Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] newbie question replies to replies
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/19/02 2:45:10 PM, [email protected]
writes:
Diane comments:
<< He's been out of school only over the summer, I gather? >>
Yes only over the summer. Mostly he has spent the summer playing with the
neighborhood kids, and had just recently wrote several songs. He really did
not "write" music to them they are mostly about the words. It should be
interesting to see what happens when his friends go back to public school and
he doesn't. He was literally begging me to take him out of school.
<< Let him
know what you think and why you think it--vulgar lyrics, violence, etc.,
but give him the freedom to make his own choices. >>
I let him know how I feel about the language he uses, and he has no trouble
with being free..it is not really a matter of giving him the choice... he has
always kind of done what he wanted to and been willing to face the
consequences. He is exhibiting more control as he has grown older.
<< You want to make sure, though,
that in distancing yourself from music you dislike and disapprove of,
you don't dislike or disapprove of him. Sharing some of it together may
lead to some important communication. >>
I have shared some of this ... I let him download several Eminem songs and I
listened and let him keep one or two and deleted the rest...which he resented
but they were just awful. He does play music in his room and not to the
point where it is disturbing to others.
Lisa's comments:
<< And, buy him a guitar, keyboard, drum, or whatever instruments he is
interested in today. You also might help him (if he wants the help) to
become healthier in his body. Maybe a few long walks talking to you
might help him formulate his musical ideas and help him trim his body
(FOR HIMSELF, not for others). >>
Lisa all the questions you suggested in the rest of your reply were really
good questions. He has access to both a guitar and a full digital piano. As
far as his body image. He just spent an entire week with the cross country
team at his brothers high school up in the Sierras running up and down hills
and camping in the Giant Sequoias(running camp). The first thing he did when
he got home was to run weigh himself and came out literally crying because he
had gained two pounds. I talked with him about all the variations in weight
that could occur in any given day but it did not seem to make him feel any
better. I have also talked to him about food choices which is ultimately up
to him.
Marji writes:
<< It seems to me that
through your son's songwriting, he is taking you into his confidence; this
is a gift. >> <<I'm not sure if this is coming across they way I mean it to.
I just want
to say that if you can accept his feelings (the good, the bad, and the
ugly), you have a chance to be of help to him when the going gets tough. >>
I know it is a gift. He holds back nothing. You are absolutely right... and
your post has helped me see that I could ask better questions and gain more
insight as to what he might be feeling, and look beyond the initial shock of
the language.
Tuck comments:
<< My now 17 yo has always trended towards the distasteful or disgusting in
choices of music, comedy, movies. There was a time (at about 12!) when
he would say or do the most embarrassing things to get a laugh or a
reaction. He's a brilliant and creative person, but I was just
horrified at some of the ideas he would come up with. Sometimes he was
parrotting other people, too. >>
boy can I relate to this
<< We had long talks about other people's perceptions; about how no one
should be able to control what he thinks or how he expresses himself;
about free speech; about appropriateness of time and place; about the
meaning of disgusting or distasteful; about self-control and
impulsiveness. >>
I am so glad to see this written out. When these things happen and I am in a
state of shock I just go blank and all i can think is how could this little
12 year old say these things. This really helps!
<< We came to an agreement. I helped him determine what would be
considered out-of-bounds in "polite company". >>
This is a great idea too. Thank you so much for your all suggestions and
feedback I really appreciate it.
Jess
I hope this post is not too confusing. It was a nightmare to sort out all
the replies the way it turned out. Here is the original post I sent
<< I am having trouble deciding in general where one draws lines. No matter
how
much personal freedom one would like to give their children, it seems there
is always a point at which one has to think about what is too much. My 12
year old is very strong willed and seems to enjoy being shocking at times. He
is also very angry. How do I tell him that though we are supposed to have
freedom of speech I do not want him to listen to say "Eminem" or some of
the other rap artists that use very strong and sexual language? Obviously, I
can tell him, it is a retorical question really. It is difficult to ban
such things because I cannot stop his being exposed to them. He has decided
recently to explore song writing and has produced a couple of songs I just
plain find disturbing. One is about some person finding his girlfriend in
bed with another guy, and the other is about how life sucks, repleat with
really strong language. I asked him if it bothered him that other people
might really be put off by his choice of language and he says he couldn't
care less about that...Says it is aimed at all those kids that have made fun
of him. (he is slightly overweight and hates it, partly why he is not going
back to PS as usual anymore)
I am not sure what I am asking here really except that I find myself not
knowing what to say to him or how to react to this brand of creativity. I
can understand the acting out of anger but gee I would hate to be raising
another Eminem. What would you do?
