
will surely be a bad thing for many more: Our proving that there is an
option will make many children resent school and their parents even more.
When I was little and there was really NO option it was easier for parents
and children to resign themselves to what they saw as inevitable. And for
some parents now it is still inevitable. Ijust got e-mail from a single mom
friend of mine who works full time in Washington DC. She just got a better
job and is thrilled. But it's expensive to live there and she's taking care
of her son all alone.
Yes, there are extreme options, but not easy options.
So maybe we need to remember to be compassionate in this back-to-school
season and not do the happy dance TOO publicly.
Sandra
[email protected]
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:19:40 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
schooled kids. Tonight, as they were waiting to go into the pool, I heard
a few of them discussing unschooling, homeschooling, and schooling. One
of the girls said she couldn't homeschool because all her mom and dad
knew was "Mexican stuff". I found that to be really sad, how she had
learned that "mexican stuff" wasn't valauble, just "school stuff" was.
The she segued into discussing who had breasts and who didn't, and how
big she wanted hers to eventually get. These girls are *9*.
about how hard it is for "some parents" to homeschool. They always sounds
slightly superior to me, like unschooling is the best for *our* children
but let's remember to be kind to those *other* children who aren't as
fortunate and have to settle for second best.
It's a choice. I didn't even consider it to be a very extreme one, at
least it wasn't for me. I think people with unsupportive spouses or
extended families where everyone is a public school teacher have a much
harder time unschooling than I did as a single mom taking care of my
child all alone. I don't actually know of any single moms who decided
they wanted to homeschool, tried to make it work, and ended up sending
their kids to school because they couldn't do it financially. OTOH, I
know *lots* of homeschooling single moms who seem to be doing just fine.
Maybe you don't take your dream job, or you don't live in your dream
city, but there are always trade-offs in life.
Dar
> Holly told me this afternoon that the mom of the four year old saidshe was
> going to put her in school, partly because it was free daycare, andpartly
> because she had asked the girl to write down her ABCs and the childRain is in a Girl Scout troop with one other unschooler and 7 or 8
> refused, so she should go to school.
>
> "That SO SAD," Holly said.
schooled kids. Tonight, as they were waiting to go into the pool, I heard
a few of them discussing unschooling, homeschooling, and schooling. One
of the girls said she couldn't homeschool because all her mom and dad
knew was "Mexican stuff". I found that to be really sad, how she had
learned that "mexican stuff" wasn't valauble, just "school stuff" was.
The she segued into discussing who had breasts and who didn't, and how
big she wanted hers to eventually get. These girls are *9*.
> When I was little and there was really NO option it was easier forinevitable. And for
> parents and children to resign themselves to what they saw as
> some parents now it is still inevitable. Ijust got e-mail from asingle mom
> friend of mine who works full time in Washington DC. She just got abetter
> job and is thrilled. But it's expensive to live there and she'sI always get this really defensive reaction when I read posts like this
> taking care of her son all alone.
>
> Yes, there are extreme options, but not easy options.
about how hard it is for "some parents" to homeschool. They always sounds
slightly superior to me, like unschooling is the best for *our* children
but let's remember to be kind to those *other* children who aren't as
fortunate and have to settle for second best.
It's a choice. I didn't even consider it to be a very extreme one, at
least it wasn't for me. I think people with unsupportive spouses or
extended families where everyone is a public school teacher have a much
harder time unschooling than I did as a single mom taking care of my
child all alone. I don't actually know of any single moms who decided
they wanted to homeschool, tried to make it work, and ended up sending
their kids to school because they couldn't do it financially. OTOH, I
know *lots* of homeschooling single moms who seem to be doing just fine.
Maybe you don't take your dream job, or you don't live in your dream
city, but there are always trade-offs in life.
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/28/02 1:11:21 AM, freeform@... writes:
<< I always get this really defensive reaction when I read posts like this
about how hard it is for "some parents" to homeschool. They always sounds
slightly superior to me, like unschooling is the best for *our* children
but let's remember to be kind to those *other* children who aren't as
fortunate and have to settle for second best.
than what other people are doing," but that's falsehood and fake "fairness,"
because if they REALLY didn't think it was better they wouldn't be doing it.
My friend in DC WOULD like to unschool, but she wouldn't like it enough to
forego living near relatives and having a car and a place she feels is safe
and good to live in.
I could go on and on about how great unschooling's going for us, but it's bad
enough that sometimes she asks directly how the kids are, and that sometimes
she forgets and starts gong on about problems her son's having in school. I
AM being nice to her, in a kind of pitying or compassionate way, by just not
talking much about homeschooling.
<<I don't actually know of any single moms who decided
they wanted to homeschool, tried to make it work, and ended up sending
their kids to school because they couldn't do it financially. OTOH, I
know *lots* of homeschooling single moms who seem to be doing just fine.
Maybe you don't take your dream job, or you don't live in your dream
city, but there are always trade-offs in life.>>
She might have pulled it off had she stayed in New Mexico, but the culture
here was foreign to her, and she felt isolated and wanted her son to grow up
among people more like her and her parents.
Sandra
<< I always get this really defensive reaction when I read posts like this
about how hard it is for "some parents" to homeschool. They always sounds
slightly superior to me, like unschooling is the best for *our* children
but let's remember to be kind to those *other* children who aren't as
fortunate and have to settle for second best.
>>I can't help that. Some people pretend to say "What I'm doing is no better
than what other people are doing," but that's falsehood and fake "fairness,"
because if they REALLY didn't think it was better they wouldn't be doing it.
My friend in DC WOULD like to unschool, but she wouldn't like it enough to
forego living near relatives and having a car and a place she feels is safe
and good to live in.
I could go on and on about how great unschooling's going for us, but it's bad
enough that sometimes she asks directly how the kids are, and that sometimes
she forgets and starts gong on about problems her son's having in school. I
AM being nice to her, in a kind of pitying or compassionate way, by just not
talking much about homeschooling.
<<I don't actually know of any single moms who decided
they wanted to homeschool, tried to make it work, and ended up sending
their kids to school because they couldn't do it financially. OTOH, I
know *lots* of homeschooling single moms who seem to be doing just fine.
Maybe you don't take your dream job, or you don't live in your dream
city, but there are always trade-offs in life.>>
She might have pulled it off had she stayed in New Mexico, but the culture
here was foreign to her, and she felt isolated and wanted her son to grow up
among people more like her and her parents.
Sandra
Kelli Traaseth
Sandra, you are so right, I feel as though I really need to be sensitive to others when it comes to our choice of staying home. I have several friends of my children who want to be homeschooled, but their parents don't think its an option for them, reason being they only can see school-at-home option. I particularily have a good friend who is a wonderful parent, involved and also interested in doing so much with her kids, fun stuff. But she doesn't think she would have the patience to do school at home. I keep trying to eep in to her the idea of unschooling but this is a very hard concept for her, she was a special ed. teacher. I'm just going to keep showing her how happy we are and how much we are learning without even sitting down and 'doing lessons'. They just got home from a trip where they stopped at all the caves and history places in So. Dakota and such, I wish she could see life could be like that always! Not only in the summer.
P.S. What is really sad is that both children are awesome natural learners they would thrive so well in an unschooling atmosphere. And the son is really struggling with depression and self-hate because he is really scared to do something wrong in school! Poor guy.
I am so thankful to have found unschooling! Kelli
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 8/27/02 5:37:48 PM, PSoroosh@... writes:
<< > I am afraid I
Holly was at a barbecue with several families. One homeschools. One was
going to homeschooling meetings last year with her four year old daughter.
One family doesn't homeschool.
Holly told me this afternoon that the mom of the four year old said she was
going to put her in school, partly because it was free daycare, and partly
because she had asked the girl to write down her ABCs and the child refused,
so she should go to school.
"That SO SAD," Holly said.
And of the other family she said the mom was reporting that the first morning
of school he didn't want to get up and refused to go. "When he got home"
(she said, which means his refusal didn't work) he said "I don't want to go
back to school. I want to be homeschooled like Josh."
I asked her if the mom was likely to let him, and she didn't think so.
This reminds me, though, of what might be a good thing for some people, and
will surely be a bad thing for many more: Our proving that there is an
option will make many children resent school and their parents even more.
When I was little and there was really NO option it was easier for parents
and children to resign themselves to what they saw as inevitable. And for
some parents now it is still inevitable. Ijust got e-mail from a single mom
friend of mine who works full time in Washington DC. She just got a better
job and is thrilled. But it's expensive to live there and she's taking care
of her son all alone.
Yes, there are extreme options, but not easy options.
