Free People, or not Free?
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/10/02 8:09:48 AM, nedvare@... writes:
<< OK, so my point was that the state in MA puts requirements on homeschoolers
that some homeschoolers fulfill by lying about their plans. The Bryants did
not accept forced lying, preferring to be truthful and to expect decent
treatment by the state authorities. Instead, the state refused to accept
honesty and insisted that they lie in order to be free. >>
Your either/or dichotomies create falsehood.
It is possible to submit a plan which is not a lie.
<<Are Americans in Massachusetts free people, or not? Are you telling us that
regulations created by one-size-fits-all bureaucrats are fine, just because
they are "easy to fill out"? Whose side are you on?>>
This was addressed to Joyce, not me. But the continuing stridency of the
rhetoric you use ("Whose side are you on?" as though there are only two
sides) does nothing but flood this list with strident rhetoric and insult.
<<The Bryants are taking one small step, at huge personal expense and risk, in
order to help ALL homeschoolers everywhere, and you say they should cave in
to a bad regulation supported by a vindictive and stupid judge?>>
Here's "whose side" I am on:
My life is lived with priorities, NOT with choosing sides.
My priorities involve maintaining a safe and peaceful and stimulating
environment for my kids. They're happy and they're thoughtful and they're
considerate of other people.
My priorities philosohically involve truth and goodness and living in the
world. I don't mean knowing the One Big Truth because I don't think there is
one. But just because there's no one truth doesn't mean there's no such
thing as bullshit. The people I have around me care about their own
integrity and about being better people on an individual bases. Virtues and
ethics.
No one person can do everything in the world. People make choices. My
choices keep me busy already and being involved in political activism is not
on my list, but I have friends who are politically involved and I appreciate
that they are. I have friends who are childless and they appreciate that I
had children. We don't have to divide the world into us and them and take a
side.
<<Please restore my faith here. Explain your stance.>>
Your faith in Joyce won't help or hurt you or the list, will it?
Oh. It was just an insult, not a real request.
Joyce, don't explain anything. Ned will just insult your explanation.
I think if Ned is left to continue here he will do so without regard to the
listowner's wishes or anyone else's.
I think if Ned is removed from the list he will go elsewhere and characterize
this list falsely and tell his own version of what happened without regard to
what anyone else said or ever will say. I saw him ignore others' feelings
and experiences and statements about learning to read. I think its a "damned
if you do and damned if you don't" situation.
Sandra
<< OK, so my point was that the state in MA puts requirements on homeschoolers
that some homeschoolers fulfill by lying about their plans. The Bryants did
not accept forced lying, preferring to be truthful and to expect decent
treatment by the state authorities. Instead, the state refused to accept
honesty and insisted that they lie in order to be free. >>
Your either/or dichotomies create falsehood.
It is possible to submit a plan which is not a lie.
<<Are Americans in Massachusetts free people, or not? Are you telling us that
regulations created by one-size-fits-all bureaucrats are fine, just because
they are "easy to fill out"? Whose side are you on?>>
This was addressed to Joyce, not me. But the continuing stridency of the
rhetoric you use ("Whose side are you on?" as though there are only two
sides) does nothing but flood this list with strident rhetoric and insult.
<<The Bryants are taking one small step, at huge personal expense and risk, in
order to help ALL homeschoolers everywhere, and you say they should cave in
to a bad regulation supported by a vindictive and stupid judge?>>
Here's "whose side" I am on:
My life is lived with priorities, NOT with choosing sides.
My priorities involve maintaining a safe and peaceful and stimulating
environment for my kids. They're happy and they're thoughtful and they're
considerate of other people.
My priorities philosohically involve truth and goodness and living in the
world. I don't mean knowing the One Big Truth because I don't think there is
one. But just because there's no one truth doesn't mean there's no such
thing as bullshit. The people I have around me care about their own
integrity and about being better people on an individual bases. Virtues and
ethics.
No one person can do everything in the world. People make choices. My
choices keep me busy already and being involved in political activism is not
on my list, but I have friends who are politically involved and I appreciate
that they are. I have friends who are childless and they appreciate that I
had children. We don't have to divide the world into us and them and take a
side.
<<Please restore my faith here. Explain your stance.>>
Your faith in Joyce won't help or hurt you or the list, will it?
Oh. It was just an insult, not a real request.
