Re: Eminem -- Long
[email protected]
Dear pumpkin_kisses (sorry, I don't know your name),
You wrote: "Many young men of the underclass live lives where the gun-toting,
bitch smacking, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, and sociopathic ideals
expressed in rap music do nothing to improve their day to day existence. So,
perhaps gangsta rap is best enjoyed by those who don't have to personally
deal with the reality that fuels the lyrics."
This is brilliant and true. Indeed, when the safe and protected children of
anointed families spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year to
entertain themselves on the pornography that is rap music, clearly the
chickens have yet to come home to roost. But when white and wealthy Johnny
skips karate class or soccer and instead rapes the 12 year old girl down the
road, "keepin' it real" like the "homies" he respects so much on his CD's,
then Mom and Dad will have to deal with the reality. But for now ...
Here is Stanley Crouch: "Snarling racial alienation is just one more item on
the adolescent shopping list. The suburban white kid in search of savages
noble and ignoble doesn't have to apply for a passport, put on a pith helmet,
get inoculations, purchase expensive plane tickets, hire a guide, buy
mosquito netting, and the rest of it. All he or she has to do is go to the
record shop or turn on cable television. The alienated white adolescent then
symbolically reaches down to pat the cap turned backwards on the head of the
black commodity that has expressed 'rock-n-roll anarchy' to a fare-the-well.
Ivory and ebony, ebony and ivory. They have worked it out.
"In essence, the cable television executives and the record producers are no
different than the South American drug lords who reside in palaces and on
grounds that are paeans to overstatement while supplying the powders that
increase the desperation and speed the decay of the slums. These developments
are as harrowing as the biracial cooperation that was essential to the slave
trade. We observe the white captains of media industry profiting from the
marketing of the ethos of the black pirates of the streets."
Crouch tells us that, "[F]or the bulk of white rap fans, the surliest rap
recordings and videos [will] function as experiences somewhere between
viewing the natives boiling the middle class in a pot of profanity and the
thrill of gawking at a killer shark in an audio aquarium."
Sandra Dodd interpreted what you wrote as if you were saying that you
consider a different sort of music ought to be "imposed" upon those living
rough lives. But hope that the gangsta rap music establishment -- and the
pathologies that fuel it -- might someday crumble, is no "imposition" of
whatever music might take its place. Moreover, the lifting up of norms and
standards of behavior and art is also no "imposition."
Others at this list seem to see the refusal to allow such pornography into
one's home as an unacceptable form of censorship. ("It may offend you, but
your child may see something different in it.") If rape, racism, misogyny,
drug use, and violent hatred are evils for everyone, everywhere, and at all
times, then those who are entertained by as much ought to be ashamed of
themselves. That the odd child may have a sociological attraction to such
things is something different altogether and also very rare.
I saw nowhere in your post that you are "refusing to listen to expressions of
frustration" found in your community. But Sandra Dodd saw it, and reminds us
that "refusing to listen to expressions of frustration doesn't lessen the
frustration." Has it crossed her mind that refusing to listen may take the
profit out of the frustration, and convince a generation of *human beings*
that it's high time they aspired to behave as such? That the "underclass"
with its sociopaths have become museum pieces for more enlightened
homeschoolers to study doesn't lessen the imperative.
Sandra Dodd asked, "Would there be less violence without the accompanying
music?" It's a good question, but one that doesn't demand a cut and dry
answer in order for change to happen. Whether or not the lifestyle or the
music ought to go first is beside the point. They both fuel each other, and
for those suffering from the exploitation, it matters not which part first
shuts down, but only that it ends.
The gangsta culture is just that -- a culture, with its own art, rules,
taboos, goals, norms, and visions. Consider the place that rap music
currently holds in our society, and then ask yourself if the gangsta life
hasn't been an astronomical success, for both its protagonists and their
chroniclers? Change will not come from within.
There is a simple answer, though it requires that we slip out from under the
comfortable liberal and relativistic vision, and face truth. Again, Stanley
Crouch: "What must be done is rather obvious. The values of civilized
behavior must be reestablished and defined as fundamental beyond race. No one
in this society should be encouraged to believe that excellence, mastery of
our national language, tasteful dress, reliability, or any of the virtues
that bring vitality to a society are the sole province of the white
population."
If my post is offensive, or insulting, so be it. Rap culture and its
apologists are every bit as offensive.
