Luz Shosie and Ned Vare

on 8/5/02 8:10 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

Dar wrote, in 2194:

> I like the idea of setting up learning resource centers where people of
> all ages are welcome.I also like Ivan Illich's ideas about creating 4
> networks of educational resources:

I strongly agree. In fact, here's an article I wrote last year on just this
idea....

Library as School
by Ned Vare

Years ago, John Holt talked about the difference between libraries and
public schools -- both government-run. He described the difference as
largely centered on the attitude of the employees. In libraries, the
attitude is ALWAYS, "How can I help you?" There is an understanding that the
patron is seeking information, and the purpose of the employee is to help
the patron find it. No questions asked. No mention of the patron being too
young or not being dressed properly; no discussion about the appropriateness
of the information or the "readiness" of the patron to learn it; no mention
of testing or judging, no timetables, no hall passes, no arbitrary rules, no
need to ask permission to go pee. The library attitude is benevolence and
service.

Public schools, of course, do all those impertinent things, and worse. Their
attitude is, "Sit down and shut up, What can you do that I can judge? How
can I impose my will on you? How can I control your life? How can you fit
into OUR plan?² This may not be the attitude of every employee, but it is
definitely the attitude of the institution and its unions, and that's what
matters.

For a public school to be more like a library would mean big changes, such
as: eliminate curriculula; eliminate groupings based on age, eliminate
grading, scoring, testing, sorting of patrons; eliminate most rules,
schedules, timetables; eliminate certification of teachers (let anyone who
can, teach -- it's the learner's choice) and keep only teachers whose
services are in demand by patrons; eliminate most administrators and other
non-teaching personnel such as psychologists, "deans," coordinators,
lunchroom monitors, police guards, and therapists. Let sports be handled by
another organization, and paid for by its patrons.

Of course, whether they're homeschooling or not, children are welcome at
public libraries, where they learn how to use the catalog, the
computers, the restroom, the services of the friendly respectful
courteous employees and, smiling happily, go about their learning in their
own ways. What would turn such a facility into a "school" would simply be to
have teacher/guides available to offer the public of all ages their services
as facilitators in whatever areas of interest the patrons choose. END

So, let's start.

Ned Vare

kayb85

Good article. :)

Of course I have to mention that not all librarians are friendly. We
go to two libraries regularly. One has very friendly staff but not
very many up to date books. And even though they are friendly and
have recently got computers, the staff is very clear that they aren't
computer teachers. In other words, they have no idea how to use
those new-fangled contraptions. ;)

The other library has a better selection of books but VERY rude
staff. I think they don't like children. Or questions. They don't
smile. They constantly say "Shhhhhhh..." You have to be in first
grade (whatever that is!) to have a library card. You have to be an
adult to get 8 books on your card. Kids can get 6 books. No more
than 3 of the same topic. That means when I go to the library with
my 3 kids, 2 of whom are preschoolers, two of us can get 3 books at a
time and two of us can get 4 books at a time. And if any of us are
interested in the same topic, we're in real trouble. Ugh.
Sheila

> Of course, whether they're homeschooling or not, children are
welcome at
> public libraries, where they learn how to use the catalog, the
> computers, the restroom, the services of the friendly respectful
> courteous employees and, smiling happily, go about their learning
in their
> own ways. What would turn such a facility into a "school" would
simply be to
> have teacher/guides available to offer the public of all ages their
services
> as facilitators in whatever areas of interest the patrons choose.
END
>
> So, let's start.
>
> Ned Vare

joanna514

> Of course, whether they're homeschooling or not, children are
welcome at
> public libraries, where they learn how to use the catalog, the
> computers, the restroom, the services of the friendly respectful
> courteous employees and, smiling happily, go about their learning
in their
> own ways. What would turn such a facility into a "school" would
simply be to
> have teacher/guides available to offer the public of all ages their
services
> as facilitators in whatever areas of interest the patrons choose.
END
>
> So, let's start.
>
> Ned Vare

Your ideas are grand, but in my experience, not close to reality.
Many people, whether they work in the school system, the library or
the grocery store have prejudices against children.
Have you ever walked into a library with 4 or more kids? 75% of the
library employees aren't what I would call, courteous and respectful
to us. Some of the ladies are down right scary! Libraries are places
to BE QUIET! I even witnessed one librarian(the one in charge of the
childrens programs for some odd reason) severely shushing and shaming
kids at a program where there was a magician. He was encouraging the
kids to answer his questions and participate with him.
This lady was a watch dog waiting for these kids to actually enjoy
themselves. She made a spectacle of herself, all the while thinking
she was doing a good job controlling these kids.
I went to a library near my parents and was thrilled when I found the
kids section downstairs away form all those noise fearing adults. We
had a great time, and the librarian was friendly and obviously liked
kids. We stayed for hours watching vidoes on a big screen tv,
playing computer games and ofcoarse, reading books. We came back a
few days later because the experience was so much nicer than the ones
we get from our libraries in our area. Unfortuately, there was a
different librarian on duty and it was the same old feelings of
walking on ice and getting out of there quickly and quietly.
My kids know library etiquette, and are usually in good form when we
go, but we can't stay long and we rarely feel welcome.
Joanna

joanna514

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "kayb85" <sheran@p...> wrote:
> Good article. :)
>
> Of course I have to mention that not all librarians are friendly.
We
> go to two libraries regularly. One has very friendly staff but not
> very many up to date books. And even though they are friendly and
> have recently got computers, the staff is very clear that they
aren't
> computer teachers. In other words, they have no idea how to use
> those new-fangled contraptions. ;)
>
> The other library has a better selection of books but VERY rude
> staff. I think they don't like children. Or questions. They don't
> smile. They constantly say "Shhhhhhh..." You have to be in first
> grade (whatever that is!) to have a library card. You have to be an
> adult to get 8 books on your card. Kids can get 6 books. No more
> than 3 of the same topic. That means when I go to the library with
> my 3 kids, 2 of whom are preschoolers, two of us can get 3 books at
a
> time and two of us can get 4 books at a time. And if any of us are
> interested in the same topic, we're in real trouble. Ugh.
> Sheila
>

Man, and I thought I had it bad! We can atleast take home all the
books we can carry and there is no age restriction on library cards.
Joanna