Christianity
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/02 1:18:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Yes, Jesus did say that He was THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and
that no one comes to the Father except through Him. I do believe
that to be true. Just like I believe that unschooling is THE way to
educate a child. I do believe in absolute rights and wrongs. But
it's also true that in Christ, there is so much more freedom, so much
more individuality, so much more love. It's so hard to see the true
picture of Christianity, as Christ intended, without seeing the stuff
that the institutional church has added to the picture. >>
I like how you put that Sheila.
As a non-religous, anti-church follower of Christ, it's hard to fit in.
I feel that I try to be Christian (in the true sense, not religion wise), but
I don't agree with about 90% of the Christian rhetoric out there. Mainly
because it is mind control, money, power driven rules.
Every church thinks they are IT. I don't like the fear mongering, I don't
like the collections, I don't like the shunning, be it open or subtle of
other religions or beliefs.
So I am more a follower of Christ than a Christian I suppose.
But I like the way you put that.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Yes, Jesus did say that He was THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and
that no one comes to the Father except through Him. I do believe
that to be true. Just like I believe that unschooling is THE way to
educate a child. I do believe in absolute rights and wrongs. But
it's also true that in Christ, there is so much more freedom, so much
more individuality, so much more love. It's so hard to see the true
picture of Christianity, as Christ intended, without seeing the stuff
that the institutional church has added to the picture. >>
I like how you put that Sheila.
As a non-religous, anti-church follower of Christ, it's hard to fit in.
I feel that I try to be Christian (in the true sense, not religion wise), but
I don't agree with about 90% of the Christian rhetoric out there. Mainly
because it is mind control, money, power driven rules.
Every church thinks they are IT. I don't like the fear mongering, I don't
like the collections, I don't like the shunning, be it open or subtle of
other religions or beliefs.
So I am more a follower of Christ than a Christian I suppose.
But I like the way you put that.
Ren
kayb85
Ren,
You might like this group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new-
wineskin/
Sheila
You might like this group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new-
wineskin/
Sheila
> As a non-religous, anti-church follower of Christ, it's hard to fitin.
> I feel that I try to be Christian (in the true sense, not religionwise), but
> I don't agree with about 90% of the Christian rhetoric out there.Mainly
> because it is mind control, money, power driven rules.don't
> Every church thinks they are IT. I don't like the fear mongering, I
> like the collections, I don't like the shunning, be it open orsubtle of
> other religions or beliefs.
> So I am more a follower of Christ than a Christian I suppose.
> But I like the way you put that.
>
> Ren
MARK and JULIE SOLICH
Why not try the Bible? The first four books of the New Testament are all
about him. I think they give the best insight into who he is, and when you
read them you realize how little the church as we know it has to do with
him.
Although not directly about Jesus, The Chronicles of Narnia are a beautiful
picture of God and Jesus. They are some of our favourite stories, maybe your
daughter would enjoy them.
Julie
about him. I think they give the best insight into who he is, and when you
read them you realize how little the church as we know it has to do with
him.
Although not directly about Jesus, The Chronicles of Narnia are a beautiful
picture of God and Jesus. They are some of our favourite stories, maybe your
daughter would enjoy them.
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jana Eagle" <jana@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 5:43 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Christianity
>
> My daughter (4 yo in April) has for the last year shown a great
> interest in Jesus, even though I am not Christian and don't go to
> church! The little that I had around the house from my own catholic
> upbringing (funeral cards from my grandfather's funeral, and a picture
> book Children's Bible), she would ask me about and she was riveted by
> the crucifixion of Jesus story and play-acted being on a cross for months.
>
> She walked up to me last month and said that she wanted to keep the
> children's bible "forever" and that she "wanted to learn more about
> Jesus"!
>
> Wondering if you all have any advice on how to handle this? I
> personally want nothing to do with the church, although i suppose
> Jesus and the church often don't have a lot to do with eachother! I
> am happy to support her in her desire to learn more about Jesus, any
> good ideas of what she might like?
> This is one of the reasons I am here, on this list, is because my
> daughter obviously has her own ideas of what she needs to learn about.
>
> thanks,
> Jana
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
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> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/25/03 4:04:11 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< No, I don't feel church and Jesus have to go hand in hand. I
personally feel more in touch with Jesus now, then when I was
Christian. I feel an equal fondness with many of the "teachers" of
the great religions. >>
Yep. Same here.
I like Unity that way...because they don't teach a church doctrine. Their
underlying belief system is very open and brings in a lot of other spiritual
leaders like Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer etc...even though it is based on Jesus.
And they carry books on Buddhism, Suffism etc...in their bookstore. It's a
totally different type of Christian church, if a child decides they really
want to pursue Jesus in a church setting.
I thought I would never, ever do church again until I found Unity.
Most mainstream Christian churches shun any of the new thought churches as
"theological cults" because they don't follow the Bible.
Which of course piqued my interest in the whole concept!! Bible literalists
usually scare me.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< No, I don't feel church and Jesus have to go hand in hand. I
personally feel more in touch with Jesus now, then when I was
Christian. I feel an equal fondness with many of the "teachers" of
the great religions. >>
Yep. Same here.
I like Unity that way...because they don't teach a church doctrine. Their
underlying belief system is very open and brings in a lot of other spiritual
leaders like Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer etc...even though it is based on Jesus.
And they carry books on Buddhism, Suffism etc...in their bookstore. It's a
totally different type of Christian church, if a child decides they really
want to pursue Jesus in a church setting.
