Eminem
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/25/02 8:42:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
I wasn't talking about you. But I'm glad you don't have any. [Hint: because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about
you.
You're not that important.] >>
Wow! That was the most incredibly rude thing I've read in a long time.
I really, really wish that Ned and Bob would stay off the list for a while,
just quit posting all together and READ what gets posted here when people
aren't being purposely offensive.
If you want to see what the typical ebb and flow of discussion is, read some
of the archives right before Ned came on board. It was nice. People were
talking about what works in their homes, what unschooling really looks like
and the joyful day to day events that paint a life.
PLEASE!! If you don't understand what this list is about, or the discussions
here, just read for a while until you get the feel for it.
There is some really destructive criticism of Sandra, Joyce and even HELEN
going on here which really floors me.
This is Helen's list, can't you just respect her request for how the list is
handled?
Sandra has been on it for years and DOES understand Helen's request.
Joyce is the moderator and has done a fabulous job at every turn.
It makes me ill to see these fabulous, strong and wise women get so much
disrespect in a forum that people come to just for their (and Pam, Elissa's,
Tia's etc...) wonderful views of unschooling.
I beg you to quit with the meanness and let the list get back to the
wonderful discussions it was having. Really.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<<
I wasn't talking about you. But I'm glad you don't have any. [Hint: because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about
you.
You're not that important.] >>
Wow! That was the most incredibly rude thing I've read in a long time.
I really, really wish that Ned and Bob would stay off the list for a while,
just quit posting all together and READ what gets posted here when people
aren't being purposely offensive.
If you want to see what the typical ebb and flow of discussion is, read some
of the archives right before Ned came on board. It was nice. People were
talking about what works in their homes, what unschooling really looks like
and the joyful day to day events that paint a life.
PLEASE!! If you don't understand what this list is about, or the discussions
here, just read for a while until you get the feel for it.
There is some really destructive criticism of Sandra, Joyce and even HELEN
going on here which really floors me.
This is Helen's list, can't you just respect her request for how the list is
handled?
Sandra has been on it for years and DOES understand Helen's request.
Joyce is the moderator and has done a fabulous job at every turn.
It makes me ill to see these fabulous, strong and wise women get so much
disrespect in a forum that people come to just for their (and Pam, Elissa's,
Tia's etc...) wonderful views of unschooling.
I beg you to quit with the meanness and let the list get back to the
wonderful discussions it was having. Really.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/25/02 8:03:31 PM, starsuncloud@... writes:
<< <<
I wasn't talking about you. But I'm glad you don't have any. [Hint: because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about
you.
You're not that important.] >>
-=-Wow! That was the most incredibly rude thing I've read in a long time. -=-
It wasn't the rudeness that got to me so much as the total stupdity of the
denial. To put my FULL NAME three times and then say it wasn't about me is
just like a PeeWee Herman response. "I know you are, but what am I?"
Just the sort of nonsense I'm glad my kids get to avoid in their everyday
lives. They're pretty much surrounded by people of good will who make sense.
On this list we don't quite have the privilege.
Sandra
<< <<
I wasn't talking about you. But I'm glad you don't have any. [Hint: because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about
you.
You're not that important.] >>
-=-Wow! That was the most incredibly rude thing I've read in a long time. -=-
It wasn't the rudeness that got to me so much as the total stupdity of the
denial. To put my FULL NAME three times and then say it wasn't about me is
just like a PeeWee Herman response. "I know you are, but what am I?"
Just the sort of nonsense I'm glad my kids get to avoid in their everyday
lives. They're pretty much surrounded by people of good will who make sense.
On this list we don't quite have the privilege.
Sandra
[email protected]
The post on *GANGSTA* rap that I originally replied to was at the time the
most recent in a thread on Eminem, Marylin Manson, and some of the crudities
and controversies in popular music. Helen mentioned a long conversation with
her son that was sparked by one of Eminem's songs. That song is truly
brilliant. She also seemed pleased that her son had settled some things about
it after the talk. I found what she said to be inspiring. She is also
probably familiar with Stanley Crouch. (Am I looking for some sort of
advocate at this list -- you bet your ass. I won't hold my breath.)