Bob Sale
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You wrote: "Many young men of the underclass live lives where the gun-toting,
bitch smacking, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, and sociopathic ideals
expressed in rap music do nothing to improve their day to day existence. So,
perhaps gangsta rap is best enjoyed by those who don't have to personally
deal with the reality that fuels the lyrics."
This is brilliant and true. Indeed, when the safe and protected children of
anointed families spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year to
entertain themselves on the pornography that is rap music, clearly the
chickens have yet to come home to roost. But when white and wealthy Johnny
skips karate class or soccer and instead rapes the 12 year old girl down the
road, "keepin' it real" like the "homies" he respects so much on his CD's,
then Mom and Dad will have to deal with the reality. But for now ...
Here is Stanley Crouch: "Snarling racial alienation is just one more item on
the adolescent shopping list. The suburban white kid in search of savages
noble and ignoble doesn't have to apply for a passport, put on a pith helmet,
get inoculations, purchase expensive plane tickets, hire a guide, buy
mosquito netting, and the rest of it. All he or she has to do is go to the
record shop or turn on cable television. The alienated white adolescent then
symbolically reaches down to pat the cap turned backwards on the head of the
black commodity that has expressed 'rock-n-roll anarchy' to a fare-the-well.
Ivory and ebony, ebony and ivory. They have worked it out.
"In essence, the cable television executives and the record producers are no
different than the South American drug lords who reside in palaces and on
grounds that are paeans to overstatement while supplying the powders that
increase the desperation and speed the decay of the slums. These developments
are as harrowing as the biracial cooperation that was essential to the slave
trade. We observe the white captains of media industry profiting from the
marketing of the ethos of the black pirates of the streets."
Crouch tells us that, "[F]or the bulk of white rap fans, the surliest rap
recordings and videos [will] function as experiences somewhere between
viewing the natives boiling the middle class in a pot of profanity and the
thrill of gawking at a killer shark in an audio aquarium."
Sandra Dodd interpreted what you wrote as if you were saying that you
consider a different sort of music ought to be "imposed" upon those living
rough lives. But hope that the gangsta rap music establishment -- and the
pathologies that fuel it -- might someday crumble, is no "imposition" of
whatever music might take its place. Moreover, the lifting up of norms and
standards of behavior and art is also no "imposition."
Others at this list seem to see the refusal to allow such pornography into
one's home as an unacceptable form of censorship. ("It may offend you, but
your child may see something different in it.") If rape, racism, misogyny,
drug use, and violent hatred are evils for everyone, everywhere, and at all
times, then those who are entertained by as much ought to be ashamed of
themselves. That the odd child may have a sociological attraction to such
things is something different altogether and also very rare.
I saw nowhere in your post that you are "refusing to listen to expressions of
frustration" found in your community. But Sandra Dodd saw it, and reminds us
that "refusing to listen to expressions of frustration doesn't lessen the
frustration." Has it crossed her mind that refusing to listen may take the
profit out of the frustration, and convince a generation of *human beings*
that it's high time they aspired to behave as such? That the "underclass"
with its sociopaths have become museum pieces for more enlightened
homeschoolers to study doesn't lessen the imperative.
Sandra Dodd asked, "Would there be less violence without the accompanying
music?" It's a good question, but one that doesn't demand a cut and dry
answer in order for change to happen. Whether or not the lifestyle or the
music ought to go first is beside the point. They both fuel each other, and
for those suffering from the exploitation, it matters not which part first
shuts down, but only that it ends.
The gangsta culture is just that -- a culture, with its own art, rules,
taboos, goals, norms, and visions. Consider the place that rap music
currently holds in our society, and then ask yourself if the gangsta life
hasn't been an astronomical success, for both its protagonists and their
chroniclers? Change will not come from within.
There is a simple answer, though it requires that we slip out from under the
comfortable liberal and relativistic vision, and face truth. Again, Stanley
Crouch: "What must be done is rather obvious. The values of civilized
behavior must be reestablished and defined as fundamental beyond race. No one
in this society should be encouraged to believe that excellence, mastery of
our national language, tasteful dress, reliability, or any of the virtues
that bring vitality to a society are the sole province of the white
population."
If my post is offensive, or insulting, so be it. Rap culture and its
apologists are every bit as offensive.