Joyce, don't explain anything. Ned will just insult your explanation.
I think if Ned is left to continue here he will do so without regard to the
listowner's wishes or anyone else's.
I think if Ned is removed from the list he will go elsewhere and characterize
this list falsely and tell his own version of what happened without regard to
what anyone else said or ever will say. I saw him ignore others' feelings
and experiences and statements about learning to read. I think its a "damned
if you do and damned if you don't" situation.
Sandra
Cindy BUEHLER
>From: SandraDodd@...Sandra,
>Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:08:31 EDT
>I think if Ned is left to continue here he will do so without regard to the
>listowner's wishes or anyone else's.
Please do not speak for me. I for one would like to see Ned continue his
posting. Although I don't always agree with his views I find them very
interesting. His posts have caused me to look much further into the role of
government in education. I have found that there is some basis for his
rants. Also, I think his posts are much more relevant to unschooling than
debates about heaven and hell and posts about Winger, although I read all of
those too:)
Cindy
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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Tia Leschke
>We don't have to divide the world into us and them and take aHear hear!
>side.
Tia
What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/10/02 11:27:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bueh2k@...
writes:
removed from the list because she thinks his posts are off topic. I believe
that all political views regarding schooling or unschooling are absolutely
appropriate. Opposites such as schooling and unschooling are often
intertwined whether we like it or not, and will often influence one another.
I find unschoolers to be a fascinating group because they are among the most
open-minded and interested people I've come across. This is why I find it
ironic that on a list that represents the ultimate in free thinking, some
feel compelled to impose rules on what thoughts might be presented.
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Sandra,I wholeheartedly agree. I am amazed that Sandra is suggesting that Ned be
>
> Please do not speak for me. I for one would like to see Ned continue his
> posting. Although I don't always agree with his views I find them very
> interesting. His posts have caused me to look much further into the role of
>
> government in education. I have found that there is some basis for his
> rants. Also, I think his posts are much more relevant to unschooling than
> debates about heaven and hell and posts about Winger, although I read all
> of
> those too:)
>
> Cindy
>
>
removed from the list because she thinks his posts are off topic. I believe
that all political views regarding schooling or unschooling are absolutely
appropriate. Opposites such as schooling and unschooling are often
intertwined whether we like it or not, and will often influence one another.
I find unschoolers to be a fascinating group because they are among the most
open-minded and interested people I've come across. This is why I find it
ironic that on a list that represents the ultimate in free thinking, some
feel compelled to impose rules on what thoughts might be presented.
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/11/02 6:29:58 AM, FoxgloveStudio@... writes:
<< I am amazed that Sandra is suggesting that Ned be
removed from the list because she thinks his posts are off topic. >>
If he were being calm and factual, I wouldn't object.
He's being neither.
He's insulting the other readers directly and indirectly with almost every
post, and ignoring requests to stop.
<<I find unschoolers to be a fascinating group because they are among the
most
open-minded and interested people I've come across. >>
But there's a purpose to this list, and it's not to demonstrate open
mindedness and to be interesting. We have the whole internet and all its
side-show mailing lists to choose from, and hundreds of people have come to
this list for unschooling discussions. So a foray here or there to the side
is fine, but a hijacking of the tone and direction is not.
Sandra
<< I am amazed that Sandra is suggesting that Ned be
removed from the list because she thinks his posts are off topic. >>
If he were being calm and factual, I wouldn't object.
He's being neither.
He's insulting the other readers directly and indirectly with almost every
post, and ignoring requests to stop.
<<I find unschoolers to be a fascinating group because they are among the
most
open-minded and interested people I've come across. >>
But there's a purpose to this list, and it's not to demonstrate open
mindedness and to be interesting. We have the whole internet and all its
side-show mailing lists to choose from, and hundreds of people have come to
this list for unschooling discussions. So a foray here or there to the side
is fine, but a hijacking of the tone and direction is not.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 8/11/02 8:29 AM, FoxgloveStudio@... at FoxgloveStudio@... wrote:
one point of view generate a *huge* amount of mail. (It generated a huge
amount of mail while people were trying to stop it from generating too much
mail!) The list would effectively stop being about unschooling and be about
the politics of education.
It's hard to see it that way because *right now* it seems to be a choice
between Ned and no Ned. And some are finding Ned's point of view
interesting. But one political point of view isn't an option for an
inclusive list. I don't think anyone really wants that. It's either all
political points of view or none.