So maybe we need to remember to be compassionate in this back-to-school
season and not do the happy dance TOO publicly.
Sandra
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P.S. What is really sad is that both children are awesome natural learners they would thrive so well in an unschooling atmosphere. And the son is really struggling with depression and self-hate because he is really scared to do something wrong in school! Poor guy.
I am so thankful to have found unschooling! Kelli
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 8/27/02 5:37:48 PM, PSoroosh@... writes:
<< > I am afraid I
> will do him a disservice<<As compared to what? The public schools? >>
Holly was at a barbecue with several families. One homeschools. One was
going to homeschooling meetings last year with her four year old daughter.
One family doesn't homeschool.
Holly told me this afternoon that the mom of the four year old said she was
going to put her in school, partly because it was free daycare, and partly
because she had asked the girl to write down her ABCs and the child refused,
so she should go to school.
"That SO SAD," Holly said.
And of the other family she said the mom was reporting that the first morning
of school he didn't want to get up and refused to go. "When he got home"
(she said, which means his refusal didn't work) he said "I don't want to go
back to school. I want to be homeschooled like Josh."
I asked her if the mom was likely to let him, and she didn't think so.
This reminds me, though, of what might be a good thing for some people, and
will surely be a bad thing for many more: Our proving that there is an
option will make many children resent school and their parents even more.
When I was little and there was really NO option it was easier for parents
and children to resign themselves to what they saw as inevitable. And for
some parents now it is still inevitable. Ijust got e-mail from a single mom
friend of mine who works full time in Washington DC. She just got a better
job and is thrilled. But it's expensive to live there and she's taking care
of her son all alone.
Yes, there are extreme options, but not easy options.
So maybe we need to remember to be compassionate in this back-to-school
season and not do the happy dance TOO publicly.
Sandra
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Helen Hegener
At 12:46 PM -0400 8/28/02, SandraDodd@... wrote:
it really a falsehood - or fake "fairness" - to say that what we're
doing for our kids isn't necessarily *better* than what anyone else
is doing for their own kids? I don't think so. I think everyone does
the best they can at any given time for their kids, and just because
my kids are unschooled all the way doesn't mean I'm somehow a
"better" parent than someone who chooses to send their kids to
school. I don't see the question of education as much different than
any other choices one makes in life, like food, clothes, where to
live, how to make a living, etc. I've made different decisions for my
family, but I really don't think those decisions make me better than
someone who's made other decisions. Or did I confuse your intent?
Helen, puzzled
>In a message dated 8/28/02 1:11:21 AM, freeform@... writes:This statement and your response to it got me to thinking, Sandra. Is
>
><< I always get this really defensive reaction when I read posts like this
>about how hard it is for "some parents" to homeschool. They always sounds
>slightly superior to me, like unschooling is the best for *our* children
>but let's remember to be kind to those *other* children who aren't as
>fortunate and have to settle for second best.
> >>
>
>I can't help that. Some people pretend to say "What I'm doing is no better
>than what other people are doing," but that's falsehood and fake "fairness,"
>because if they REALLY didn't think it was better they wouldn't be doing it.
it really a falsehood - or fake "fairness" - to say that what we're
doing for our kids isn't necessarily *better* than what anyone else
is doing for their own kids? I don't think so. I think everyone does
the best they can at any given time for their kids, and just because
my kids are unschooled all the way doesn't mean I'm somehow a
"better" parent than someone who chooses to send their kids to
school. I don't see the question of education as much different than
any other choices one makes in life, like food, clothes, where to
live, how to make a living, etc. I've made different decisions for my
family, but I really don't think those decisions make me better than
someone who's made other decisions. Or did I confuse your intent?
Helen, puzzled
Helen Hegener
At 9:47 AM -0700 8/28/02, Kelli Traaseth wrote:
one of the notes sent by a parent looking for homeschooling
information this morning (the office deals with most of them, but I
receive a dozen or so direct inquiries every day). There seems to be
a popular misconception that unschooling or homeschooling in general
takes vast amounts of time and patience on the part of a parent. In
my experience it doesn't take any more of either than thoughtful
parenting should rightfully take anyway, and in fact, as our kids got
older it seemed like they took increasingly less time and patience
than their public schooled friends, whose parents were always running
here and there either transporting them to events or attending things
or buying them stuff.
I've always wondered how much the wheels of economy are greased by
this constant buzz of activity. I went to Wal-Mart with my mom
yesterday and was amazed to see a rack with lists of school supplies
from the various schools around the area; kids and parents were
scanning the rack and seizing the list for their school... Out of
sheer curiousity I ventured down the school supplies aisle and sure
enough - there were scads of parents and children busily filling
their carts with items on their lists. I must not get out enough
because this struck me as pretty weird, but these folks all seemed to
take it in stride.
Where was I? Oh yeah, patience. I don't think patience is a virtue
we're born with. I think we need to learn how valuable it is to apply
patience as liberally as possible, especially where smallish children
are concerned. I know I didn't start out as a patient person; it took
quite a while for me to figure out how to really listen to what my
kids were saying, and I know I'm still learning now with my
grandkids. It's interesting to watch how their parents react to
things they say, and how I get a totally different interpretation
based on body language, tone, attitude and other subtle and
not-so-subtle indicators. Their parents tend to take things at
surface value - they said this so they must want that - whereas I've
pointed out a number of times that there's more going on with little
kids than meets the eye, or the ear. Case in point: the eternal "I'm
hungry," which sometimes does mean they're hungry, but more often
than not means they're bored, or restless, or want attention, or want
to distract attention from something else (usually something they
shouldn't be doing), or any of a number of other things.
Helen
> I particularily have a good friend who is a wonderful parent,Interestingly (to me, anyway), I came across this same statement in
>involved and also interested in doing so much with her kids, fun
>stuff. But she doesn't think she would have the patience to do
>school at home.
one of the notes sent by a parent looking for homeschooling
information this morning (the office deals with most of them, but I
receive a dozen or so direct inquiries every day). There seems to be
a popular misconception that unschooling or homeschooling in general
takes vast amounts of time and patience on the part of a parent. In
my experience it doesn't take any more of either than thoughtful
parenting should rightfully take anyway, and in fact, as our kids got
older it seemed like they took increasingly less time and patience
than their public schooled friends, whose parents were always running
here and there either transporting them to events or attending things
or buying them stuff.
I've always wondered how much the wheels of economy are greased by
this constant buzz of activity. I went to Wal-Mart with my mom
yesterday and was amazed to see a rack with lists of school supplies
from the various schools around the area; kids and parents were
scanning the rack and seizing the list for their school... Out of
sheer curiousity I ventured down the school supplies aisle and sure
enough - there were scads of parents and children busily filling
their carts with items on their lists. I must not get out enough
because this struck me as pretty weird, but these folks all seemed to
take it in stride.
Where was I? Oh yeah, patience. I don't think patience is a virtue
we're born with. I think we need to learn how valuable it is to apply
patience as liberally as possible, especially where smallish children
are concerned. I know I didn't start out as a patient person; it took
quite a while for me to figure out how to really listen to what my
kids were saying, and I know I'm still learning now with my
grandkids. It's interesting to watch how their parents react to
things they say, and how I get a totally different interpretation
based on body language, tone, attitude and other subtle and
not-so-subtle indicators. Their parents tend to take things at
surface value - they said this so they must want that - whereas I've
pointed out a number of times that there's more going on with little
kids than meets the eye, or the ear. Case in point: the eternal "I'm
hungry," which sometimes does mean they're hungry, but more often
than not means they're bored, or restless, or want attention, or want
to distract attention from something else (usually something they
shouldn't be doing), or any of a number of other things.
Helen
joanna514
I think everyone does
thier kids. I think there are some who mostly do what's best, others
who sometimes do what's best and others who rarely do what's best.
I think people who homeschool have their childrens education on a
slightly to vastly higher priority than schoolers. I think that
people who unschool have their childrens freedom and rights to
respect, and trust in them on a slightly to vastly higher priority
than school at homers.
I think people who choose whole foods and/or are vegetarians have
theirs and theirs childrens dietary needs on a slightly to vastly
higher priority than me and many others.
Infact, I feed my kids chicken nuggest and pizza on a regular basis
and am not always good about offering a well rounded diet.
I don't always use good judgment when I am dealing with my kids and
our living together. I will galdly admit to be lesser in many areas
that I see others as slightly to vastly more intuned to. I strive to
be better, or live in a form of denial, while every once in a while
trying to be better in those areas, or with some things constantly
striving to be better.
I do see things as better or worse in varying degrees. If it's
important enough to me to put my energy into, I stive for the better.
