Re:2265 re: "great phrases"
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/20/02 12:11 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
As I understood the request, it was for ways to turn her house into a
billboard about how good Unschooling is. Being directly across the street
from the public school, the implication was clear to me that she wanted to
say something positive about not going to school to everyone in that school,
and intended to do it every day.
We didn't hear about her motive, so it was easy to assume that she was
trying to 1. Tell them that she supported homeschooling/unschooling, 2. She
wanted to attract attention to her position and 3. wanted to find new people
who might be interested in home/unschooling.
At the same time, by requesting "great phrases" she was clearly not trying
to avoid controversy and was, in fact, asking for a confrontation if she
persisted. "Great unschooling phrases" cannot help but carry the implication
that school sucks, it seems to me.
My point was that in the slight possibility that she didn't understand the
above, I felt it helpful to tell her that teachers and their unions are
extremely defensive of their jobs and their work, and when they are
threatened, will lash out. They will always say, however, that whatever they
do is "for the children." Of course, that is never true.
[email protected] wrote:
>Ned's turn again:
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:23:45 -0400
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: 2260 unschooling phrases, etc
>
> on 8/19/02 11:36 PM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
>
>> If an unschooling phrase doesn't say anything bad about schools, it's not a
>> great phrase.
>
> Why should unschoolers focus on the badness of schools at all? Isn't that
> focusing on the blot we left behind rather than focusing the whole rest of
> the world?
>
> Joyce
>
>
As I understood the request, it was for ways to turn her house into a
billboard about how good Unschooling is. Being directly across the street
from the public school, the implication was clear to me that she wanted to
say something positive about not going to school to everyone in that school,
and intended to do it every day.
We didn't hear about her motive, so it was easy to assume that she was
trying to 1. Tell them that she supported homeschooling/unschooling, 2. She
wanted to attract attention to her position and 3. wanted to find new people
who might be interested in home/unschooling.
At the same time, by requesting "great phrases" she was clearly not trying
to avoid controversy and was, in fact, asking for a confrontation if she
persisted. "Great unschooling phrases" cannot help but carry the implication
that school sucks, it seems to me.
My point was that in the slight possibility that she didn't understand the
above, I felt it helpful to tell her that teachers and their unions are
extremely defensive of their jobs and their work, and when they are
threatened, will lash out. They will always say, however, that whatever they
do is "for the children." Of course, that is never true.
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/20/02 8:50:09 PM, nedvare@... writes:
<< I felt it helpful to tell her that teachers and their unions are
extremely defensive of their jobs and their work, and when they are
threatened, will lash out. They will always say, however, that whatever they
do is "for the children." Of course, that is never true.
not to bash school, but you have stated in that same e-mail:
<<"Great unschooling phrases" cannot help but carry the implication
that school sucks, it seems to me.>>
YOU haven't figured out a way to live an unschooling life without focussing
on the suckitude of school. Many other people have, and this list is
intended to be in THAT vein, not in the political darkness you keep bringing
back.
Sandra
<< I felt it helpful to tell her that teachers and their unions are
extremely defensive of their jobs and their work, and when they are
threatened, will lash out. They will always say, however, that whatever they
do is "for the children." Of course, that is never true.
>>I'm really tired of the anti-school stuff, Ned. I would continue to ask you
not to bash school, but you have stated in that same e-mail:
<<"Great unschooling phrases" cannot help but carry the implication
that school sucks, it seems to me.>>
YOU haven't figured out a way to live an unschooling life without focussing
on the suckitude of school. Many other people have, and this list is
intended to be in THAT vein, not in the political darkness you keep bringing
back.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>They will always say, however, that whatever theyNever? So if I can come up with *one* teacher who really is doing it "for
>do is "for the children." Of course, that is never true.
the children", your whole thesis is going to fall apart.
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/20/2002 10:50:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nedvare@... writes:
of homeschooling and often tell me that if they didn't work, they
wouldhomeschool their own kids.
Amy Kagey
Back-to-school free shipping!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nedvare@... writes:
> My point was that in the slight possibility that she didn't understand theJust wanted to say that I have several friends who are teachers and approve
> above, I felt it helpful to tell her that teachers and their unions are
> extremely defensive of their jobs and their work, and when they are
> threatened, will lash out.
>
of homeschooling and often tell me that if they didn't work, they
wouldhomeschool their own kids.
Amy Kagey
Back-to-school free shipping!
