Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] newbie question
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I am having trouble deciding in general where one draws lines. No matter how
much personal freedom one would like to give their children, it seems there
is always a point at which one has to think about what is too much. My 12
year old is very strong willed and seems to enjoy being shocking at times. He
is also very angry. How do I tell him that though we are supposed to have
freedom of speech I do not want him to listen to say "Eminem" or some of
the other rap artists that use very strong and sexual language? Obviously, I
can tell him, it is a retorical question really. It is difficult to ban
such things because I cannot stop his being exposed to them. He has decided
recently to explore song writing and has produced a couple of songs I just
plain find disturbing. One is about some person finding his girlfriend in
bed with another guy, and the other is about how life sucks, repleat with
really strong language. I asked him if it bothered him that other people
might really be put off by his choice of language and he says he couldn't
care less about that...Says it is aimed at all those kids that have made fun
of him. (he is slightly overweight and hates it, partly why he is not going
back to PS as usual anymore)
I am not sure what I am asking here really except that I find myself not
knowing what to say to him or how to react to this brand of creativity. I
can understand the acting out of anger but gee I would hate to be raising
another Eminem. What would you do?
Jess
much personal freedom one would like to give their children, it seems there
is always a point at which one has to think about what is too much. My 12
year old is very strong willed and seems to enjoy being shocking at times. He
is also very angry. How do I tell him that though we are supposed to have
freedom of speech I do not want him to listen to say "Eminem" or some of
the other rap artists that use very strong and sexual language? Obviously, I
can tell him, it is a retorical question really. It is difficult to ban
such things because I cannot stop his being exposed to them. He has decided
recently to explore song writing and has produced a couple of songs I just
plain find disturbing. One is about some person finding his girlfriend in
bed with another guy, and the other is about how life sucks, repleat with
really strong language. I asked him if it bothered him that other people
might really be put off by his choice of language and he says he couldn't
care less about that...Says it is aimed at all those kids that have made fun
of him. (he is slightly overweight and hates it, partly why he is not going
back to PS as usual anymore)
I am not sure what I am asking here really except that I find myself not
knowing what to say to him or how to react to this brand of creativity. I
can understand the acting out of anger but gee I would hate to be raising
another Eminem. What would you do?
Jess
Bill and Diane
It sounds like your son is exploring limits, along with quite a bit of
"deschooling." He's been out of school only over the summer, I gather?
Many people suggest that you should expect to deschool about a month for
each year of school, including preschool and K.
I see two issues here: what he wants to experience, and what you have to
put up with. My suggestion would be that you separate the two. Let him
know what you think and why you think it--vulgar lyrics, violence, etc.,
but give him the freedom to make his own choices. I suspect once he
realizes the choices are *really* his, some of the atraction will wane.
At the same time, though, he doesn't have to listen to it at "fill the
house" volume or in the room you're in. You want to make sure, though,
that in distancing yourself from music you dislike and disapprove of,
you don't dislike or disapprove of him. Sharing some of it together may
lead to some important communication.
:-) Diane
"deschooling." He's been out of school only over the summer, I gather?
Many people suggest that you should expect to deschool about a month for
each year of school, including preschool and K.
I see two issues here: what he wants to experience, and what you have to
put up with. My suggestion would be that you separate the two. Let him
know what you think and why you think it--vulgar lyrics, violence, etc.,
but give him the freedom to make his own choices. I suspect once he
realizes the choices are *really* his, some of the atraction will wane.
At the same time, though, he doesn't have to listen to it at "fill the
house" volume or in the room you're in. You want to make sure, though,
that in distancing yourself from music you dislike and disapprove of,
you don't dislike or disapprove of him. Sharing some of it together may
lead to some important communication.