Regardless. Helen and the woman's (Pumpkin?) posts hit home with me. I have
played drums for a living since I was 14, much of it jazz, and I think about
this stuff all the time. It is a subject close to me as a professional and as
a parent and as a critic (at least in my own mind).
I replied to Pumpkin, who *insightfully* and first-handedly pointed out that
the type of rap the thread was talking about -- the lewd, vulgar,
misogynistic, perverted, and antihuman "gangsta" type -- was "perhaps best
enjoyed by those who don't have to personally deal with the reality that
fuels the lyrics." Will any of you deny the truth of what the she said? Will
any of you dare to confirm it?
An aside: Don't lay this "Lauren Hill, et al. are positive" bullshit on me as
if I don't understand that there is a related element -- hip-hop -- that is
redeeming. That's not what the conversation was about. I'm not fucking
clueless. Are you?
Sandra was the only one who took the woman to task, thus Sandra set herself
up -- which is what you do at a list like this when serious topics get
broached -- to be questioned in return. I did just that and she took it as an
attack, or rather, me trying to "shame" her.
If you go back and reread the post, you will see that it was NOT about
Sandra. Three specific statements she made got addressed by me in three small
paragraphs out of a rather large email, one in which I set out to confirm the
woman's original point. For Sandra to reply and chastise me as if the post
were an attack on her and not an assent to the woman's point about the
vicious cycle that the gangsta rap culture has spawned, tells me that she saw
her name and figured it all must be about her. This thus tells me she that
has an inflated idea of her own importance. I also named and quoted Stanley
Crouch three times, shall I send him a copy, seeing how it must be about him
as well? He'll love it. I'll send him all your replies along with it.
Someone asked what gangsta rap (or any other antihuman aberrant art form,
which includes NIN, Marilyn Manson, neo-Nazi thrash metal, etc.) has to do
with unschooling? Everything. It is all round us. It is where we work, where
we shop, what we see at the movies. It isn't a black thing, and if I gave the
impression that I think it is, and that I hate it for that reason, then you
again misread me, and also missed my point about the four black artists.
It appears there are some sacred cows, or visions, at this list that can't
handle contrary ideas without becoming offended. If I have done the verbal
equivalent of raping your mothers, selling drugs to your sons, or
prostituting your daughters (all subjects celebrated in gangsta rap), I would
love to hear about it. I will truly repent at that point.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
most recent in a thread on Eminem, Marylin Manson, and some of the crudities
and controversies in popular music. Helen mentioned a long conversation with
her son that was sparked by one of Eminem's songs. That song is truly
brilliant. She also seemed pleased that her son had settled some things about
it after the talk. I found what she said to be inspiring. She is also
probably familiar with Stanley Crouch. (Am I looking for some sort of
advocate at this list -- you bet your ass. I won't hold my breath.)
Regardless. Helen and the woman's (Pumpkin?) posts hit home with me. I have
played drums for a living since I was 14, much of it jazz, and I think about
this stuff all the time. It is a subject close to me as a professional and as
a parent and as a critic (at least in my own mind).
I replied to Pumpkin, who *insightfully* and first-handedly pointed out that
the type of rap the thread was talking about -- the lewd, vulgar,
misogynistic, perverted, and antihuman "gangsta" type -- was "perhaps best
enjoyed by those who don't have to personally deal with the reality that
fuels the lyrics." Will any of you deny the truth of what the she said? Will
any of you dare to confirm it?
An aside: Don't lay this "Lauren Hill, et al. are positive" bullshit on me as
if I don't understand that there is a related element -- hip-hop -- that is
redeeming. That's not what the conversation was about. I'm not fucking
clueless. Are you?
Sandra was the only one who took the woman to task, thus Sandra set herself
up -- which is what you do at a list like this when serious topics get
broached -- to be questioned in return. I did just that and she took it as an
attack, or rather, me trying to "shame" her.
