Why the continual jumping on posters?
kenyonbook
Excuse me if I am speaking out of turn as I am still fairly new to
this list. (not to unschooling, we have been unschooling for ten
years) I am wondering if some other newbies are feeling the same
way that I do about other posters being "jumped on" whenever they
speak out on subjects they are passionate about. I read Ren's post
or Bob's post or Ned's post and I think how wonderful it is that
they feel so strongly about something, and the next thing I know
someone is telling them they are rude or that they are "off-topic"
and basically they are asked to "shut-up" if they can't stay "on-
topic". I am confused. I thought "unschooling" meant learning all
your life, and can't we learn all our life, right now as parents,
even from those who don't speak quite the way we would like them
to. I learn from the posts on rap music even though I already know
I don't want any of that kind of music being listened to by my
children. I learn from Ned's anti-school posts because, heck, I am
pretty anti-school myself. Isn't everyone who UNschools? (because
if we weren't, wouldn't we just call it homeschooling or school at
home?) I hated grade school, it was a living hell for me, but I
loved high school and was very popular, but I still believe school
is the worst place to LEARN in almost all cases! If Ned comes
across as rude to some, if someone thinks Bob is personally
attacking them, there are others of us (I can't be the only one!)
who really don't see it that way when we read a post. If someone
brought up immunizations (and I will in a minute in a different
post) or abortion, I would be frantically typing with my very strong
and passionate views on these two topics, and in my frentic typing I
might come across to some as being "rude" only because these are
topics are so very close to my heart. The institution of government
school is obviously a very important topic to Ned. So what if you
don't like what he has to say about it, you are tired of it, or it
gets "too political"? It is still about unschooling, right? Or am
I wrong? Isn't anything related to school topics naturally related
to UNschool topics? Am I the only one annoyed (and a little
scared that it will happen to me, too, if I post) when someone takes
another person's post and picks it apart from one end to the other,
taking little pieces of it and responding as if it was written only
to annoy them, and trying desperately to tear their thoughts apart
in a way that makes it seem like they only want them to just SHUT-UP
already?
Ned, DO you have an agenda when you talk about the public school
system? Do you want our votes? OR, is it just me that thinks
these kind of discussions are healthy for adult unschoolers, and
that controversy is part of an unschooler's life? This mother at
home with five children likes a little jump-start to her gray matter
each morning over her first cup of coffee.
My point is, and I do have one, why exactly do we keep jumping on
Ned and Bob and anyone else who seems to have very strong feelings
one way or the other on subjects that seem to me to fit very neatly
into an unschooling discussion?
Mary from IA
this list. (not to unschooling, we have been unschooling for ten
years) I am wondering if some other newbies are feeling the same
way that I do about other posters being "jumped on" whenever they
speak out on subjects they are passionate about. I read Ren's post
or Bob's post or Ned's post and I think how wonderful it is that
they feel so strongly about something, and the next thing I know
someone is telling them they are rude or that they are "off-topic"
and basically they are asked to "shut-up" if they can't stay "on-
topic". I am confused. I thought "unschooling" meant learning all
your life, and can't we learn all our life, right now as parents,
even from those who don't speak quite the way we would like them
to. I learn from the posts on rap music even though I already know
I don't want any of that kind of music being listened to by my
children. I learn from Ned's anti-school posts because, heck, I am
pretty anti-school myself. Isn't everyone who UNschools? (because
if we weren't, wouldn't we just call it homeschooling or school at
home?) I hated grade school, it was a living hell for me, but I
loved high school and was very popular, but I still believe school
is the worst place to LEARN in almost all cases! If Ned comes
across as rude to some, if someone thinks Bob is personally
attacking them, there are others of us (I can't be the only one!)
who really don't see it that way when we read a post. If someone
brought up immunizations (and I will in a minute in a different
post) or abortion, I would be frantically typing with my very strong
and passionate views on these two topics, and in my frentic typing I
might come across to some as being "rude" only because these are
topics are so very close to my heart. The institution of government
school is obviously a very important topic to Ned. So what if you
don't like what he has to say about it, you are tired of it, or it
gets "too political"? It is still about unschooling, right? Or am
I wrong? Isn't anything related to school topics naturally related
to UNschool topics? Am I the only one annoyed (and a little
scared that it will happen to me, too, if I post) when someone takes
another person's post and picks it apart from one end to the other,
taking little pieces of it and responding as if it was written only
to annoy them, and trying desperately to tear their thoughts apart
in a way that makes it seem like they only want them to just SHUT-UP
already?