:-) Diane
>I am having trouble deciding in general where one draws lines. No matter how
>much personal freedom one would like to give their children, it seems there
>is always a point at which one has to think about what is too much. My 12
>year old is very strong willed and seems to enjoy being shocking at times. He
>is also very angry. How do I tell him that though we are supposed to have
>freedom of speech I do not want him to listen to say "Eminem" or some of
>the other rap artists that use very strong and sexual language? Obviously, I
>can tell him, it is a retorical question really. It is difficult to ban
>such things because I cannot stop his being exposed to them. He has decided
>recently to explore song writing and has produced a couple of songs I just
>plain find disturbing. One is about some person finding his girlfriend in
>bed with another guy, and the other is about how life sucks, repleat with
>really strong language. I asked him if it bothered him that other people
>might really be put off by his choice of language and he says he couldn't
>care less about that...Says it is aimed at all those kids that have made fun
>of him. (he is slightly overweight and hates it, partly why he is not going
>back to PS as usual anymore)
>I am not sure what I am asking here really except that I find myself not
>knowing what to say to him or how to react to this brand of creativity. I
>can understand the acting out of anger but gee I would hate to be raising
>another Eminem. What would you do?
>
Lisa M. C. Bentley
> I am not sure what I am asking here really except that I find myself notWell, he's 12. I'd ask him what the foul language means to him when he
> knowing what to say to him or how to react to this brand of creativity. I
> can understand the acting out of anger but gee I would hate to be raising
> another Eminem. What would you do?
sings it. Also, what is he hoping that others will get out of his
music? It sounds to me that he is being somewhat of a copycat artist.
Nothing wrong with this, to an extent, if he doesn't want to be an
original. What makes him mad? Those kids that made fun of him? Why
not write a song about where he wishes they would go? Why not get some
anger out with showing them just how great he can be?
You already have a close enough relationship with him that he is being
open about his anger (I always hid mine), so gently help him towards his
goal. I don't think he really found a girlfriend in bed with another
guy, so have him write about things he really DID have happen to him.
Maybe a girl in school that he liked sat with another boy at lunch or
something? Help him know that the very best artists (painters, writers,
singers, etc.) write about what they know, not what other people know.
And, buy him a guitar, keyboard, drum, or whatever instruments he is
interested in today. You also might help him (if he wants the help) to
become healthier in his body. Maybe a few long walks talking to you
might help him formulate his musical ideas and help him trim his body
(FOR HIMSELF, not for others).
Good luck! It is so much easier to give advice outside of a
relationship than in it.
-Lisa in AZ
marji
Hi Jess,
You'll probably get a lot of ideas about this, but this is my take on the
situation. I know how lines of communication can shut down between teens
and their folks, and I think it is one of the biggest problems that
exist. Kids need the counsel of their more experienced parents, but the
parties are so angry at each other that they cannot talk. Kids go through
things, and their folks aren't there for them. It seems to me that
through your son's songwriting, he is taking you into his confidence; this
is a gift.
Like it or not, your son has strong feelings, and he is expressing them for
you in a way that he can. The first thing I would say is that you may want
to be sure to keep the lines of communication open. His songs and the
things he is expressing are great inroads to further discussion about these
issues. In other words, rather than remarking on the strong language, you
could open a discussion by saying, "Those are strong feelings," or
something like that. In other words, if his song is about life sucking,
then that's something you can talk with him about. Perhaps life doesn't
have to suck. Or perhaps you can help him deal with his life in ways that
will make him feel good.
You can't go back and unexpose him to the material he has already been
exposed to; there's no point focusing on that. But you can help him with
his feelings. Or, you can just listen to them without judgment. I know
that may be really difficult for you and may offend your sensibilities, but
it may be the difference of him no longer letting you in when he needs you
and him taking you into his confidence and you being able to head off
really scary things.
I'm not sure if this is coming across they way I mean it to. I just want
to say that if you can accept his feelings (the good, the bad, and the
ugly), you have a chance to be of help to him when the going gets tough.
All the best,
Marji
At 17:22 8/19/02 -0400, Jess wrote:
You'll probably get a lot of ideas about this, but this is my take on the
situation. I know how lines of communication can shut down between teens
and their folks, and I think it is one of the biggest problems that
exist. Kids need the counsel of their more experienced parents, but the
parties are so angry at each other that they cannot talk. Kids go through
things, and their folks aren't there for them. It seems to me that
through your son's songwriting, he is taking you into his confidence; this
is a gift.