Joanna
> the best they can at any given time for their kids, and justbecause
> my kids are unschooled all the way doesn't mean I'm somehow athan
> "better" parent than someone who chooses to send their kids to
> school. I don't see the question of education as much different
> any other choices one makes in life, like food, clothes, where tomy
> live, how to make a living, etc. I've made different decisions for
> family, but I really don't think those decisions make me betterthan
> someone who's made other decisions. Or did I confuse your intent?I don't think everyone does the best they can at any given time for
>
> Helen, puzzled
thier kids. I think there are some who mostly do what's best, others
who sometimes do what's best and others who rarely do what's best.
I think people who homeschool have their childrens education on a
slightly to vastly higher priority than schoolers. I think that
people who unschool have their childrens freedom and rights to
respect, and trust in them on a slightly to vastly higher priority
than school at homers.
I think people who choose whole foods and/or are vegetarians have
theirs and theirs childrens dietary needs on a slightly to vastly
higher priority than me and many others.
Infact, I feed my kids chicken nuggest and pizza on a regular basis
and am not always good about offering a well rounded diet.
I don't always use good judgment when I am dealing with my kids and
our living together. I will galdly admit to be lesser in many areas
that I see others as slightly to vastly more intuned to. I strive to
be better, or live in a form of denial, while every once in a while
trying to be better in those areas, or with some things constantly
striving to be better.
I do see things as better or worse in varying degrees. If it's
important enough to me to put my energy into, I stive for the better.
Joanna
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/28/02 1:06:00 PM, HEM-Editor@... writes:
<< Is
it really a falsehood - or fake "fairness" - to say that what we're
doing for our kids isn't necessarily *better* than what anyone else
is doing for their own kids? >>
I think sometimes.
I think usually.
I think it's fear of confrontation or fear of people asking more questions
that makes people say "I think all religions are equal" or "I'm sure
vegetarianism is no better than hot-dog-scarfing" or whatever people are
willing to base their lives and decisions on, but aren't willing to ADMIT
they base their lives and decisions on...
<< I think everyone does
the best they can at any given time for their kids, and just because
my kids are unschooled all the way doesn't mean I'm somehow a
"better" parent than someone who chooses to send their kids to
school.>>
Depends more on why they did what they did than what they did.
<<I don't see the question of education as much different than
any other choices one makes in life, like food, clothes, where to
live, how to make a living, etc.>>
Some people will only wear natural fibers. They must think wearing natural
fibers is better than not, for some reason. Some will not let their girls
wear shorts or pants or sleeveless shirts. They think their reasons for
doing it is good. They think those who DO let their daughters dress
immodestly are making a horribly irresponsible and dangerous decision.
If they won't admit it they're being hypocritical.
Some people don't believe they're doing the best they can do. Some people
wish they had other jobs, or ate better, or went to church more, or weeded
their yards more. But when someone makes a decision like taking a child out
of school and it's not JUST about that one child's needs at the moment but it
involves their belief that schools are harmful and that homeschooling is
better in MANY ways, they might as well admit they think it's better in many
ways.
Sandra
<< Is
it really a falsehood - or fake "fairness" - to say that what we're
doing for our kids isn't necessarily *better* than what anyone else
is doing for their own kids? >>
I think sometimes.
I think usually.
I think it's fear of confrontation or fear of people asking more questions
that makes people say "I think all religions are equal" or "I'm sure
vegetarianism is no better than hot-dog-scarfing" or whatever people are
willing to base their lives and decisions on, but aren't willing to ADMIT
they base their lives and decisions on...
<< I think everyone does
the best they can at any given time for their kids, and just because
my kids are unschooled all the way doesn't mean I'm somehow a
"better" parent than someone who chooses to send their kids to
school.>>
Depends more on why they did what they did than what they did.
<<I don't see the question of education as much different than
any other choices one makes in life, like food, clothes, where to
live, how to make a living, etc.>>
Some people will only wear natural fibers. They must think wearing natural
fibers is better than not, for some reason. Some will not let their girls
wear shorts or pants or sleeveless shirts. They think their reasons for
doing it is good. They think those who DO let their daughters dress
immodestly are making a horribly irresponsible and dangerous decision.
If they won't admit it they're being hypocritical.
Some people don't believe they're doing the best they can do. Some people
wish they had other jobs, or ate better, or went to church more, or weeded
their yards more. But when someone makes a decision like taking a child out
of school and it's not JUST about that one child's needs at the moment but it
involves their belief that schools are harmful and that homeschooling is
better in MANY ways, they might as well admit they think it's better in many
ways.
Sandra
Helen Hegener
At 3:53 PM -0400 8/28/02, SandraDodd@... wrote:
"Illusions" (one of my personal all-time favorites) there's something
along the lines of "Ask yourself these questions once in a while: Who
am I? Where am I going? Where have I been? - and see how the answers
change."
think a most people are quite capable of making decisions for
themselves without casting judgements on others who've made different
decisions.
anyway, but what about those who aren't so certain that homeschooling
is better? And at what point does one change from one certainty to
another? And whose business is it to call them hypocritical if
they're not even sure themselves of how they're feeling about the
issue? Cut people some slack, Sandra.
Helen
>I think it's fear of confrontation or fear of people asking more questionsOr maybe some people recognize that things change. In Richard Bach's
>that makes people say "I think all religions are equal" or "I'm sure
>vegetarianism is no better than hot-dog-scarfing" or whatever people are
>willing to base their lives and decisions on, but aren't willing to ADMIT
>they base their lives and decisions on...
"Illusions" (one of my personal all-time favorites) there's something
along the lines of "Ask yourself these questions once in a while: Who
am I? Where am I going? Where have I been? - and see how the answers
change."
>Some people will only wear natural fibers. They must think wearing naturalIs everything simply black and white for you? No shades of gray? I
>fibers is better than not, for some reason. Some will not let their girls
>wear shorts or pants or sleeveless shirts. They think their reasons for
>doing it is good. They think those who DO let their daughters dress
>immodestly are making a horribly irresponsible and dangerous decision.
>
>If they won't admit it they're being hypocritical.
think a most people are quite capable of making decisions for
themselves without casting judgements on others who've made different
decisions.
>Some people don't believe they're doing the best they can do. Some peopleIf one truly believed that then there's no reason why they wouldn't
>wish they had other jobs, or ate better, or went to church more, or weeded
>their yards more. But when someone makes a decision like taking a child out
>of school and it's not JUST about that one child's needs at the moment but it
>involves their belief that schools are harmful and that homeschooling is
>better in MANY ways, they might as well admit they think it's better in many
>ways.
anyway, but what about those who aren't so certain that homeschooling
is better? And at what point does one change from one certainty to
another? And whose business is it to call them hypocritical if
they're not even sure themselves of how they're feeling about the
issue? Cut people some slack, Sandra.
Helen
Kelli Traaseth
I get the patience thing from everyone when they hear that I homeschool, I guess its just that they really don't understand what we (unschoolers) are doing. And to me we aren't really doing anything?! I wish my friend could see it, her children would flourish so much, IMO anyway. Kelli
Helen Hegener wrote:At 9:47 AM -0700 8/28/02, Kelli Traaseth wrote:
one of the notes sent by a parent looking for homeschooling
information this morning (the office deals with most of them, but I
receive a dozen or so direct inquiries every day). There seems to be
a popular misconception that unschooling or homeschooling in general
takes vast amounts of time and patience on the part of a parent. In
my experience it doesn't take any more of either than thoughtful
parenting should rightfully take anyway, and in fact, as our kids got
older it seemed like they took increasingly less time and patience
than their public schooled friends, whose parents were always running
here and there either transporting them to events or attending things
or buying them stuff.
I've always wondered how much the wheels of economy are greased by
this constant buzz of activity. I went to Wal-Mart with my mom
yesterday and was amazed to see a rack with lists of school supplies
from the various schools around the area; kids and parents were
scanning the rack and seizing the list for their school... Out of
sheer curiousity I ventured down the school supplies aisle and sure
enough - there were scads of parents and children busily filling
their carts with items on their lists. I must not get out enough
because this struck me as pretty weird, but these folks all seemed to
take it in stride.
