Re: 2212 Radio Free Homeschooling
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
Joyce wrote:
Thanks for your comments. My purpose was not to create unnecessary fear
among our troops, but to point out that the reason school employees treat
homeschoolers with disrespect, distrust, disdain and often contempt is that
they see us as their enemy...as people who, if our numbers grow
sufficiently, will take jobs away from their unions and cause spending on
tax-funded schools to diminish. We threaten their job security.
The government education establishment, like every other bureaucratic
empire, wants one thing: To grow to the largest extent possible; to acquire
the greatest possible amount of money and power.
I did not say it was evil. I do say, however, that its effort is directed at
controlling the lives of as many people as it can. Its employees see us as a
challenge to that goal. That's why they won't leave us alone, and they won't
until we break the chains (laws) that limit our freedom.
Perhaps my words lack tact, but I do try to distinguish between the persons
(who might be decent human beings) and their actions (which, in regard to
homeschoolers, are often offensive). The government schools are filled with
"good people" who are doing terrible things, and it's because they work for
a diabolical self-serving system. I don't believe that when someone or some
group is working to eliminate my freedom, that it's time to be gracious
and/or tactful.
We are making inroads already. Inroads are the logical, necessary results of
taking our children out of that system, and that reduces their budgets and
their payrolls and their influence -- eventually.
If the public schools were doing a "good" job, homeschooling would not be
growing -- might not even exist, except for a few lonely individuals.
Joyce, referring to my post:
As I read the education news, I get the distinct impression that the NEA,
NFT, and other unions of public school employees, are doing everything in
their power to eliminate homeschooling. That is going on nationally -- in
every state and at the education nerve centers in Washington. According to
published reports, the NEA has many well-paid operatives whose job it is to
create strategies that work against homeschooling.
In CT (my current home -- on paper the absolute easiest state for
homeschooling) just last year, one superintendent got a legislator to
sponsor a bill that would have removed ALL the rights of homeschooers in our
state. It caused a huge hassle for us and a thousand of us had to go to the
capitol to fight for our freedom....again.
CT homeschoolers didn't (as you imply) >> *want* to believe they're being
attacked<< We were actually attacked, big time, and if we hadn't mobilized
quickly and effectively, we might have been thrown to the NEA lions without
having any say in the matter.
Joyce:
I refer you to the Declaration of Independence which did just that.
My purpose is only to say that, despite all the decent school people and
benevolent lawmakers, a constant threat exists, and homeschooling will not
live in ideal circumstances unless we are vigilant and, equally important,
working to remove ALL laws and regulations that limit our natural, sacred,
inalienable freedoms. Unless we do so, we will continue to be threatened and
put upon by those who stand to gain from the elimination of our practice.
I realize that it can be alarming and disturbing for some people to realize
that homeschoolers are treated like the Jews, gays and gypsies of Nazi
Germany (your reference, not mine, but an apt one considering how we are
made to cower and beg by the school authorities in many places).
Maybe what you are trying to say to me is, this list is not the place to
bring these topics up...if so, I'll honor that. Let us know.
Thanks for all your work.
Ned Vare
> Painting government workers and those who support them with a broad brush ofNed responds:
> evil may rally the troops against them but it won't make any inroads into
> that group. It just turns the world into two camps: us good guys and those
> bad guys.
Thanks for your comments. My purpose was not to create unnecessary fear
among our troops, but to point out that the reason school employees treat
homeschoolers with disrespect, distrust, disdain and often contempt is that
they see us as their enemy...as people who, if our numbers grow
sufficiently, will take jobs away from their unions and cause spending on
tax-funded schools to diminish. We threaten their job security.
The government education establishment, like every other bureaucratic
empire, wants one thing: To grow to the largest extent possible; to acquire
the greatest possible amount of money and power.
I did not say it was evil. I do say, however, that its effort is directed at
controlling the lives of as many people as it can. Its employees see us as a
challenge to that goal. That's why they won't leave us alone, and they won't
until we break the chains (laws) that limit our freedom.