Like it or not, your son has strong feelings, and he is expressing them for
you in a way that he can. The first thing I would say is that you may want
to be sure to keep the lines of communication open. His songs and the
things he is expressing are great inroads to further discussion about these
issues. In other words, rather than remarking on the strong language, you
could open a discussion by saying, "Those are strong feelings," or
something like that. In other words, if his song is about life sucking,
then that's something you can talk with him about. Perhaps life doesn't
have to suck. Or perhaps you can help him deal with his life in ways that
will make him feel good.
You can't go back and unexpose him to the material he has already been
exposed to; there's no point focusing on that. But you can help him with
his feelings. Or, you can just listen to them without judgment. I know
that may be really difficult for you and may offend your sensibilities, but
it may be the difference of him no longer letting you in when he needs you
and him taking you into his confidence and you being able to head off
really scary things.
I'm not sure if this is coming across they way I mean it to. I just want
to say that if you can accept his feelings (the good, the bad, and the
ugly), you have a chance to be of help to him when the going gets tough.
All the best,
Marji
At 17:22 8/19/02 -0400, Jess wrote:
>I am having trouble deciding in general where one draws lines. No matter how[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>much personal freedom one would like to give their children, it seems there
>is always a point at which one has to think about what is too much. My 12
>year old is very strong willed and seems to enjoy being shocking at times. He
>is also very angry...I am not sure what I am asking here really except
>that I find myself not knowing what to say to him or how to react to this
>brand of creativity. I can understand the acting out of anger but gee I
>would hate to be raising
>another Eminem. What would you do?
>Jess
KT
>My now 17 yo has always trended towards the distasteful or disgusting in
>
>I am not sure what I am asking here really except that I find myself not
>knowing what to say to him or how to react to this brand of creativity. I
>can understand the acting out of anger but gee I would hate to be raising
>another Eminem. What would you do?
>
choices of music, comedy, movies. There was a time (at about 12!) when
he would say or do the most embarrassing things to get a laugh or a
reaction. He's a brilliant and creative person, but I was just
horrified at some of the ideas he would come up with. Sometimes he was
parrotting other people, too.
We had long talks about other people's perceptions; about how no one
should be able to control what he thinks or how he expresses himself;
about free speech; about appropriateness of time and place; about the
meaning of disgusting or distasteful; about self-control and
impulsiveness.
We came to an agreement. I helped him determine what would be
considered out-of-bounds in "polite company". I gave him a test to
apply--"Would I feel comfortable saying this to Gram?" (my mother) If
the answer was no, then he was to save it for when we were alone, or
write it down, or tell his buddies. I was allowed to say ahead of time
if I thought the place we were going was an appropriate place for D&D,
as we called it. And I was allowed to simply say "D&D" if I thought he
was about to go or had gone over the line. He agreed to stop at the
point he heard me say that. It helped him self-regulate.
Shortly after that, he was diagnosed with Tourette Syndrome. I'm not
sure if his tendency to be D&D had anything to do with his TS, but I
know he certainly felt *compelled* to say some of the things he did.
I'll never know, and he did learn to self-regulate.
He writes songs, too. They're not all merry sunshine. The thing is,
there's a market out there for that kind of stuff. (Not saying that's a
good thing.) I'm saying that other people feel the same way as my son,
and I believe it's best if they find a way to express it in a healthy
way that doesn't harm anyone.
Tuck
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/19/02 3:23:05 PM, AlmondJoy721@... writes:
<< How do I tell him that though we are supposed to have
freedom of speech I do not want him to listen to say "Eminem" >>
The more you resist the more he will want it.
If you want it gone, listen to it yourself and tell him it's wonderful and
ask him to put it back on because you really like it. Put it on in his room
when he's going to sleep. Send him eminem websites. Send him articles about
what was shocking when you were young. Make it seem mainstream and
educational and he'll probably not want anything to do with it anymore.