I thought I would never, ever do church again until I found Unity.
Most mainstream Christian churches shun any of the new thought churches as
"theological cults" because they don't follow the Bible.
Which of course piqued my interest in the whole concept!! Bible literalists
usually scare me.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
Rebecca
Ren shared:
Another resource for families that are religiously "mixed", or at
least more open spiritually in their religious views, and wish for
their children to be exposed to the various World-Religions in a non-
dogmatic manner may be interested in finding their closest Unitarian
Universalist Congregation.
Contact:
http://www.uua.org/
~ Rebecca
> I like Unity that way...because they don't teach a church doctrine.Oh, glad you said that.
Another resource for families that are religiously "mixed", or at
least more open spiritually in their religious views, and wish for
their children to be exposed to the various World-Religions in a non-
dogmatic manner may be interested in finding their closest Unitarian
Universalist Congregation.
Contact:
http://www.uua.org/
~ Rebecca
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/25/03 2:43:58 AM, jana@... writes:
<< I am happy to support her in her desire to learn more about Jesus, any
good ideas of what she might like?>>
If you have Baptist neighbors they would probably be thrilled to take her to
church with them. The downside is she would start getting on you after a
while to go, and she might have nightmares and other frights about your going
to hell. So if she REALLY wants to learn religion, a Bible-teaching church
would get her lots and early.
But you were Catholic, so maybe go to a Catholic supply store and ask them
about kids' story books, and picture books. Maybe that would be enough for
her?
If you want to read to her from the Bible, the second chapter of Luke has a
little bit about Jesus as a child.
Holly, who is 11, considers herself an atheist, but has always been
fascinated by Jesus. In Holly's case, she's happy with Christmas stories,
watching Jesus Christ Superstar (she could discuss the relative merits of the
music and presentation of the 70's video and the recent one with anyone),
she's seen Ben Hur (which has Jesus in the background and as a large force,
if not large character). She's seen The Life of Brian.
I was reading to her from an old storybook for children, from the 1920s or so
(maybe earlier on the writing of this one part) and it was telling the story
of Jesus as a child, staying behind in the temple. The author decided to
throw in that Jesus had to go to school "just like you do" and that was
especially funny since Jesus did NOT go to school and neither did Holly.
After seeing Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat live, Holly wanted
the video, and wanted me to read her the real story from the Bible. She's
also really familiar with Joseph, King of Dreams which is closer to the Bible
(but songs aren't as good <g>) and she can compare/contrast and discuss all
that.
Sometimes I sing a hymn to Holly, if it seems to tie in with something, and
give her a little tidbit of Christian belief that way. The other day we were
in Hobby Lobby and there was an instrumental on the muzak of "Trust and
Obey," which has a really pretty tune. I started singing the words. She was
interested, but also wanted me to hush. I think she was afraid I was making
fun of their Christian store, but I was singing the exact right words!
"Trust and obey, for there's no other way to be happy with Jesus but to trust
and obey."
So I'm a fairly good resource for Holly and I've found she's happy with an
added bit of info every few weeks or as it arises naturally one way or
another (about Jesus or anything else).
Sandra
<< I am happy to support her in her desire to learn more about Jesus, any
good ideas of what she might like?>>
If you have Baptist neighbors they would probably be thrilled to take her to
church with them. The downside is she would start getting on you after a
while to go, and she might have nightmares and other frights about your going
to hell. So if she REALLY wants to learn religion, a Bible-teaching church
would get her lots and early.
But you were Catholic, so maybe go to a Catholic supply store and ask them
about kids' story books, and picture books. Maybe that would be enough for
her?
If you want to read to her from the Bible, the second chapter of Luke has a
little bit about Jesus as a child.
Holly, who is 11, considers herself an atheist, but has always been
fascinated by Jesus. In Holly's case, she's happy with Christmas stories,
watching Jesus Christ Superstar (she could discuss the relative merits of the
music and presentation of the 70's video and the recent one with anyone),
she's seen Ben Hur (which has Jesus in the background and as a large force,
if not large character). She's seen The Life of Brian.
I was reading to her from an old storybook for children, from the 1920s or so
(maybe earlier on the writing of this one part) and it was telling the story
of Jesus as a child, staying behind in the temple. The author decided to
throw in that Jesus had to go to school "just like you do" and that was
especially funny since Jesus did NOT go to school and neither did Holly.
After seeing Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat live, Holly wanted
the video, and wanted me to read her the real story from the Bible. She's
also really familiar with Joseph, King of Dreams which is closer to the Bible
(but songs aren't as good <g>) and she can compare/contrast and discuss all
that.
Sometimes I sing a hymn to Holly, if it seems to tie in with something, and
give her a little tidbit of Christian belief that way. The other day we were
in Hobby Lobby and there was an instrumental on the muzak of "Trust and
Obey," which has a really pretty tune. I started singing the words. She was
interested, but also wanted me to hush. I think she was afraid I was making
fun of their Christian store, but I was singing the exact right words!
"Trust and obey, for there's no other way to be happy with Jesus but to trust
and obey."
So I'm a fairly good resource for Holly and I've found she's happy with an
added bit of info every few weeks or as it arises naturally one way or
another (about Jesus or anything else).
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/25/03 11:39:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
just bought my 10yo daughter one too this past week when she showed interest.
I have never seen it. Neat that you mentioned it.