The politics of education isn't the niche this list is here to fill. This
list is here to provide a place to discuss unschooling. It would be cheating
the people who came here looking for that to turn it into a political
discussion list.
If your grocery store advertised itself as a grocery store but started
shoving all the groceries in the far neglected corner and all the workers
were too busy to devote much time to the groceries because they were
spending time selling the cars the rest of the store had been filled with,
wouldn't you be a bit miffed? Wouldn't you probably take your shopping
somewhere else? Or complain?
That doesn't mean political discussion (or cars) aren't valuable or
appropriate. It just isn't workable for the list to do both unschooling
discussion and political discussion. It's just too much mail and too much
energy that would get redirected from unschooling to politics.
You (anyone) can start another list. You can even have just one political
point of view if you want! They're free. Yahoo makes it very easy. (But if
anyone needs help doing it just email me.) Put a tagline beneath your
signature on your posts to direct people to it. It's like opening up another
folder on a message board. That way people who want to discuss politics can
do so. Those who don't want to won't have to spend more time than they
perhaps already are deleting stuff they don't find useful.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
> I believe*All* political views is the problem. Political discussions with more than
> that all political views regarding schooling or unschooling are absolutely
> appropriate.
one point of view generate a *huge* amount of mail. (It generated a huge
amount of mail while people were trying to stop it from generating too much
mail!) The list would effectively stop being about unschooling and be about
the politics of education.
It's hard to see it that way because *right now* it seems to be a choice
between Ned and no Ned. And some are finding Ned's point of view
interesting. But one political point of view isn't an option for an
inclusive list. I don't think anyone really wants that. It's either all
political points of view or none.
The politics of education isn't the niche this list is here to fill. This
list is here to provide a place to discuss unschooling. It would be cheating
the people who came here looking for that to turn it into a political
discussion list.
If your grocery store advertised itself as a grocery store but started
shoving all the groceries in the far neglected corner and all the workers
were too busy to devote much time to the groceries because they were
spending time selling the cars the rest of the store had been filled with,
wouldn't you be a bit miffed? Wouldn't you probably take your shopping
somewhere else? Or complain?
That doesn't mean political discussion (or cars) aren't valuable or
appropriate. It just isn't workable for the list to do both unschooling
discussion and political discussion. It's just too much mail and too much
energy that would get redirected from unschooling to politics.
You (anyone) can start another list. You can even have just one political
point of view if you want! They're free. Yahoo makes it very easy. (But if
anyone needs help doing it just email me.) Put a tagline beneath your
signature on your posts to direct people to it. It's like opening up another
folder on a message board. That way people who want to discuss politics can
do so. Those who don't want to won't have to spend more time than they
perhaps already are deleting stuff they don't find useful.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
[email protected]
i agree with cindy and sherry
keep ned here
LLL
keep ned here
LLL
----- Original Message -----
From: FoxgloveStudio@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Free People, or not Free?
In a message dated 8/10/02 11:27:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bueh2k@...
writes:
> Sandra,
>
> Please do not speak for me. I for one would like to see Ned continue his
> posting. Although I don't always agree with his views I find them very
> interesting. His posts have caused me to look much further into the role of
>
> government in education. I have found that there is some basis for his
> rants. Also, I think his posts are much more relevant to unschooling than
> debates about heaven and hell and posts about Winger, although I read all
> of
> those too:)
>
> Cindy
>
>
I wholeheartedly agree. I am amazed that Sandra is suggesting that Ned be
removed from the list because she thinks his posts are off topic. I believe
that all political views regarding schooling or unschooling are absolutely
appropriate. Opposites such as schooling and unschooling are often
intertwined whether we like it or not, and will often influence one another.
I find unschoolers to be a fascinating group because they are among the most
open-minded and interested people I've come across. This is why I find it
ironic that on a list that represents the ultimate in free thinking, some
feel compelled to impose rules on what thoughts might be presented.
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@... ) or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Charles L Whittom Jr
Thank you Joyce for your point of view and suggestions. I was getting pretty tired of the political strive on this list and was about to unsub until I read your post. I've been having well over 500 e-mails a day coming in and it was just getting too much to sort through. Hopefully this list will get back on track.
