Cmkerin

It's great to learn that my children are capable of being 2% of the class
even though that's not my goal. If it turns out that my unschooled children
are at the top of thier class in college I would hope that I could tell
other unschoolers - if just to say "hey, unschooling doesn't hold one back
later in life either." :)

Joyce X





-----Original Message-----
From: KT [mailto:Tuck@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 9:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2234 Ned back to Helen


>
>
>Also, I wasn't sure that our educational experiment (inspired wholly by
>>reading and meeting John Holt) would be completely successful until
>>recently when our unschooling "poster boy" graduated from college in the
top
>>2% of his class, with supreme confidence in his own future.
>>
>
>
>I'll give you "supreme confidence in his own future", but the rest of
>that stuff makes me kinda sad. Was that always the goal? Top 2%? What
>about kindness, inquisitiveness, contentment? What about
>responsibility, honesty? I know that your son is most likely all of
>those things and more. But I feel unschooling is a success *every* day
>at every age, and that it can never be a failure. Because I don't get
>to make up the definition of success for my son's education, all I can
>focus on is parenting--and parenting doesn't get to claim the top 2%.
>

I want to clarify for everyone. I understand a sense of relief when a
child passes certain milestones. I was surprised how relieved I was
when Will learned to read at age 7. I'm relieved when my 20 yo doesn't
come home from college asking me for money, and I'm relieved when my 17
yo comes home at 3:00 a.m. and hasn't been picked up for curfew.

Maybe my standards are low, but I only concentrate on things I have any
influence or control over. I just can't get my hopes all worked up over
milestones as tenuous and uncertain as the top 2% of a graduating class.

Tuck



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Luz Shosie and Ned Vare

on 8/12/02 3:53 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> It's always easy to see wisdom in those who agree with you. The
> ultimate ego-trip.

Dear Helen,

You're right, of course. I respect you enormously.

I arrived with expectations (from the list name alone) that I had found
fellow-travellers, and almost immediately formed the impression that the
list was not performing the function I saw for it, so I started to make my
"inflammatory" views known, still seeking like minds. At first, it seemed,
that people were in denial (can this list really be for "newbies to
homeschooling"?). As objections grew, I got annoyed -- Whassamatter, can't
you see what we need to do....? -- I believed in the people who seemed to
appreciate hearing my views, and got more and more annoyed at the
complainers.

I am not young any more. I am not patient, and I am not optimistic these
days regarding the future of homeschooling freedom, so I have been seeing
some urgency in the struggle for it. We've been challengedthis year here in
(ironically) the Constitution State (CT), and I arrived at this list still
embittered by what our legislature almost did to us, without ever giving
notice. Added to that, I've just been sent a copy of the NEA Game Plan
against vouchers. I'm sure they have a similar one against homeschooling (is
that paranoid or a reasonable assumption?) We are, once again, looking a lot
like an underdog in a world controlled so tightly by politics.

I will, from now on, put my "militaristic" self on hold, and offer my
limited unschool experience to those who ask. No excuses. I promise.

I am not selling anything. I'm not even a candidate for anything this year.
I'm merely anxious, more than ever, about our country losing, or jettisoning
its freedoms in favor of "security" -- I'm sure you know what Jefferson told
us about that trade-off.

I haven't "waited until now" to make my views known. If you've checked the
AED list, you know I've been around, and as you know, Luz and I are writers
of articles that get circulated some. I've had actual occupations over the
years and parenting preoccupations that have held me at bay, so to speak.
Also, I wasn't sure that our educational experiment (inspired wholly by
reading and meeting John Holt) would be completely successful until
recently when our unschooling "poster boy" graduated from college in the top
2% of his class, with supreme confidence in his own future.

So now I can say, without my usual modesty, that unschooling works wonders.
The satisfaction is invigorating, and I'm afraid I spoiled a lot of that
vigor by mixing it with my equal faith in libertarian ideals. If I was
trying to sell something, it was liberty.

So, this clears the air for me -- I don't need the negatives any more than
you do -- I just had to push it to find out what the list was about, down
deep. As the kids say now, I'm cool with it. The baptism is over and I'll
take a seat, happily. I love talking about how our son raised himself as we
lovingly watched and trusted him. It was thrilling, and I'll write a book
about it.