Where was I? Oh yeah, patience. I don't think patience is a virtue
we're born with. I think we need to learn how valuable it is to apply
patience as liberally as possible, especially where smallish children
are concerned. I know I didn't start out as a patient person; it took
quite a while for me to figure out how to really listen to what my
kids were saying, and I know I'm still learning now with my
grandkids. It's interesting to watch how their parents react to
things they say, and how I get a totally different interpretation
based on body language, tone, attitude and other subtle and
not-so-subtle indicators. Their parents tend to take things at
surface value - they said this so they must want that - whereas I've
pointed out a number of times that there's more going on with little
kids than meets the eye, or the ear. Case in point: the eternal "I'm
hungry," which sometimes does mean they're hungry, but more often
than not means they're bored, or restless, or want attention, or want
to distract attention from something else (usually something they
shouldn't be doing), or any of a number of other things.
Helen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Helen Hegener wrote:At 9:47 AM -0700 8/28/02, Kelli Traaseth wrote:
> I particularily have a good friend who is a wonderful parent,Interestingly (to me, anyway), I came across this same statement in
>involved and also interested in doing so much with her kids, fun
>stuff. But she doesn't think she would have the patience to do
>school at home.
one of the notes sent by a parent looking for homeschooling
information this morning (the office deals with most of them, but I
receive a dozen or so direct inquiries every day). There seems to be
a popular misconception that unschooling or homeschooling in general
takes vast amounts of time and patience on the part of a parent. In
my experience it doesn't take any more of either than thoughtful
parenting should rightfully take anyway, and in fact, as our kids got
older it seemed like they took increasingly less time and patience
than their public schooled friends, whose parents were always running
here and there either transporting them to events or attending things
or buying them stuff.
I've always wondered how much the wheels of economy are greased by
this constant buzz of activity. I went to Wal-Mart with my mom
yesterday and was amazed to see a rack with lists of school supplies
from the various schools around the area; kids and parents were
scanning the rack and seizing the list for their school... Out of
sheer curiousity I ventured down the school supplies aisle and sure
enough - there were scads of parents and children busily filling
their carts with items on their lists. I must not get out enough
because this struck me as pretty weird, but these folks all seemed to
take it in stride.
Where was I? Oh yeah, patience. I don't think patience is a virtue
we're born with. I think we need to learn how valuable it is to apply
patience as liberally as possible, especially where smallish children
are concerned. I know I didn't start out as a patient person; it took
quite a while for me to figure out how to really listen to what my
kids were saying, and I know I'm still learning now with my
grandkids. It's interesting to watch how their parents react to
things they say, and how I get a totally different interpretation
based on body language, tone, attitude and other subtle and
not-so-subtle indicators. Their parents tend to take things at
surface value - they said this so they must want that - whereas I've
pointed out a number of times that there's more going on with little
kids than meets the eye, or the ear. Case in point: the eternal "I'm
hungry," which sometimes does mean they're hungry, but more often
than not means they're bored, or restless, or want attention, or want
to distract attention from something else (usually something they
shouldn't be doing), or any of a number of other things.
Helen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
Oh, and regarding the Wal-mart thing, I really agree with Gotto on the whole society and links to school being so supporting to our business/retail sector. Back to School time is HUGE for the retail industry, as for all kinds of retail;movies, books, clothes, tv shows. I would like to see a new tv show called 'The Unschooled Family' or something showing a family who enjoys being together and living life!! I know that's probably in my little dream world. Kelli
Helen Hegener wrote:At 9:47 AM -0700 8/28/02, Kelli Traaseth wrote:
one of the notes sent by a parent looking for homeschooling
information this morning (the office deals with most of them, but I
receive a dozen or so direct inquiries every day). There seems to be
a popular misconception that unschooling or homeschooling in general
takes vast amounts of time and patience on the part of a parent. In
my experience it doesn't take any more of either than thoughtful
parenting should rightfully take anyway, and in fact, as our kids got
older it seemed like they took increasingly less time and patience
than their public schooled friends, whose parents were always running
here and there either transporting them to events or attending things
or buying them stuff.
I've always wondered how much the wheels of economy are greased by
this constant buzz of activity. I went to Wal-Mart with my mom
yesterday and was amazed to see a rack with lists of school supplies
from the various schools around the area; kids and parents were
scanning the rack and seizing the list for their school... Out of
sheer curiousity I ventured down the school supplies aisle and sure
enough - there were scads of parents and children busily filling
their carts with items on their lists. I must not get out enough
because this struck me as pretty weird, but these folks all seemed to
take it in stride.
Where was I? Oh yeah, patience. I don't think patience is a virtue
we're born with. I think we need to learn how valuable it is to apply
patience as liberally as possible, especially where smallish children
are concerned. I know I didn't start out as a patient person; it took
quite a while for me to figure out how to really listen to what my
kids were saying, and I know I'm still learning now with my
grandkids. It's interesting to watch how their parents react to
things they say, and how I get a totally different interpretation
based on body language, tone, attitude and other subtle and
not-so-subtle indicators. Their parents tend to take things at
surface value - they said this so they must want that - whereas I've
pointed out a number of times that there's more going on with little
kids than meets the eye, or the ear. Case in point: the eternal "I'm
hungry," which sometimes does mean they're hungry, but more often
than not means they're bored, or restless, or want attention, or want
to distract attention from something else (usually something they
shouldn't be doing), or any of a number of other things.
Helen
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Helen Hegener wrote:At 9:47 AM -0700 8/28/02, Kelli Traaseth wrote:
> I particularily have a good friend who is a wonderful parent,Interestingly (to me, anyway), I came across this same statement in
>involved and also interested in doing so much with her kids, fun
>stuff. But she doesn't think she would have the patience to do
>school at home.
one of the notes sent by a parent looking for homeschooling
information this morning (the office deals with most of them, but I
receive a dozen or so direct inquiries every day). There seems to be
a popular misconception that unschooling or homeschooling in general
takes vast amounts of time and patience on the part of a parent. In
my experience it doesn't take any more of either than thoughtful
parenting should rightfully take anyway, and in fact, as our kids got
older it seemed like they took increasingly less time and patience
than their public schooled friends, whose parents were always running
here and there either transporting them to events or attending things
or buying them stuff.
I've always wondered how much the wheels of economy are greased by
this constant buzz of activity. I went to Wal-Mart with my mom
yesterday and was amazed to see a rack with lists of school supplies
from the various schools around the area; kids and parents were
scanning the rack and seizing the list for their school... Out of
sheer curiousity I ventured down the school supplies aisle and sure
enough - there were scads of parents and children busily filling
their carts with items on their lists. I must not get out enough
because this struck me as pretty weird, but these folks all seemed to
take it in stride.
Where was I? Oh yeah, patience. I don't think patience is a virtue
we're born with. I think we need to learn how valuable it is to apply
patience as liberally as possible, especially where smallish children
are concerned. I know I didn't start out as a patient person; it took
quite a while for me to figure out how to really listen to what my
kids were saying, and I know I'm still learning now with my
grandkids. It's interesting to watch how their parents react to
things they say, and how I get a totally different interpretation
based on body language, tone, attitude and other subtle and
not-so-subtle indicators. Their parents tend to take things at
surface value - they said this so they must want that - whereas I've
pointed out a number of times that there's more going on with little
kids than meets the eye, or the ear. Case in point: the eternal "I'm
hungry," which sometimes does mean they're hungry, but more often
than not means they're bored, or restless, or want attention, or want
to distract attention from something else (usually something they
shouldn't be doing), or any of a number of other things.
Helen
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
> At 3:53 PM -0400 8/28/02, SandraDodd@... wrote:on 8/28/02 4:17 PM, Helen Hegener at HEM-Editor@... wrote:
>> I think it's fear of confrontation or fear of people asking more questions
>> that makes people say "I think all religions are equal" or "I'm sure
>> vegetarianism is no better than hot-dog-scarfing" or whatever people are
>> willing to base their lives and decisions on, but aren't willing to ADMIT
>> they base their lives and decisions on...
> Or maybe some people recognize that things change.*I* think it's just a sloppy way of expressing the feeling that they respect
that different people have different needs and find different ways of
meeting them. It's just a socially current phrase that people have found
resonates with the feeling they have inside but haven't bothered examining
closely enough to put words to. It doesn't mean the same thing at all but it
sounds like it's expressing what they want it to.
> IOh, but see she didn't say they were judging the other people, just judging
> think a most people are quite capable of making decisions for
> themselves without casting judgements on others who've made different
> decisions.
the choices they've made against other choices. She didn't say "I've made a
superior choice therfore I'm a superior person." She just said "I've made a
superior choice."
Have you ever committed to something because it's inferior or no better than
anything else?