Bob Sale
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gerard Westenberg
<If my post is offensive, or insulting, so be it. Rap culture and its apologists are every bit as offensive. >
And much of what people have done, in the name of culture or education or civilization or religion, has been violent and offensive, too. Which is not giving a blanket okay to gangsta rap, pornography, you name it. I am just recognising that there always seems to be this violence and frustration. There are many things, I am sure, that can be/should be considered in order to address this. But I am looking just at my own home and family atm. So, what works for us, is to expose the children to beauty, without censoring the bad or censuring their tastes..Leonie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And much of what people have done, in the name of culture or education or civilization or religion, has been violent and offensive, too. Which is not giving a blanket okay to gangsta rap, pornography, you name it. I am just recognising that there always seems to be this violence and frustration. There are many things, I am sure, that can be/should be considered in order to address this. But I am looking just at my own home and family atm. So, what works for us, is to expose the children to beauty, without censoring the bad or censuring their tastes..Leonie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/25/2002 2:18:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
westen@... writes:
What is offensive about the rap culture (or the thrash metal culture, etc.)
is not the bad language, or the violence. It is that it is a cowardly
retreat, a failure of morale, an unwillingness to face head on the
shortcomings of human nature. You don't abuse and leave your "bitch" because
she's not living up to your expectations, or because she caught the eye of
someone else. You don't cower into a self-indulgent ghetto because "the man"
isn't fair, or your parents messed you up. You take your tragedy and you work
it.
Have we learned nothing from Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Ralph Ellison,
Dorothy Dandrich? These folks faced the evil head on, engaged it, and shot
for something higher. But such an undertaking requires that one believe in
"higher," or "better."
Always playing the victim, and supporting and encouraging the victim, is
cowardly, and un-American.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
westen@... writes:
> And much of what people have done, in the name of culture or education orLeonie,
> civilization or religion, has been violent and offensive, too.
What is offensive about the rap culture (or the thrash metal culture, etc.)
is not the bad language, or the violence. It is that it is a cowardly
retreat, a failure of morale, an unwillingness to face head on the
shortcomings of human nature. You don't abuse and leave your "bitch" because
she's not living up to your expectations, or because she caught the eye of
someone else. You don't cower into a self-indulgent ghetto because "the man"
isn't fair, or your parents messed you up. You take your tragedy and you work
it.
Have we learned nothing from Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Ralph Ellison,
Dorothy Dandrich? These folks faced the evil head on, engaged it, and shot
for something higher. But such an undertaking requires that one believe in
"higher," or "better."
Always playing the victim, and supporting and encouraging the victim, is
cowardly, and un-American.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Bob,
You named me by full name three times in your commentary.
If you want to shame me by full name, my middle name is "Lynn," so you can,
if you wish, say "Sandra Lynn Dodd, you should be ashamed of yourself." Like
my mom used to. If that will make you feel better.
-=-when the safe and protected children of
anointed families spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year to
entertain themselves on the pornography that is rap music, clearly the
chickens have yet to come home to roost. -=-
Guess how many rap albums reside in my house?
None.
There are a few parodies on a South Park CD we have, and one on an Weird Al.
The boys have seen videos on TV. Music shows, movie soundtracks...
So using my name three times doesn't change any facts in MY life.
If you said the Rio Grande should be dammed up so there would have been no
drought in New Mexico, would you have gotten angry if I had suggested that
the Rio Grande cannot BE dammed up and that if we tried we'd only flood
thousands of homes and the river would still continue its way toward the Gulf
of Mexico? It's a heck of a slope from the mountains on top of the Colorado
Plateau to sea level.
ESPECIALLY in America, you nor you and the president's army can stop freedom
of expression, and that includes musical expression.
Saying rap music shouldn't exist is like saying scabs shouldn't exist. They
do. If you want to stop the scab, try to prevent the original wounds.
But trying to prevent wounds in the sense of trying to prevent all urban
realities is trying to dam up the Rio Grande.
-=-The alienated white adolescent then
symbolically reaches down to pat the cap turned backwards on the head of the
black commodity that has expressed 'rock-n-roll anarchy' to a fare-the-well.
-=-
In which generation was this not true? Have you ever seen "The Wild Ones"?
"Easy Rider"?
-=-Have we learned nothing from Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Ralph
Ellison,
Dorothy Dandrich? These folks faced the evil head on, engaged it, and shot
for something higher. But such an undertaking requires that one believe in
"higher," or "better." -=-
Are you suggesting that jazz used to be clean and uplifting? That
early-20th-century American blues wasn't about sex and drugs and shooting
them that done you wrong?