Perhaps my words lack tact, but I do try to distinguish between the persons
(who might be decent human beings) and their actions (which, in regard to
homeschoolers, are often offensive). The government schools are filled with
"good people" who are doing terrible things, and it's because they work for
a diabolical self-serving system. I don't believe that when someone or some
group is working to eliminate my freedom, that it's time to be gracious
and/or tactful.
We are making inroads already. Inroads are the logical, necessary results of
taking our children out of that system, and that reduces their budgets and
their payrolls and their influence -- eventually.
If the public schools were doing a "good" job, homeschooling would not be
growing -- might not even exist, except for a few lonely individuals.
Joyce, referring to my post:
>>This makes for an effective rallying cry to gather the troops against theNed again:
>>enemy who seeks to control or destroy us. But it doesn't line up with
>>reality in every state.
As I read the education news, I get the distinct impression that the NEA,
NFT, and other unions of public school employees, are doing everything in
their power to eliminate homeschooling. That is going on nationally -- in
every state and at the education nerve centers in Washington. According to
published reports, the NEA has many well-paid operatives whose job it is to
create strategies that work against homeschooling.
In CT (my current home -- on paper the absolute easiest state for
homeschooling) just last year, one superintendent got a legislator to
sponsor a bill that would have removed ALL the rights of homeschooers in our
state. It caused a huge hassle for us and a thousand of us had to go to the
capitol to fight for our freedom....again.
CT homeschoolers didn't (as you imply) >> *want* to believe they're being
attacked<< We were actually attacked, big time, and if we hadn't mobilized
quickly and effectively, we might have been thrown to the NEA lions without
having any say in the matter.
Joyce:
>>Believing if we could get rid of evil government controlling us we'd all beNed replies:
>>happy<<
I refer you to the Declaration of Independence which did just that.
My purpose is only to say that, despite all the decent school people and
benevolent lawmakers, a constant threat exists, and homeschooling will not
live in ideal circumstances unless we are vigilant and, equally important,
working to remove ALL laws and regulations that limit our natural, sacred,
inalienable freedoms. Unless we do so, we will continue to be threatened and
put upon by those who stand to gain from the elimination of our practice.
I realize that it can be alarming and disturbing for some people to realize
that homeschoolers are treated like the Jews, gays and gypsies of Nazi
Germany (your reference, not mine, but an apt one considering how we are
made to cower and beg by the school authorities in many places).
Maybe what you are trying to say to me is, this list is not the place to
bring these topics up...if so, I'll honor that. Let us know.
Thanks for all your work.
Ned Vare
Tia Leschke
>Even John Holt said that he didn't think there would ever be more than a
>
>If the public schools were doing a "good" job, homeschooling would not be
>growing -- might not even exist, except for a few lonely individuals.
small percentage of families homeschooling. Most want the
babysitting. Many don't enjoy being around their kids. And many have been
brainwashed into thinking they wouldn't be capable. Most people don't
believe they can trust their kids to learn.
>As I read the education news, I get the distinct impression that the NEA,Sure they'd like to eliminate homeschooling. From what I've seen, they
>NFT, and other unions of public school employees, are doing everything in
>their power to eliminate homeschooling. That is going on nationally -- in
>every state and at the education nerve centers in Washington. According to
>published reports, the NEA has many well-paid operatives whose job it is to
>create strategies that work against homeschooling.
haven't had much of an effect. Not that we don't need to be vigilant, but
I just don't see that they've been very successful.
>In CT (my current home -- on paper the absolute easiest state forInteresting that you say that it was one superintendent that caused all
>homeschooling) just last year, one superintendent got a legislator to
>sponsor a bill that would have removed ALL the rights of homeschooers in our
>state. It caused a huge hassle for us and a thousand of us had to go to the
>capitol to fight for our freedom....again.
>
>CT homeschoolers didn't (as you imply) >> *want* to believe they're being
>attacked<< We were actually attacked, big time, and if we hadn't mobilized
>quickly and effectively, we might have been thrown to the NEA lions without
>having any say in the matter.
this trouble but then blame the N.E.A.