Ang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> watching Jesus Christ Superstar (she could discuss the relative merits ofmy mom bought us tickets for this for Christmas, and we are going Sunday. She
> the
> music and presentation of the 70's video and the recent one with anyone),
>
just bought my 10yo daughter one too this past week when she showed interest.
I have never seen it. Neat that you mentioned it.
Ang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/25/03 11:39:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
most the time they are wrong, LOL
My kids are un-sunday schooled as well. If they want to go, great, if not,
they don't. The oldest enjoys it most of the time. The little ones don't. I
have had lapses in my attendance, but i go because I enjoy it. I don't like a
lot of the religious intolerance I see in the world. I don't like when well
meaning churchy people ruin for the down to earth ones. I don't like the
mockery of Christians that result. I do things with my Christianity because I
am led to and I enjoy it. I don't spend time trying to convert others, i
believe my witness is most effective by my example, the way I lead my life. I
hope I am on the right track, and not pushing others away. I truly believe
that the spirit moves people to a relationship with Jesus, not what humans do
to interfere. How else could someone so religiously cynical as my former self
had found Jesus? Nothing short of a miracle :0)
Ang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> If you have Baptist neighbors they would probably be thrilled to take her toI am a Baptist. I hate to think what people would assume about me, because
>
> church with them. The downside is she would start getting on you after a
> while to go, and she might have nightmares and other frights about your
> going
> to hell.
most the time they are wrong, LOL
My kids are un-sunday schooled as well. If they want to go, great, if not,
they don't. The oldest enjoys it most of the time. The little ones don't. I
have had lapses in my attendance, but i go because I enjoy it. I don't like a
lot of the religious intolerance I see in the world. I don't like when well
meaning churchy people ruin for the down to earth ones. I don't like the
mockery of Christians that result. I do things with my Christianity because I
am led to and I enjoy it. I don't spend time trying to convert others, i
believe my witness is most effective by my example, the way I lead my life. I
hope I am on the right track, and not pushing others away. I truly believe
that the spirit moves people to a relationship with Jesus, not what humans do
to interfere. How else could someone so religiously cynical as my former self
had found Jesus? Nothing short of a miracle :0)
Ang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/25/03 10:32:30 AM, unolist@... writes:
<< my mom bought us tickets for this for Christmas, and we are going Sunday.
She
just bought my 10yo daughter one too this past week when she showed interest.
I have never seen it. Neat that you mentioned it.
Ang >>
Where are you?
Holly wants to see it live and hasn't.
<< my mom bought us tickets for this for Christmas, and we are going Sunday.
She
just bought my 10yo daughter one too this past week when she showed interest.
I have never seen it. Neat that you mentioned it.
Ang >>
Where are you?
Holly wants to see it live and hasn't.
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/25/03 1:09:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Where are you?Columbus, Ohio. C'mon over :0)
>
> Holly wants to see it live and hasn't.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/25/03 11:12:48 AM, unolist@... writes:
<< Columbus, Ohio. C'mon over :0) >>
It's tempting.
<< Columbus, Ohio. C'mon over :0) >>
It's tempting.
Jana Eagle
"MARK and JULIE SOLICH" <mjsolich@...> writes:
when I was (guessing) 7 or so, and later when I was older I read
C.S. Lewis's Surprised By Joy when he talked about his spirituality.
When I was a kid I didn't realise at all that the Narnia books were
christian. i see that now.
jana
> Although not directly about Jesus, The Chronicles of Narnia are a beautifulI agree with you, I totally LOVE the Narnia Series! I first read them
> picture of God and Jesus. They are some of our favourite stories, maybe your
> daughter would enjoy them.
when I was (guessing) 7 or so, and later when I was older I read
C.S. Lewis's Surprised By Joy when he talked about his spirituality.
When I was a kid I didn't realise at all that the Narnia books were
christian. i see that now.
jana
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/26/03 9:34:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, jana@...
writes:
I didn't know the meaning behind the Narnia series either until I was an
adult too, i don't think I read the Lion but it was read to me and the class
in grade school. I want to start reading Lion aloud to my kids, if they want
to <g> if not I'll be reading aloud to myself LOL
Ang
Unschooling mom to
Megan(10) Ashlyn(3) Christian(1.5)
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/unolist/index.html">UNO Unschoolers Network of Ohio</A>
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/megamom08/page1.html">My Links Page MEGAMOM08</A>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> , I totally LOVE the Narnia Series! I first read themI am reading Mere Christianity by Lewis now. First thing I have read by him.
> when I was (guessing) 7 or so, and later when I was older I read
> C.S. Lewis's Surprised By Joy
I didn't know the meaning behind the Narnia series either until I was an
adult too, i don't think I read the Lion but it was read to me and the class
in grade school. I want to start reading Lion aloud to my kids, if they want
to <g> if not I'll be reading aloud to myself LOL
Ang
Unschooling mom to
Megan(10) Ashlyn(3) Christian(1.5)
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/unolist/index.html">UNO Unschoolers Network of Ohio</A>
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/megamom08/page1.html">My Links Page MEGAMOM08</A>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Backstrom kelli
my ten year old an dI are part of a book group through the library and I am hoping that we read these books again soon! I loved them sooo much! We just read a book by Jaques (?) called Redwall. I didnt like it as much as the Narnia books though. Kelli
Karin <curtkar@...> wrote:
Blockbuster.
It was really good! We enjoyed it.
I'm going to check and see if some of the other books were also made into
films.
Karin
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Karin <curtkar@...> wrote:
> > , I totally LOVE the Narnia Series! I first read themhim.