Are you suggesting that there are no African-Americans involved in "normal"
fiction or theatre or mainstream music, but that they're all doing rap?
I don't see what your list has to do with a form of music which has been
around on the radio and other mainstream venues for over twenty years.
-=-Always playing the victim, and supporting and encouraging the victim, is
cowardly, and un-American.-=-
This will seem a change of subject, but it isn't at all. Kathy Ward, one of
the presenters of the workshop on video gaming, came across and shared with
us an article on violence in comic books and other media kids like, and to
help you with your problem of characterizing swaths of young people as
"un-American," I think it's worth reading.
http://www.motherjones.com/reality_check/violent_media.html
To use my name THREE TIMES in your tirade is about like blaming me for it
being summertime. Life goes on, and you can't stop life, the Rio Grande or
rap music. You don't have to buy any. I never have.
Sandra
You named me by full name three times in your commentary.
If you want to shame me by full name, my middle name is "Lynn," so you can,
if you wish, say "Sandra Lynn Dodd, you should be ashamed of yourself." Like
my mom used to. If that will make you feel better.
-=-when the safe and protected children of
anointed families spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year to
entertain themselves on the pornography that is rap music, clearly the
chickens have yet to come home to roost. -=-
Guess how many rap albums reside in my house?
None.
There are a few parodies on a South Park CD we have, and one on an Weird Al.
The boys have seen videos on TV. Music shows, movie soundtracks...
So using my name three times doesn't change any facts in MY life.
If you said the Rio Grande should be dammed up so there would have been no
drought in New Mexico, would you have gotten angry if I had suggested that
the Rio Grande cannot BE dammed up and that if we tried we'd only flood
thousands of homes and the river would still continue its way toward the Gulf
of Mexico? It's a heck of a slope from the mountains on top of the Colorado
Plateau to sea level.
ESPECIALLY in America, you nor you and the president's army can stop freedom
of expression, and that includes musical expression.
Saying rap music shouldn't exist is like saying scabs shouldn't exist. They
do. If you want to stop the scab, try to prevent the original wounds.
But trying to prevent wounds in the sense of trying to prevent all urban
realities is trying to dam up the Rio Grande.
-=-The alienated white adolescent then
symbolically reaches down to pat the cap turned backwards on the head of the
black commodity that has expressed 'rock-n-roll anarchy' to a fare-the-well.
-=-
In which generation was this not true? Have you ever seen "The Wild Ones"?
"Easy Rider"?
-=-Have we learned nothing from Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Ralph
Ellison,
Dorothy Dandrich? These folks faced the evil head on, engaged it, and shot
for something higher. But such an undertaking requires that one believe in
"higher," or "better." -=-
Are you suggesting that jazz used to be clean and uplifting? That
early-20th-century American blues wasn't about sex and drugs and shooting
them that done you wrong?
Are you suggesting that there are no African-Americans involved in "normal"
fiction or theatre or mainstream music, but that they're all doing rap?
I don't see what your list has to do with a form of music which has been
around on the radio and other mainstream venues for over twenty years.
-=-Always playing the victim, and supporting and encouraging the victim, is
cowardly, and un-American.-=-
This will seem a change of subject, but it isn't at all. Kathy Ward, one of
the presenters of the workshop on video gaming, came across and shared with
us an article on violence in comic books and other media kids like, and to
help you with your problem of characterizing swaths of young people as
"un-American," I think it's worth reading.
http://www.motherjones.com/reality_check/violent_media.html
To use my name THREE TIMES in your tirade is about like blaming me for it
being summertime. Life goes on, and you can't stop life, the Rio Grande or
rap music. You don't have to buy any. I never have.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/25/2002 9:58:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about you.
You're not that important.]
the places where I said as much)?
Again, where did I say anything about trying to prevent all urban realities?
my argument -- and she would be the first to agree with me. I asked about the
lessons learned, as an example, from four specific artists. You completely
missed my point.
de Sade wrote about brothers and sisters having anal sex with each other.
Shall I no longer argue against such a thing? Shall I no longer encourage and
support those who aspire to something greater in life and art, and who are
attempting to reintroduce humane norms and standards back into American
culture?
You're quite a musicologist aren't you? My post has everything to do with it.
Did you not read it? Is there a twenty year statute of limitations on
perversion and sociopathy in art?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> You named me by full name three times in your commentary.That's because you said three things that needed to be addressed.