<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366"> </A>U<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">sborne Books Online Catalog</A>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 8/20/02 10:49 PM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
it doesn't make:
*Maybe* what you mean is "A phrase won't draw the attention of confirmed
schoolers to unschooling unless it says something bad about school."
Not that that's true either. (True as in "I've been putting up phrases for
years and have talked to people about how they felt and studied the
resultant effects of various kinds of phrases.") Though it might be
someone's opinion/theory.
Words count. They are the trucks that carry what's in our heads to other
people's heads. If we use the wrong words, the message doesn't get
transfered. And in fact quite often a different message than the one we
intended to send gets transfered.
But good intentions don't change a false statement into a true one.
never met any. Why is every teacher *you've* met so selfish?
If every teacher you've met is selfish, isn't it possible that what you're
saying and the way you're saying it is attracting angry teachers to you? In
fact I'd bet you're *causing* a lot of angry responses in otherwise
reasonable teachers. It's becoming self-fulfilling.
Years ago on Phil Donahue there was an exotic dancer/model/stripper or
somesuch with enormous breasts. Her breasts were basically her career. And
she had nothing nice to say about men. She'd been raped 11 times or
something like that and was firmly convinced that every single man was just
inches away from dumping wife and family for a chance to get his hands on
her. She just wasn't in a position to see that her career wasn't going to
draw the good men to her, only the lowest element.
Schools are bad enough without exaggerating and falsifying what's going on.
We can help people understand why school feels so right and attractive
without blasting them with opinions that don't match their reality. I'd bet
the scare tactics are only effective on people burned by the system who are
looking for someone who shares their anger. It's going to shut the ears of
most everyone else.
Unschooling is for everyone drawn to more natural ways of learning, not just
those who hate school. In fact hating school shouldn't be a reason for
unschooling. Though it's a good reason for homeschooling. But how someone
goes about homeschooling should be based on their kids, not on their anger.
Joyce
> Being directly across the streetYour interpretation of her request or any of your other reasons for saying
> from the public school, the implication was clear to me that she wanted to
> say something positive about not going to school to everyone in that school,
> and intended to do it every day.
it doesn't make:
>> If an unschooling phrase doesn't say anything bad about schools, it's not aany more true than it was before, in or out of context.
>> great phrase.
*Maybe* what you mean is "A phrase won't draw the attention of confirmed
schoolers to unschooling unless it says something bad about school."
Not that that's true either. (True as in "I've been putting up phrases for
years and have talked to people about how they felt and studied the
resultant effects of various kinds of phrases.") Though it might be
someone's opinion/theory.
Words count. They are the trucks that carry what's in our heads to other
people's heads. If we use the wrong words, the message doesn't get
transfered. And in fact quite often a different message than the one we
intended to send gets transfered.
But good intentions don't change a false statement into a true one.
> I felt it helpful to tell her that teachers and their unions areNever? Where *are* all these selfish teachers you keep harping about? I've
> extremely defensive of their jobs and their work, and when they are
> threatened, will lash out. They will always say, however, that whatever they
> do is "for the children." Of course, that is never true.
never met any. Why is every teacher *you've* met so selfish?
If every teacher you've met is selfish, isn't it possible that what you're
saying and the way you're saying it is attracting angry teachers to you? In
fact I'd bet you're *causing* a lot of angry responses in otherwise
reasonable teachers. It's becoming self-fulfilling.
Years ago on Phil Donahue there was an exotic dancer/model/stripper or
somesuch with enormous breasts. Her breasts were basically her career. And
she had nothing nice to say about men. She'd been raped 11 times or
something like that and was firmly convinced that every single man was just
inches away from dumping wife and family for a chance to get his hands on
her. She just wasn't in a position to see that her career wasn't going to
draw the good men to her, only the lowest element.
Schools are bad enough without exaggerating and falsifying what's going on.
We can help people understand why school feels so right and attractive
without blasting them with opinions that don't match their reality. I'd bet
the scare tactics are only effective on people burned by the system who are
looking for someone who shares their anger. It's going to shut the ears of
most everyone else.
Unschooling is for everyone drawn to more natural ways of learning, not just
those who hate school. In fact hating school shouldn't be a reason for
unschooling. Though it's a good reason for homeschooling. But how someone
goes about homeschooling should be based on their kids, not on their anger.
Joyce
Tia Leschke
>So do I. Some of them actually *do* homeschool their kids. I think there
>Just wanted to say that I have several friends who are teachers and approve
>of homeschooling and often tell me that if they didn't work, they
>wouldhomeschool their own kids.
might even be one on this list.
I think Ned sees what he wants to see.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island