> > when I was (guessing) 7 or so, and later when I was older I read
> > C.S. Lewis's Surprised By Joy
>
> I am reading Mere Christianity by Lewis now. First thing I have read by
> I didn't know the meaning behind the Narnia series either until I was anclass
> adult too, i don't think I read the Lion but it was read to me and the
> in grade school. I want to start reading Lion aloud to my kids, if theywant
> to <g> if not I'll be reading aloud to myself LOLWe recently watched The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe on tape rented from
>
> Ang
> Unschooling mom to
> Megan(10) Ashlyn(3) Christian(1.5)
Blockbuster.
It was really good! We enjoyed it.
I'm going to check and see if some of the other books were also made into
films.
Karin
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karin
> > , I totally LOVE the Narnia Series! I first read themhim.
> > when I was (guessing) 7 or so, and later when I was older I read
> > C.S. Lewis's Surprised By Joy
>
> I am reading Mere Christianity by Lewis now. First thing I have read by
> I didn't know the meaning behind the Narnia series either until I was anclass
> adult too, i don't think I read the Lion but it was read to me and the
> in grade school. I want to start reading Lion aloud to my kids, if theywant
> to <g> if not I'll be reading aloud to myself LOLWe recently watched The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe on tape rented from
>
> Ang
> Unschooling mom to
> Megan(10) Ashlyn(3) Christian(1.5)
Blockbuster.
It was really good! We enjoyed it.
I'm going to check and see if some of the other books were also made into
films.
Karin
Robin Bentley
Are the Redwall books (by Brian Jacques) meant to be about Christianity? I
always felt that though they had an abbey and monks, it didn't mean to tell
the story of Christianity in the same way as the allegorical Narnia books.
Am I just un-enlightened about this? I thought they were mostly about
yummy-sounding food <bg>
Robin B.
just read a book by Jaques (?) called Redwall. I didnt like it as much as
the Narnia books though. Kelli
always felt that though they had an abbey and monks, it didn't mean to tell
the story of Christianity in the same way as the allegorical Narnia books.
Am I just un-enlightened about this? I thought they were mostly about
yummy-sounding food <bg>
Robin B.
>am hoping that we read these books again soon! I loved them sooo much! We
> my ten year old an dI are part of a book group through the library and I
just read a book by Jaques (?) called Redwall. I didnt like it as much as
the Narnia books though. Kelli
[email protected]
"What makes one belief system a cult? How do we determine cult vs. valid
belief system?"
Well, here is a really good overview of the term cult. WARNING: Long post,
skip if you aren't interested. It annoys me to call Mithraism a cult...I
think that's more of a Christian thing to label it as such. I prefer to call
it a religion.
The church I was raised in fits a LOT of the definitions you'll see towards
the end of this post. THAT is cultish to me.
There has been much confusion about cults and how to 'pickem'.
Some have difficulty identifying a cult because it is not so easy to identify
one that is not even religious. For this reason, over the years, different
definitions of what actually is a cult have developed to make it easier when
you know little about their beliefs.
The different definitions:
SECULAR DEFINITION
CULT - From the Latin "cultis" which denotes all that is involved in worship,
ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude. This definition actually denotes what
we call denominations and sects and would make all religious movements a
cult.
CHRISTIAN DEFINITION
CULT - Any group which deviates from Biblical, orthodox, historical
Christianity. e.i. They deny the Deity of Christ; His physical resurrection;
His personal and physical return to earth and salvation by FAITH alone.
This definition only covers those groups which are cults within the Christian
religion. It does not cover cults within other world religions such as Islam
and Hinduism. Nor does it cover Psychological, Commercial or Educational
cults which do not recognize the Bible as a source of reality.
UNIVERSAL DEFINITION
CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure
with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The
group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate
Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or
mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. This
definition covers cults within all majopr world religions, along with those
cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational
and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but
this is the simplest to work from. THE 'ORTHODOX BIBLE-BASED CULT'
A group is called a cult because of their behaviour - not their doctrines.
Doctrine is an issue in the area of Apologetics and Heresy. Most religious
cults do teach what the Christian church would declare to be heresy but some
do not. Some cults teach the basics of the Christian faith but have
behavioural patterns that are abusive, controlling and cultic.
This occurs in both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic churches. These groups
teach the central doctrines of the Christian faith and then add the extra
authority of leadership or someone's particular writings. They centre around
the interpretations of the leadership and submissive and unquestioning
acceptance of these is essential to be a member of good standing. This
acceptance includes what we consider non-essential doctrines e.i. not
salvation issues (such as the Person and Work of Christ.) The key is that
they will be using mind control or undue influence on their members.
An excellent book on this subject is "Churches that Abuse" by Dr Ronald
Enroth.
Using these guidelines of definition, Bible-based, Psychological, Educational
and Commercial aberrations can easily be identified.
OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS
(a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and
a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong.
THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL - everyone else is in apostasy.
(b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse God-given
personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL,
SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.
HOW THEY DO THIS
Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or
position of authority given by God.
They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance
regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and exalting
their own group, leader/s and work.
They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to
their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by
God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family
and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process.
Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group.
This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their
property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those
who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the
group as part of their "ministry".
At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take up
free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell literature and
tapes. They usually brag that they don't do this. This gives outsiders the
intimation that they are not interested in money.
There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The
lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group's activities. They
will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and
emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process.
There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of
members. This control can be direct through communal living, or constant and
repetitious teaching on "how to be a true Christian" or "being obedient to
leadership". Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything
they do.
Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity distinction and no
paid ministry class - that they are all equal.
Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged. Criticism
in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority,
unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained.
Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way.
This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members (including family)
under the guise of looking out for "spiritual welfare".
They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception/theocratic
strategy) or give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment.
Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met
with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives
or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by this.
Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members
with coercion to get them to return to the group.
SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:-
1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not
permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what
they are told.
2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses,
children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.
3. ABUSE OF FINANCES Pressure to give all you can to the group. In
non-communal groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata,
not because of a lower income level, but because they are always giving money
to the group for some reason.
4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY Isolation from the community in general. Anyone
and everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or "unenlightened"
etc. Their enemies now include former friends; the Christian church;
governments; education systems; the media - the world in general. Those who
are involved with these in any way see such involvement as a "means to an
end".
5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY The group controls and uses almost all the
members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant
state of mental and physical exhaustion.
6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings
and directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will" actually
becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it. This is done either by
coercive methods including low protein diets and lack of sleep, or over a
period of time through intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of "guilt".
RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE
PERSONALITY CHANGES
Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person. From a warm, loving
personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult
member sees himself as "righteous" in comparison and this comes across in
their attitude toward all outsiders.
LOSS OF IDENTITY
They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group. Some even
change their name as a rejection of their former life.
PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED
Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no,
it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen
as persecution only because they are the "true Christian" or "enlightened"
one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However,
at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say
and do because they are "the only ones who are right".
SOCIAL DISORIENTATION
They lose their ability to socialize outside the group. This can go so far as
to not being able to structure their time or make simple decisions for
themselves when they leave.
Their world-view alters and they perceive the world through their leaders
eyes. They become very naive about life in general.
SEVERE GUILT COMPLEXES
They are made to feel guilty of everything they did before entering the group
and are to strive to be "good" and "worthy" for "eternal life". Misdemeanors
are made into "mountains" so that members are in a constant state of guilt
for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt comes because they aren't
doing enough; entertaining doubts or questions; even thinking rationally for
oneself.
This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly being laid down about
what is sinful and what is not. Illness may be seen as lack of faith - more
guilt. Emotional illness may be seen as proof of sin in your life - more
guilt.
SUMMARY
Not all these points will be found in every cult, but all cults will have
some if not most of them, although these may vary to some degree.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
belief system?"
Well, here is a really good overview of the term cult. WARNING: Long post,
skip if you aren't interested. It annoys me to call Mithraism a cult...I
think that's more of a Christian thing to label it as such. I prefer to call
it a religion.
The church I was raised in fits a LOT of the definitions you'll see towards
the end of this post. THAT is cultish to me.
There has been much confusion about cults and how to 'pickem'.
Some have difficulty identifying a cult because it is not so easy to identify
one that is not even religious. For this reason, over the years, different
definitions of what actually is a cult have developed to make it easier when
you know little about their beliefs.
The different definitions:
SECULAR DEFINITION
CULT - From the Latin "cultis" which denotes all that is involved in worship,
ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude. This definition actually denotes what
we call denominations and sects and would make all religious movements a
cult.
CHRISTIAN DEFINITION
CULT - Any group which deviates from Biblical, orthodox, historical
Christianity. e.i. They deny the Deity of Christ; His physical resurrection;
His personal and physical return to earth and salvation by FAITH alone.
This definition only covers those groups which are cults within the Christian
religion. It does not cover cults within other world religions such as Islam
and Hinduism. Nor does it cover Psychological, Commercial or Educational
cults which do not recognize the Bible as a source of reality.
UNIVERSAL DEFINITION
CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure
with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The
group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate
Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or
mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. This
definition covers cults within all majopr world religions, along with those
cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational
and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but
this is the simplest to work from. THE 'ORTHODOX BIBLE-BASED CULT'
A group is called a cult because of their behaviour - not their doctrines.
Doctrine is an issue in the area of Apologetics and Heresy. Most religious
cults do teach what the Christian church would declare to be heresy but some
do not. Some cults teach the basics of the Christian faith but have
behavioural patterns that are abusive, controlling and cultic.
This occurs in both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic churches. These groups
teach the central doctrines of the Christian faith and then add the extra
authority of leadership or someone's particular writings. They centre around
the interpretations of the leadership and submissive and unquestioning
acceptance of these is essential to be a member of good standing. This
acceptance includes what we consider non-essential doctrines e.i. not
salvation issues (such as the Person and Work of Christ.) The key is that
they will be using mind control or undue influence on their members.
An excellent book on this subject is "Churches that Abuse" by Dr Ronald
Enroth.
Using these guidelines of definition, Bible-based, Psychological, Educational
and Commercial aberrations can easily be identified.
OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS
(a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and
a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong.
THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL - everyone else is in apostasy.
(b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse God-given
personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL,
SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.
HOW THEY DO THIS
Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or
position of authority given by God.
They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance
regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and exalting
their own group, leader/s and work.
They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to
their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by
God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family
and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process.
Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group.
This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their
property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those
who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the
group as part of their "ministry".
At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take up
free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell literature and
tapes. They usually brag that they don't do this. This gives outsiders the
intimation that they are not interested in money.
There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The
lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group's activities. They
will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and
emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process.
There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of
members. This control can be direct through communal living, or constant and
repetitious teaching on "how to be a true Christian" or "being obedient to
leadership". Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything
they do.
Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity distinction and no
paid ministry class - that they are all equal.
Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged. Criticism
in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority,
unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained.
Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way.
This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members (including family)
under the guise of looking out for "spiritual welfare".
They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception/theocratic
strategy) or give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment.
Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met
with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives
or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by this.
Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members
with coercion to get them to return to the group.
SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:-
1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not
permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what
they are told.
2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses,
children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.
3. ABUSE OF FINANCES Pressure to give all you can to the group. In
non-communal groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata,
not because of a lower income level, but because they are always giving money
to the group for some reason.
4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY Isolation from the community in general. Anyone
and everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or "unenlightened"
etc. Their enemies now include former friends; the Christian church;
governments; education systems; the media - the world in general. Those who
are involved with these in any way see such involvement as a "means to an
end".
5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY The group controls and uses almost all the
members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant
state of mental and physical exhaustion.
6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings
and directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will" actually
becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it. This is done either by
coercive methods including low protein diets and lack of sleep, or over a
period of time through intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of "guilt".
RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE
PERSONALITY CHANGES
Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person. From a warm, loving
personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult
member sees himself as "righteous" in comparison and this comes across in
their attitude toward all outsiders.
LOSS OF IDENTITY
They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group. Some even
change their name as a rejection of their former life.
PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED
Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no,
it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen
as persecution only because they are the "true Christian" or "enlightened"
one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However,
at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say
and do because they are "the only ones who are right".
SOCIAL DISORIENTATION
They lose their ability to socialize outside the group. This can go so far as
to not being able to structure their time or make simple decisions for
themselves when they leave.
Their world-view alters and they perceive the world through their leaders
eyes. They become very naive about life in general.
SEVERE GUILT COMPLEXES
They are made to feel guilty of everything they did before entering the group
and are to strive to be "good" and "worthy" for "eternal life". Misdemeanors
are made into "mountains" so that members are in a constant state of guilt
for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt comes because they aren't
doing enough; entertaining doubts or questions; even thinking rationally for
oneself.
This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly being laid down about
what is sinful and what is not. Illness may be seen as lack of faith - more
guilt. Emotional illness may be seen as proof of sin in your life - more
guilt.
SUMMARY
Not all these points will be found in every cult, but all cults will have
some if not most of them, although these may vary to some degree.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
sennmanor
--- In [email protected], starsuncloud@c... wrote:
view. From a history of religions view, in the Roman understanding
of "religion" there was no distinction between "cult" and "belief
system." Everything was "cultus." I could have referred to "mystery
religions" in my post instead of "mystery cults," and it would have
avoided the confusion that the modern use of the word "cult" in its
several senses has generated. But for the ancient Romans, emperor
worship was a cultus, Jupiter worship was a cultus, Mithraism was a
cultus, Christianity was a cultus. When Christianity was granted
legal recognition in the Roman Empire by Constantine in 313 (the
Edict of Milan), it was granted a license as a cult.
By the way, the ancient Romans would have regarded cults more as
ritual systems than as belief systems. Belief system would be a
modern concept. Cultus was worship or ritual. That term remains in
use in the Roman Catholic Church for its system of worship
or "rituale." Also in Spanish, worship or ritual is "culto." This
is obviously a very different use of the term "cult" than when it is
used to designate a deviant group.
Frank and Mary
P.S. When I published a book on "Christian Worship in its Cultural
Setting" in 1983, I wanted to give it the title "Cult and Culture."
I thought that had a nice alliteration. But the publisher didn't
want that title because Jonestown had just happened and they thought
the title would be very misleading.
Frank C. Senn
>valid
> "What makes one belief system a cult? How do we determine cult vs.
> belief system?"Ren provided a long definition of cult from a sociological point of
>
> ----Frances Hodgson Burnett
view. From a history of religions view, in the Roman understanding
of "religion" there was no distinction between "cult" and "belief
system." Everything was "cultus." I could have referred to "mystery
religions" in my post instead of "mystery cults," and it would have
avoided the confusion that the modern use of the word "cult" in its
several senses has generated. But for the ancient Romans, emperor
worship was a cultus, Jupiter worship was a cultus, Mithraism was a
cultus, Christianity was a cultus. When Christianity was granted
legal recognition in the Roman Empire by Constantine in 313 (the
Edict of Milan), it was granted a license as a cult.
By the way, the ancient Romans would have regarded cults more as
ritual systems than as belief systems. Belief system would be a
modern concept. Cultus was worship or ritual. That term remains in
use in the Roman Catholic Church for its system of worship
or "rituale." Also in Spanish, worship or ritual is "culto." This
is obviously a very different use of the term "cult" than when it is
used to designate a deviant group.
Frank and Mary
P.S. When I published a book on "Christian Worship in its Cultural
Setting" in 1983, I wanted to give it the title "Cult and Culture."
I thought that had a nice alliteration. But the publisher didn't
want that title because Jonestown had just happened and they thought
the title would be very misleading.
Frank C. Senn
sablehs
Thanks for clearing that up. I don't think we understood from what stance you were speaking from.
I do however disagree and believe history shows that Christianity had a lot to do with the downfall of Mithraism. For example we know one of the largest Mithraic temples built in Italy, is under the present day Church of St. Clemente, in Rome near the Colosseum.
Christianity being so similar to Mithraism as well as adopting so many of the same features of it's rival religions, not to mention being the sanctioned religion of the state, I don't feel it is a leap of faith to say that it did indeed have a pretty big cause and effect on other religions.