>
>If you want to shame me ...Where did I do that?
>Guess how many rap albums reside in my house?I wasn't talking about you. But I'm glad you don't have any. [Hint: because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about you.
You're not that important.]
>Neither you nor the President ... can stop freedom of expression.What gave you the impression I want to do such a thing (I'm serious -- site
the places where I said as much)?
>By trying to prevent ... all urban realities, is like trying to dam up theRio Grande
Again, where did I say anything about trying to prevent all urban realities?
>Are you suggesting that jazz used to be clean and uplifting?Not at all. That Bessie Smith sang crude songs on occasion doesn't invalidate
my argument -- and she would be the first to agree with me. I asked about the
lessons learned, as an example, from four specific artists. You completely
missed my point.
de Sade wrote about brothers and sisters having anal sex with each other.
Shall I no longer argue against such a thing? Shall I no longer encourage and
support those who aspire to something greater in life and art, and who are
attempting to reintroduce humane norms and standards back into American
culture?
>I don't see what your list has to do with a form of music which has beenaround for twenty years
You're quite a musicologist aren't you? My post has everything to do with it.
Did you not read it? Is there a twenty year statute of limitations on
perversion and sociopathy in art?
>Life goes on and you can't stop lifeYou call that living?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gerard Westenberg
<Always playing the victim, and supporting and encouraging the victim, is cowardly, and un-American.>
Interesting statement Bob - let me think about it, okay?...Especially the last part - un-American - I'm not American anyway! lol! ..Leionie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Interesting statement Bob - let me think about it, okay?...Especially the last part - un-American - I'm not American anyway! lol! ..Leionie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/25/02 3:06:48 PM, rsale515@... writes:
<< I wasn't talking about you. But I'm glad you don't have any. [Hint:
because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about you.
You're not that important.] >>
<< I wasn't talking about you. But I'm glad you don't have any. [Hint:
because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about you.
You're not that important.] >>
[email protected]
Bob wrote, either of me or not-about-me-because-I'm-not-important,
<< You're quite a musicologist aren't you? My post has everything to do with
it.
Did you not read it? Is there a twenty year statute of limitations on
perversion and sociopathy in art? >>
I'm thinking perhaps this is about me.
Actually I'm not bad as a musicologist. I've been really interested in
traditional music and in different forms since I was little. Nine's the
first I remember, but I really started collecting stuff and researching it
the summer I turned fifteen.
How are you with realizing there are some things you can't change? I guess
that would be being a realist.
<<>Life goes on and you can't stop life
<<You call that living?>>
I think what humans do is life. Trying to stop them is futile.
Trying to shame others who defend them doesn't really hurt the authors or
speakers or musicians. It doesn't hurt those who made the observations that
this music is neither new nor preventable.
What it does hurt, when one says something nonsensical or gratuitiously
insulting, is the reputation of that writer, or speaker.
Are you aware that Eminem isn't Black? In some sort of parallel or example,
you named four Black artists of decades past.
Maybe it wasn't about him, although it did have his name in the subject line.
-=-"White America," the first song on the album, is a satirical look at why
he's seen as the Big Bad Wolf with a mic. "Hip-hop is never a problem in
Harlem, only in Boston," he says. Em concedes that if he were African
American, maybe people wouldn't be as fascinated with him and that his record
sales would probably be cut in half. -=-
And what did you really intend for this to mean?
-=- because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about you.
You're not that important.-=-
-=-Neither you nor the President ... can stop freedom of expression.
-=-What gave you the impression I want to do such a thing (I'm serious --
site
the places where I said as much)?-=-
The word is "cite," and the entire tone of your post was that it should be
preventable, stopped, not bought. When you talked about it being unAmerican,
maybe you didn't mean against freedom of expression.
Sandra
<< You're quite a musicologist aren't you? My post has everything to do with
it.
Did you not read it? Is there a twenty year statute of limitations on
perversion and sociopathy in art? >>
I'm thinking perhaps this is about me.
Actually I'm not bad as a musicologist. I've been really interested in
traditional music and in different forms since I was little. Nine's the
first I remember, but I really started collecting stuff and researching it
the summer I turned fifteen.
How are you with realizing there are some things you can't change? I guess
that would be being a realist.
<<>Life goes on and you can't stop life
<<You call that living?>>
I think what humans do is life. Trying to stop them is futile.
Trying to shame others who defend them doesn't really hurt the authors or
speakers or musicians. It doesn't hurt those who made the observations that
this music is neither new nor preventable.