As she says later judgement of a person is based on why they made a choice,
not on the choice they made. Someone who chooses to send her children to
school because she feels she's doing the best she can for them is superior
to someone who homeschools because she's tired of being hassled by the
school. (Perhaps not a realistic example but the best I could come up with
on the spur of the moment. ;-)
Sandra:
>> Some people don't believe they're doing the best they can do. Some peopleHelen:
>> wish they had other jobs, or ate better, or went to church more, or weeded
>> their yards more. But when someone makes a decision like taking a child out
>> of school and it's not JUST about that one child's needs at the moment but it
>> involves their belief that schools are harmful and that homeschooling is
>> better in MANY ways, they might as well admit they think it's better in many
>> ways.
> If one truly believed that then there's no reason why they wouldn'tThere was that "but" in there. She isn't talking about the people who aren't
> anyway, but what about those who aren't so certain that homeschooling
> is better? And at what point does one change from one certainty to
> another? And whose business is it to call them hypocritical if
> they're not even sure themselves of how they're feeling about the
> issue? Cut people some slack, Sandra.
certain only the ones who are sure of their decision but then say all other
choices are equally valid.
Joyce, whose trying on the old dusty "Sandra Interpretter" hat ;-)
Pam Hartley
----------
because homeschoolers can choose what kind of materials to use with their
kids (including letting the kids have some or all of the input), and can
change their minds 10 times a year if they want to, that homeschooling
requires much, much less patience than coping with somebody else's homework
assignments, and even with a formal program doesn't have to take much more
time than same.
When they say they couldn't be with their kids all day, I tell them that it
takes some adjustment and compromise for the first few weeks or months, but
after that everyone learns everyone else's orbits and habits and how to deal
together as a family.
But most people who say these things are just latching on to an
excuse-for-the-moment because they don't want to homeschool and don't want
to think or talk about homeschooling. With practice, I have become able to
tell the difference between the sincerely-interested and the
insincerely-interested <g> and either give helpful, longer answers to the
former or smile and change the subject with the latter.
As with anything else, people will see what you do and if their family is
having a consistently hard and stressful time and they see your family
having a consistently peaceful and happy time, they may come to realize they
can change if they want to.
This goes back to what Dar (I think) was saying about single moms and
affording homeschooling and all that -- it's a matter of priorities. If job
or city or neighborhood or proximity to family is a higher priority than
freedom in education, that's fine, but I think there is rarely (very rarely?
somewhat rarely? don't know) a real "can't" to homeschooling, for those who
really want to.
Pam
>From: [email protected]If schooling parents are clearly interested and sincere, I tell them that
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2304
>Date: Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 2:41 PM
>
> I get the patience thing from everyone when they hear that I homeschool, I
> guess its just that they really don't understand what we (unschoolers) are
> doing. And to me we aren't really doing anything?!
because homeschoolers can choose what kind of materials to use with their
kids (including letting the kids have some or all of the input), and can
change their minds 10 times a year if they want to, that homeschooling
requires much, much less patience than coping with somebody else's homework
assignments, and even with a formal program doesn't have to take much more
time than same.
When they say they couldn't be with their kids all day, I tell them that it
takes some adjustment and compromise for the first few weeks or months, but
after that everyone learns everyone else's orbits and habits and how to deal
together as a family.
But most people who say these things are just latching on to an
excuse-for-the-moment because they don't want to homeschool and don't want
to think or talk about homeschooling. With practice, I have become able to
tell the difference between the sincerely-interested and the
insincerely-interested <g> and either give helpful, longer answers to the
former or smile and change the subject with the latter.
As with anything else, people will see what you do and if their family is
having a consistently hard and stressful time and they see your family
having a consistently peaceful and happy time, they may come to realize they
can change if they want to.
This goes back to what Dar (I think) was saying about single moms and
affording homeschooling and all that -- it's a matter of priorities. If job
or city or neighborhood or proximity to family is a higher priority than
freedom in education, that's fine, but I think there is rarely (very rarely?
somewhat rarely? don't know) a real "can't" to homeschooling, for those who
really want to.
Pam
Betsy
**Have you ever committed to something because it's inferior or no
better than anything else?**
Well, yeah, when it's been convenient...
(does that count as "better" in the time/energy dimension?) Still thinking.
And what about petty emotional motivations? I've been known to have
them too.
Betsy
better than anything else?**
Well, yeah, when it's been convenient...
(does that count as "better" in the time/energy dimension?) Still thinking.
And what about petty emotional motivations? I've been known to have
them too.
Betsy
Fetteroll
on 8/28/02 5:12 PM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@... wrote:
basically. That question just muddies my interpretation ;-)
Hmm. I can only make it work if I believe other systems are harmful. Say, if
my reasons for choosing vegetarianism are for moral or (universal) health
reasons. I would think the world would be a better place if it naturally
evolved towards the same belief.
I would work for raising kids in an ideal unschooling environment too.
But I can't make it work for atheism or UU. Though I think atheism is
intellectually superior, and though I think belief in God has caused harm,
it isn't belief in God alone that has caused the harm. And though atheism is
superior for me in all aspects, I don't think the world would be superior in
all aspects if everyone was atheist.
So I have to remove my "Sandra Interpretter" hat on that one. She's going to
have to handle that one herself. ;-)
Joyce
> Have you ever committed to something because it's inferior or no better thanForget that question. Sandra's just talking about systems of belief
> anything else?
basically. That question just muddies my interpretation ;-)
Hmm. I can only make it work if I believe other systems are harmful. Say, if
my reasons for choosing vegetarianism are for moral or (universal) health
reasons. I would think the world would be a better place if it naturally
evolved towards the same belief.
I would work for raising kids in an ideal unschooling environment too.
But I can't make it work for atheism or UU. Though I think atheism is
intellectually superior, and though I think belief in God has caused harm,
it isn't belief in God alone that has caused the harm. And though atheism is
superior for me in all aspects, I don't think the world would be superior in
all aspects if everyone was atheist.
So I have to remove my "Sandra Interpretter" hat on that one. She's going to
have to handle that one herself. ;-)
Joyce
kayb85
I think that some people don't ever consider that they can make a
choice that's different than the majority of people around them. (A
direct result of school, I believe, as described in Gatto's dumbing
us down.)
I know a lady who was talking to me about how she felt when she sent
her girls to kindergarten. She hated it. She wished she didn't have
to. But she just didn't know there was another way. She might have
vaguely heard of homeschooling, but didn't know anyone who ever did
it. Compulsory age in our state is 8, but NO ONE, other than
homeschoolers, really knows that. Everyone just assumes that when
kids turn 5 they HAVE to go to kindergarten. As far as most people
are concerned their only choice is whether or not to send their kids
to pre-K.
The same thing is true with a lot of things. The doctor says to
vaccinate. How many people every sit down and research the pros and
cons of vaccinating? Not many. The majority just say that since the
doctor says to do it, the billboards say to do it, and every one else
does it, it must be what to do.
Personally, I do think that unschooling is the best choice for
children. Some people will ask what about parents who use drugs or
are abusive, and my answer is that what needs to change is the drug
use and the abuseiveness, not the unschooling. I don't unschool
because I don't believe the school-at-home approach isn't best for my
kids, I unschool because school at home isn't good for any kids.
Yes, I do believe I've made a superior choice. That doesn't mean
that I'm superior to other people, it just means that in this one
life decision, I think I've made the better choice. If I didn't
think it was a better choice, I wouldn't bother--I'd just send my
kids to school!
Sheila
choice that's different than the majority of people around them. (A
direct result of school, I believe, as described in Gatto's dumbing
us down.)
I know a lady who was talking to me about how she felt when she sent
her girls to kindergarten. She hated it. She wished she didn't have
to. But she just didn't know there was another way. She might have
vaguely heard of homeschooling, but didn't know anyone who ever did
it. Compulsory age in our state is 8, but NO ONE, other than
homeschoolers, really knows that. Everyone just assumes that when
kids turn 5 they HAVE to go to kindergarten. As far as most people
are concerned their only choice is whether or not to send their kids
to pre-K.
The same thing is true with a lot of things. The doctor says to
vaccinate. How many people every sit down and research the pros and
cons of vaccinating? Not many. The majority just say that since the
doctor says to do it, the billboards say to do it, and every one else
does it, it must be what to do.
Personally, I do think that unschooling is the best choice for
children. Some people will ask what about parents who use drugs or
are abusive, and my answer is that what needs to change is the drug
use and the abuseiveness, not the unschooling. I don't unschool
because I don't believe the school-at-home approach isn't best for my
kids, I unschool because school at home isn't good for any kids.
Yes, I do believe I've made a superior choice. That doesn't mean
that I'm superior to other people, it just means that in this one
life decision, I think I've made the better choice. If I didn't
think it was a better choice, I wouldn't bother--I'd just send my
kids to school!