>Joyce:Got rid of one evil government controlling you and substituted another?
> >>Believing if we could get rid of evil government controlling us we'd all be
> >>happy<<
>
>Ned replies:
> I refer you to the Declaration of Independence which did just that.
>Maybe what you are trying to say to me is, this list is not the place toI think a number of people have been trying to say just that.
>bring these topics up...if so, I'll honor that. Let us know.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/8/02 10:09:34 AM, nedvare@... writes:
<< but to point out that the reason school employees treat
homeschoolers with disrespect, distrust, disdain and often contempt is that
they see us as their enemy... >>
Ned.
Please.
There are lots of homeschoolers in Albuquerque who are homeschooling on the
recommendation of their kids' teachers in schools. And it wasn't done in a
snarky way, but in a GREAT way--"Your child is a great candidate for
homeschooling. School is going to frustrate the heck out of him. If you
don't know any homeschoolers I can get you some contacts."
I just talked on the phone for 45 minutes to a new homeschooler here locally.
Her son is seven, and went to first grade last year. Her mom teaches third
grade, and told her a bunch about intelligences, and told her NOT to try to
recreate school or use any of their methods, but to do things with her son on
an entirely individual and creative basis.
Do you think the government will take these teachers for jail now for not
being the government minions you're assuring us they are supposed to be?
<<The government education establishment, like every other bureaucratic
empire, wants one thing: To grow to the largest extent possible; to acquire
the greatest possible amount of money and power.
<<I did not say it was evil. >>
Probably nobody here would read the larger paragraph above as that being a
good thing.
I don't read it as being a true thing. "Bureaucratic empire" and the rest of
the rhetoric is not helpful to those here who are trying to learn more about
unschooling.
<<That's why they won't leave us alone,>>
Schools ARE leaving us alone.
I wish we could be left alone from a daily or hourly dose of how the the
persons
(who might be decent human beings) and their actions (which, in regard to
homeschoolers, are often offensive). The government schools are filled with
"good people" who are doing terrible things, and it's because they work for
a diabolical self-serving system.>>
Diabolical is probably right in the thesaurus under "evil."
Can you just stop about the schools for one week maybe? And if the list
does well without out it, consider another week?
<<I don't believe that when someone or some
group is working to eliminate my freedom, that it's time to be gracious
and/or tactful.>>
Maybe you could send those tirades to school board members then, if you think
they're working to eliminate your freedom.
This list was created for and is comprised chiefly of people who want to
share information about unschooling, not about schools or politics or evil
empires.
<<I realize that it can be alarming and disturbing for some people to realize
that homeschoolers are treated like the Jews, gays and gypsies of Nazi
Germany (your reference, not mine, but an apt one considering how we are
made to cower and beg by the school authorities in many places).>>
"Cower and beg" is so overstated it's laughable.
More states than not require nothing of homeschoolers.
<<Maybe what you are trying to say to me is, this list is not the place to
bring these topics up...if so, I'll honor that. Let us know.>>
Is there a Luz without Ned? Is there an option for dialog and not tirade? I
like the posts about your house and your son. I just don't like the
Rant-o-Rama of Darkness.
Sandra
<< but to point out that the reason school employees treat
homeschoolers with disrespect, distrust, disdain and often contempt is that
they see us as their enemy... >>
Ned.
Please.
There are lots of homeschoolers in Albuquerque who are homeschooling on the
recommendation of their kids' teachers in schools. And it wasn't done in a
snarky way, but in a GREAT way--"Your child is a great candidate for
homeschooling. School is going to frustrate the heck out of him. If you
don't know any homeschoolers I can get you some contacts."
I just talked on the phone for 45 minutes to a new homeschooler here locally.
Her son is seven, and went to first grade last year. Her mom teaches third
grade, and told her a bunch about intelligences, and told her NOT to try to
recreate school or use any of their methods, but to do things with her son on
an entirely individual and creative basis.