Ned, DO you have an agenda when you talk about the public school
system? Do you want our votes? OR, is it just me that thinks
these kind of discussions are healthy for adult unschoolers, and
that controversy is part of an unschooler's life? This mother at
home with five children likes a little jump-start to her gray matter
each morning over her first cup of coffee.
My point is, and I do have one, why exactly do we keep jumping on
Ned and Bob and anyone else who seems to have very strong feelings
one way or the other on subjects that seem to me to fit very neatly
into an unschooling discussion?
Mary from IA
[email protected]
Because, Mary.
If you've taken a class in university on the arts, or culture, or literature;
or if you've attended a lecture by, say, David Hackett Fischer, or E. O.
Wilson, you might have found that many folks will not carry forth a rational
argument, much less *listen* to someone attempting so much. Instead, they
shout down, or throw food (or blood, in Wilson's case) at whomever is saying
what it is they don't want to hear. They cover their ears. This has been
happening on campuses all across America for two decades now. It goes on
today, and it is killing democracy.
I too checked back in at this list a few months ago hoping to get a little
enlightenment. Really. I find unschooling attractive, haven't the guts to
completely become one, but use the ideas as best I can.
I've never once posted anything serious at this list with the hope that
people would agree with me. I was almost sure that they wouldn't. I've read
people's posts here over the years (and at the old HEM list), and have got a
good feel for who and what resides. We don't agree on much.
Nevertheless, I believe that if someone has something that they think is
important and relevant, they have almost a duty to write it, or tell it, to
others. This is the only way democracy will ever move forward.
But democracy requires a few other things as well, and, unfortunately, one of
the marks of democratic civilization has almost disappeared, and that is
listening: Listening to words on a page, the voice coming from the person
next to you, from across the auditorium, or on the screen in front of you.
By "listening," I don't mean "agreeing with." I mean making the attempt to
understand, which requires taking words and sentences for what they say.
Weighing and evaluating, bringing up mistakes if you find any, validating
truth, all with the intention of moving civilization forward.
There isn't much listening going on at this list. Lots of reacting, but very
little listening.
Thank you for your courage to say what you think. I doubt you even agree with
the things I said, but you listened to them, and others.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you've taken a class in university on the arts, or culture, or literature;
or if you've attended a lecture by, say, David Hackett Fischer, or E. O.
Wilson, you might have found that many folks will not carry forth a rational
argument, much less *listen* to someone attempting so much. Instead, they
shout down, or throw food (or blood, in Wilson's case) at whomever is saying
what it is they don't want to hear. They cover their ears. This has been
happening on campuses all across America for two decades now. It goes on
today, and it is killing democracy.
I too checked back in at this list a few months ago hoping to get a little
enlightenment. Really. I find unschooling attractive, haven't the guts to
completely become one, but use the ideas as best I can.
I've never once posted anything serious at this list with the hope that
people would agree with me. I was almost sure that they wouldn't. I've read
people's posts here over the years (and at the old HEM list), and have got a
good feel for who and what resides. We don't agree on much.
Nevertheless, I believe that if someone has something that they think is
important and relevant, they have almost a duty to write it, or tell it, to
others. This is the only way democracy will ever move forward.
But democracy requires a few other things as well, and, unfortunately, one of
the marks of democratic civilization has almost disappeared, and that is
listening: Listening to words on a page, the voice coming from the person
next to you, from across the auditorium, or on the screen in front of you.
By "listening," I don't mean "agreeing with." I mean making the attempt to
understand, which requires taking words and sentences for what they say.
Weighing and evaluating, bringing up mistakes if you find any, validating
truth, all with the intention of moving civilization forward.
There isn't much listening going on at this list. Lots of reacting, but very
little listening.
Thank you for your courage to say what you think. I doubt you even agree with
the things I said, but you listened to them, and others.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
saka30080
Sometimes's people project. And what they say applies to themselves
as much, if not more than the people they address it too.
You've been listened to and you've been disagreed with, nothing more.
Cherry in GA
as much, if not more than the people they address it too.
You've been listened to and you've been disagreed with, nothing more.