What it does hurt, when one says something nonsensical or gratuitiously
insulting, is the reputation of that writer, or speaker.
Are you aware that Eminem isn't Black? In some sort of parallel or example,
you named four Black artists of decades past.
Maybe it wasn't about him, although it did have his name in the subject line.
-=-"White America," the first song on the album, is a satirical look at why
he's seen as the Big Bad Wolf with a mic. "Hip-hop is never a problem in
Harlem, only in Boston," he says. Em concedes that if he were African
American, maybe people wouldn't be as fascinated with him and that his record
sales would probably be cut in half. -=-
And what did you really intend for this to mean?
-=- because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about you.
You're not that important.-=-
-=-Neither you nor the President ... can stop freedom of expression.
-=-What gave you the impression I want to do such a thing (I'm serious --
site
the places where I said as much)?-=-
The word is "cite," and the entire tone of your post was that it should be
preventable, stopped, not bought. When you talked about it being unAmerican,
maybe you didn't mean against freedom of expression.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
><Always playing the victim, and supporting and encouraging the victim, isI still haven't figured out what America has to do with it anyway. Just
>cowardly, and un-American.>
>
> Interesting statement Bob - let me think about it, okay?...Especially
> the last part - un-American - I'm not American anyway! lol! ..Leionie
because the artist is American? I tend to be very suspicious of anyone who
calls something un-American, having grown up in the States during the
McCarthy era.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Jane
Someone please remind me what this has to do with unschooling. Thanks,
Jane
-----Original Message-----
From: rsale515@... [mailto:rsale515@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Eminem -- Long
In a message dated 8/25/2002 9:58:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about
you.
You're not that important.]
site
the places where I said as much)?
Rio Grande
Again, where did I say anything about trying to prevent all urban
realities?
invalidate
my argument -- and she would be the first to agree with me. I asked
about the
lessons learned, as an example, from four specific artists. You
completely
missed my point.
de Sade wrote about brothers and sisters having anal sex with each
other.
Shall I no longer argue against such a thing? Shall I no longer
encourage and
support those who aspire to something greater in life and art, and who
are
attempting to reintroduce humane norms and standards back into American
culture?
around for twenty years
You're quite a musicologist aren't you? My post has everything to do
with it.
Did you not read it? Is there a twenty year statute of limitations on
perversion and sociopathy in art?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jane
-----Original Message-----
From: rsale515@... [mailto:rsale515@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Eminem -- Long
In a message dated 8/25/2002 9:58:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> You named me by full name three times in your commentary.That's because you said three things that needed to be addressed.
>
>If you want to shame me ...Where did I do that?
>Guess how many rap albums reside in my house?I wasn't talking about you. But I'm glad you don't have any. [Hint:
because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about
you.
You're not that important.]
>Neither you nor the President ... can stop freedom of expression.What gave you the impression I want to do such a thing (I'm serious --
site
the places where I said as much)?
>By trying to prevent ... all urban realities, is like trying to dam upthe
Rio Grande
Again, where did I say anything about trying to prevent all urban
realities?
>Are you suggesting that jazz used to be clean and uplifting?Not at all. That Bessie Smith sang crude songs on occasion doesn't
invalidate
my argument -- and she would be the first to agree with me. I asked
about the
lessons learned, as an example, from four specific artists. You
completely
missed my point.
de Sade wrote about brothers and sisters having anal sex with each
other.
Shall I no longer argue against such a thing? Shall I no longer
encourage and
support those who aspire to something greater in life and art, and who
are
attempting to reintroduce humane norms and standards back into American
culture?
>I don't see what your list has to do with a form of music which hasbeen
around for twenty years
You're quite a musicologist aren't you? My post has everything to do
with it.
Did you not read it? Is there a twenty year statute of limitations on
perversion and sociopathy in art?
>Life goes on and you can't stop lifeYou call that living?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Muday
Thanks Jane, Ditto, please explain.
Mary
Jane wrote:Someone please remind me what this has to do with unschooling. Thanks,
Jane
-----Original Message-----
From: rsale515@... [mailto:rsale515@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Eminem -- Long
In a message dated 8/25/2002 9:58:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about
you.
You're not that important.]
site
the places where I said as much)?