<<It is difficult to ban
such things because I cannot stop his being exposed to them. >>>
True. So if you do things which ARE useful and uplifting and good, he will
be exposed to THOSE things, the things you and others are doing around him.
<< My 12 year old is very strong willed and seems to enjoy being shocking at
times. >>
How long has he been homeschooled?
How long have you been looking into unschooling?
Those would be some serious factors to consider.
<I asked him if it bothered him that other people
might really be put off by his choice of language and he says he couldn't
care less about that...Says it is aimed at all those kids that have made fun
of him. (he is slightly overweight and hates it, partly why he is not going
back to PS as usual anymore)>>
Ah.
Well if he is harmed by negative reactions to his physical self, what he
needs is an abundance of positive reactions to him, his interests, his life.
And he needs a break from pressure and criticism. And if you the mom are
going to criticize and rag on him, he might decide he'd just as soon go back
to school.
<< I can understand the acting out of anger but gee I would hate to be
raising
another Eminem. What would you do? >>
Remove negativity and add positive regard.
He's like a battery, storing up negativity. An outlet (listening to harsh
lyrics) will get it out better than your prevention of outlets.
The real negativity is criticism of his appearance and preferences, not his
"exposure" to how others have expressed their frustrations.
Sandra
<< How do I tell him that though we are supposed to have
freedom of speech I do not want him to listen to say "Eminem" >>
The more you resist the more he will want it.
If you want it gone, listen to it yourself and tell him it's wonderful and
ask him to put it back on because you really like it. Put it on in his room
when he's going to sleep. Send him eminem websites. Send him articles about
what was shocking when you were young. Make it seem mainstream and
educational and he'll probably not want anything to do with it anymore.
<<It is difficult to ban
such things because I cannot stop his being exposed to them. >>>
True. So if you do things which ARE useful and uplifting and good, he will
be exposed to THOSE things, the things you and others are doing around him.
<< My 12 year old is very strong willed and seems to enjoy being shocking at
times. >>
How long has he been homeschooled?
How long have you been looking into unschooling?
Those would be some serious factors to consider.
<I asked him if it bothered him that other people
might really be put off by his choice of language and he says he couldn't
care less about that...Says it is aimed at all those kids that have made fun
of him. (he is slightly overweight and hates it, partly why he is not going
back to PS as usual anymore)>>
Ah.
Well if he is harmed by negative reactions to his physical self, what he
needs is an abundance of positive reactions to him, his interests, his life.
And he needs a break from pressure and criticism. And if you the mom are
going to criticize and rag on him, he might decide he'd just as soon go back
to school.
<< I can understand the acting out of anger but gee I would hate to be
raising
another Eminem. What would you do? >>
Remove negativity and add positive regard.
He's like a battery, storing up negativity. An outlet (listening to harsh
lyrics) will get it out better than your prevention of outlets.
The real negativity is criticism of his appearance and preferences, not his
"exposure" to how others have expressed their frustrations.
Sandra
Betsy
<< I can understand the acting out of anger but gee I would hate to be
raising another Eminem. What would you do? >>
Our culture hurts boys a lot and doesn't let them cry. Maybe you could
consider the hostile/foul language to be his replacement for crying and
let him let it out some more? I don't think it will be permanent.
Best wishes,
Betsy
P.S. Maybe renting some macho revenge movies (like with Stallone) would
be cathartic, or some movies about high school cruelty. (Powder and
Never Been Kissed come to mind, but other people on the list probably
have better ideas.)
Almost any movie about anything is going to have major scenes that allow
some vicarious emotional relief. Just renting movies that appeal to
your son can be a bit therapeutic. Art can be healing. Even not very
good art.
raising another Eminem. What would you do? >>
Our culture hurts boys a lot and doesn't let them cry. Maybe you could
consider the hostile/foul language to be his replacement for crying and
let him let it out some more? I don't think it will be permanent.
Best wishes,
Betsy
P.S. Maybe renting some macho revenge movies (like with Stallone) would
be cathartic, or some movies about high school cruelty. (Powder and
Never Been Kissed come to mind, but other people on the list probably
have better ideas.)