Cherry in GA
> There isn't much listening going on at this list. Lots of reacting,but very
> little listening.
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/26/02 8:57:57 AM, rsale515@... writes:
<< They cover their ears. This has been happening on campuses all across
America for two decades now. It goes on today, and it is killing democracy. >>
Freedom is killing freedom?
This logic is killing logic.
If people democratically decide something is okay, then darned if it isn't
okay.
Does freedom of speech require that all others listen attentively?
Does freedom of the press require that EVERYONE read and pass a test?
-=-Really. I find unschooling attractive, haven't the guts to
completely become one-=-
I've done it for eleven years now, and so I'm even more disappointed to find
that the person who's been insulting me isn't even an unschooler.
-=-By "listening," I don't mean "agreeing with." I mean making the attempt to
understand, which requires taking words and sentences for what they say.
Weighing and evaluating, bringing up mistakes if you find any, validating
truth, all with the intention of moving civilization forward. -=-
I think hundreds of people read everything that is written here.
I think civilization is not beholden to any one person's or group's opinion
of the direction in which it should move.
Unschoolers are changing the world. Some people would like to stop that.
Even many other homeschoolers would just like us stopped, right here and
right now. They think we're being unAmerican, no doubt, because we're not
making our kids pledge allegience each morning. They think we're not helping
move civilization forward. They think we're neglectful and our children will
never be able to take tests, hold jobs, or go to college.
I've heard those things for many years. I really listened, but that didn't
make the people right. And I understand where they're coming from, but that
doesn't mean I respect them any more.
Sandra
<< They cover their ears. This has been happening on campuses all across
America for two decades now. It goes on today, and it is killing democracy. >>
Freedom is killing freedom?
This logic is killing logic.
If people democratically decide something is okay, then darned if it isn't
okay.
Does freedom of speech require that all others listen attentively?
Does freedom of the press require that EVERYONE read and pass a test?
-=-Really. I find unschooling attractive, haven't the guts to
completely become one-=-
I've done it for eleven years now, and so I'm even more disappointed to find
that the person who's been insulting me isn't even an unschooler.
-=-By "listening," I don't mean "agreeing with." I mean making the attempt to
understand, which requires taking words and sentences for what they say.
Weighing and evaluating, bringing up mistakes if you find any, validating
truth, all with the intention of moving civilization forward. -=-
I think hundreds of people read everything that is written here.
I think civilization is not beholden to any one person's or group's opinion
of the direction in which it should move.
Unschoolers are changing the world. Some people would like to stop that.
Even many other homeschoolers would just like us stopped, right here and
right now. They think we're being unAmerican, no doubt, because we're not
making our kids pledge allegience each morning. They think we're not helping
move civilization forward. They think we're neglectful and our children will
never be able to take tests, hold jobs, or go to college.
I've heard those things for many years. I really listened, but that didn't
make the people right. And I understand where they're coming from, but that
doesn't mean I respect them any more.
Sandra
LadyWolf/Xena/MsT
I, for one, appreciate your words here, Bob. Even I have been guilty of what you have stated here, I will admit. I am brand new to this group, but the diversity of thoughts and ideas here was the big attraction, I admit. I don't see much more than "follow the leader" going on anywhere else I've been. I don't think that type of mental attitude holds democracy in place. It's a surefire recipe for disaster, as a matter of fact. I find it to be a "let's all follow the pied piper over the cliff" type of attitude. Going a different direction may not be the easiest path in life, but it might get a person alot farther than playing "follow the leader".
Ms T
Because, Mary.
If you've taken a class in university on the arts, or culture, or literature;
or if you've attended a lecture by, say, David Hackett Fischer, or E. O.
Wilson, you might have found that many folks will not carry forth a rational
argument, much less *listen* to someone attempting so much. Instead, they
shout down, or throw food (or blood, in Wilson's case) at whomever is saying
what it is they don't want to hear. They cover their ears. This has been
happening on campuses all across America for two decades now. It goes on
today, and it is killing democracy.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ms T
Because, Mary.
If you've taken a class in university on the arts, or culture, or literature;
or if you've attended a lecture by, say, David Hackett Fischer, or E. O.