But for now -- and you are the right person to ask -- can you tell me, where
is that vanguard I'm looking for, and do you think I can help them, given my
intense interest in improving the political climate in favor of
homeschooling?

Thanks for everything. (We still subscribe four years after emptying the
nest) Kind regards,

Ned Vare



I also see the growth of the practice, and it's encouraging.

Helen Hegener

At 2:13 AM -0400 8/13/02, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare wrote:
>I arrived with expectations (from the list name alone) that I had found
>fellow-travellers, and almost immediately formed the impression that the
>list was not performing the function I saw for it, so I started to make my
>"inflammatory" views known, still seeking like minds. At first, it seemed,
>that people were in denial (can this list really be for "newbies to
>homeschooling"?). As objections grew, I got annoyed -- Whassamatter, can't
>you see what we need to do....? -- I believed in the people who seemed to
>appreciate hearing my views, and got more and more annoyed at the
>complainers.

I *thought* that was what was happening. Glad to know my ability to
read between the lines and put the puzzle pieces together hasn't
diminished over the years. <g>

>I am not young any more. I am not patient, and I am not optimistic these
>days regarding the future of homeschooling freedom,

I hear you, Ned. I'm a grandmother five times over, my patience has
been shot to pieces by my parents' medical hassles in the last year
(dealing with doctors will drive you right over the edge of reason),
and the future of homeschooling as you and I knew it way back when
seems to be going down the drain in state after state. I've written
extensively on this in other forums, and in HEM, so I won't beleaguer
the point here.

>so I have been seeing
>some urgency in the struggle for it. We've been challengedthis year here in
>(ironically) the Constitution State (CT), and I arrived at this list still
>embittered by what our legislature almost did to us, without ever giving
>notice. Added to that, I've just been sent a copy of the NEA Game Plan
>against vouchers. I'm sure they have a similar one against homeschooling (is
>that paranoid or a reasonable assumption?) We are, once again, looking a lot
>like an underdog in a world controlled so tightly by politics.

Of course we're the underdogs. I wish I had some cheerful upbeat
comeback about us irrepressible unschoolers, but the fact is I'm not
convinced that we'll be able to hold onto the freedoms we have.

>I will, from now on, put my "militaristic" self on hold, and offer my
>limited unschool experience to those who ask. No excuses. I promise.

I deeply appreciate that, Ned.

>I am not selling anything. I'm not even a candidate for anything this year.

So was that really you in the photo in Rolling Stone with Michael
Solheim and Joe Edwards? <g>

>I'm merely anxious, more than ever, about our country losing, or jettisoning
>its freedoms in favor of "security" -- I'm sure you know what Jefferson told
>us about that trade-off.

Yep. Those who would give up freedom in order to get security don't
deserve either one. Or something to that effect.

I could write a book on how the current administration's actions are
scaring the bejeebers out of me, but that's for another time, another
list. <g>

>I haven't "waited until now" to make my views known. If you've checked the
>AED list, you know I've been around, and as you know, Luz and I are writers
>of articles that get circulated some.

I dropped off the AED list some time ago. But I've seen your
writings, and Luz's, and very thoughtful ones they've been. Would you
believe the two of you are on my list of potential interviewees for
HEM? No, really. (But the next two issues are already covered...)

> I've had actual occupations over the
>years and parenting preoccupations that have held me at bay, so to speak.
>Also, I wasn't sure that our educational experiment (inspired wholly by
>reading and meeting John Holt) would be completely successful until
>recently when our unschooling "poster boy" graduated from college in the top
>2% of his class, with supreme confidence in his own future.

I always enjoy reading your proud writings about your son (Cassidy,
right?). All five of our always-unschooled kids have gone into the
workworld and amazed us with their skills and expertise (I mean, one
son became an industrial electrician, and another went into
construction specializing in steel metal buildings, and both quickly
moved into management positions - where in all their unschooling did
they learn *those* kinds of skills?). I've written about our kids at
great length on this list and others, so again, I'll just advise
anyone interested to check the archives.

>So now I can say, without my usual modesty, that unschooling works wonders.
>The satisfaction is invigorating, and I'm afraid I spoiled a lot of that
>vigor by mixing it with my equal faith in libertarian ideals. If I was
>trying to sell something, it was liberty.

