zandaniel

Hi guys
Been lurking on the list for a couple of months now but haven't
posted since my 'stop scaring the newbie' post which caused such a
riot. I apologize for that. I was sick at the time (recurring
illness!) and I get a touch sensitive about 'perceived' character
slurs. Because of my illness I also think that life is too short to
hold on to grievances and to take things so seriously. :)
Questions:
What is the difference between unschooling and radical unschooling?

Some of the things talked about like; allowing the child to decide
what he/she watches on TV and for how long, what to eat and when,
when to go to bed, whether to brush teeth etc are, I thought,
parenting choices. Even children who go to school have these issues.
So if these are part of unschooling how do they learn self-
discipline, self-control and good life habits? Do you just use
natural consequences for everything?

How does religion work with unschooling? Do people who are devout
believers 'teach' their children their 'beliefs'? If a child asks
about God do they get the parents 'beliefs' as truth? Same for non-
believers too? Or do you say "this is what I believe and some people
believe such and such, and in your life the choice is yours what you
choose to believe" or something like that?

Just wondering about stuff
Joz

Fetteroll

on 8/19/02 1:18 AM, zandaniel at zandaniel@... wrote:

> What is the difference between unschooling and radical unschooling?

Depends who you ask! :-)

But maybe a short answer is unschooling is not doing school and radical
unschooling encompasses all areas of life.

> Some of the things talked about like; allowing the child to decide
> what he/she watches on TV and for how long, what to eat and when,
> when to go to bed, whether to brush teeth etc are, I thought,
> parenting choices.

They are. But for some people who question the need to teach their children
math it's a natural extension to question the need to teach their children
anything else. If living life is enough for history, then why should
figuring out teeth brushing be any different?

The people who try not limiting TV or food or bedtimes find that kids do
self regulate after a few weeks or months. (They *will* glut for a while
because they want whatever it was that was previously forbidden and
unconsciously assume the controls will reappear so they need to take as much
advantage of the freedom as possible.)

The kids *won't* make the same choices we would. But they won't do nothing
but whatever we fear they will.

(It's *much* easier to discuss this around real problems rather than
generalizations and what-if scenarios. Generalizations tend to gloss over
realities and what-ifs tend to get what-if'd to death.)

One thing that's tough to get across in discussions like this is our own
wants and needs. What we need to relearn are what are our real boundaries
and what are the controls we're trying to impose on others just to make our
lives easier. One way of helping us see the difference is by asking how we'd
treat a friend in the same situation. We might be upset if our kids had been
watching TV for 6 hours straight but we'd generally give the benefit of the
doubt to the friend that they were doing what they wanted to do and we
should go find a life for ourselves and not bother them ;-) (But since as
unschooling parents we're responsible for our children's environment, if
they're watching that much TV everyday then we should make sure they have
other options that are equally enticing and not just choosing TV because
it's the best option available.) But if our kids wouldn't give up the TV so
we could watch the one program we liked then that's an issue of respect for
other people.

> So if these are part of unschooling how do they learn self-
> discipline, self-control and good life habits? Do you just use
> natural consequences for everything?

Modeling. Talking to them about why we make the decisions we do (rather than
why they should make the decision). Talking to them about how something make
us feel. Letting them try things out. Helping them by making some things
less odious. Making sure there are other options besides what they're
choosing. Realizing that as competent as they may seem, that perhaps they
really aren't as ready as we assume they are. (Like with the blueberries!
;-)

If a practice is good, then do we need to train kids to do them or will they
do them because they make sense? (Though not necessarily right away or on
*our* time schedule!)

For instance, I've always brushed my teeth with my daughter. I remember
brushing teeth as a child to be a long lonely tedious process so by doing it
with her, I remove that one objection. It was also difficult because it
wasn't automatic so a child is conscious of doing it. By doing it together
my daughter gets a social time which takes her mind off the tediousness of
it. She's rarely chosen not to brush partly because she'd give up that
social time. And skipping once or twice or even a whole week isn't going to
give her cavities. It's habitually not brushing that will cause cavities.

> Or do you say "this is what I believe and some people
> believe such and such, and in your life the choice is yours what you
> choose to believe" or something like that?

I do. But others don't. For some people unschooling stops with academics.
For others it goes beyond that.

Doing what unschoolers do and not doing what unschoolers don't do is
probably how many people begin unschooling. But it won't get someone very
far because from a school mindset or conventional parenting mindset
unschooling doesn't make a lot of sense! It just flies in the face of
conventional wisdom. So a helpful next step is to question our assumptions
about how things need to be so we can *understand* unschooling and how human
being work.

Joyce

inmdcrew

As a newbie I can see the advantages that Joyce has pointed out with
regard to unschooling in life.

However, as a newbie I don't feel comfortable yet with that.
I tend to associate unschooling with a method of school and the other
stuff you mentioned as parenting.

However, I can see where the unschooling has led us. I don't make a
big deal about bedtime or food. But I am a stickler for personal
hygiene and cleaniness of the home. Not to say we are spotless. But
I don't want bugs on me or in the house. Ha!

As far as religion: we are born again believers in Christ. The kids
ask questions as far as other religions go. But they always come
back to Christ. We don't attend church and we try to have our lives
represent what Christ means to us. I was burned up on rules and
doctrines a long time ago so the kids don't really know about that.

So, basically we lead a mixture of the two.

Tina (inmdcrew)

kayb85

> Questions:
> What is the difference between unschooling and radical unschooling?