Wilson, you might have found that many folks will not carry forth a rational
argument, much less *listen* to someone attempting so much. Instead, they
shout down, or throw food (or blood, in Wilson's case) at whomever is saying
what it is they don't want to hear. They cover their ears. This has been
happening on campuses all across America for two decades now. It goes on
today, and it is killing democracy.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/26/2002 8:58:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I'm not sure you realize just how square on the head you have hit the nail.
Yes! Freedom IS killing democracy: Freedom without the accompanying "ought's"
and "should's." "Ought I listen to this person and take them seriously and
try to understand them?" "Should I say such and such a thing in response?"
"Ought I listen to and possibly engage David Hackett Fischer -- possibly the
most important cultural historian of our time?"
"Should I pay attention to what E. O. Wilson -- possibly one of the most
important sociobiologists of our time -- is saying?"
"Or should I throw food or blood, shout them down so others can't hear, or
plug my ears?"
You're right, the plugging ears part is a private issue. Foolish, yet
private.
Granted, Sandra, you haven't shut me down, or thrown food. Nor have you
prevented others from listening to me. But what exactly do you mean by "If
people democratically decide something is OK, then darned if it isn't OK?"
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> They cover their ears. This has been happening on campuses all acrossSandra,
> America for two decades now. It goes on today, and it is killing democracy.
> >>
>
> Freedom is killing freedom?
I'm not sure you realize just how square on the head you have hit the nail.
Yes! Freedom IS killing democracy: Freedom without the accompanying "ought's"
and "should's." "Ought I listen to this person and take them seriously and
try to understand them?" "Should I say such and such a thing in response?"
"Ought I listen to and possibly engage David Hackett Fischer -- possibly the
most important cultural historian of our time?"
"Should I pay attention to what E. O. Wilson -- possibly one of the most
important sociobiologists of our time -- is saying?"
"Or should I throw food or blood, shout them down so others can't hear, or
plug my ears?"
You're right, the plugging ears part is a private issue. Foolish, yet
private.
Granted, Sandra, you haven't shut me down, or thrown food. Nor have you
prevented others from listening to me. But what exactly do you mean by "If
people democratically decide something is OK, then darned if it isn't OK?"
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stephanie Elms
Ms. T...I don't know if this will clarify at all, but when Ned first started posting,
I found his take on thing very interesting. I loved his unschooling posts and found
his anti-schooling posts thought provoking. The problem is (for me) is that I heard
him the first time and the second time and the third and the fourth. I have no
problem with people speaking up with strong held opinions, but my problem is that Ned
seems to constantly try to pull the conversations back to his anti-schooling. It makes
it hard to talk about the day to day. I also do not like the "preaching" aspects of
his posts...I feel talked down to and I do not feel as if he listens to anything others
have to say (I'm not saying that he needs to agree with them, just acknowledge that
others on this list exist).
I find the politics of unschooling/schooling interesting, but to be honest with you it
is not helping my journey towards complete unschooling. If I wanted politics I would
join the a hsing political list. Ned's posts (after the umpteenth time reading them come
off more as propaganda against schools...well, I have already decided to reject
schools for my boys...I want to move on)
Funny thing is that week that I joined (before Ned) there was a huge argument over
some people's interpretation of what unschooling really was. There was a lot of
bickering and going back and forth. People even left the list and formed a more
"gentle unschooling" list (which I joined and eventually resubbed because I wasn't
really learning much). But at least during that arguing and bickering I was able to
really read a lot about what unschooling was/was not and I learned a lot. This
bickering with Ned does not even give me that benefit, since we are not really debating
unschooling! To be honest with you, I am not sure why he sticks around here if it is not
what he wants it to be. There are so many lists out there that I have found if I am not
getting something from it, I go and find another list that suits my needs better.
Still not sure why I am jumping in, except that I really do miss the ebb and flow of topics
and information that was here before Ned started posting. Nothing personally against Ned,
but I am just tired of it. Luckily my delete key works....
Stephanie in Virginia
I found his take on thing very interesting. I loved his unschooling posts and found
his anti-schooling posts thought provoking. The problem is (for me) is that I heard
him the first time and the second time and the third and the fourth. I have no
problem with people speaking up with strong held opinions, but my problem is that Ned
seems to constantly try to pull the conversations back to his anti-schooling. It makes
it hard to talk about the day to day. I also do not like the "preaching" aspects of
his posts...I feel talked down to and I do not feel as if he listens to anything others
have to say (I'm not saying that he needs to agree with them, just acknowledge that
others on this list exist).
