Re: 2217 - the voucher reasoning
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/9/02 10:48 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
Suzanna is right, and she makes the case, very eloquently and simply, for
vouchers...give parents choices in how their own money is used for their own
kids. Can there be a reasonable argument against that?
Also, Suzanna's report from her experiences with schools should alert all of
us to the theft and dishonesty that is all part of the culture of those
schools. And it's not just "registration fees" that are stolen.
Ned Vare
[email protected] wrote:
>Ned rsponds:
> Message: 20
> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:28:14 -0000
> From: "dabejorysmom" <suzanna.n@...>
> Subject: Re: NEA vs homeschooling
>> I think that if they are going to force people to pay
>> taxes to have kids "educated" then I think the moneys gathered from
>> those taxes should be given to the parents of each school-age child
>> to use in "educating" their child the way they see fit. Money is
>> very mismanaged by most schools... When schools get more money, it
>> is usually wasted. That has been my experience.
>>
>> -Suzanna
Suzanna is right, and she makes the case, very eloquently and simply, for
vouchers...give parents choices in how their own money is used for their own
kids. Can there be a reasonable argument against that?
Also, Suzanna's report from her experiences with schools should alert all of
us to the theft and dishonesty that is all part of the culture of those
schools. And it's not just "registration fees" that are stolen.
Ned Vare
[email protected]
doesn't the school get 4000 bucks per enrolled student from the federal gov.?
Gosh it might be 6000! DeWes
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Gosh it might be 6000! DeWes
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanna514
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
<nedvare@n...> wrote:
regulating just how those vouchers are spent. You don't just get
money without having to account for it. Ideally we should get the
money for our children that is being spent on other citizens
children, but I don't see how that could come without a cost of
another kind. I don't want to have to account to anyone and when you
accept money from the government, there is accountability. Why would
we want to bring that on ourselves?
I chose to take my children out of the system and i don't want
anything else to do with it. Asking for our fair share comes with a
whole lot more than we are bargaining for. there is no getting
around that.
Joanna
<nedvare@n...> wrote:
> on 8/9/02 10:48 AM, Unschooling-dotcom@y... atfrom
> Unschooling-dotcom@y... wrote:
>
> >
> > Message: 20
> > Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:28:14 -0000
> > From: "dabejorysmom" <suzanna.n@j...>
> > Subject: Re: NEA vs homeschooling
>
> >> I think that if they are going to force people to pay
> >> taxes to have kids "educated" then I think the moneys gathered
> >> those taxes should be given to the parents of each school-agechild
> >> to use in "educating" their child the way they see fit. Money isit
> >> very mismanaged by most schools... When schools get more money,
> >> is usually wasted. That has been my experience.simply, for
> >>
> >> -Suzanna
>
> Ned rsponds:
> Suzanna is right, and she makes the case, very eloquently and
> vouchers...give parents choices in how their own money is used fortheir own
> kids. Can there be a reasonable argument against that?The picture I formed in my head when I read this was, the government
regulating just how those vouchers are spent. You don't just get
money without having to account for it. Ideally we should get the
money for our children that is being spent on other citizens
children, but I don't see how that could come without a cost of
another kind. I don't want to have to account to anyone and when you
accept money from the government, there is accountability. Why would
we want to bring that on ourselves?
I chose to take my children out of the system and i don't want
anything else to do with it. Asking for our fair share comes with a
whole lot more than we are bargaining for. there is no getting
around that.
Joanna
[email protected]
well, vouchers would virtually destroy the public school system...
L
L
----- Original Message -----
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 7:00 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2217 - the voucher reasoning
on 8/9/02 10:48 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:28:14 -0000
> From: "dabejorysmom" <suzanna.n@...>
> Subject: Re: NEA vs homeschooling
>> I think that if they are going to force people to pay
>> taxes to have kids "educated" then I think the moneys gathered from
>> those taxes should be given to the parents of each school-age child
>> to use in "educating" their child the way they see fit. Money is
>> very mismanaged by most schools... When schools get more money, it
>> is usually wasted. That has been my experience.
>>
>> -Suzanna
Ned rsponds:
Suzanna is right, and she makes the case, very eloquently and simply, for
vouchers...give parents choices in how their own money is used for their own
kids. Can there be a reasonable argument against that?
Also, Suzanna's report from her experiences with schools should alert all of
us to the theft and dishonesty that is all part of the culture of those
schools. And it's not just "registration fees" that are stolen.