Jess >>
writes:
Diane comments:
<< He's been out of school only over the summer, I gather? >>
Yes only over the summer. Mostly he has spent the summer playing with the
neighborhood kids, and had just recently wrote several songs. He really did
not "write" music to them they are mostly about the words. It should be
interesting to see what happens when his friends go back to public school and
he doesn't. He was literally begging me to take him out of school.
<< Let him
know what you think and why you think it--vulgar lyrics, violence, etc.,
but give him the freedom to make his own choices. >>
I let him know how I feel about the language he uses, and he has no trouble
with being free..it is not really a matter of giving him the choice... he has
always kind of done what he wanted to and been willing to face the
consequences. He is exhibiting more control as he has grown older.
<< You want to make sure, though,
that in distancing yourself from music you dislike and disapprove of,
you don't dislike or disapprove of him. Sharing some of it together may
lead to some important communication. >>
I have shared some of this ... I let him download several Eminem songs and I
listened and let him keep one or two and deleted the rest...which he resented
but they were just awful. He does play music in his room and not to the
point where it is disturbing to others.
Lisa's comments:
<< And, buy him a guitar, keyboard, drum, or whatever instruments he is
interested in today. You also might help him (if he wants the help) to
become healthier in his body. Maybe a few long walks talking to you
might help him formulate his musical ideas and help him trim his body
(FOR HIMSELF, not for others). >>
Lisa all the questions you suggested in the rest of your reply were really
good questions. He has access to both a guitar and a full digital piano. As
far as his body image. He just spent an entire week with the cross country
team at his brothers high school up in the Sierras running up and down hills
and camping in the Giant Sequoias(running camp). The first thing he did when
he got home was to run weigh himself and came out literally crying because he
had gained two pounds. I talked with him about all the variations in weight
that could occur in any given day but it did not seem to make him feel any
better. I have also talked to him about food choices which is ultimately up
to him.
Marji writes:
<< It seems to me that
through your son's songwriting, he is taking you into his confidence; this
is a gift. >> <<I'm not sure if this is coming across they way I mean it to.
I just want
to say that if you can accept his feelings (the good, the bad, and the
ugly), you have a chance to be of help to him when the going gets tough. >>
I know it is a gift. He holds back nothing. You are absolutely right... and
your post has helped me see that I could ask better questions and gain more
insight as to what he might be feeling, and look beyond the initial shock of
the language.
Tuck comments:
<< My now 17 yo has always trended towards the distasteful or disgusting in
choices of music, comedy, movies. There was a time (at about 12!) when
he would say or do the most embarrassing things to get a laugh or a
reaction. He's a brilliant and creative person, but I was just
horrified at some of the ideas he would come up with. Sometimes he was
parrotting other people, too. >>
boy can I relate to this
<< We had long talks about other people's perceptions; about how no one
should be able to control what he thinks or how he expresses himself;
about free speech; about appropriateness of time and place; about the
meaning of disgusting or distasteful; about self-control and
impulsiveness. >>
I am so glad to see this written out. When these things happen and I am in a
state of shock I just go blank and all i can think is how could this little
12 year old say these things. This really helps!
<< We came to an agreement. I helped him determine what would be
considered out-of-bounds in "polite company". >>
This is a great idea too. Thank you so much for your all suggestions and
feedback I really appreciate it.