I find the politics of unschooling/schooling interesting, but to be honest with you it
is not helping my journey towards complete unschooling. If I wanted politics I would
join the a hsing political list. Ned's posts (after the umpteenth time reading them come
off more as propaganda against schools...well, I have already decided to reject
schools for my boys...I want to move on)
Funny thing is that week that I joined (before Ned) there was a huge argument over
some people's interpretation of what unschooling really was. There was a lot of
bickering and going back and forth. People even left the list and formed a more
"gentle unschooling" list (which I joined and eventually resubbed because I wasn't
really learning much). But at least during that arguing and bickering I was able to
really read a lot about what unschooling was/was not and I learned a lot. This
bickering with Ned does not even give me that benefit, since we are not really debating
unschooling! To be honest with you, I am not sure why he sticks around here if it is not
what he wants it to be. There are so many lists out there that I have found if I am not
getting something from it, I go and find another list that suits my needs better.
Still not sure why I am jumping in, except that I really do miss the ebb and flow of topics
and information that was here before Ned started posting. Nothing personally against Ned,
but I am just tired of it. Luckily my delete key works....
Stephanie in Virginia
LadyWolf/Xena/MsT
All good points, Stephanie, although I'm a bit puzzled why it was directed toward me, when I haven't mentioned Ned. I had posted an answer to Bob regarding one of his posts. Ned wasn't mentioned. Not that I disagree with what you said, I tend to agree with it almost in it's entirety. :-)
Ms T
Ms. T...I don't know if this will clarify at all, but when Ned first started posting,
I found his take on thing very interesting. I loved his unschooling posts and found
his anti-schooling posts thought provoking. The problem is (for me) is that I heard
him the first time and the second time and the third and the fourth. I have no
problem with people speaking up with strong held opinions, but my problem is that Ned
seems to constantly try to pull the conversations back to his anti-schooling. It makes
it hard to talk about the day to day. I also do not like the "preaching" aspects of
his posts...I feel talked down to and I do not feel as if he listens to anything others
have to say (I'm not saying that he needs to agree with them, just acknowledge that
others on this list exist).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ms T
Ms. T...I don't know if this will clarify at all, but when Ned first started posting,
I found his take on thing very interesting. I loved his unschooling posts and found
his anti-schooling posts thought provoking. The problem is (for me) is that I heard
him the first time and the second time and the third and the fourth. I have no
problem with people speaking up with strong held opinions, but my problem is that Ned
seems to constantly try to pull the conversations back to his anti-schooling. It makes
it hard to talk about the day to day. I also do not like the "preaching" aspects of
his posts...I feel talked down to and I do not feel as if he listens to anything others
have to say (I'm not saying that he needs to agree with them, just acknowledge that
others on this list exist).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 8/26/02 12:50 PM, rsale515@... at rsale515@... wrote:
the "oughts" and "shoulds" or is it the reasons they feel compelled to
ignore the "oughts" and "shoulds" that's causing the problems?
This is not unlike the attitude of many parenting books which deal with the
behaviors of children rather than the causes of those behaviors. Making
tantrums impossible may stop the tantrums but the cause still exists.
If people are treated with kindness, they will by and large treat the rest
of the world with kindness.
Joyce
> I'm not sure you realize just how square on the head you have hit the nail.I think you might be confusing cause and effect. Is it the freedom to ignore
> Yes! Freedom IS killing democracy: Freedom without the accompanying "ought's"
> and "should's." "Ought I listen to this person and take them seriously and
> try to understand them?" "Should I say such and such a thing in response?"
the "oughts" and "shoulds" or is it the reasons they feel compelled to
ignore the "oughts" and "shoulds" that's causing the problems?
This is not unlike the attitude of many parenting books which deal with the
behaviors of children rather than the causes of those behaviors. Making
tantrums impossible may stop the tantrums but the cause still exists.
If people are treated with kindness, they will by and large treat the rest
of the world with kindness.
Joyce
Stephanie Elms
> All good points, Stephanie, although I'm a bit puzzled why itOops! Drat it! My first post and I can't even get the person that I am
> was directed toward me, when I haven't mentioned Ned. I had
> posted an answer to Bob regarding one of his posts. Ned
> wasn't mentioned. Not that I disagree with what you said, I
> tend to agree with it almost in it's entirety. :-)
>
> Ms T
speaking to right LOLOL! I could have sworn that you were the one who
was talking about being new and not knowing why people were trying to
get Ned to stop talking. I must have read your post right after and
gotten them confused. :oP
Well, hopefully the person I meant to talk to read it LOL!