If you go back and reread the post, you will see that it was NOT about
Sandra. Three specific statements she made got addressed by me in three small
paragraphs out of a rather large email, one in which I set out to confirm the
woman's original point. For Sandra to reply and chastise me as if the post
were an attack on her and not an assent to the woman's point about the
vicious cycle that the gangsta rap culture has spawned, tells me that she saw
her name and figured it all must be about her. This thus tells me she that
has an inflated idea of her own importance. I also named and quoted Stanley
Crouch three times, shall I send him a copy, seeing how it must be about him
as well? He'll love it. I'll send him all your replies along with it.
Someone asked what gangsta rap (or any other antihuman aberrant art form,
which includes NIN, Marilyn Manson, neo-Nazi thrash metal, etc.) has to do
with unschooling? Everything. It is all round us. It is where we work, where
we shop, what we see at the movies. It isn't a black thing, and if I gave the
impression that I think it is, and that I hate it for that reason, then you
again misread me, and also missed my point about the four black artists.
It appears there are some sacred cows, or visions, at this list that can't
handle contrary ideas without becoming offended. If I have done the verbal
equivalent of raping your mothers, selling drugs to your sons, or
prostituting your daughters (all subjects celebrated in gangsta rap), I would
love to hear about it. I will truly repent at that point.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/25/02 7:02:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
done with this) as I was just about to unsub from this list. I really want
to find a place that can help me as we find our way into unschooling (we are
starting from "preschool" age)...but not in an enviroment like this. I can't
even understand some of the posts...but I can understand the tone and it
isn't nice.
I don't know if anyone will care about this...but I am a "newbie" and I do
need my hand held...especially in dealing with family. I don't need to read
a bunch of arguing...I don't have time for it.
I have read the HEM webpages finally (and requested a sample copy as I didn't
even know this mag existed) and some great articles from Sandra's site and
I'm excited to have the possibility to learn first hand from her and Helen
and all the other more "experienced" unschoolers. I've bookmarked Ned's site
and others that were refered to me. Sandra has already helped me look at the
way I think of my boys by her refering to the article on "spoiled rotten"
children (as I was the the one who said they were spoiled...meaning they have
many more things than I think they need and are constantly given more by
their grandparents.) I feel like I could really learn a lot here.
I'm just one small person who hasn't been here very long...I'd like to be
here for years...But my life is stressful enough without this. It makes my
stomach hurt :(
Tanya
mom to Andrew Jordan 4/1/00 and Eli Hunter 10/29/01
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within
himself
--Galileo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> People wereI'm very glad to hear this (and I'm going to read the archives as soon as I'm
> talking about what works in their homes, what unschooling really looks like
>
> and the joyful day to day events that paint a life.
> PLEASE!! If you don't understand what this list is about, or the
> discussions
> here, just read for a while until you get the feel for it.
done with this) as I was just about to unsub from this list. I really want
to find a place that can help me as we find our way into unschooling (we are
starting from "preschool" age)...but not in an enviroment like this. I can't
even understand some of the posts...but I can understand the tone and it
isn't nice.
I don't know if anyone will care about this...but I am a "newbie" and I do
need my hand held...especially in dealing with family. I don't need to read
a bunch of arguing...I don't have time for it.
I have read the HEM webpages finally (and requested a sample copy as I didn't
even know this mag existed) and some great articles from Sandra's site and
I'm excited to have the possibility to learn first hand from her and Helen
and all the other more "experienced" unschoolers. I've bookmarked Ned's site
and others that were refered to me. Sandra has already helped me look at the
way I think of my boys by her refering to the article on "spoiled rotten"
children (as I was the the one who said they were spoiled...meaning they have
many more things than I think they need and are constantly given more by
their grandparents.) I feel like I could really learn a lot here.
I'm just one small person who hasn't been here very long...I'd like to be
here for years...But my life is stressful enough without this. It makes my
stomach hurt :(
Tanya
mom to Andrew Jordan 4/1/00 and Eli Hunter 10/29/01
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within
himself
--Galileo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
saka30080
Here we go.