I'm not so sure there was quite so much of the, "get baptized or die" during this time {though undoubtedly there was some of that going on, due to documented evidence } as much as the sly switcharoo by the state, along with the destruction of the old and rebuilding of the new and "approved".
Maybe it is better for us to agree to disagree. :-)
Tracy
sennmanor <sennmanor@...> wrote:
Ren provided a long definition of cult from a sociological point of
view. From a history of religions view, in the Roman understanding
of "religion" there was no distinction between "cult" and "belief
system." Everything was "cultus." I could have referred to "mystery
religions" in my post instead of "mystery cults," and it would have
avoided the confusion that the modern use of the word "cult" in its
several senses has generated. But for the ancient Romans, emperor
worship was a cultus, Jupiter worship was a cultus, Mithraism was a
cultus, Christianity was a cultus. When Christianity was granted
legal recognition in the Roman Empire by Constantine in 313 (the
Edict of Milan), it was granted a license as a cult.
By the way, the ancient Romans would have regarded cults more as
ritual systems than as belief systems. Belief system would be a
modern concept. Cultus was worship or ritual. That term remains in
use in the Roman Catholic Church for its system of worship
or "rituale." Also in Spanish, worship or ritual is "culto." This
is obviously a very different use of the term "cult" than when it is
used to designate a deviant group.
Frank and Mary
P.S. When I published a book on "Christian Worship in its Cultural
Setting" in 1983, I wanted to give it the title "Cult and Culture."
I thought that had a nice alliteration. But the publisher didn't
want that title because Jonestown had just happened and they thought
the title would be very misleading.
Frank C. Senn
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I do however disagree and believe history shows that Christianity had a lot to do with the downfall of Mithraism. For example we know one of the largest Mithraic temples built in Italy, is under the present day Church of St. Clemente, in Rome near the Colosseum.
Christianity being so similar to Mithraism as well as adopting so many of the same features of it's rival religions, not to mention being the sanctioned religion of the state, I don't feel it is a leap of faith to say that it did indeed have a pretty big cause and effect on other religions.
I'm not so sure there was quite so much of the, "get baptized or die" during this time {though undoubtedly there was some of that going on, due to documented evidence } as much as the sly switcharoo by the state, along with the destruction of the old and rebuilding of the new and "approved".
Maybe it is better for us to agree to disagree. :-)
Tracy
sennmanor <sennmanor@...> wrote:
Ren provided a long definition of cult from a sociological point of
view. From a history of religions view, in the Roman understanding
of "religion" there was no distinction between "cult" and "belief
system." Everything was "cultus." I could have referred to "mystery
religions" in my post instead of "mystery cults," and it would have
avoided the confusion that the modern use of the word "cult" in its
several senses has generated. But for the ancient Romans, emperor
worship was a cultus, Jupiter worship was a cultus, Mithraism was a
cultus, Christianity was a cultus. When Christianity was granted
legal recognition in the Roman Empire by Constantine in 313 (the
Edict of Milan), it was granted a license as a cult.
By the way, the ancient Romans would have regarded cults more as
ritual systems than as belief systems. Belief system would be a
modern concept. Cultus was worship or ritual. That term remains in
use in the Roman Catholic Church for its system of worship
or "rituale." Also in Spanish, worship or ritual is "culto." This
is obviously a very different use of the term "cult" than when it is
used to designate a deviant group.
Frank and Mary
P.S. When I published a book on "Christian Worship in its Cultural
Setting" in 1983, I wanted to give it the title "Cult and Culture."
I thought that had a nice alliteration. But the publisher didn't
want that title because Jonestown had just happened and they thought
the title would be very misleading.
Frank C. Senn
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>From a history of religions view, in the Roman understandingWhy are they a mystery then?
>of "religion" there was no distinction between "cult" and "belief
>system." Everything was "cultus." I could have referred to "mystery
>religions" in my post instead of "mystery cults,">>
Life is good.
~Mary, loving all this new information
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh
_________________________________________________________________
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Sorcha
>>>Why are they a mystery then?<<<The term "mystery" in mystery cult or mystery religion refers to
something that cannot be explained in words but has to be experienced.
Mystery religions had initiation ceremonies that involved being part of
an elaborate play that imparted a religious feeling. I think of it as
the feeling Christians have when they see a passion play. The beliefs
of the religion aren't secret, but the "mysteries" can only be felt, not
spoken.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>The term "mystery" in mystery cult or mystery religion refers tosomething that cannot be explained in words but has to be experienced.
Mystery religions had initiation ceremonies that involved being part of
an elaborate play that imparted a religious feeling. I think of it as
the feeling Christians have when they see a passion play. The beliefs
of the religion aren't secret, but the "mysteries" can only be felt, not
spoken.>>
So then why is one religion called a mystery, but not others? Don't they all
have some aspect that needs to be experienced? In your examples above, I
would then think of Mormons as a mystery religion as they have many secret
initiations and ceremonies. But I've never heard that term used. And would
the passion play experience qualify Christianity as a mystery? Or is this
just a term used for past religions/cults?
Just thinking out loud and wondering.
Life is good.
~Mary
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh
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Kelly Lenhart
>So then why is one religion called a mystery, but not others? Don't theyall
>have some aspect that needs to be experienced?Sort of, yes. But "revealed" religions like Islam and Christianity say that
>Just thinking out loud and wondering.
>Life is good.