Sheila
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> > At 3:53 PM -0400 8/28/02, SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> >> I think it's fear of confrontation or fear of people asking more
questions
> >> that makes people say "I think all religions are equal" or "I'm
sure
> >> vegetarianism is no better than hot-dog-scarfing" or whatever
people are
> >> willing to base their lives and decisions on, but aren't willing
to ADMIT
> >> they base their lives and decisions on...
>
> on 8/28/02 4:17 PM, Helen Hegener at HEM-Editor@h... wrote:
> > Or maybe some people recognize that things change.
>
> *I* think it's just a sloppy way of expressing the feeling that
they respect
> that different people have different needs and find different ways
of
> meeting them. It's just a socially current phrase that people have
found
> resonates with the feeling they have inside but haven't bothered
examining
> closely enough to put words to. It doesn't mean the same thing at
all but it
> sounds like it's expressing what they want it to.
>
> > I
> > think a most people are quite capable of making decisions for
> > themselves without casting judgements on others who've made
different
> > decisions.
>
> Oh, but see she didn't say they were judging the other people, just
judging
> the choices they've made against other choices. She didn't
say "I've made a
> superior choice therfore I'm a superior person." She just
said "I've made a
> superior choice."
>
> Have you ever committed to something because it's inferior or no
better than
> anything else?
>
> As she says later judgement of a person is based on why they made a
choice,
> not on the choice they made. Someone who chooses to send her
children to
> school because she feels she's doing the best she can for them is
superior
> to someone who homeschools because she's tired of being hassled by
the
> school. (Perhaps not a realistic example but the best I could come
up with
> on the spur of the moment. ;-)
>
> Sandra:
> >> Some people don't believe they're doing the best they can do.
Some people
> >> wish they had other jobs, or ate better, or went to church more,
or weeded
> >> their yards more. But when someone makes a decision like taking
a child out
> >> of school and it's not JUST about that one child's needs at the
moment but it
> >> involves their belief that schools are harmful and that
homeschooling is
> >> better in MANY ways, they might as well admit they think it's
better in many
> >> ways.
>
> Helen:
> > If one truly believed that then there's no reason why they
wouldn't
> > anyway, but what about those who aren't so certain that
homeschooling
> > is better? And at what point does one change from one certainty to
> > another? And whose business is it to call them hypocritical if
> > they're not even sure themselves of how they're feeling about the
> > issue? Cut people some slack, Sandra.
>
> There was that "but" in there. She isn't talking about the people
who aren't
> certain only the ones who are sure of their decision but then say
all other
> choices are equally valid.
>
> Joyce, whose trying on the old dusty "Sandra Interpretter" hat ;-)
Kimber
Kayb85 said:
<<<I think that some people don't ever consider that they can make a
choice that's different than the majority of people around them. (A
direct result of school, I believe, as described in Gatto's dumbing
us down.) >>>
I was one of those people. My son had problems in school since the beginning. I even went so far as to have him tested (due to his kindergarten teacher's insistence) and 'they' found him to be ADHD, ODD, and bulemic (vomiting since 18mos. with no physiological reason found. I personally believe it is mainly due to anxiety). He was 5 years old. I was advised to medicate him. During that time I was researching on the internet about ADHD and 'discovered' homeschooling. I had not even thought of that as an option. I was so upset, and I am still a little bitter, that no one tells you that you have a choice of sending your child/ren to school or keeping them home. The many doctors, counselors, other parents, grandparents, and friends gave a lot of advice but no one ever mentioned homeschooling, much less UNschooling. It was like a bright beacon of light at the end of the long, dark tunnel.
He did return to school after staying home a year and things did seem to be going okay.....for a while........then it got worse again. I really tried to 'play by their rules' and fully encourage school, be the room mother, etc...but it just didn't feel right at all. I think all along I knew that my children needed to be home with me and that's what we are doing now. School started here last week and we are still doing the 'happy dance' every morning at 9am when they get up and realize that they would have been late for school if we were going. :)
I want to thank everyone on the list for the continuing support, advice, and encouragement. I joined this list in the spring (when my kids were still in school) and by 'listening' to all of the posts, I firmed up my beliefs about what is right for my family. Unschooling has taken such a load off our my shoulders. We don't have to try to fit the mold any longer. I feel such freedom and I do wish that more people were more aware/knowledgable of the possiblities..........
Kimber
Mom to Alex ds9 and Madalyn dd6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<I think that some people don't ever consider that they can make a
choice that's different than the majority of people around them. (A
direct result of school, I believe, as described in Gatto's dumbing
us down.) >>>
I was one of those people. My son had problems in school since the beginning. I even went so far as to have him tested (due to his kindergarten teacher's insistence) and 'they' found him to be ADHD, ODD, and bulemic (vomiting since 18mos. with no physiological reason found. I personally believe it is mainly due to anxiety). He was 5 years old. I was advised to medicate him. During that time I was researching on the internet about ADHD and 'discovered' homeschooling. I had not even thought of that as an option. I was so upset, and I am still a little bitter, that no one tells you that you have a choice of sending your child/ren to school or keeping them home. The many doctors, counselors, other parents, grandparents, and friends gave a lot of advice but no one ever mentioned homeschooling, much less UNschooling. It was like a bright beacon of light at the end of the long, dark tunnel.
He did return to school after staying home a year and things did seem to be going okay.....for a while........then it got worse again. I really tried to 'play by their rules' and fully encourage school, be the room mother, etc...but it just didn't feel right at all. I think all along I knew that my children needed to be home with me and that's what we are doing now. School started here last week and we are still doing the 'happy dance' every morning at 9am when they get up and realize that they would have been late for school if we were going. :)
I want to thank everyone on the list for the continuing support, advice, and encouragement. I joined this list in the spring (when my kids were still in school) and by 'listening' to all of the posts, I firmed up my beliefs about what is right for my family. Unschooling has taken such a load off our my shoulders. We don't have to try to fit the mold any longer. I feel such freedom and I do wish that more people were more aware/knowledgable of the possiblities..........
Kimber
Mom to Alex ds9 and Madalyn dd6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
achisms5
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Helen Hegener <HEM-Editor@h...> wrote:
better than the alternatives, I did not take from it that she was
judging the person but the choice. Do you not think unschooling is
better than ps or school at home? Isn't that why you chose to do
it? And don't you think that giving chldren control over their
learning is better for most if not all kids, not just yours? Every
time we make a choice about something, we are judging its value.
Or maybe some people recognize that things change. In Richard Bach's
child or some such thing it is hard not to make some judgement. I
was talking with some moms a couple of years ago and a mother
mentioned that she had told her seven year old son to call his penis
and testicles his monkey and coconuts and how when he asked what
sanitary napkins were, she told him they were throat warmers. Now, I
think that is just the same as telling him that he better not ask her
questions about sexuality because she won't answer them honestly, not
to mention what it says to me about whether or not she is likely to
treat her son respectfully. If I knew that when she was a child she
was slapped every time she asked such a question, then I could
recognize and appreciate that she is doing better than what was done
to her and maybe if she has younger children, she will come even
farther and answer them. However, I still think it's even better to
be honest with your kids. And I can allow for the possibility that
she may not ever get to a place where she can do that.
my life; I can be a better parent and I don't weed my yard nearly
enough. I had to smile at that example because we live in between
two homes of truly superior gardeners and I used to feel badly about
that. But then I realized that right now my energy goes towards
being a better parent and just accepted that having a beautiful
garden is not a priority in my life right now. That doesn't mean my
neighbors are better people, but they are definitely superior
gardeners. And if they want to base their opinion of me as a
neighbor on the condition of my yard, then so be it. And
coincidentally (or not I think) this realization came shortly after I
started unschooling.
Mary
> At 3:53 PM -0400 8/28/02, SandraDodd@a... wrote:different
>> >
>
> Is everything simply black and white for you? No shades of gray? I
> think a most people are quite capable of making decisions for
> themselves without casting judgements on others who've made
> decisions.When I read Sandra's comments about thinking the choices we make are
better than the alternatives, I did not take from it that she was
judging the person but the choice. Do you not think unschooling is
better than ps or school at home? Isn't that why you chose to do
it? And don't you think that giving chldren control over their
learning is better for most if not all kids, not just yours? Every
time we make a choice about something, we are judging its value.