<An aside: Don't lay this "Lauren Hill, et al. are positive" bullshit
on me as
if I don't understand that there is a related element -- hip-hop --
that is
redeeming. That's not what the conversation was about. I'm not
fucking
clueless. Are you?>
Give me a break. You are clueless. Hip-hop is rap. Period.
<I replied to Pumpkin, who *insightfully* and first-handedly pointed
out that
the type of rap the thread was talking about -- the lewd, vulgar,
misogynistic, perverted, and antihuman "gangsta" type -- was "perhaps
best
enjoyed by those who don't have to personally deal with the reality
that
fuels the lyrics." Will any of you deny the truth of what the she
said? Will
any of you dare to confirm it?>
I'll deny it. Who is she to decide what should be listened to in the
black community? We are responsible for our choices. Rap music does
not make anyone do anything. It is insulting to suggest it does.
And it's a copout for people who don't want to go into the ghetto and
effect real change. Abusive rap is a symptom and a story of a
community. The point is the truth hurts and some people don't want
to acknowledge what history has wrought.
<Someone asked what gangsta rap (or any other antihuman aberrant art
form,
which includes NIN, Marilyn Manson, neo-Nazi thrash metal, etc.) has
to do
with unschooling? Everything. It is all round us. It is where we
work, where
we shop, what we see at the movies. It isn't a black thing, and if I
gave the
impression that I think it is, and that I hate it for that reason,
then you
again misread me, and also missed my point about the four black
artists.>
Maybe you should change your focus. Listen to what it's telling you
instead of shutting down because it's not sweet and light. Calling
it antihuman is stupid. The artist are human. Anger is human.
Anger fuels angry art, in all mediums. Maybe you should concentrate
on WHY the anger is manifest. Instead of WHAT the anger produces.
That's the only way to get to HOW to change society. And some
understanding.
<It appears there are some sacred cows, or visions, at this list that
can't
handle contrary ideas without becoming offended. If I have done the
verbal
equivalent of raping your mothers, selling drugs to your sons, or
prostituting your daughters (all subjects celebrated in gangsta rap),
I would
love to hear about it. I will truly repent at that point>
Imagine if I ever wrote this in seriousness:
"The pornography that is christianity. Christianity is a cesspool of
hypocrisy, rapist, money-grubbers and charletans. What are they
selling to our youth?"
All of the above can be found in christianity but to paint that as
the whole of christianity is wrong. Tell me you wouldn't be
offended. And if I said I wasn't referring to the UU's which has
redeeming qualities you'd dismiss me.
Like Too Short raps "You talk a good game but I don't believe in you"
Cherry in GA
<An aside: Don't lay this "Lauren Hill, et al. are positive" bullshit
on me as
if I don't understand that there is a related element -- hip-hop --
that is
redeeming. That's not what the conversation was about. I'm not
fucking
clueless. Are you?>
Give me a break. You are clueless. Hip-hop is rap. Period.
<I replied to Pumpkin, who *insightfully* and first-handedly pointed
out that
the type of rap the thread was talking about -- the lewd, vulgar,
misogynistic, perverted, and antihuman "gangsta" type -- was "perhaps
best
enjoyed by those who don't have to personally deal with the reality
that
fuels the lyrics." Will any of you deny the truth of what the she
said? Will
any of you dare to confirm it?>
I'll deny it. Who is she to decide what should be listened to in the
black community? We are responsible for our choices. Rap music does
not make anyone do anything. It is insulting to suggest it does.
And it's a copout for people who don't want to go into the ghetto and
effect real change. Abusive rap is a symptom and a story of a
community. The point is the truth hurts and some people don't want
to acknowledge what history has wrought.