Thanks again,
Charles
Thanks again,
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 11:35 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Purpose of the Unschooling-dotcom list
on 8/11/02 8:29 AM, FoxgloveStudio@... at FoxgloveStudio@... wrote:
> I believe
> that all political views regarding schooling or unschooling are absolutely
> appropriate.
*All* political views is the problem. Political discussions with more than
one point of view generate a *huge* amount of mail. (It generated a huge
amount of mail while people were trying to stop it from generating too much
mail!) The list would effectively stop being about unschooling and be about
the politics of education.
It's hard to see it that way because *right now* it seems to be a choice
between Ned and no Ned. And some are finding Ned's point of view
interesting. But one political point of view isn't an option for an
inclusive list. I don't think anyone really wants that. It's either all
political points of view or none.
The politics of education isn't the niche this list is here to fill. This
list is here to provide a place to discuss unschooling. It would be cheating
the people who came here looking for that to turn it into a political
discussion list.
If your grocery store advertised itself as a grocery store but started
shoving all the groceries in the far neglected corner and all the workers
were too busy to devote much time to the groceries because they were
spending time selling the cars the rest of the store had been filled with,
wouldn't you be a bit miffed? Wouldn't you probably take your shopping
somewhere else? Or complain?
That doesn't mean political discussion (or cars) aren't valuable or
appropriate. It just isn't workable for the list to do both unschooling
discussion and political discussion. It's just too much mail and too much
energy that would get redirected from unschooling to politics.
You (anyone) can start another list. You can even have just one political
point of view if you want! They're free. Yahoo makes it very easy. (But if
anyone needs help doing it just email me.) Put a tagline beneath your
signature on your posts to direct people to it. It's like opening up another
folder on a message board. That way people who want to discuss politics can
do so. Those who don't want to won't have to spend more time than they
perhaps already are deleting stuff they don't find useful.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@... ) or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>i agree with cindy and sherryI too want to keep Ned here. I enjoy his posts about the subject of this
>keep ned here
list, unschooling.
I don't think anyone has asked Ned to actually leave the list. There are
political lists that are just perfect for his *political* posts. He's been
asked to take *them* there. He's welcome to tell people where he's taken
them so they can follow him. I hope he'll do that. Then those who are
interested can have the benefit of his political comments, and the rest of
us can get on with discussing unschooling.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
kayb85
I've learned something with this whole thread. I sometimes skim
posts, but what I've read from Ned's posts, I agreed with.
What I learned is that not all unschoolers agree with the concept at
www.sepschool.org!!! I must say that I was/still am thoroughly
shocked to learn that not all unschoolers agree with it. I never
thought that it would be an issue that would be debatable on an
unschooling list. I even find it surprising that so many school-at-
homers don't support it, but I thought that was just because they
still have the school mentality of education being something that we
need to do to our children, therefore the gov't needs to make sure
that it's "done" to all children.
I'm not saying this to chide/rebuke/debate. I'm just sharing that I
had the perception that the majority of unschoolers would agree with
what Ned was saying and was surprised to find that wasn't the case.
Sheila
posts, but what I've read from Ned's posts, I agreed with.
What I learned is that not all unschoolers agree with the concept at
www.sepschool.org!!! I must say that I was/still am thoroughly
shocked to learn that not all unschoolers agree with it. I never
thought that it would be an issue that would be debatable on an
unschooling list. I even find it surprising that so many school-at-
homers don't support it, but I thought that was just because they
still have the school mentality of education being something that we
need to do to our children, therefore the gov't needs to make sure
that it's "done" to all children.
I'm not saying this to chide/rebuke/debate. I'm just sharing that I
had the perception that the majority of unschoolers would agree with
what Ned was saying and was surprised to find that wasn't the case.
Sheila
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
>
> >i agree with cindy and sherry
> >keep ned here
>
> I too want to keep Ned here. I enjoy his posts about the subject
of this
> list, unschooling.
>
> I don't think anyone has asked Ned to actually leave the list.
There are
> political lists that are just perfect for his *political* posts.
He's been
> asked to take *them* there. He's welcome to tell people where he's
taken
> them so they can follow him. I hope he'll do that. Then those who
are
> interested can have the benefit of his political comments, and the
rest of
> us can get on with discussing unschooling.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@i...