Jess
I hope this post is not too confusing. It was a nightmare to sort out all
the replies the way it turned out. Here is the original post I sent
<< I am having trouble deciding in general where one draws lines. No matter
how
much personal freedom one would like to give their children, it seems there
is always a point at which one has to think about what is too much. My 12
year old is very strong willed and seems to enjoy being shocking at times. He
is also very angry. How do I tell him that though we are supposed to have
freedom of speech I do not want him to listen to say "Eminem" or some of
the other rap artists that use very strong and sexual language? Obviously, I
can tell him, it is a retorical question really. It is difficult to ban
such things because I cannot stop his being exposed to them. He has decided
recently to explore song writing and has produced a couple of songs I just
plain find disturbing. One is about some person finding his girlfriend in
bed with another guy, and the other is about how life sucks, repleat with
really strong language. I asked him if it bothered him that other people
might really be put off by his choice of language and he says he couldn't
care less about that...Says it is aimed at all those kids that have made fun
of him. (he is slightly overweight and hates it, partly why he is not going
back to PS as usual anymore)
I am not sure what I am asking here really except that I find myself not
knowing what to say to him or how to react to this brand of creativity. I
can understand the acting out of anger but gee I would hate to be raising
another Eminem. What would you do?
Jess >>
KT
>I just remembered something else about this time in our lives. When my
>
><< We had long talks about other people's perceptions; about how no one
>should be able to control what he thinks or how he expresses himself;
>about free speech; about appropriateness of time and place; about the
>meaning of disgusting or distasteful; about self-control and
>impulsiveness. >>
>
>I am so glad to see this written out. When these things happen and I am in a
>state of shock I just go blank and all i can think is how could this little
>12 year old say these things. This really helps!
>
>
><< We came to an agreement. I helped him determine what would be
>considered out-of-bounds in "polite company". >>
>
>This is a great idea too. Thank you so much for your all suggestions and
>feedback I really appreciate it.
>
son was 12, his little brother was only 3. There was no way I would be
happy about hearing even the most benign profanity coming out of my 3
yo's mouth. Besides the "Gram test", this was something I was
absolutely adamant about--and that if the baby said something off-color,
I would know exactly where to find the person who taught it to him, or
said it in front of him, and there would be serious consequences.
So, another way I helped him determine what was appropriate was to ask
him if he would like to hear that said by his baby brother. I think
this helped more than the Gram test, because he truly does love his
brother, and had an appreciation for his innocence.
Also, I flat out refused to buy any music for him that I found
objectionable. He could certainly buy it for himself if he had money,
but since he wasn't willing to work for much money, he rarely had enough
to buy CDs. That was my form of "censoring" what he listened to, in the
same way I've never purchased a toy gun. (Yet, there have always been
toy guns here!) I've never censored his music choice since he started
working for money at 14. I simply require that he not expose his now 8
yo brother to (most) of it. :) He does like a lot of cool music. He
turned me on to Dave Matthews, for instance.
I worried, too...what kind of kid was I raising? It's just better that
he can be home and explore that side of things where he can get guidance
and feedback that isn't necessarily agreeable with the ideas in the
music. I think, at least for my son, it's a phase. Both of my older
boys have gone (are going) through it. But they're also kind and
sensitive and don't hate women, nor are they racists (two of the reasons
I despise Eminem). And I think they will grow through to be good men as
well.
Glad I could help. :)
Tuck
[email protected]
I have shared some of this ... I let him download several Eminem songs and
I
listened and let him keep one or two and deleted the rest...which he
resented
but they were just awful. >>
He'll listen to them anyway.
"Cleaning Out My Closet" plays on the radio many times a day. It is an
extremely strong and dark song.
This way, when he has questions about the emotions being expressed and
actions being sung about, he'll know not to ask you.
Listen to them with him. Break the songs down, look at the Lyric books that
come with CD's (or on the net)
Talk about the pain and anger, where it is coming from, what in Eminem's
life may have brought these issues up. Somewhere in there. your son's anger
will be talked about and maybe he'll work through it and you'll both come to
a better understanding of his feelings.
~Elissa Cleaveland
Radical Unschoolers Unite!
I
listened and let him keep one or two and deleted the rest...which he
resented
but they were just awful. >>
He'll listen to them anyway.
"Cleaning Out My Closet" plays on the radio many times a day. It is an
extremely strong and dark song.
This way, when he has questions about the emotions being expressed and
actions being sung about, he'll know not to ask you.
Listen to them with him. Break the songs down, look at the Lyric books that
come with CD's (or on the net)
Talk about the pain and anger, where it is coming from, what in Eminem's
life may have brought these issues up. Somewhere in there. your son's anger
will be talked about and maybe he'll work through it and you'll both come to
a better understanding of his feelings.