Ned Vare
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I think vouchers would be a fine idea, especially if they were used the way
> Suzanna is right, and she makes the case, very eloquently and simply, for
> vouchers...give parents choices in how their own money is used for
> their own
> kids. Can there be a reasonable argument against that?
I read about in one book where they could be used for anything at all
educational, from a year at a school to computers to books, etc.
But the difficulty here is that money is being taken for education from way
more than just parents of school aged children. All those retired people
and people with no children are going to want a say in how the money is spent.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
N.McV.
That could be dealt with, using a bit of political finesse. Of course just about everyone would agree that there have to be limits on how educational money could be spent. (If there's someone here who wants to try to justify parents spending their vouchers at Bob's House-'O-Whiskey and the the !LIVE!GIRLS! Adult Book and Video store, don't let me stop you.)
There are ways to present this to the public so that they think they came up with the idea of restricting use of vouchers to "regular" bookstores, educational supply stores, curriculum vendors, etc.
There is one hitch, and that's that bugaboo about "religious" materials. Frankly, I think that lots of stuff that doesn't look "religious" can be shown to support one or another spiritual worldview (consider those Pagans who claim science and math as sacred arts), but it wouldn't bother me too much if the skittish public struck out such funding -- there's plenty of other stuff that parents could use that money for.
Parity would require all kids in a school district to be granted the same amount of money, depending maybe on age. Voters in the district would decide how much each kid got. Kids with special needs would be identified by the district (or to the district), and their needs would be met via a special fund. Schools would have no gain in over-identifying special needs kids, since they have no guarantee that their schools would get the money.
(Actually, to make this really work, all public school become charter schools, and no kids is ever automatically sent to a particular school. All public schools in a given area -- say, a county -- are open-enrollment. And all compete with private schools.)
I've been saying this on the Internet for more than 10 years now, but to this day I haven't been made Queen of the World, so it hasn't happened. (But I may get the crown any day now.)
Nancy McVicker
homeschooler-at-large
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There are ways to present this to the public so that they think they came up with the idea of restricting use of vouchers to "regular" bookstores, educational supply stores, curriculum vendors, etc.
There is one hitch, and that's that bugaboo about "religious" materials. Frankly, I think that lots of stuff that doesn't look "religious" can be shown to support one or another spiritual worldview (consider those Pagans who claim science and math as sacred arts), but it wouldn't bother me too much if the skittish public struck out such funding -- there's plenty of other stuff that parents could use that money for.
Parity would require all kids in a school district to be granted the same amount of money, depending maybe on age. Voters in the district would decide how much each kid got. Kids with special needs would be identified by the district (or to the district), and their needs would be met via a special fund. Schools would have no gain in over-identifying special needs kids, since they have no guarantee that their schools would get the money.
(Actually, to make this really work, all public school become charter schools, and no kids is ever automatically sent to a particular school. All public schools in a given area -- say, a county -- are open-enrollment. And all compete with private schools.)
I've been saying this on the Internet for more than 10 years now, but to this day I haven't been made Queen of the World, so it hasn't happened. (But I may get the crown any day now.)
Nancy McVicker
homeschooler-at-large
> Tia Leschke wrote: >I think vouchers would be a fine idea, especially if >they were used the way---------------------------------
>I read about in one book where they could be used for >anything at all
>educational, from a year at a school to computers to >books, etc.
>But the difficulty here is that money is being taken >for education from way
>more than just parents of school aged children. All >those retired people
>and people with no children are going to want a say >in how the money is spent.
>Tia
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HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/02 2:05:03 PM, nmcvick@... writes:
<< There are ways to present this to the public so that they think they came
up with the idea of restricting use of vouchers to "regular" bookstores,
educational supply stores, curriculum vendors, etc. >>
When I was teaching I had $200 to spend. Not much. I thought hard. Could
I buy Scrabble games? SURE! They handed me the approved-educational-supply
catalog from the company that takes vouchers. $15 for the game.
Can I go buy it at T,G & Y (translate to "Walmart," those of you too young)?
Oh no, they don't take vouchers.
Can I buy something with a voucher and resell it and take the cash to a
thrift store and buy scrabble games?
What about inventory time?
For the price of a scrabble game I got ten or so books from Scholastic, and
made a Password game with 3x5 cards.
The whole "you have to use a voucher" scam is making the shareholders in some
educational supply companies richer than they need to be.