Do you think the government will take these teachers for jail now for not
being the government minions you're assuring us they are supposed to be?
<<The government education establishment, like every other bureaucratic
empire, wants one thing: To grow to the largest extent possible; to acquire
the greatest possible amount of money and power.
<<I did not say it was evil. >>
Probably nobody here would read the larger paragraph above as that being a
good thing.
I don't read it as being a true thing. "Bureaucratic empire" and the rest of
the rhetoric is not helpful to those here who are trying to learn more about
unschooling.
<<That's why they won't leave us alone,>>
Schools ARE leaving us alone.
I wish we could be left alone from a daily or hourly dose of how the the
persons
(who might be decent human beings) and their actions (which, in regard to
homeschoolers, are often offensive). The government schools are filled with
"good people" who are doing terrible things, and it's because they work for
a diabolical self-serving system.>>
Diabolical is probably right in the thesaurus under "evil."
Can you just stop about the schools for one week maybe? And if the list
does well without out it, consider another week?
<<I don't believe that when someone or some
group is working to eliminate my freedom, that it's time to be gracious
and/or tactful.>>
Maybe you could send those tirades to school board members then, if you think
they're working to eliminate your freedom.
This list was created for and is comprised chiefly of people who want to
share information about unschooling, not about schools or politics or evil
empires.
<<I realize that it can be alarming and disturbing for some people to realize
that homeschoolers are treated like the Jews, gays and gypsies of Nazi
Germany (your reference, not mine, but an apt one considering how we are
made to cower and beg by the school authorities in many places).>>
"Cower and beg" is so overstated it's laughable.
More states than not require nothing of homeschoolers.
<<Maybe what you are trying to say to me is, this list is not the place to
bring these topics up...if so, I'll honor that. Let us know.>>
Is there a Luz without Ned? Is there an option for dialog and not tirade? I
like the posts about your house and your son. I just don't like the
Rant-o-Rama of Darkness.
Sandra
zenmomma *
>>I realize that it can be alarming and disturbing for some people toOh puleeze! This is just insulting to the millions of Jews, gypsies,
>>realize that homeschoolers are treated like the Jews, gays and gypsies of
>>Nazi Germany (your reference, not mine, but an apt one considering how we
>>are made to cower and beg by the school authorities in many places).>>
homosexuals and others murdered systematically during WWII. There is NO way
that homeschoolers are at all being treated in such a way. And for the
record I am cowering and begging to no one.
>>Maybe what you are trying to say to me is, this list is not the place toI'm in agreement that the Libertrian rhetoric and sensationalism might be
>>bring these topics up...if so, I'll honor that. Let us know.>>
better off in a different forum.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Fetteroll
on 8/8/02 12:09 PM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
unschooling.
I think it's hurtful to anyone here with kids in public school. And hurtful
to anyone with good friends whose kids are in public school.
I think it's offputting to anyone still in the system who's curious about
homeschooling.
I think it creates an unnecessary adversarial attitude between homeschoolers
and teachers. (Accusing people of selfish motives won't open any dialogs. I
think we should build bridges of reason and results not walls of rhetoric
and mud slinging.)
I think it's a bunch of hooey. But that's nothing more than my opinion.
So, yeah, I think this list is not the place. And I think Helen said that
too in the "Bad rhetoric and unschooling" thread. And being list owner I
think she gets at least two votes ;-)
> Maybe what you are trying to say to me is, this list is not the place toI think it's unhelpful for anyone trying to move from schoolish thinking to
> bring these topics up...if so, I'll honor that. Let us know.
unschooling.
I think it's hurtful to anyone here with kids in public school. And hurtful
to anyone with good friends whose kids are in public school.
I think it's offputting to anyone still in the system who's curious about
homeschooling.
I think it creates an unnecessary adversarial attitude between homeschoolers
and teachers. (Accusing people of selfish motives won't open any dialogs. I
think we should build bridges of reason and results not walls of rhetoric
and mud slinging.)
I think it's a bunch of hooey. But that's nothing more than my opinion.