We can all use more of that. I've always been interested in
Libertarian ideas, but when push comes to shove it seems like just
another political party to me. I feel politics are like religion -
best kept between oneself and damn few others. <g>

>So, this clears the air for me -- I don't need the negatives any more than
>you do -- I just had to push it to find out what the list was about, down
>deep. As the kids say now, I'm cool with it. The baptism is over and I'll
>take a seat, happily.

Well, you've been a real pain in the rear in some aspects, but
heck... Welcome aboard!

> I love talking about how our son raised himself as we
>lovingly watched and trusted him. It was thrilling, and I'll write a book
>about it.

And I'll be standing in line to buy one!

>But for now -- and you are the right person to ask -- can you tell me, where
>is that vanguard I'm looking for, and do you think I can help them, given my
>intense interest in improving the political climate in favor of
>homeschooling?

I suggest the NHEN-Legislative list, and yeah, I know you're on there
already. I've quit participating in that list for reasons that should
be clear if you read much of the archives, but it's still one of the
best for working toward change. Otherwise our HEM-Networking list can
be a pretty rollicking list when it gets off dead center. It's there
now mostly because I've been travelling all this year (I'm currently
on my fifth trip to Alaska since January). If life ever settles down
again I'd really like to seriously address some of the kinds of
issues you've brought up here. But PUH-LEEZE let me get off this
doggone 800# access before you engage on another of *our* lists! <g>

>Thanks for everything. (We still subscribe four years after emptying the
>nest) Kind regards,

I'm glad to know you still find enough of interest in HEM. We try
hard to keep it lively. <g>

> I also see the growth of the practice, and it's encouraging.

I assume you mean the growth of homeschooling? It's reaching
astonishing proportions, and seems to be accelerating, even. I'm
still not sure if that's a good thing, for as John Holt (dear wise
old fellow) pointed out many years ago, once homeschooling reaches a
certain critical mass it won't slip under the educrats' radar nearly
as smoothly...

Helen

[email protected]

<<But I feel unschooling is a success *every* day
at every age, and that it can never be a failure. Because I don't get
to make up the definition of success for my son's education, all I can
focus on is parenting--and parenting doesn't get to claim the top 2%.

Tuck>>


Marvelous response Tuck! I agree wholeheartedly!
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

KT

>
>
>Also, I wasn't sure that our educational experiment (inspired wholly by
>reading and meeting John Holt) would be completely successful until
>recently when our unschooling "poster boy" graduated from college in the top
>2% of his class, with supreme confidence in his own future.
>

I'll give you "supreme confidence in his own future", but the rest of
that stuff makes me kinda sad. Was that always the goal? Top 2%? What
about kindness, inquisitiveness, contentment? What about
responsibility, honesty? I know that your son is most likely all of
those things and more. But I feel unschooling is a success *every* day
at every age, and that it can never be a failure. Because I don't get
to make up the definition of success for my son's education, all I can
focus on is parenting--and parenting doesn't get to claim the top 2%.

Tuck

KT

>
>
>Also, I wasn't sure that our educational experiment (inspired wholly by
>>reading and meeting John Holt) would be completely successful until
>>recently when our unschooling "poster boy" graduated from college in the top
>>2% of his class, with supreme confidence in his own future.
>>
>
>
>I'll give you "supreme confidence in his own future", but the rest of
>that stuff makes me kinda sad. Was that always the goal? Top 2%? What
>about kindness, inquisitiveness, contentment? What about
>responsibility, honesty? I know that your son is most likely all of
>those things and more. But I feel unschooling is a success *every* day
>at every age, and that it can never be a failure. Because I don't get
>to make up the definition of success for my son's education, all I can
>focus on is parenting--and parenting doesn't get to claim the top 2%.
>

I want to clarify for everyone. I understand a sense of relief when a
child passes certain milestones. I was surprised how relieved I was
when Will learned to read at age 7. I'm relieved when my 20 yo doesn't
come home from college asking me for money, and I'm relieved when my 17
yo comes home at 3:00 a.m. and hasn't been picked up for curfew.

Maybe my standards are low, but I only concentrate on things I have any
influence or control over. I just can't get my hopes all worked up over
milestones as tenuous and uncertain as the top 2% of a graduating class.