Sorry to single you out!
Stephanie in Virginia
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/26/2002 11:28:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
I'm not confusing anything. All of us have compelling reasons to ignore the
oughts and shoulds in life; and to want to silence others at times. We also
often have the freedom to do as much. But should we?
If I buy a ticket to go hear someone I know I will disagree with, is it my
democratic right to shout them down? If I go, and then plug my ears, then
I've wasted my money. If I go and attempt to keep others from hearing, then
I'm a crook.
I never suggested that people ought to read my emails. What I suggested was
that for those who DO read them, they ought to read them with the intent of
understanding them.
Go back and reread my original email in reply to Pumpkin's post. I will not
spend another moment defending myself over it. If you think it's racist, or
insulting, or unkind, or has no place at this list, then kick my ass off.
In the meantime, I intend to continue to pay attention to others' posts, as
long as I'm allowed.
By the way, all the quotes in my original email were from a cultural critic
named Stanley Crouch. Do a google search on him if you like, then call him
the racist. Or maybe "Uncle Tom" would better fit your superior insights on
truth.
Discouraged beyond belief,
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> I think you might be confusing cause and effect. Is it the freedom to ignoreJoyce, Nancy, Sandra, et al.,
> the "oughts" and "shoulds" or is it the reasons they feel compelled to
> ignore the "oughts" and "shoulds" that's causing the problems?
I'm not confusing anything. All of us have compelling reasons to ignore the
oughts and shoulds in life; and to want to silence others at times. We also
often have the freedom to do as much. But should we?
If I buy a ticket to go hear someone I know I will disagree with, is it my
democratic right to shout them down? If I go, and then plug my ears, then
I've wasted my money. If I go and attempt to keep others from hearing, then
I'm a crook.
I never suggested that people ought to read my emails. What I suggested was
that for those who DO read them, they ought to read them with the intent of
understanding them.
Go back and reread my original email in reply to Pumpkin's post. I will not
spend another moment defending myself over it. If you think it's racist, or
insulting, or unkind, or has no place at this list, then kick my ass off.
In the meantime, I intend to continue to pay attention to others' posts, as
long as I'm allowed.
By the way, all the quotes in my original email were from a cultural critic
named Stanley Crouch. Do a google search on him if you like, then call him
the racist. Or maybe "Uncle Tom" would better fit your superior insights on
truth.
Discouraged beyond belief,
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/26/02 3:22:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rsale515@...
writes:
I'm not confusing anything. All of us have compelling reasons to ignore the
oughts and shoulds in life; and to want to silence others at times. We also
often have the freedom to do as much. But should we?
paying much attention. I for one am getting very tired of the patronizing
schoolmarmish and frequently nasty attacks by the oldies against newbies and
those who are admittedly sitting on the fence about unschooling, or those who
have already grown children. I would think that the oldies would be
attempting to keep the posting lively and fresh by welcoming new and
different opinions, and by reaping the wisdom of those who've been there. Any
people who might be trying to gather the courage to embark on unschooling,
and also those who just wish to be enlightened are going to head for the
hills in disgust while being convinced that unschooling is just another dead
end to discussion, controlled by 3 or 4 women punch drunk on a virtual power
trip.
When anyone acts like big brother and tries to control what I hear, see or
say, I feel strongly that my intelligence is doubted. Aren't you other 780
people insulted by the idea that 3 or 4 people think they are soooo smart
that they know what's good for you, and what's not?!
I am a big girl who is not afraid of any knowledge, because I am perfectly
capable of separating the wheat from the chaff. I also have faith that most
of my fellow adult human beings, can do the same.
Don't be discouraged Bob, you are not alone in your quest for intelligent
discussion.
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
I'm not confusing anything. All of us have compelling reasons to ignore the
oughts and shoulds in life; and to want to silence others at times. We also
often have the freedom to do as much. But should we?
