Luz Shosie and Ned Vare

on 8/25/02 2:45 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:41:35 -0400
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> Subject: Re: Frank Smith/conference speaker
>
> on 8/24/02 11:31 PM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
>
>> Unschoolers have taken his [Frank Smith's] criticisms seriously, and now see
>> that the government's "false theories" (as he calls them) of education are
>> merely the tip of the iceberg that the bureaucratic monopoly of schooling has
>> become.

Joyce wrote:
>
> I'd bet it's a rare unschooler -- even factoring in the number who heard him
> at the conference -- who's even heard of Frank Smith. I think the only
> reason people here knew him was Pam Sorooshian kept recommending his Book of
> Learning and Forgetting.

May I ask Joyce, what is your point?

Ned Vare

Ned Vare

Fetteroll

on 8/27/02 2:40 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:

>> on 8/24/02 11:31 PM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
>>
>>> Unschoolers have taken his [Frank Smith's] criticisms seriously, and now see
>>> that the government's "false theories" (as he calls them) of education are
>>> merely the tip of the iceberg that the bureaucratic monopoly of schooling
>>> has become.
>
> Joyce wrote:
>>
>> I'd bet it's a rare unschooler -- even factoring in the number who heard him
>> at the conference -- who's even heard of Frank Smith. I think the only
>> reason people here knew him was Pam Sorooshian kept recommending his Book of
>> Learning and Forgetting.
>
> May I ask Joyce, what is your point?

My point is that your words are not conveying your meaning.

Do you really mean that unschoolers (which implies at least a large
percentage) know who Frank Smith is? That's what your words say.

Do you really mean that unschoolers spend a lot of time thinking about the
school system? That's what the words "seriously" and "now see" and the
emotionally charged "bureaucratic monopoly" and "tip of the iceberg"
implies. If they are they have been mysteriously silent about it for the 8
years I've been on message boards and lists. What unschoolers do discuss,
what they have been discussing online for years and years is the specific
damage done to their child, their guilt at having allowed it to happen and
what they can do about it. That's what this list helps to address.

And I'm not being Ms. Editor who knows what you mean and am just picking on
your wording to humiliate you. I couldn't even begin to discuss your ideas
because your words are getting in the way.

That's not an invitation for you to explain your ideas. It's been pointed
out numerous times that this list can't accomodate the type of political
discussion you want to have.

Many many statements you've made are like that. And many many statements
you've made seem to be really what you mean but are equally untrue. (As
examples (but not as invitations to rehash them): The Bryants fighting for
the rights of homeschoolers in Mass. Apparently the Utah father who was
shot.)

Joyce

dtomboy2000

I have never ever posted here before and have subbed and unsubbed at
various times, based on my interest in the list. Hey! That's really
unschooling isn't it? :)

But I am finding the discussions about Ned's posts particularly
interesting. I know Ned from some other lists I am on and have a
couple of comments inserted in the post below for anyone interested:


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> > Joyce wrote:
> >>
> >> I'd bet it's a rare unschooler -- even factoring in the number
who heard him
> >> at the conference -- who's even heard of Frank Smith. I think
the only
> >> reason people here knew him was Pam Sorooshian kept recommending
his Book of
> >> Learning and Forgetting.
> >
> > May I ask Joyce, what is your point?
>Joyce again:
> My point is that your words are not conveying your meaning.
>
> Do you really mean that unschoolers (which implies at least a large
> percentage) know who Frank Smith is? That's what your words say.

I'm sorry, I don't know the original reason Frank Smith was brought
up, but I know of Frank Smith and I found him on my own, in the
process of unschooling. I read a book authored by him that I saw at
the library and remember thinking, Wow, this guy sounds a lot like
John Holt in that he is a person who worked in the school system and
sees lots of problems. And I remember some of his ideas were very
unschoolish in nature. I was excited that there was someone alive
that might continue to write books similar to Holt's.

>
> Do you really mean that unschoolers spend a lot of time thinking
about the
> school system?

Well, yeah. I do. I have learned so much by getting into
unschooling and my personal interests have been very strong into
schools and how they operate, which led into politics, which led me
to libertarian thought, which led me to realize I needed much more
personal education about economic thought, etc., etc. It's very easy
for me to see how this could happen with an unschooler who cares
about education in general.


>If they are they have been mysteriously silent about it for the 8
> years I've been on message boards and lists.

Guess you haven't been on the right lists. :) Ah, does that imply
that this list isn't the right place for that kind of thought?
Maybe, maybe not.


What unschoolers do discuss,
> what they have been discussing online for years and years is the
specific
> damage done to their child, their guilt at having allowed it to
happen and
> what they can do about it. That's what this list helps to address.
>
> And I'm not being Ms. Editor who knows what you mean and am just
picking on
> your wording to humiliate you. I couldn't even begin to discuss
your ideas
> because your words are getting in the way.

Ned is not very tactful when it comes to discussing schools and how
bad they are. I like that. It's good to hear someone tell it like
it is. As with a lot of people, you have to sometimes get past how
they like to express thoughts and then discuss it with them if you
like.


>
> That's not an invitation for you to explain your ideas. It's been
pointed
> out numerous times that this list can't accomodate the type of
political
> discussion you want to have.

Maybe this is the case and maybe not. What I am saying is that the
area of politics IS as much about unschooling to some people as
learning to make your own peanut butter sandwich or discussing the
kissing abilities of past boyfriends.

What I don't get is why an unschooling list, which has such an
extreme volume of mail anyway, can't let the readers be unschoolish
and decide which posts they want to read and participate in while
ignoring or deleting other posts they aren't interested in.

I can understand not wanting the list to look like it's turned into a
list for a particular subject even if that subject happens to be very
interesting to the the unschoolers posting. And yet, for
unschoolers, it's important to be able to hear the direction that
other unschoolers' lives took after they began following their own
interests along with their children.

Wow, that was fun. Maybe I'll post here again soon. But I'll have
to learn more to figure out what is and unschooling topic and what
isn't.

Debbie

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/27/02 9:12:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Dtomboy@... writes:


> Maybe this is the case and maybe not. What I am saying is that the
> area of politics IS as much about unschooling to some people as
> learning to make your own peanut butter sandwich or discussing the
> kissing abilities of past boyfriends.
>
> What I don't get is why an unschooling list, which has such an
> extreme volume of mail anyway, can't let the readers be unschoolish
> and decide which posts they want to read and participate in while
> ignoring or deleting other posts they aren't interested in.
>
>

I agree with Debbie, and am glad to see some of the other 780 posters chiming
in.

Sherry


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