Tuck

Tia Leschke

>
>I arrived with expectations (from the list name alone) that I had found
>fellow-travellers, and almost immediately formed the impression that the
>list was not performing the function I saw for it, so I started to make my
>"inflammatory" views known, still seeking like minds.

This was your first mistake, Ned. The last thing most people on an
established list want to see is someone coming on to tell them that their
list is not performing the function the newbie sees for it. I'm not saying
that lists can't change and evolve, but they rarely do in response to a
newbie's complaints.

As for seeking like minds . . . if you were doing more listening than
talking at first, you would have discovered that most of the people on this
list share at least *some* of your views. Obviously, if you were looking
just for libertarian unschoolers willing to become activists for freedom of
education, you'd only find a few. But if you were looking for unschoolers
who were interested in *exploring* ideas about freedom and activism, you
probably would have found a lot more. I'm sure you and I could find lots
to agree on, for instance. But when you start with the libertarian stuff,
*assuming* that everyone will agree with you because you're sure it's the
right path, then you lose me and probably a lot of others. My libertarian
brother-in-law has managed to put me totally off that philosophy with his
constant, angry hatred of government in all forms. He has completely
destroyed my daughter's relationship with my sister, all because she spent
a few years as a single parent on welfare. (Like my granddaughter deserved
to spend years in daycare just because her mother chose the wrong man to be
her father.)


>I am not young any more. I am not patient, and I am not optimistic these
>days regarding the future of homeschooling freedom, so I have been seeing
>some urgency in the struggle for it. We've been challengedthis year here in
>(ironically) the Constitution State (CT), and I arrived at this list still
>embittered by what our legislature almost did to us, without ever giving
>notice. Added to that, I've just been sent a copy of the NEA Game Plan
>against vouchers. I'm sure they have a similar one against homeschooling (is
>that paranoid or a reasonable assumption?) We are, once again, looking a lot
>like an underdog in a world controlled so tightly by politics.
>
>I will, from now on, put my "militaristic" self on hold, and offer my
>limited unschool experience to those who ask. No excuses. I promise.

I can see where you're coming from, and I understand your concern. I do
think that you'll be much more effective having lost the bitter anger
against *everyone* in the education system and the government. I know that
I can't buy the argument that they're all evil. They may be *wrong* <g>
but most of them aren't evil. In fact, they're probably all the more
dangerous just because they believe so strongly that they're doing what's
best for kids or the country, or whatever. And I think they really and
truly do believe that. I don't believe that most teachers are just out to
protect their jobs, though their union makes it sound as if they are. I
know teachers who homeschool their kids, who believe in vouchers,
etc. They do the best they can within the constraints of the system, but
they also don't subject their own kids to it having seen it from the inside.


>I am not selling anything. I'm not even a candidate for anything this year.
>I'm merely anxious, more than ever, about our country losing, or jettisoning
>its freedoms in favor of "security" -- I'm sure you know what Jefferson told
>us about that trade-off.

Yup. I definitely share your concern about that. It was almost my first
thought after hearing about the twin towers.


>Also, I wasn't sure that our educational experiment (inspired wholly by
>reading and meeting John Holt) would be completely successful until
>recently when our unschooling "poster boy" graduated from college in the top
>2% of his class, with supreme confidence in his own future.

I do hope that you aren't holding up his path into the world as the only
measure of success in unschooling. I have a son who will probably never go
to university (though I could end up eating my words - you can save them
for me if you want.) My son is definitely not an unschooling poster boy by
that standard. But I do believe he's going to be successful in whatever he
ends up doing with his life. That and being relatively happy are my goals
for him.


>So now I can say, without my usual modesty, that unschooling works wonders.
>The satisfaction is invigorating, and I'm afraid I spoiled a lot of that
>vigor by mixing it with my equal faith in libertarian ideals. If I was
>trying to sell something, it was liberty.

Hey! I'll buy that. It's just that you and I have somewhat differing
definitions of liberty. <g>


>So, this clears the air for me -- I don't need the negatives any more than
>you do -- I just had to push it to find out what the list was about, down
>deep. As the kids say now, I'm cool with it. The baptism is over and I'll
>take a seat, happily. I love talking about how our son raised himself as we
>lovingly watched and trusted him. It was thrilling, and I'll write a book
>about it.

I'll read it.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island