I know I've been on some lists that call themselves unschooling lists
but they're more about relaxed homeschooling or ecclectic schooling.
They think that not using a bought curriculum means unschooling, even
if they're printing worksheets off from the internet to make their
kids to fill out.

> Some of the things talked about like; allowing the child to decide
> what he/she watches on TV and for how long, what to eat and when,
> when to go to bed, whether to brush teeth etc are, I thought,
> parenting choices. Even children who go to school have these
issues.
> So if these are part of unschooling how do they learn self-
> discipline, self-control and good life habits? Do you just use
> natural consequences for everything?

Kids who have to go to school can't stay up until 3 am and sleep
until noon.

I think what happens is that once you're unschooling long enough you
stop differentiating between "school" or "education" and the rest of
life. Allowing a child to learn what he wants leads naturally into
allowing a child to eat what he wants.

The best way to learn good habits is to have a parent leading by good
example. That is a real challenge for parents! Really, it's easy
for me to yell at my kids and not let them get up from the table
until they finish their veggies while I'm standing there drinking a
coke and eating a cupcake. It's much, much harder on my part to
model good eating habits by not having the coke and the cupcake and
sitting down to eat a big plate of brocolli.

I think some of what people call self control and self discipline is
just adherance to tradition. Like telling kids that they have to get
up and make their beds. What is really the purpose of making beds?
They just get messed up again at bedtime. And if you don't have to
go anywhere the next day, why bother going to bed before midnight? I
do insist that my kids brush their teeth at night. I'm not there
yet! lol

My kids still have boundaries, and those boundaries are that in our
family we do not hurt each other. For example, if someone is on the
phone, it is rude to make so much noise that the person on the phone
can't hear. It is unacceptable to knock over a tower of blocks that
someone is building, or to write on someone else's picture that
they're drawing. That is self control. Learning that just because
you're mad doesn't give you permission to rip up someone else's
paper. And really, having personal boundaries is a healthy way to
live your life, even if you're not parenting. You should respect
yourself enough that you don't allow people to destroy your property
or rudely interrupt your personal phone calls. If you don't allow
other people to treat you like that, you shouldn't allow your
children to treat you like that either. If you tell your
child, "Don't color on that paper because it's real important to
mommy", pretty soon, your kids will be telling each other, "Hey,
that's my project, you may not destroy that".


> How does religion work with unschooling? Do people who are devout
> believers 'teach' their children their 'beliefs'? If a child asks
> about God do they get the parents 'beliefs' as truth?

I am a firm believer in Jesus Christ and I do definitely teach my
beliefs as truth to my children. I don't use a Bible curriculum to
do this though. (I have struggled with that issue and it was the
last thing to remove before I could completely unschool!) It didn't
make sense really, because I was willing to allow the Holy Spirit to
control every area of my children's education except for the area of
Bible study!!! Many on this list would disagree with me on teaching
Biblical values as absolute, but to use the burning building analogy,
there is only one way out and since I believe I know the one way out
of the building, I'm going to tell that truth to my children. Of
course I can't transfer my faith to my children--they have to choose
for themselves whether or not they will reject or accept Christ. I
would be brokenhearted if they rejected, though.

Sheila

zandaniel

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> on 8/19/02 1:18 AM, zandaniel at zandaniel@h... wrote:


Hi Joyce
This answer really sums it up for me. I try to not use the
word 'unschool' at all because it's all about life for me. I do have
my own personal limits and boundaries which I am consistent with and
the kids know where they stand. By loving and respecting myself my
children are learning to love and respect themselves and others too.
In regards to religion I'm like you (their choice what they believe)
and I know that whatever they decide will be the right way for them.
I trust them to know what they need.
Thanks for replying
Kind regards
Joz
> > What is the difference between unschooling and radical
unschooling?
>
> Depends who you ask! :-)
>
> But maybe a short answer is unschooling is not doing school and
radical
> unschooling encompasses all areas of life.

zandaniel

Hi Tina
I struggled with letting unschooling encompass all areas of my life
up until a few weeks ago. Then I just let go and jumped, and as the
saying goes 'I flew'. (I've always had a tendency to jump into
things, boots and all!:) I still get a bit scared sometimes and I
just breathe and 'trust'.
I find this list great for 'keeping the faith' :)
Kind regards
Joz

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "inmdcrew" <Hatfield72@H...> wrote:
> As a newbie I can see the advantages that Joyce has pointed out
with
> regard to unschooling in life.
>
> However, as a newbie I don't feel comfortable yet with that.
> I tend to associate unschooling with a method of school and the
other
> stuff you mentioned as parenting.
>
> However, I can see where the unschooling has led us. I don't make
a
> big deal about bedtime or food. But I am a stickler for personal
> hygiene and cleaniness of the home. Not to say we are spotless.
But
> I don't want bugs on me or in the house. Ha!
>
> As far as religion: we are born again believers in Christ. The
kids
> ask questions as far as other religions go. But they always come
> back to Christ. We don't attend church and we try to have our
lives
> represent what Christ means to us. I was burned up on rules and
> doctrines a long time ago so the kids don't really know about that.
>
> So, basically we lead a mixture of the two.
>
> Tina (inmdcrew)

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/19/02 9:55:35 AM, sheran@... writes:

<< It is unacceptable to knock over a tower of blocks that
someone is building, or to write on someone else's picture that
they're drawing. That is self control. >>

I think it's compassion and consideration.
Self control is harsher and harder than the thought, in each situation, of
doing what is right for right reasons.

Sandra