Sandra
<< There are ways to present this to the public so that they think they came
up with the idea of restricting use of vouchers to "regular" bookstores,
educational supply stores, curriculum vendors, etc. >>
When I was teaching I had $200 to spend. Not much. I thought hard. Could
I buy Scrabble games? SURE! They handed me the approved-educational-supply
catalog from the company that takes vouchers. $15 for the game.
Can I go buy it at T,G & Y (translate to "Walmart," those of you too young)?
Oh no, they don't take vouchers.
Can I buy something with a voucher and resell it and take the cash to a
thrift store and buy scrabble games?
What about inventory time?
For the price of a scrabble game I got ten or so books from Scholastic, and
made a Password game with 3x5 cards.
The whole "you have to use a voucher" scam is making the shareholders in some
educational supply companies richer than they need to be.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>Well, it wouldn't have to vouchers as such. The program my son is
>The whole "you have to use a voucher" scam is making the shareholders in some
>educational supply companies richer than they need to be.
registered with gives the parents a small resource allowance each year. We
have to spend the money and then send in receipts for reimbursement. They
are quite flexible about what we can spend money on. We've gotten
printers, a scanner, and a CD burner. We've had sports and scouts
registrations paid for, as well as books and lessons. The only things not
allowed are overt religious materials and supplies for classes. They'll
pay for skating lessons, for instance, but not skates.
Of course this would be difficult for low-income parents. And it would
require a fair amount of bureaucracy.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
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N.McV.
> SandraDodd@... wrote:Do you mean the kind of voucher that isn't like a check but like a "bill-my-school" kind of deal? That's not what I mean here. I see vouchers as being a sort of Traveler's Cheque that can be spent almost anywhere, including Wal-Mart and any second-hand store that doesn't have a "cash only" policy.
>When I was teaching I had $200 to spend. Not much. I >thought hard. Could
>I buy Scrabble games? SURE! They handed me the approved->educational-supply
>catalog from the company that takes vouchers. $15 for the >game.
I agree that the "educational supply" stores can be over-priced. I wonder how long they'd keep their prices up (or stay in business) if the system were changed?
Competition in commerce is a wonderful thing.
Nancy McVicker
capitalist-at-large
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[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/02 1:24:16 PM, nmcvick@... writes:
<< Do you mean the kind of voucher that isn't like a check but like a
"bill-my-school" kind of deal? That's not what I mean here. >>
I know, but if it's government money to be spent to government specs, some
states could very easily say "it has to be educational" and that could limit
it to certain vendors.
The example someone gave was you shouldn't be able to spent it at the whiskey
store (I don't have the quote). To some financial analysts, Toys 'R Us might
look as bad as a liquor store, because toys aren't educational.
Sandra
<< Do you mean the kind of voucher that isn't like a check but like a
"bill-my-school" kind of deal? That's not what I mean here. >>
I know, but if it's government money to be spent to government specs, some
states could very easily say "it has to be educational" and that could limit
it to certain vendors.
The example someone gave was you shouldn't be able to spent it at the whiskey
store (I don't have the quote). To some financial analysts, Toys 'R Us might
look as bad as a liquor store, because toys aren't educational.
Sandra
N.McV.
Of course toys are educational. It says so right on the box. Not to be flip, but I'd bet the toy (or at least game) manufacturers would stand behind us on that one, and they have money and lawyers. Their first argument might be, "...and that's why our games are carried by X, Y, and Z educational supply companies."
Of course it'd be a state-by-state battle, as is every educational issue. And certainly some of us would initially get a better deal than others. Just like homeschooling.
Nancy McVicker
game-buyer-at-large
it to certain vendors.
The example someone gave was you shouldn't be able to spent it at the whiskey
store (I don't have the quote). To some financial analysts, Toys 'R Us might
look as bad as a liquor store, because toys aren't educational.
---------------------------------
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HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Of course it'd be a state-by-state battle, as is every educational issue. And certainly some of us would initially get a better deal than others. Just like homeschooling.
Nancy McVicker
game-buyer-at-large
>SandraDodd@... wrote:I know, but if it's government money to be spent to government specs, somestates could very easily say "it has to be educational" and that could limit
it to certain vendors.
The example someone gave was you shouldn't be able to spent it at the whiskey
store (I don't have the quote). To some financial analysts, Toys 'R Us might
look as bad as a liquor store, because toys aren't educational.
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]