>~Mary
it's all right there in the Bible/Koran and you just need to believe it. A
mystery religion involves a certain level of personal involvment in the
mystery.
Catholicism is Christian cult (in it's technical sense) which has mystery
aspects--mass, passion plays. But Wicca is a mystery religion--all of its
ritual includes the participants being active parts of the "change" that
goes on.
Kelly
(pagan)
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Sorcha
I will try to explain this as well as I can from my limited knowledge.
I've been passionately interested in religion for over ten years and
done a lot of reading, but much of my reading has been "popular" books
rather than "scholarly" books. So this is my understanding, and I might
have no idea what I'm talking about. <G>
In mystery religions, people were sworn to secrecy about what happened
in their initiations. The beliefs weren't necessarily secret, and the
names of the god/desses worshiped weren't usually secret, but the
ceremony itself was secret because talking about it would dilute the
experience. The Christian passion play imparts the religious feelings
(and there's a book called The Jesus Mysteries which claims Christianity
was originally a mystery religion). But since I can tell you that Judas
betrayed him and he was executed on a cross and rose from the dead, it's
not a mystery.
There's much discussion in the Wiccan community about whether Wicca is
still a mystery religion. It was designed as one, but in the interest
of trying to prove they don't eat babies or sacrifice cats, Wiccan
authors have published their initiation rituals. So you could read a
"typical" initiation before actually being initiated, which would dilute
the mystery. Kind of how a fire drill fails to instill the same feeling
when you know you're having one that day, I guess.
The Eleusinian mysteries were enacted each year and we know it has
something to do with the goddesses Demeter and Persephone. But no one
knows what actually occurred.
If someone knows more about this than I do, I'd love to understand it
better.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've been passionately interested in religion for over ten years and
done a lot of reading, but much of my reading has been "popular" books
rather than "scholarly" books. So this is my understanding, and I might
have no idea what I'm talking about. <G>
In mystery religions, people were sworn to secrecy about what happened
in their initiations. The beliefs weren't necessarily secret, and the
names of the god/desses worshiped weren't usually secret, but the
ceremony itself was secret because talking about it would dilute the
experience. The Christian passion play imparts the religious feelings
(and there's a book called The Jesus Mysteries which claims Christianity
was originally a mystery religion). But since I can tell you that Judas
betrayed him and he was executed on a cross and rose from the dead, it's
not a mystery.
There's much discussion in the Wiccan community about whether Wicca is
still a mystery religion. It was designed as one, but in the interest
of trying to prove they don't eat babies or sacrifice cats, Wiccan
authors have published their initiation rituals. So you could read a
"typical" initiation before actually being initiated, which would dilute
the mystery. Kind of how a fire drill fails to instill the same feeling
when you know you're having one that day, I guess.
The Eleusinian mysteries were enacted each year and we know it has
something to do with the goddesses Demeter and Persephone. But no one
knows what actually occurred.
If someone knows more about this than I do, I'd love to understand it
better.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mamita Mala
Hola,
Sorcha <sorcha-aisling@...> wrote:
In mystery religions, people were sworn to secrecy about what happened
in their initiations. The beliefs weren't necessarily secret, and the
names of the god/desses worshiped weren't usually secret, but the
ceremony itself was secret because talking about it would dilute the
experience.
I know personally that this is especially true in many of the Afro-Caribbean religions (Lukumi, Palo, Voodun) The secrecy is also because there is a certain learning and understanding process that initiates need to go through. The secrecy also comes from the historical experience of persecution where people pretending to be wanna be initaites would really just end up exploiting and misrepresenting the religion not to mention the fact that for centuries people were not allowed to practice their own religion.
Sorcha also wrote:
There's much discussion in the Wiccan community about whether Wicca is
still a mystery religion. It was designed as one, but in the interest
of trying to prove they don't eat babies or sacrifice cats, Wiccan
authors have published their initiation rituals. So you could read a
"typical" initiation before actually being initiated, which would dilute
the mystery.
There is much discussion now as to is this should be happening in the Afro-Carribbean religious traditions as well. Some people say that some of the secrets should be revealed so that the practices can be more acceptable and so that the sterotypes can be gotten rid of.
Maegan la Mala
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sorcha <sorcha-aisling@...> wrote:
In mystery religions, people were sworn to secrecy about what happened
in their initiations. The beliefs weren't necessarily secret, and the
names of the god/desses worshiped weren't usually secret, but the
ceremony itself was secret because talking about it would dilute the
experience.
I know personally that this is especially true in many of the Afro-Caribbean religions (Lukumi, Palo, Voodun) The secrecy is also because there is a certain learning and understanding process that initiates need to go through. The secrecy also comes from the historical experience of persecution where people pretending to be wanna be initaites would really just end up exploiting and misrepresenting the religion not to mention the fact that for centuries people were not allowed to practice their own religion.
Sorcha also wrote:
There's much discussion in the Wiccan community about whether Wicca is
still a mystery religion. It was designed as one, but in the interest
of trying to prove they don't eat babies or sacrifice cats, Wiccan
authors have published their initiation rituals. So you could read a
"typical" initiation before actually being initiated, which would dilute
the mystery.
There is much discussion now as to is this should be happening in the Afro-Carribbean religious traditions as well. Some people say that some of the secrets should be revealed so that the practices can be more acceptable and so that the sterotypes can be gotten rid of.
Maegan la Mala
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Todo lo que quieres saber de Estados Unidos, América Latina y el resto del Mundo.
Visíta Yahoo! Noticias.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]