> Discouraged beyond belief,I keep hearing about the 800 posters, and yet I wonder whether they are
>
> Bob
>
>
>
paying much attention. I for one am getting very tired of the patronizing
schoolmarmish and frequently nasty attacks by the oldies against newbies and
those who are admittedly sitting on the fence about unschooling, or those who
have already grown children. I would think that the oldies would be
attempting to keep the posting lively and fresh by welcoming new and
different opinions, and by reaping the wisdom of those who've been there. Any
people who might be trying to gather the courage to embark on unschooling,
and also those who just wish to be enlightened are going to head for the
hills in disgust while being convinced that unschooling is just another dead
end to discussion, controlled by 3 or 4 women punch drunk on a virtual power
trip.
When anyone acts like big brother and tries to control what I hear, see or
say, I feel strongly that my intelligence is doubted. Aren't you other 780
people insulted by the idea that 3 or 4 people think they are soooo smart
that they know what's good for you, and what's not?!
I am a big girl who is not afraid of any knowledge, because I am perfectly
capable of separating the wheat from the chaff. I also have faith that most
of my fellow adult human beings, can do the same.
Don't be discouraged Bob, you are not alone in your quest for intelligent
discussion.
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
priss_adams
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., FoxgloveStudio@a... wrote:
..snip..
wisdom of folks who have been on this and similar discussion lists a
long time and who really do have a basis for not wanting the list to
turn into a lot of anti-school tirades. Maybe the new folks could
read back in the archives for a couple of months and see what the
moderators have been dealing with. I seldom post but I've been on
this list since the first month it started...long enough to know that
the list owner and moderators are being incredibly patient, hardly on
a virtual power trip. Wouldn't the term "power trip" better fit the 1
or 2 men who seem to want to change the list to fit their agendas?
Especially when there are lists just for the kind of posts they want
to make? List that they've been directed to and on which at least one
of them already posts? Why do they want so much to change this list
to fit their vision of what it should be? Sounds like a power trip to
me.
Priss
> >I would think that the oldies would be
>
> attempting to keep the posting lively and fresh by welcoming newand
> different opinions, and by reaping the wisdom of those who've beenthere.
..snip..
> Any people who might be trying to gather the courage to embark onunschooling,
> and also those who just wish to be enlightened are going to headfor the
> hills in disgust while being convinced that unschooling is justanother dead
> end to discussion, controlled by 3 or 4 women punch drunk on avirtual power
> trip.Seems to me some people new to the list could maybe stand to reap the
wisdom of folks who have been on this and similar discussion lists a
long time and who really do have a basis for not wanting the list to
turn into a lot of anti-school tirades. Maybe the new folks could
read back in the archives for a couple of months and see what the
moderators have been dealing with. I seldom post but I've been on
this list since the first month it started...long enough to know that
the list owner and moderators are being incredibly patient, hardly on
a virtual power trip. Wouldn't the term "power trip" better fit the 1
or 2 men who seem to want to change the list to fit their agendas?
Especially when there are lists just for the kind of posts they want
to make? List that they've been directed to and on which at least one
of them already posts? Why do they want so much to change this list
to fit their vision of what it should be? Sounds like a power trip to
me.
Priss
Helen Hegener
At 10:56 AM -0400 8/26/02, rsale515@... wrote:
what I decided I needed to do when the volume on this list got turned
up again; instead of replying (reacting) to every post I decided to
just stop and read and try to make sense of what was happening, who
was saying what - and why they were saying it, paying special
attention to words, phrases, and people that seemingly rubbed me the
wrong way.
Back to reading now.
Helen
>But democracy requires a few other things as well, and, unfortunately, one ofThanks for writing that, Bob. It occurs to me that listening is just
>the marks of democratic civilization has almost disappeared, and that is
>listening: Listening to words on a page, the voice coming from the person
>next to you, from across the auditorium, or on the screen in front of you.
>
>By "listening," I don't mean "agreeing with." I mean making the attempt to
>understand, which requires taking words and sentences for what they say.
>Weighing and evaluating, bringing up mistakes if you find any, validating
>truth, all with the intention of moving civilization forward.
>
>There isn't much listening going on at this list. Lots of reacting, but very
>little listening.
what I decided I needed to do when the volume on this list got turned
up again; instead of replying (reacting) to every post I decided to
just stop and read and try to make sense of what was happening, who
was saying what - and why they were saying it, paying special
attention to words, phrases, and people that seemingly rubbed me the
wrong way.
Back to reading now.
Helen