Almost any movie about anything is going to have major scenes that allow
some vicarious emotional relief. Just renting movies that appeal to
your son can be a bit therapeutic. Art can be healing. Even not very
good art.
[email protected]
Thanks Betsy, Sandra, Ned and all the others who sent replies and ideas. I
really appreciate it.
Jess
really appreciate it.
Jess
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/21/02 10:44:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
<< Our culture hurts boys a lot and doesn't let them cry. Maybe you could
consider the hostile/foul language to be his replacement for crying and
let him let it out some more? I don't think it will be permanent.
Best wishes,
Betsy >>
He crys he laughs and he seethes and curses and rants and he does it in
writing too. I am glad he can let it out. I tend to let things out too, in
short blasts. I can't help it. Life has been really tough for us this year,
but we are getting through it as best we can. I do not believe I am overly
worried nor denying him that opportunity.. I thought feedback from others
might help me know how better to deal with what was happening...as I was
disturbed about certain aspects of it. I apologize if this was all off
topic, I just had a feeling that I would get some great ideas from this list.
It does seem more like a parenting issue.
Jessica
ecsamhill@... writes:
<< Our culture hurts boys a lot and doesn't let them cry. Maybe you could
consider the hostile/foul language to be his replacement for crying and
let him let it out some more? I don't think it will be permanent.
Best wishes,
Betsy >>
He crys he laughs and he seethes and curses and rants and he does it in
writing too. I am glad he can let it out. I tend to let things out too, in
short blasts. I can't help it. Life has been really tough for us this year,
but we are getting through it as best we can. I do not believe I am overly
worried nor denying him that opportunity.. I thought feedback from others
might help me know how better to deal with what was happening...as I was
disturbed about certain aspects of it. I apologize if this was all off
topic, I just had a feeling that I would get some great ideas from this list.
It does seem more like a parenting issue.
Jessica
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/21/02 11:10:01 PM, AlmondJoy721@... writes:
<< I just had a feeling that I would get some great ideas from this list.
It does seem more like a parenting issue. >>
But some parenting issues are pre-requisite to unschooling working.
Being fresh from a conference, I'm thinking in terms of what was happening
there, and if you don't have peace in your home and if you and your child
don't trust one another, unschooling isn't going to blossom and grow up and
around you both.
Sandra
<< I just had a feeling that I would get some great ideas from this list.
It does seem more like a parenting issue. >>
But some parenting issues are pre-requisite to unschooling working.
Being fresh from a conference, I'm thinking in terms of what was happening
there, and if you don't have peace in your home and if you and your child
don't trust one another, unschooling isn't going to blossom and grow up and
around you both.
Sandra
Ren
> << If you were just beginning to unschool, knowing what you knowDoes anyone else here remember the thread at unschooling.com which was all about "unschooling curriculum" or something? We all listed our favorite fun things that we kept around...from globes to rice bins and art supplies etc...
> now, and you had some money to spend of fun, cool stuff, what would
> you buy?"
I think it is a fabulous thread for getting your creative juices flowing. Is it still there?
Also, I run an inclusive support group in NW Florida Stepheny. If you ever get over to Pensacola, we'd love to meet you and your family.
There are four unschooling families here now, three of which are fairly radical :) including mine.
Ren
pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/9/2003 9:26:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
grateful. The ideas given so far have been GREAT. I did have this huge list of stuff
I wanted to buy, but have just about shelved it and am planning out garage
sale trips for the next 4 weeks. :o)
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> Does anyone else here remember the thread at unschooling.com which was allIf you (or someone) can find a link to that and post it, I'd be most
> about "unschooling curriculum" or something? We all listed our favorite fun
> things that we kept around...from globes to rice bins and art supplies etc...
> I think it is a fabulous thread for getting your creative juices flowing. Is
> it still there?
>
grateful. The ideas given so far have been GREAT. I did have this huge list of stuff
I wanted to buy, but have just about shelved it and am planning out garage
sale trips for the next 4 weeks. :o)
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]