Rio Grande
Again, where did I say anything about trying to prevent all urban
realities?
invalidate
my argument -- and she would be the first to agree with me. I asked
about the
lessons learned, as an example, from four specific artists. You
completely
missed my point.
de Sade wrote about brothers and sisters having anal sex with each
other.
Shall I no longer argue against such a thing? Shall I no longer
encourage and
support those who aspire to something greater in life and art, and who
are
attempting to reintroduce humane norms and standards back into American
culture?
around for twenty years
You're quite a musicologist aren't you? My post has everything to do
with it.
Did you not read it? Is there a twenty year statute of limitations on
perversion and sociopathy in art?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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081972:HM/A=1182732/R=0/*http:/adfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/990-1736-1039-
333%0d%0a>
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owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Have a wonderful day, Mary Kathryn Lhotka-Muday
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
Jane wrote:Someone please remind me what this has to do with unschooling. Thanks,
Jane
-----Original Message-----
From: rsale515@... [mailto:rsale515@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Eminem -- Long
In a message dated 8/25/2002 9:58:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> You named me by full name three times in your commentary.That's because you said three things that needed to be addressed.
>
>If you want to shame me ...Where did I do that?
>Guess how many rap albums reside in my house?I wasn't talking about you. But I'm glad you don't have any. [Hint:
because
your name comes up a few times in a post, doesn't mean the post is about
you.
You're not that important.]
>Neither you nor the President ... can stop freedom of expression.What gave you the impression I want to do such a thing (I'm serious --
site
the places where I said as much)?
>By trying to prevent ... all urban realities, is like trying to dam upthe
Rio Grande
Again, where did I say anything about trying to prevent all urban
realities?
>Are you suggesting that jazz used to be clean and uplifting?Not at all. That Bessie Smith sang crude songs on occasion doesn't
invalidate
my argument -- and she would be the first to agree with me. I asked
about the
lessons learned, as an example, from four specific artists. You
completely
missed my point.
de Sade wrote about brothers and sisters having anal sex with each
other.
Shall I no longer argue against such a thing? Shall I no longer
encourage and
support those who aspire to something greater in life and art, and who
are
attempting to reintroduce humane norms and standards back into American
culture?
>I don't see what your list has to do with a form of music which hasbeen
around for twenty years
You're quite a musicologist aren't you? My post has everything to do
with it.
Did you not read it? Is there a twenty year statute of limitations on
perversion and sociopathy in art?
>Life goes on and you can't stop lifeYou call that living?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=228862.2128520.3581629.2204139/D=egroupweb/S=1705
081972:HM/A=1182732/R=0/*http:/adfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/990-1736-1039-
333%0d%0a>
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Have a wonderful day, Mary Kathryn Lhotka-Muday
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/25/2002 3:32:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
westen@... writes:
This wasn't addressed to you as if I disagreed with what you were saying, nor
was anything in that reply posted with you in mind. I appreciated what you
were getting at. Also, by "support and encouraging the victim," I meant
monetarily -- buying their products. I meant nothing about not giving moral
support and encouragement to victims, as well we should.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
westen@... writes:
> Interesting statement Bob - let me think about it, okay?...Especially theLeonie,
> last part - un-American - I'm not American anyway! lol! ..Leionie
This wasn't addressed to you as if I disagreed with what you were saying, nor
was anything in that reply posted with you in mind. I appreciated what you
were getting at. Also, by "support and encouraging the victim," I meant
monetarily -- buying their products. I meant nothing about not giving moral
support and encouragement to victims, as well we should.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gerard Westenberg
<,Also, by "support and encouraging the victim," I meant monetarily -- buying their products.>>
I understand, Bob. Its just that there are things I wouldn't support with my money but my older kids do - kwim? This causes a lot of discussion in our house. Its their choice how they spend their money... On a related topic, not rap :-) , the younger boys, too, want to buy things that I feel are pure commercialism. We talk about this.Yet, I buy the stuff for them, or they buy it with their money, - all the while I know my money is going to support some companies with which I disagree, but knowing that the stuff often is part of a good experience for the boys..Leonie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I understand, Bob. Its just that there are things I wouldn't support with my money but my older kids do - kwim? This causes a lot of discussion in our house. Its their choice how they spend their money... On a related topic, not rap :-) , the younger boys, too, want to buy things that I feel are pure commercialism. We talk about this.Yet, I buy the stuff for them, or they buy it with their money, - all the while I know my money is going to support some companies with which I disagree, but knowing that the stuff often is part of a good experience for the boys..Leonie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]