<Someone asked what gangsta rap (or any other antihuman aberrant art
form,
which includes NIN, Marilyn Manson, neo-Nazi thrash metal, etc.) has
to do
with unschooling? Everything. It is all round us. It is where we
work, where
we shop, what we see at the movies. It isn't a black thing, and if I
gave the
impression that I think it is, and that I hate it for that reason,
then you
again misread me, and also missed my point about the four black
artists.>
Maybe you should change your focus. Listen to what it's telling you
instead of shutting down because it's not sweet and light. Calling
it antihuman is stupid. The artist are human. Anger is human.
Anger fuels angry art, in all mediums. Maybe you should concentrate
on WHY the anger is manifest. Instead of WHAT the anger produces.
That's the only way to get to HOW to change society. And some
understanding.
<It appears there are some sacred cows, or visions, at this list that
can't
handle contrary ideas without becoming offended. If I have done the
verbal
equivalent of raping your mothers, selling drugs to your sons, or
prostituting your daughters (all subjects celebrated in gangsta rap),
I would
love to hear about it. I will truly repent at that point>
Imagine if I ever wrote this in seriousness:
"The pornography that is christianity. Christianity is a cesspool of
hypocrisy, rapist, money-grubbers and charletans. What are they
selling to our youth?"
All of the above can be found in christianity but to paint that as
the whole of christianity is wrong. Tell me you wouldn't be
offended. And if I said I wasn't referring to the UU's which has
redeeming qualities you'd dismiss me.
Like Too Short raps "You talk a good game but I don't believe in you"
Cherry in GA
Fetteroll
Calm down.
I don't have time to figure out the nuances of who meant what when they said
what so this is directed at whoever is guilty. Don't assume I mean you just
because I'm directing this generally. Check to see if the shoe fits. If it
does, it's yours.
If you (general) say "you" (specific) or someone's name, they're going to
take it personally. That's not a directive to stop saying "you". It's a
simple cause and effect for those of us who don't pick up interpersonal
stuff as quickly as others.
If someone doesn't intend for it to sound personal, remember intent doesn't
come acros. Only our words do.
So let's drop the personal stuff and discuss the ideas -- which *might* be
censorship and the effects of media on society. There seems to be some major
confusion about what anyone means, so stating clearly what you *do* mean
rather than arguing that you didn't mean what someone says you mean would
help a great deal in moving the conversation along in a effective direction.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
I don't have time to figure out the nuances of who meant what when they said
what so this is directed at whoever is guilty. Don't assume I mean you just
because I'm directing this generally. Check to see if the shoe fits. If it
does, it's yours.
If you (general) say "you" (specific) or someone's name, they're going to
take it personally. That's not a directive to stop saying "you". It's a
simple cause and effect for those of us who don't pick up interpersonal
stuff as quickly as others.
If someone doesn't intend for it to sound personal, remember intent doesn't
come acros. Only our words do.
So let's drop the personal stuff and discuss the ideas -- which *might* be
censorship and the effects of media on society. There seems to be some major
confusion about what anyone means, so stating clearly what you *do* mean
rather than arguing that you didn't mean what someone says you mean would
help a great deal in moving the conversation along in a effective direction.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
Fetteroll
on 8/26/02 3:53 AM, winnierfm@... at winnierfm@... wrote:
field of what you need! ;-)
some people. Getting used to using the delete key helps.
I know I have a problem with the delete key, fearing I'll miss something
useful to me buring in the stuff that doesn't interest me ;-) But the whole
world is overloading us with information and learning how to filter is
becoming a very self-protecting skill!
Joyce
> I don't know if anyone will care about this...but I am a "newbie" and I doWhat's the thing that troubles you most? (Besides a list that wanders far a
> need my hand held...especially in dealing with family.
field of what you need! ;-)
> I don't need to readEven when there isn't arguing, there will be stuff that isn't relevant to
> a bunch of arguing...I don't have time for it.
some people. Getting used to using the delete key helps.
I know I have a problem with the delete key, fearing I'll miss something
useful to me buring in the stuff that doesn't interest me ;-) But the whole
world is overloading us with information and learning how to filter is
becoming a very self-protecting skill!