> On Vancouver Island
zenmomma *
>i agree with cindy and sherryOh c'mon guys. No one is asking Ned to leave. In fact, many people have
>keep ned here
>
>LLL
pointed to his wonderful unschooling posts. What we have asked is that this
list not become a Libertarian forum.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
[email protected]
i agree with cindy and sherry
keep ned here
Why are you (general, not specific) choosing up sides?The protests are based
on the list purpose not on whether or not Ned is allowed to be here.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
keep ned here
Why are you (general, not specific) choosing up sides?The protests are based
on the list purpose not on whether or not Ned is allowed to be here.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
Tia Leschke
>I totally agree with the idea that the government should get out of
>
>What I learned is that not all unschoolers agree with the concept at
>www.sepschool.org!!! I must say that I was/still am thoroughly
>shocked to learn that not all unschoolers agree with it. I never
>thought that it would be an issue that would be debatable on an
>unschooling list. I even find it surprising that so many school-at-
>homers don't support it, but I thought that was just because they
>still have the school mentality of education being something that we
>need to do to our children, therefore the gov't needs to make sure
>that it's "done" to all children.
homeschoolers' hair and just let us get on with our responsibility to help
our kids get educated. What I don't agree with is that the state should
not be providing some sort of education, through taxes, to all those kids
who aren't ever going to be homeschooled for whatever reason. That's part
of the libertarian philosophy, and I don't agree with a lot of libertarian
philosophy. Does that help clear up at least *my* views?
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Fetteroll
on 8/11/02 12:35 PM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@... wrote:
it that political discussion will naturally pop up here on occasion.
Politics is part of life and life is unschooling and unschooling is life :-)
It makes more sense put that way. It's the highjacking (I thought that was a
succinct way of phrasing it) that's objectionable because it prevents the
list from being what it says that it is: Unschooling discussion.
Basically anything about unschooling -- which covers most of life -- in a
way that doesn't interfer with the purpose of the list is acceptable.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
> The politics of education isn't the niche this list is here to fill. ThisQuoting myself here <g> after discussing it with Helen, it's better to put
> list is here to provide a place to discuss unschooling. It would be cheating
> the people who came here looking for that to turn it into a political
> discussion list.
it that political discussion will naturally pop up here on occasion.
Politics is part of life and life is unschooling and unschooling is life :-)
It makes more sense put that way. It's the highjacking (I thought that was a
succinct way of phrasing it) that's objectionable because it prevents the
list from being what it says that it is: Unschooling discussion.
Basically anything about unschooling -- which covers most of life -- in a
way that doesn't interfer with the purpose of the list is acceptable.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
Nora and Devereaux Cannon
Am I correct in assuming that the same logic will apply to the
posts on religion as well?
posts on religion as well?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Purpose of the
Unschooling-dotcom list
| on 8/11/02 12:35 PM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@...
wrote:
|
| > The politics of education isn't the niche this list is here
to fill. This
| > list is here to provide a place to discuss unschooling. It
would be cheating
| > the people who came here looking for that to turn it into a
political
| > discussion list.
|
| Quoting myself here <g> after discussing it with Helen, it's
better to put
| it that political discussion will naturally pop up here on
occasion.
| Politics is part of life and life is unschooling and
unschooling is life :-)
|
| It makes more sense put that way. It's the highjacking (I
thought that was a
| succinct way of phrasing it) that's objectionable because it
prevents the
| list from being what it says that it is: Unschooling
discussion.
|
| Basically anything about unschooling -- which covers most of
life -- in a
| way that doesn't interfer with the purpose of the list is
acceptable.
|
| Joyce
| Unschooling-dotcom moderator
|
|
| ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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|
| If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list,
please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll
(fetteroll@... ) or the list owner, Helen Hegener
(HEM-Editor@...).
|
| To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
| [email protected]
|
| Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|
Fetteroll
on 8/11/02 7:19 PM, Nora and Devereaux Cannon at dcannon@... wrote:
Anything is fine as long as someone doesn't turn the list into their own
private soap box and prevent the list from discussing unschooling.
Even the *occasional* Libertarian (or Greenie or Republican or) post would
spark some interesting discussion. :-)
Joyce
> Am I correct in assuming that the same logic will apply to theDid my revised post clear up that question?
> posts on religion as well?
Anything is fine as long as someone doesn't turn the list into their own
private soap box and prevent the list from discussing unschooling.
Even the *occasional* Libertarian (or Greenie or Republican or) post would
spark some interesting discussion. :-)
Joyce