So, yeah, I think this list is not the place. And I think Helen said that
too in the "Bad rhetoric and unschooling" thread. And being list owner I
think she gets at least two votes ;-)
> I agree with Sandra. It doesn't really serve our purposes on thisJoyce
> list to be so negative about schools and schooling. They're still a
> fact of life for many unschooling families, as other children in the
> family might be attending school for various reasons (not the least
> of which is some kids LIKE school and get a lot out of it), relatives
> (cousins etc.) will be almost certainly attending school, friends and
> relatives might be schoolteachers, etc.
>
> At Home Education Magazine we've always tried to take a generally
> positive approach to homeschooling and unschooling, helping people
> find alternatives when they've decided it's time to go seeking, but
> not going out of our way to convince people that they're doing the
> wrong thing and need to change (well, with one significant
> politically-charged exception <g>). We quite regularly reject
> articles badmouthing schools and teachers and the whole educational
> bureaucracy, not because we want to promote the schooling experience
> (*far* from it, trust me), but because it just doesn't make any sense
> to us to try to build up what we believe in, what we trust and rely
> on, by tearing down what other people might believe in and trust and
> rely on. There are better ways to get along in the world.
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/8/2002 12:17:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
etc., except as they related to unschooling. I mean - sometimes it comes up
in the natural context of explaining our own situations, for exampel. So be
it.
But we all come from different positions on the political spectrum and some
of us, in fact, ARE those nasty government agents called teachers and yet we
are also parents of unschooling kids. Let's talk about learning.
Frank Smith says that when some is engaged in real learning, that they won't
even realize they are learning - that the experience is not at all like that
of college students cramming for exams where you certainly KNOW you are
"learning."
Whaddya think about that?
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> > Maybe what you are trying to say to me is, this list is not the place toLet's talk ABOUT unschooling and not talk ABOUT schools and governments,
> > bring these topics up...if so, I'll honor that. Let us know.
>
> I think it's unhelpful for anyone trying to move from schoolish thinking to
> unschooling.
etc., except as they related to unschooling. I mean - sometimes it comes up
in the natural context of explaining our own situations, for exampel. So be
it.
But we all come from different positions on the political spectrum and some
of us, in fact, ARE those nasty government agents called teachers and yet we
are also parents of unschooling kids. Let's talk about learning.
Frank Smith says that when some is engaged in real learning, that they won't
even realize they are learning - that the experience is not at all like that
of college students cramming for exams where you certainly KNOW you are
"learning."
Whaddya think about that?
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
audrey elwood
you know stalin killed 21 million of his own peasants... noone ever seems to
bring HIM up.hitler hitler hitler-have you ever wondered if hitler may have
asked for forgiveness,been forgiven and will be w/ all of you in heaven?i
have.by the way-hitler was austrian
audrey
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
bring HIM up.hitler hitler hitler-have you ever wondered if hitler may have
asked for forgiveness,been forgiven and will be w/ all of you in heaven?i
have.by the way-hitler was austrian
audrey
>From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2212 Radio Free Homeschooling
>Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:34:21 -0600
>
> >>I realize that it can be alarming and disturbing for some people to
> >>realize that homeschoolers are treated like the Jews, gays and gypsies
>of
> >>Nazi Germany (your reference, not mine, but an apt one considering how
>we
> >>are made to cower and beg by the school authorities in many places).>>
>
>Oh puleeze! This is just insulting to the millions of Jews, gypsies,
>homosexuals and others murdered systematically during WWII. There is NO way
>that homeschoolers are at all being treated in such a way. And for the
>record I am cowering and begging to no one.
>
> >>Maybe what you are trying to say to me is, this list is not the place to
> >>bring these topics up...if so, I'll honor that. Let us know.>>
>
>I'm in agreement that the Libertrian rhetoric and sensationalism might be
>better off in a different forum.
>
>Life is good.
>~Mary
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/8/2002 1:00:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
audreyelwood@... writes:
How right you are, and Mao killed even more than Stalin. Chalk up our going
easy on those two guys to our weakness for humane rhetoric ("the poor ..."),
our being susceptive to easy anger at perceived injustice ("workers ..."),
and our natural inclination toward envy ("the rich ...").