Or maybe some people recognize that things change. In Richard Bach's
> "Illusions" (one of my personal all-time favorites) there'ssomething
> along the lines of "Ask yourself these questions once in a while:Who
> am I? Where am I going? Where have I been? - and see how theanswers
> change."I try hard not to judge people but when I see someone shaming their
child or some such thing it is hard not to make some judgement. I
was talking with some moms a couple of years ago and a mother
mentioned that she had told her seven year old son to call his penis
and testicles his monkey and coconuts and how when he asked what
sanitary napkins were, she told him they were throat warmers. Now, I
think that is just the same as telling him that he better not ask her
questions about sexuality because she won't answer them honestly, not
to mention what it says to me about whether or not she is likely to
treat her son respectfully. If I knew that when she was a child she
was slapped every time she asked such a question, then I could
recognize and appreciate that she is doing better than what was done
to her and maybe if she has younger children, she will come even
farther and answer them. However, I still think it's even better to
be honest with your kids. And I can allow for the possibility that
she may not ever get to a place where she can do that.
> >Some people don't believe they're doing the best they can do.Some people
> >wish they had other jobs, or ate better, or went to church more,or weeded
> >their yards more.I don't believe that I am doing the best I can do in several areas of
my life; I can be a better parent and I don't weed my yard nearly
enough. I had to smile at that example because we live in between
two homes of truly superior gardeners and I used to feel badly about
that. But then I realized that right now my energy goes towards
being a better parent and just accepted that having a beautiful
garden is not a priority in my life right now. That doesn't mean my
neighbors are better people, but they are definitely superior
gardeners. And if they want to base their opinion of me as a
neighbor on the condition of my yard, then so be it. And
coincidentally (or not I think) this realization came shortly after I
started unschooling.
Mary
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/28/02 6:00:11 PM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< But I can't make it work for atheism or UU. Though I think atheism is
intellectually superior, and though I think belief in God has caused harm,
it isn't belief in God alone that has caused the harm. And though atheism is
superior for me in all aspects, I don't think the world would be superior in
all aspects if everyone was atheist. >>
I agree with this.
I think religion can be really good for a person or for a family.
Lots of people in my life say "I believe in God, but I don't go to church" or
"I worship God in my own way, but I don't need a religion."
I believe in and understand the draw and benefits of a busy religious life
and of a dedicated church life, but I don't believe in God myself.
Sandra
<< But I can't make it work for atheism or UU. Though I think atheism is
intellectually superior, and though I think belief in God has caused harm,
it isn't belief in God alone that has caused the harm. And though atheism is
superior for me in all aspects, I don't think the world would be superior in
all aspects if everyone was atheist. >>
I agree with this.
I think religion can be really good for a person or for a family.
Lots of people in my life say "I believe in God, but I don't go to church" or
"I worship God in my own way, but I don't need a religion."
I believe in and understand the draw and benefits of a busy religious life
and of a dedicated church life, but I don't believe in God myself.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/29/02 1:59:40 AM, snibbor@... writes:
<< I was so upset, and I am still a little bitter, that no one tells you that
you have a choice of sending your child/ren to school or keeping them home. .
. . It was like a bright beacon of light at the end of the long, dark
tunnel. >>
And a dim light at the end of a tunnel would have been much less helpful.
If we all said as a matter of course "Unschooling is nothing special, it's
only one of an array of equal choices, no better than Catholic boarding
school, no worse than total neglect" then we would be lying and would have
NONE of the enthusiasm needed to infect others or to spark their curious
learning-interest.
<Unschooling has taken such a load off our my shoulders. We don't have to
try to fit the mold any longer. I feel such freedom and I do wish that more
people were more aware/knowledgable of the possiblities.........>>
I've read this just minutes after the accusation that trying to keep this
list on the topic of how light and free unschooling can be is being evil and
showing insecurity.
If I'm in a damned if you don't/damned if you do situation, I will go with
"do," and continue to help people get to unschooling even if it involves
asking them directly 'WHY do you think he won't learn without a workbook?' or
worse.
Sandra
<< I was so upset, and I am still a little bitter, that no one tells you that
you have a choice of sending your child/ren to school or keeping them home. .
. . It was like a bright beacon of light at the end of the long, dark
tunnel. >>
And a dim light at the end of a tunnel would have been much less helpful.
If we all said as a matter of course "Unschooling is nothing special, it's
only one of an array of equal choices, no better than Catholic boarding
school, no worse than total neglect" then we would be lying and would have
NONE of the enthusiasm needed to infect others or to spark their curious
learning-interest.
<Unschooling has taken such a load off our my shoulders. We don't have to
try to fit the mold any longer. I feel such freedom and I do wish that more
people were more aware/knowledgable of the possiblities.........>>
I've read this just minutes after the accusation that trying to keep this
list on the topic of how light and free unschooling can be is being evil and
showing insecurity.
If I'm in a damned if you don't/damned if you do situation, I will go with
"do," and continue to help people get to unschooling even if it involves
asking them directly 'WHY do you think he won't learn without a workbook?' or
worse.
Sandra
joanna514
> I want to thank everyone on the list for the continuing support,advice, and encouragement. I joined this list in the spring (when my
kids were still in school) and by 'listening' to all of the posts, I
firmed up my beliefs about what is right for my family. Unschooling
has taken such a load off our my shoulders. We don't have to try to
fit the mold any longer. I feel such freedom and I do wish that more
people were more aware/knowledgable of the possiblities..........
>I love to hear stories like this.
> Kimber
> Mom to Alex ds9 and Madalyn dd6
>
While I still appreciate our freedom, I don't often get to celebrate
it. I feel resentment and/or defensiveness coming from those around
me, so we keep a lot of our joys to ourselves.
I guess I would feel like I was bragging or causing others discomfort
if I expressed too much of the awesomeness of unschooling.
Joanna
Bill and Diane
Ok, so some of us do things because they're better *for us* but not
necessarily intrinsically better,
and someof us do things because they're easier or more convenient but
not necessarily *better*, like leaving the grass 'til it's a foot tall
before we mow, but doesn't anyone here on the board do anything because
it truly is *better*?
We don't kill each other, just because it's not convenient to do so? Or
we really think it's *better* that way, even if we really may harbor
some suspicion that the world may truly be better off without that person?
I realize that there is some moral relativism out there, but I'm
surprised that the tone of the board seems to be, at this moment, that
no act is truly any better than another!?
:-) diane
necessarily intrinsically better,
and someof us do things because they're easier or more convenient but
not necessarily *better*, like leaving the grass 'til it's a foot tall
before we mow, but doesn't anyone here on the board do anything because
it truly is *better*?
We don't kill each other, just because it's not convenient to do so? Or
we really think it's *better* that way, even if we really may harbor
some suspicion that the world may truly be better off without that person?
I realize that there is some moral relativism out there, but I'm
surprised that the tone of the board seems to be, at this moment, that
no act is truly any better than another!?
:-) diane
>In a message dated 8/28/02 6:00:11 PM, fetteroll@... writes:
>
><< But I can't make it work for atheism or UU. Though I think atheism is
>intellectually superior, and though I think belief in God has caused harm,
>it isn't belief in God alone that has caused the harm. And though atheism is
>superior for me in all aspects, I don't think the world would be superior in
>all aspects if everyone was atheist. >>
>
>I agree with this.
>
>I think religion can be really good for a person or for a family.
>
>Lots of people in my life say "I believe in God, but I don't go to church" or
>"I worship God in my own way, but I don't need a religion."
>
>I believe in and understand the draw and benefits of a busy religious life
>and of a dedicated church life, but I don't believe in God myself.
>
>Sandra
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/29/02 8:44:37 AM, Wilkinson6@... writes:
<< I guess I would feel like I was bragging or causing others discomfort
if I expressed too much of the awesomeness of unschooling. >>
That's a good use of a list like this.
Those who are undecided can use expressions of the awesomeness of unschooling!
Sandra
<< I guess I would feel like I was bragging or causing others discomfort
if I expressed too much of the awesomeness of unschooling. >>
That's a good use of a list like this.
Those who are undecided can use expressions of the awesomeness of unschooling!
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/29/02 8:47:16 AM, cen46624@... writes:
<< We don't kill each other, just because it's not convenient to do so? Or
we really think it's *better* that way, even if we really may harbor
some suspicion that the world may truly be better off without that person? >>
Different ways different days. <g>
<<I realize that there is some moral relativism out there, but I'm
surprised that the tone of the board seems to be, at this moment, that
no act is truly any better than another!?>>
If that's true, then everyone's posts are equally valid and useful.
I don't remember who, when, a year or two ago was arguing that her ideas were
as valid as anyone else's on the list, even though she wasn't an unschooler
(or had been since that week or something.
It was a problem with the concept of "valid," I think. Valid in relation to
what?
My opionions about nuclear weapons are mine, but they're not as "valid" as
those of a nuclear engineer or admirals and generals, or even of Tom Clancy!
<g>
They just do really know more about it than I do.
The opinion of someone who's never lived around field irrigation by ditches,
never read about it, is less valid than mine. But my opinion is way less
valid than a hydro engineer's or an agricultural professor who has studied
irrigation IF the topic is irrigation!
Everyone I know knows more than I do about something. But if they want
information about playing recorder, for example, most of them will come to
me. And there are a few people I would go to if I needed recorder help, or
if I didn't know an answer, I'd refer the people to those I know are more
knowledgeable or experienced than I am.
The opinon of someone who just picked up a recorder yesterday is not as valid
as mine as regards recorders. As regards the stock market or transmission
repair or smoking salmon, I'd guess sight unseen they easily knew more than I
did.
Sandra
<< We don't kill each other, just because it's not convenient to do so? Or
we really think it's *better* that way, even if we really may harbor
some suspicion that the world may truly be better off without that person? >>
Different ways different days. <g>
<<I realize that there is some moral relativism out there, but I'm
surprised that the tone of the board seems to be, at this moment, that
no act is truly any better than another!?>>
If that's true, then everyone's posts are equally valid and useful.
I don't remember who, when, a year or two ago was arguing that her ideas were
as valid as anyone else's on the list, even though she wasn't an unschooler
(or had been since that week or something.
It was a problem with the concept of "valid," I think. Valid in relation to
what?
My opionions about nuclear weapons are mine, but they're not as "valid" as
those of a nuclear engineer or admirals and generals, or even of Tom Clancy!
<g>
They just do really know more about it than I do.
The opinion of someone who's never lived around field irrigation by ditches,
never read about it, is less valid than mine. But my opinion is way less
valid than a hydro engineer's or an agricultural professor who has studied
irrigation IF the topic is irrigation!
Everyone I know knows more than I do about something. But if they want
information about playing recorder, for example, most of them will come to
me. And there are a few people I would go to if I needed recorder help, or
if I didn't know an answer, I'd refer the people to those I know are more
knowledgeable or experienced than I am.
The opinon of someone who just picked up a recorder yesterday is not as valid
as mine as regards recorders. As regards the stock market or transmission
repair or smoking salmon, I'd guess sight unseen they easily knew more than I
did.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 8/29/02 10:52 AM, Bill and Diane at cen46624@... wrote:
are equal. Sandra said people should just be honest and say their choice is
superior.
Helen misread that (I think, I'm getting confused ;-) as judging other
people as inferior for making other choices rather than judging other
choices as inferior.
Joyce
> I realize that there is some moral relativism out there, but I'mNo, the original premise was that people make choices then *say* all choices
> surprised that the tone of the board seems to be, at this moment, that
> no act is truly any better than another!?
are equal. Sandra said people should just be honest and say their choice is
superior.
Helen misread that (I think, I'm getting confused ;-) as judging other
people as inferior for making other choices rather than judging other
choices as inferior.
Joyce
Kelli Traaseth
And do you know what? I just gave that book to that friend of mine a couple of days ago! So maybe it will help! Kelli
Bill and Diane wrote:*Guerrilla Learning* This is a GREAT book I just got out of the library
that's written more or less) for people like this. How To Unschool
Without Taking Your Kids Out Of PS. How To Give Your Wonderful, Creative
Kids A Little Of The Spark Back, Even Though They're Stuck In School.
:-) Diane
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill and Diane wrote:*Guerrilla Learning* This is a GREAT book I just got out of the library
that's written more or less) for people like this. How To Unschool
Without Taking Your Kids Out Of PS. How To Give Your Wonderful, Creative
Kids A Little Of The Spark Back, Even Though They're Stuck In School.
:-) Diane
>Sandra, you are so right, I feel as though I really need to be sensitive to others when it comes to our choice of staying home. I have several friends of my children who want to be homeschooled, but their parents don't think its an option for them, reason being they only can see school-at-home option. I particularily have a good friend who is a wonderful parent, involved and also interested in doing so much with her kids, fun stuff. But she doesn't think she would have the patience to do school at home. I keep trying to eep in to her the idea of unschooling but this is a very hard concept for her, she was a special ed. teacher. I'm just going to keep showing her how happy we are and how much we are learning without even sitting down and 'doing lessons'. They just got home from a trip where they stopped at all the caves and history places in So. Dakota and such, I wish she could see life could be like that always! Not only in the summer.Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>P.S. What is really sad is that both children are awesome natural learners they would thrive so well in an unschooling atmosphere. And the son is really struggling with depression and self-hate because he is really scared to do something wrong in school! Poor guy.
>I am so thankful to have found unschooling! Kelli
>
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill and Diane
*Guerrilla Learning* This is a GREAT book I just got out of the library
that's written more or less) for people like this. How To Unschool
Without Taking Your Kids Out Of PS. How To Give Your Wonderful, Creative
Kids A Little Of The Spark Back, Even Though They're Stuck In School.
:-) Diane
that's written more or less) for people like this. How To Unschool
Without Taking Your Kids Out Of PS. How To Give Your Wonderful, Creative
Kids A Little Of The Spark Back, Even Though They're Stuck In School.
:-) Diane
>Sandra, you are so right, I feel as though I really need to be sensitive to others when it comes to our choice of staying home. I have several friends of my children who want to be homeschooled, but their parents don't think its an option for them, reason being they only can see school-at-home option. I particularily have a good friend who is a wonderful parent, involved and also interested in doing so much with her kids, fun stuff. But she doesn't think she would have the patience to do school at home. I keep trying to eep in to her the idea of unschooling but this is a very hard concept for her, she was a special ed. teacher. I'm just going to keep showing her how happy we are and how much we are learning without even sitting down and 'doing lessons'. They just got home from a trip where they stopped at all the caves and history places in So. Dakota and such, I wish she could see life could be like that always! Not only in the summer.
>
>P.S. What is really sad is that both children are awesome natural learners they would thrive so well in an unschooling atmosphere. And the son is really struggling with depression and self-hate because he is really scared to do something wrong in school! Poor guy.
>I am so thankful to have found unschooling! Kelli
>
Kelli Traaseth
Ditto Kelli
Bill and Diane wrote:It seems to me (and my kids are pretty little now, but I've had bigger
ones before) that it takes much more patience to deal with the demands
(not requests) of school--like getting everyone up and out on time with
all their stuff, doing stuff from school at home every night, meetings,
fundraisers, before and/or after school practices that have to be
scheduled around and remembered.
Versus the patience I need when they wake me up early--1/2 hour AFTER
the school bus went by.
:-) Diane
posting up a storm today
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill and Diane wrote:It seems to me (and my kids are pretty little now, but I've had bigger
ones before) that it takes much more patience to deal with the demands
(not requests) of school--like getting everyone up and out on time with
all their stuff, doing stuff from school at home every night, meetings,
fundraisers, before and/or after school practices that have to be
scheduled around and remembered.
Versus the patience I need when they wake me up early--1/2 hour AFTER
the school bus went by.
:-) Diane
posting up a storm today
>There seems to beYahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>a popular misconception that unschooling or homeschooling in general
>takes vast amounts of time and patience on the part of a parent.
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill and Diane
It seems to me (and my kids are pretty little now, but I've had bigger
ones before) that it takes much more patience to deal with the demands
(not requests) of school--like getting everyone up and out on time with
all their stuff, doing stuff from school at home every night, meetings,
fundraisers, before and/or after school practices that have to be
scheduled around and remembered.
Versus the patience I need when they wake me up early--1/2 hour AFTER
the school bus went by.
:-) Diane
posting up a storm today
ones before) that it takes much more patience to deal with the demands
(not requests) of school--like getting everyone up and out on time with
all their stuff, doing stuff from school at home every night, meetings,
fundraisers, before and/or after school practices that have to be
scheduled around and remembered.
Versus the patience I need when they wake me up early--1/2 hour AFTER
the school bus went by.
:-) Diane
posting up a storm today
>There seems to be
>a popular misconception that unschooling or homeschooling in general
>takes vast amounts of time and patience on the part of a parent.
>
Betsy
**but doesn't anyone here on the board do anything because
it truly is *better*?**
Well, I'm trying to completely stop eating trans-fats (partially
hydrogenated oils). I think I need a support group for that because I'm
really swimming against the tide when I'm shopping at a conventional
grocery store.
Betsy
it truly is *better*?**
Well, I'm trying to completely stop eating trans-fats (partially
hydrogenated oils). I think I need a support group for that because I'm
really swimming against the tide when I'm shopping at a conventional
grocery store.
Betsy