Joyce
Stephanie Elms
>Hi Tanya. I am another lurking "newbie" but have been on the list for
> I don't know if anyone will care about this...but I am a
> "newbie" and I do
> need my hand held...especially in dealing with family. I
> don't need to read
> a bunch of arguing...I don't have time for it.
a several months now. And I have to say that I have learned *so* much
so far. My oldest son is 5.5 and we are "opting out of kindergarten" this
year (will be "officially hsing next year). This list truly is a wonderful
resource and I have been finding myself doing a lot of re-thinking about ways
that I do things. Funnily enough, unschooling does not seem like a huge leap
for me, as I have seen over and over again how much my son learns without
anything "formal" from me (not completely there, but it is mostly working on
my mindset rather then my actions). What has been really "rocking my world"
has been looking at un-ing other aspects of my parenting...like tv restrictions,
junk food limitations, chores etc. Kind of exciting but scary too.
I just wanted to say that there is a lot to be gained here in between the bickering.
So don't give up! You might also check out unschooling.com...you can search the
archives (I just got finished reading all the messages related to tv limits!).
Just a little support from another newbie who has been here long enough to see the
benefit!
Stephanie
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/26/02 9:03:59 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
have today because I might miss something vital :) I have a problem with
filtering.
This list has provided much info and the conversation on grandparents is
exactly what I need to hear. My inlaws are planning on paying for private
school. (As if the problem is just public schools.) I had thought of
sending the boys to a Montessori or Waldorf school but I don't totally agree
with either approach.
And of course, without arguing people wouldn't be able to change their mind.
If we were all the same it would probably be boring wouldn't it?
On the one hand I feel so comfortable with unschooling...look at what my son
who isn't even 2 1/2 has already learned...letters and numbers, shapes and
colors. He loves books. I mean it is astonishing and he learned it all by
unschooling (although I didn't realize it could be called that.)
On the other hand, my brother's first wife was unschooled and she couldn't
read until she was 14. Her mother didn't do anything to try to make their
lives interesting (like trips to libraries or museums or whatever.) 5 of her
kids had no problem this way but my sis in law did. So I worry about the
what ifs...and what I would do then.
It is hard to prove to me that it will work even though I "know" it will.
After all, I've never gotten a 4 yr degree but I know I've learned more by
reading lots then some with degrees.
I like this list...and I'm glad that it has people on it who have lots of
experience :)
Tanya
mom to Andrew Jordan 4/1/00 and Eli Hunter 10/29/01
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within
himself
--Galileo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> I know I have a problem with the delete key, fearing I'll miss somethingYou are right of course...I have to read every one of the 100+ messages I
> useful to me buring in the stuff that doesn't interest me ;-) But the whole
> world is overloading us with information and learning how to filter is
> becoming a very self-protecting skill!
have today because I might miss something vital :) I have a problem with
filtering.
This list has provided much info and the conversation on grandparents is
exactly what I need to hear. My inlaws are planning on paying for private
school. (As if the problem is just public schools.) I had thought of
sending the boys to a Montessori or Waldorf school but I don't totally agree
with either approach.
And of course, without arguing people wouldn't be able to change their mind.
If we were all the same it would probably be boring wouldn't it?
On the one hand I feel so comfortable with unschooling...look at what my son
who isn't even 2 1/2 has already learned...letters and numbers, shapes and
colors. He loves books. I mean it is astonishing and he learned it all by
unschooling (although I didn't realize it could be called that.)
On the other hand, my brother's first wife was unschooled and she couldn't
read until she was 14. Her mother didn't do anything to try to make their
lives interesting (like trips to libraries or museums or whatever.) 5 of her
kids had no problem this way but my sis in law did. So I worry about the
what ifs...and what I would do then.
It is hard to prove to me that it will work even though I "know" it will.
After all, I've never gotten a 4 yr degree but I know I've learned more by
reading lots then some with degrees.
I like this list...and I'm glad that it has people on it who have lots of
experience :)
Tanya
mom to Andrew Jordan 4/1/00 and Eli Hunter 10/29/01
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within
himself
--Galileo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]