~Elissa Cleaveland
Radical Unschoolers Unite!
Tia Leschke
>All that running probably turned some fat into muscle, which weighs
>
>Lisa all the questions you suggested in the rest of your reply were really
>good questions. He has access to both a guitar and a full digital piano. As
>far as his body image. He just spent an entire week with the cross country
>team at his brothers high school up in the Sierras running up and down hills
>and camping in the Giant Sequoias(running camp). The first thing he did when
>he got home was to run weigh himself and came out literally crying because he
>had gained two pounds. I talked with him about all the variations in weight
>that could occur in any given day but it did not seem to make him feel any
>better. I have also talked to him about food choices which is ultimately up
>to him.
more. Is he aware of that?
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/20/02 1:09:20 AM, AlmondJoy721@... writes:
<< I have shared some of this ... I let him download several Eminem songs
and I
listened and let him keep one or two and deleted the rest...which he resented
but they were just awful. He does play music in his room and not to the
point where it is disturbing to others. >>
There were rock'n'roll songs when I was a kid which adults considered "just
awful" and looking back, they were wrong. It was awful to them, and
innocuous to us, and lame in distant retrospect.
I will remind people which songs were considered soul-destroying and
life-robbing:
Let's Spend the Night Together by the Rolling Stones
Louie Louie by the Kingsmen (lyrics below)
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds by the Beatles
Under the Boardwalk by the Drifters
something by the Animals used to piss moms off, I forget which one.
"The Mighty Quinn" by Manfred Mann (written by Bob Dylan, also recorded by
the Grateful Dead)
I Think We're Alone Now (by whoever the heck that was... have to go look it
up)
......Tommy James and the Shondells
YES, I know the lyrics now are worse and horrible for parents.
Buy headphones.
Because forbidding popular culture creates fascination with popular culture
and resentment of mom.
Sandra
"Louie Louie, me gotta go. Louie Louie, me gotta go. A fine little girl, she
wait for me. Me catch the ship across the sea. I sailed the ship all alone. I
never think I'll make it home. Louie Louie, me gotta go . Three nights and
days we sailed the sea. Me think of girl constantly. On the ship, I dream she
there. I smell the rose in her hair. Louie Louie, me gotta go. Me see
Jamaican moon above. It won't be long me see me love. Me take her in my arms
and then I tell her I never leave again. Louie Louie, me gotta go." (By
Richard Berry. Copyright 1957-1963 by Limax Music Inc.)
<< I have shared some of this ... I let him download several Eminem songs
and I
listened and let him keep one or two and deleted the rest...which he resented
but they were just awful. He does play music in his room and not to the
point where it is disturbing to others. >>
There were rock'n'roll songs when I was a kid which adults considered "just
awful" and looking back, they were wrong. It was awful to them, and
innocuous to us, and lame in distant retrospect.
I will remind people which songs were considered soul-destroying and
life-robbing:
Let's Spend the Night Together by the Rolling Stones
Louie Louie by the Kingsmen (lyrics below)
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds by the Beatles
Under the Boardwalk by the Drifters
something by the Animals used to piss moms off, I forget which one.
"The Mighty Quinn" by Manfred Mann (written by Bob Dylan, also recorded by
the Grateful Dead)
I Think We're Alone Now (by whoever the heck that was... have to go look it
up)
......Tommy James and the Shondells
YES, I know the lyrics now are worse and horrible for parents.
Buy headphones.
Because forbidding popular culture creates fascination with popular culture
and resentment of mom.
Sandra
"Louie Louie, me gotta go. Louie Louie, me gotta go. A fine little girl, she
wait for me. Me catch the ship across the sea. I sailed the ship all alone. I
never think I'll make it home. Louie Louie, me gotta go . Three nights and
days we sailed the sea. Me think of girl constantly. On the ship, I dream she
there. I smell the rose in her hair. Louie Louie, me gotta go. Me see
Jamaican moon above. It won't be long me see me love. Me take her in my arms
and then I tell her I never leave again. Louie Louie, me gotta go." (By
Richard Berry. Copyright 1957-1963 by Limax Music Inc.)