Hitler, Mao, and Stalin were all nationalists at heart. One difference is
that Hitler spoke in nationalist terms, terms that involve race, blood, and
soil. Mao and Stalin spoke using the language of class, terms that involve
comparing ourselves with our neighbors, our teachers, and our bosses.
That so many Americans have a sick love affair with Marxism and communism is
truly disturbing.
Still, I think Hitler was the most revolutionary of the three, and thus needs
to be studied the most. Being the less mass murderer of the three is no
virtue!
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
audreyelwood@... writes:
> you know stalin killed 21 million of his own peasants... noone ever seems toAudrey,
>
> bring HIM up
How right you are, and Mao killed even more than Stalin. Chalk up our going
easy on those two guys to our weakness for humane rhetoric ("the poor ..."),
our being susceptive to easy anger at perceived injustice ("workers ..."),
and our natural inclination toward envy ("the rich ...").
Hitler, Mao, and Stalin were all nationalists at heart. One difference is
that Hitler spoke in nationalist terms, terms that involve race, blood, and
soil. Mao and Stalin spoke using the language of class, terms that involve
comparing ourselves with our neighbors, our teachers, and our bosses.
That so many Americans have a sick love affair with Marxism and communism is
truly disturbing.
Still, I think Hitler was the most revolutionary of the three, and thus needs
to be studied the most. Being the less mass murderer of the three is no
virtue!
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**
Frank Smith says that when some is engaged in real learning, that they
won't
even realize they are learning - that the experience is not at all like
that
of college students cramming for exams where you certainly KNOW you are
"learning."**
I've been trying to reread his Book of Learning and Forgetting before
the Sacramento conference, but I keep setting it down and forgetting
where it is.
I really like his thesis that education went off the rails when it got
really focused on memorizing lists of things and scoring the results. I
don't see a conspiracy, I see a pseudo-scientific idea run amok.
I believe a lot of effortless learning happens in life. Most of it
isn't effortless learning of factoids though.
Betsy
Frank Smith says that when some is engaged in real learning, that they
won't
even realize they are learning - that the experience is not at all like
that
of college students cramming for exams where you certainly KNOW you are
"learning."**
I've been trying to reread his Book of Learning and Forgetting before
the Sacramento conference, but I keep setting it down and forgetting
where it is.
I really like his thesis that education went off the rails when it got
really focused on memorizing lists of things and scoring the results. I
don't see a conspiracy, I see a pseudo-scientific idea run amok.
I believe a lot of effortless learning happens in life. Most of it
isn't effortless learning of factoids though.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/8/2002 2:22:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
factoid about Pokemon cards or about baseball or soccer or whatever.
-pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
> I believe a lot of effortless learning happens in life. Most of itExcept - it often is, isn't it? Thinking of the kids who know EVERY little
> isn't effortless learning of factoids though.
factoid about Pokemon cards or about baseball or soccer or whatever.
-pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debi watson
I've been trying to reread his Book of Learning and Forgetting before
the Sacramento conference, but I keep setting it down and forgetting
where it is.
LOL!! I guess you haven't read enough of it yet -- or is it not a "How To" book? Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the Sacramento conference, but I keep setting it down and forgetting
where it is.
LOL!! I guess you haven't read enough of it yet -- or is it not a "How To" book? Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
you know stalin killed 21 million of his own peasants... noone ever seems to
bring HIM up.hitler hitler hitler-have you ever wondered if hitler may have
asked for forgiveness,been forgiven and will be w/ all of you in heaven?i
Well since I am a heathen that means he won't be there with me. Thank
whoever.
What a disgusting offensive thought.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
bring HIM up.hitler hitler hitler-have you ever wondered if hitler may have
asked for forgiveness,been forgiven and will be w/ all of you in heaven?i
Well since I am a heathen that means he won't be there with me. Thank
whoever.
What a disgusting offensive thought.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein