Re: 2213 - Government school success
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
Tia wrote, about the public schools:
Before 1840, there was no government school system. Homeschooling, by
various names, was the norm. Almost all parents accepted the responsibility
for their children's basic education. Local schools were open only a few
months per year. Hey, there was real life to live back then -- food to grow
and put up for the winter, hunting to do, livestock to care for, crops to
plant, tools and clothes to make, etc. -- the unschool life ) Children,
generally, got their learnin' at home and in their communities. (that's
still true...one recent book, "School's Out," by the past head of IBM) said
that of all adults know, less than one percent was learned in school)
Therefore, during the 150 years since the beginning of the national system
of schools, this country has gone from Zero percent of the children going to
such schools to about 92 percent of our children attending them today. I'd
say that is overwhelming success -- almost total elimination of the practice
of homeschooling, in fact. The government has done an incredible job of
removing the responsibilities of raising children from families and
communities, and has given the job to its own employees.
In every state, the public schools are on the lookout for ways to increase
their control over those who seek or use alternatives. What I've been saying
is that we need to be more than vigilant. We need to look for ways to regain
all the educational freedoms that the government and its agencies have taken
away from us.
Ned Vare
> Sure they'd like to eliminate homeschooling. From what I've seen, theyNed responds: (thank you, Tia, for agreeing, in part at least)...
> haven't had much of an effect. Not that we don't need to be vigilant, but
> I just don't see that they've been very successful.
Before 1840, there was no government school system. Homeschooling, by
various names, was the norm. Almost all parents accepted the responsibility
for their children's basic education. Local schools were open only a few
months per year. Hey, there was real life to live back then -- food to grow
and put up for the winter, hunting to do, livestock to care for, crops to
plant, tools and clothes to make, etc. -- the unschool life ) Children,
generally, got their learnin' at home and in their communities. (that's
still true...one recent book, "School's Out," by the past head of IBM) said
that of all adults know, less than one percent was learned in school)
Therefore, during the 150 years since the beginning of the national system
of schools, this country has gone from Zero percent of the children going to
such schools to about 92 percent of our children attending them today. I'd
say that is overwhelming success -- almost total elimination of the practice
of homeschooling, in fact. The government has done an incredible job of
removing the responsibilities of raising children from families and
communities, and has given the job to its own employees.
In every state, the public schools are on the lookout for ways to increase
their control over those who seek or use alternatives. What I've been saying
is that we need to be more than vigilant. We need to look for ways to regain
all the educational freedoms that the government and its agencies have taken
away from us.
Ned Vare
Tia Leschke
>I'd say parents have done an incredible job of delegating their
>
>Therefore, during the 150 years since the beginning of the national system
>of schools, this country has gone from Zero percent of the children going to
>such schools to about 92 percent of our children attending them today. I'd
>say that is overwhelming success -- almost total elimination of the practice
>of homeschooling, in fact. The government has done an incredible job of
>removing the responsibilities of raising children from families and
>communities, and has given the job to its own employees.
responsibilities for raising their own children to others, schools, camps,
daycare. I just don't buy the evil plot stuff. Parents gave the
responsibility away, and parents are starting to take it back.
>In every state, the public schools are on the lookout for ways to increaseSure we need to be vigilant, but I don't think that means we need to be
>their control over those who seek or use alternatives. What I've been saying
>is that we need to be more than vigilant. We need to look for ways to regain
>all the educational freedoms that the government and its agencies have taken
>away from us.
paranoid. I don't believe I've lost any educational freedom, at least not
where I live. Here in BC, the schools only get money for the kids that are
enrolled, and those are the only ones they're responsible for. Getting
more kids into the public school just means more money to spend, etc. I
don't see where getting any more kids is going to do them any good. At any
rate, aside from the occasional spouting off by somebody in the teacher's
union, nobody here appears to be trying to drag homeschoolers into the
schools.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Fetteroll
on 8/9/02 12:05 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
you theories on the causes of the threats, not the threats themselves. No
one disagrees that we need to be vigilant. We recognize there are threats to
our homeschooling freedoms. We know that we can be lied to about
homeschooling legalities by school employees. That's why it's important to
be informed. (Some states more so than others.)
But no one has to subscribe to an evil government out to get us to recognize
that many *people* feel more comfortable when things are controlled and like
to make laws to control things.
Pointing people to ways they can stay informed about what's going on in
their state is very helpful. (National Home Education Network
http://www.nhen.org is a great place to start. There are summaries of state
laws, links to more information and state and local support groups.) Telling
people they need to see the evil plot by the NEA in order to stay vigilant
will just lead to arguments and not be helpful at all.
Joyce
> What I've been sayingAnd I think what you aren't *hearing* is that people are disagreeing with
> is that we need to be more than vigilant. We need to look for ways to regain
> all the educational freedoms that the government and its agencies have taken
> away from us.
you theories on the causes of the threats, not the threats themselves. No
one disagrees that we need to be vigilant. We recognize there are threats to
our homeschooling freedoms. We know that we can be lied to about
homeschooling legalities by school employees. That's why it's important to
be informed. (Some states more so than others.)
But no one has to subscribe to an evil government out to get us to recognize
that many *people* feel more comfortable when things are controlled and like
to make laws to control things.
Pointing people to ways they can stay informed about what's going on in
their state is very helpful. (National Home Education Network
http://www.nhen.org is a great place to start. There are summaries of state
laws, links to more information and state and local support groups.) Telling
people they need to see the evil plot by the NEA in order to stay vigilant
will just lead to arguments and not be helpful at all.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/9/02 9:21:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
The definition in my Webster's of the word "argue" is "to give reasons [for
or against)." Isn't that why many on this list are here? How can someone be
unhelpful when he/she expresses or responds to an idea and gives reasons (for
or against). I think some here are attempting to sensor valid opinions.
Censorship is the tool of the fearful. Are some here perhaps afraid of the
wrath of powerful organizations such as the NEA. The concept of Unschooling
IS the natural opposite of school. Perhaps some feel that if we openly
criticize schools and it's supporters such as the government, NEA, and PTO,
that the unschoolers way of life might be regulated out of existence. I
thought this was "The Land of The Free and The Brave".
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> > What I've been sayingDear Joyce,
> > is that we need to be more than vigilant. We need to look for ways to
> regain
> > all the educational freedoms that the government and its agencies have
> taken
> > away from us.
>
> And I think what you aren't *hearing* is that people are disagreeing with
> you theories on the causes of the threats, not the threats themselves. No
> one disagrees that we need to be vigilant. We recognize there are threats
> to
> our homeschooling freedoms. We know that we can be lied to about
> homeschooling legalities by school employees. That's why it's important to
> be informed. (Some states more so than others.)
>
> But no one has to subscribe to an evil government out to get us to
> recognize
> that many *people* feel more comfortable when things are controlled and
> like
> to make laws to control things.
>
> Pointing people to ways they can stay informed about what's going on in
> their state is very helpful. (National Home Education Network
> http://www.nhen.org is a great place to start. There are summaries of state
> laws, links to more information and state and local support groups.)
> Telling
> people they need to see the evil plot by the NEA in order to stay vigilant
> will just lead to arguments and not be helpful at all.
>
> Joyce
>
The definition in my Webster's of the word "argue" is "to give reasons [for
or against)." Isn't that why many on this list are here? How can someone be
unhelpful when he/she expresses or responds to an idea and gives reasons (for
or against). I think some here are attempting to sensor valid opinions.
Censorship is the tool of the fearful. Are some here perhaps afraid of the
wrath of powerful organizations such as the NEA. The concept of Unschooling
IS the natural opposite of school. Perhaps some feel that if we openly
criticize schools and it's supporters such as the government, NEA, and PTO,
that the unschoolers way of life might be regulated out of existence. I
thought this was "The Land of The Free and The Brave".
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/9/02 8:13:40 AM, FoxgloveStudio@... writes:
<< Are some here perhaps afraid of the
wrath of powerful organizations such as the NEA.>>
Not even a little.
I've never heard anyone afraid of the NEA.
<<The concept of Unschooling IS the natural opposite of school. >>
So let's talk about the light, not the dark.
Vegetarian lists don't go on and on about meat and butchers and processing
plants and that. New vegetarians go through their revulsion phase and their
justification phase, and then they want current information and encouragement
and recipes and ideas.
<<Perhaps some feel that if we openly
criticize schools and it's supporters such as the government, NEA, and PTO,
that the unschoolers way of life might be regulated out of existence. >>
I've never heard that idea ever until now.
We're DOING something, not just not-doing something else.
There is a lot of work involved with unschooling once the school is
abandoned. If we carry school around with us we won't have the lightness and
joy we need to unschool.
Sandra
<< Are some here perhaps afraid of the
wrath of powerful organizations such as the NEA.>>
Not even a little.
I've never heard anyone afraid of the NEA.
<<The concept of Unschooling IS the natural opposite of school. >>
So let's talk about the light, not the dark.
Vegetarian lists don't go on and on about meat and butchers and processing
plants and that. New vegetarians go through their revulsion phase and their
justification phase, and then they want current information and encouragement
and recipes and ideas.
<<Perhaps some feel that if we openly
criticize schools and it's supporters such as the government, NEA, and PTO,
that the unschoolers way of life might be regulated out of existence. >>
I've never heard that idea ever until now.
We're DOING something, not just not-doing something else.
There is a lot of work involved with unschooling once the school is
abandoned. If we carry school around with us we won't have the lightness and
joy we need to unschool.
Sandra
dabejorysmom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
towards unschooling(I am not there completely yet), I have found it
takes more effort on my part. Before, I could just give my kids text
books and tell them to do the assignments and come to me if they
needed help. Now, I have to pay attention to what they are doing and
look things up with them rather than just tell them to look things up
when they have questions. It is more work to enrich a child's
environment than it is to simply give him some books, "teach" him for
a little while, and then have the child do the work in the books by
himself. Now instead of waiting for my child to ask me questions, I
ask my child questions. Definately more work. I have to think more.
-Suzanna
P.S. One thing that has been easier with my child since I
quit "schooling" him so much is spelling. My youngest used to be a
terrible speller. I used to give him spelling assignments and drills,
etc. He hated it, and didn't improve much. Now he likes to frequent
Harry Potter message boards. Other people on the boards criticized
his bad spelling, so he has become a very good speller. He usually
will find out on his own how something is spelled, but sometimes he
asks me or his father. We ask him how he thinks it is spelled. He
usually has it right. When he really doesn't know, we will tell him,
and he usually doesn't need to ask again.
>I have found that to be true. Since I have been leaning more and more
> There is a lot of work involved with unschooling once the school is
> abandoned. > Sandra
towards unschooling(I am not there completely yet), I have found it
takes more effort on my part. Before, I could just give my kids text
books and tell them to do the assignments and come to me if they
needed help. Now, I have to pay attention to what they are doing and
look things up with them rather than just tell them to look things up
when they have questions. It is more work to enrich a child's
environment than it is to simply give him some books, "teach" him for
a little while, and then have the child do the work in the books by
himself. Now instead of waiting for my child to ask me questions, I
ask my child questions. Definately more work. I have to think more.
-Suzanna
P.S. One thing that has been easier with my child since I
quit "schooling" him so much is spelling. My youngest used to be a
terrible speller. I used to give him spelling assignments and drills,
etc. He hated it, and didn't improve much. Now he likes to frequent
Harry Potter message boards. Other people on the boards criticized
his bad spelling, so he has become a very good speller. He usually
will find out on his own how something is spelled, but sometimes he
asks me or his father. We ask him how he thinks it is spelled. He
usually has it right. When he really doesn't know, we will tell him,
and he usually doesn't need to ask again.
[email protected]
Perhaps some feel that if we openly
criticize schools and it's supporters such as the government, NEA, and PTO,
that the unschoolers way of life might be regulated out of existence. I
thought this was "The Land of The Free and The Brave".
LOL!
I have no problem talking about all the above in a forum specifically for
that discussion.
Here I'd like to talk about unschooling.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
criticize schools and it's supporters such as the government, NEA, and PTO,
that the unschoolers way of life might be regulated out of existence. I
thought this was "The Land of The Free and The Brave".
LOL!
I have no problem talking about all the above in a forum specifically for
that discussion.
Here I'd like to talk about unschooling.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
KT
>I believe unschooling at it's most pure form has always existed in some
>
> The concept of Unschooling
>IS the natural opposite of school. Perhaps some feel that if we openly
>criticize schools and it's supporters such as the government, NEA, and PTO,
>that the unschoolers way of life might be regulated out of existence. I
>thought this was "The Land of The Free and The Brave".
>
way or another, even before the '80s when state laws were being written
to make something "legal" which was previously never addressed. I
believe the people who did it then would do it no matter what, and that
there will always be people doing it, no matter what laws are written.
I don't believe most unschoolers are afraid that it will be regulated
out of existence, because it never has been.
Tuck
Tia Leschke
>So you're calling Helen fearful? Somehow I don't think that's likely. But
>The definition in my Webster's of the word "argue" is "to give reasons [for
>or against)." Isn't that why many on this list are here? How can someone be
>unhelpful when he/she expresses or responds to an idea and gives reasons (for
>or against). I think some here are attempting to sensor valid opinions.
>Censorship is the tool of the fearful.
she *has* asked that the school and government-bashing stop.
>Are some here perhaps afraid of theGiven that I haven't lived in the U.S. for 32 years, not very likely.
>wrath of powerful organizations such as the NEA.
>The concept of UnschoolingNo, I don't think that at all. I just don't believe in the evil government
>IS the natural opposite of school. Perhaps some feel that if we openly
>criticize schools and it's supporters such as the government, NEA, and PTO,
>that the unschoolers way of life might be regulated out of existence. I
>thought this was "The Land of The Free and The Brave".
conspiracy theory, and I don't believe that this particular list is the
proper forum for Ned's valid opinions about evil government conspiracies.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/9/02 9:13:58 AM Central Daylight Time,
FoxgloveStudio@... writes:
this particular forum isn't the place for political grandstanding, that's
all.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
FoxgloveStudio@... writes:
> Dear Joyce,Why the hostility? No one is censoring here. The point has been made that
>
> The definition in my Webster's of the word "argue" is "to give reasons [for
> or against)." Isn't that why many on this list are here? How can someone be
> unhelpful when he/she expresses or responds to an idea and gives reasons
> (for
> or against). I think some here are attempting to sensor valid opinions.
> Censorship is the tool of the fearful. Are some here perhaps afraid of the
> wrath of powerful organizations such as the NEA. The concept of Unschooling
> IS the natural opposite of school. Perhaps some feel that if we openly
> criticize schools and it's supporters such as the government, NEA, and PTO,
> that the unschoolers way of life might be regulated out of existence. I
> thought this was "The Land of The Free and The Brave".
>
> Sherry
this particular forum isn't the place for political grandstanding, that's
all.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 8/9/02 10:12 AM, FoxgloveStudio@... at FoxgloveStudio@... wrote:
Sherry (since you addressed this to me directly),
As in this for example:
I think one of our most valuable commodities on this list is truth and
integrity. Opinions stated as facts and left unchallenged compromise that.
opinions perhaps seem like statements of fact.
To someone who doesn't agree there's a huge gap between his "evidence" and
his conclusions. I think the work he'd need to do to support his opinions
would clog up the list to the point of uselessness. (I suspect he believes
he has supported his opinions. But from my point of view I see some facts
and then wild, flying-leap conclusions.)
Since people signed on trusting that this list was about unschooling, it
would be helpful for list members if this discussion moved to a list
specifically for politics and schooling. (There might already be one at
Yahoo Groups.)
and political drivel.
(Unless someone wants to relate personal stories about their experiences or
their kids' experiences in the context of discussing unschooling. That's
always okay.)
I've been warning people for a long time not to trust what school officials
say about homeschooling and that the only information they should trust
about homeschooling legal issues is what's written in their state laws. (Ned
and I obviously have very different ideas about *why* you shouldn't trust
school officials to give out accurate homeschooling information.)
I've been telling people why schools and teachers will claim the total
opposite of what unschoolers will say about children and learning. (And it
has *nothing* to do with protecting their paychecks and *everything* to do
with being concerned about kids and truly believing that school and learning
go hand in hand. Which matches every teacher I've ever known. I don't know
any teachers that match Ned's profile that he says is so pervasive.)
Joyce
Sherry (since you addressed this to me directly),
> How can someone beWhen opinions are stated as though they were facts.
> unhelpful when he/she expresses or responds to an idea and gives reasons (for
> or against).
As in this for example:
>> Local controland
>> is now a myth kept alive by lying politicians. "The Blob" (the name for the
>> interlocking education bureaucracy) is still trying to create a homogeneous,
>> predictable, obedient mass of workers/spenders/taxpayers who will support
>> the millions of unproductive activities that are promoted in the schools and
>> elsewhere.
>> Yes, the NEA is the force behind all the efforts to eliminate homeschoolingI could pull out dozens more.
>> in America.
I think one of our most valuable commodities on this list is truth and
integrity. Opinions stated as facts and left unchallenged compromise that.
> I think some here are attempting to sensor valid opinions.To someone who agrees with Ned's particular brand of Libertarianism his
opinions perhaps seem like statements of fact.
To someone who doesn't agree there's a huge gap between his "evidence" and
his conclusions. I think the work he'd need to do to support his opinions
would clog up the list to the point of uselessness. (I suspect he believes
he has supported his opinions. But from my point of view I see some facts
and then wild, flying-leap conclusions.)
Since people signed on trusting that this list was about unschooling, it
would be helpful for list members if this discussion moved to a list
specifically for politics and schooling. (There might already be one at
Yahoo Groups.)
> Censorship is the tool of the fearful. Are some here perhaps afraid of theI fear people will leave the list because it's clogged up with negativity
> wrath of powerful organizations such as the NEA.
and political drivel.
> The concept of UnschoolingSo why even discuss schooling here?
> IS the natural opposite of school.
(Unless someone wants to relate personal stories about their experiences or
their kids' experiences in the context of discussing unschooling. That's
always okay.)
> Perhaps some feel that if we openlyIt is to laugh! HA!
> criticize schools and it's supporters such as the government, NEA, and PTO,
> that the unschoolers way of life might be regulated out of existence.
I've been warning people for a long time not to trust what school officials
say about homeschooling and that the only information they should trust
about homeschooling legal issues is what's written in their state laws. (Ned
and I obviously have very different ideas about *why* you shouldn't trust
school officials to give out accurate homeschooling information.)
I've been telling people why schools and teachers will claim the total
opposite of what unschoolers will say about children and learning. (And it
has *nothing* to do with protecting their paychecks and *everything* to do
with being concerned about kids and truly believing that school and learning
go hand in hand. Which matches every teacher I've ever known. I don't know
any teachers that match Ned's profile that he says is so pervasive.)
Joyce
Tia Leschke
>This is what I've found, both in my own school experiences and that of my
>I've been telling people why schools and teachers will claim the total
>opposite of what unschoolers will say about children and learning. (And it
>has *nothing* to do with protecting their paychecks and *everything* to do
>with being concerned about kids and truly believing that school and learning
>go hand in hand. Which matches every teacher I've ever known. I don't know
>any teachers that match Ned's profile that he says is so pervasive.)
older kids. (Also what I hear from friends with kids in school.) The vast
majority of the teachers I've run into *do* care and *do* believe that
their take on education is beneficial to the kids. That same vast majority
is also ineffective in educating kids, but then we know that. I've run
into a very small percentage of teachers who are really good and helpful to
kids, and a similar percentage who are really awful and damaging to kids.
The reason my son isn't in school is not because of some vast government
plot to control my child's life. It's simply because the system of
education we have here just isn't effective at producing adults who know
how to learn and think for themselves. It isn't flexible enough to work
well for most kids. And, not being part of the real world, it doesn't
prepare them very well for the real world.
Tia
What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island