[email protected]

I'm sorry, but it doesn't make any sense at all to me to try to compare
physical abuse and corporal punishment of children...to rude posts. And
to disagree very strongly with a co-members unschooling view and put up
an argument in defense of your own views _can_ be done tactfully.

Hugs,
Denise

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/02 9:22:40 AM, kevden@... writes:

<< I'm sorry, but it doesn't make any sense at all to me to try to compare
physical abuse and corporal punishment of children...to rude posts. >>

I didn't.

I compared strong posts about important ideas to other strong posts about
other important ideas.

<<And
to disagree very strongly with a co-members unschooling view and put up
an argument in defense of your own views _can_ be done tactfully.>>

But people can show that by DOING that instead of staying out of a dicsussion
entirely except for complaining about the way the discussion is unfolding.

Sandra

zenmomma *

>>I'm sorry, but it doesn't make any sense at all to me to try to compare
>>physical abuse and corporal punishment of children...to rude posts.>>

I thought the point was more about the need to speak up strongly when you
think someone is giving advice that may be potentially harmful to kids. Some
folks here have very strong feelings about someone insisting there is a
"right" way to read. They believe it will hurt the many kids who can't or
won't learn in that "right" way. From that point of view, I can follow the
analogy.

>>And to disagree very strongly with a co-members unschooling view and put
>>up an argument in defense of your own views _can_ be done tactfully.>>

Yup.

Maybe it's time to start talking uschooling again and get off the posts
about posts discussions. Those are always so circular. So what's going on in
your unschooling home Denise? :o)

Life is good.
~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/2002 8:22:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
kevden@... writes:


> I'm sorry, but it doesn't make any sense at all to me to try to compare
> physical abuse and corporal punishment of children...to rude posts. And
> to disagree very strongly with a co-members unschooling view and put up
> an argument in defense of your own views _can_ be done tactfully.

I don't agree that there have even BEEN rude posts in the short time since
you joined the list.

But, if they do appear overly tactless to you, you might want to consider
what "Miss Manners" has to say about vigilante etiquette patrols:

"Gentle Reader,
How, pray, were you planning to fight back against rudeness? By bawling this
person out?

Thank you so much, but Miss Manners does not need that kind of help in the
fight against rudeness. You only add to the amount of rudeness in the world
when you behave that way, and the object is to reduce it. Vigilante etiquette
patrols are part of the problem, not of the solution.

Members of the public are not authorized to go around teaching one another
manners; even Miss Manners does not do that."


Let's stop the finger-pointing and just talk about unschooling, whaddya say?

--pamS

National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Luz Shosie and Ned Vare

Liza writes about a book that:

>> talks about the SIX WAYS (Ned,
>>are you counting) we learn to read and one of them is (Yes, Ned) by
>>'sounding out words'.<<

Ned asks: Does it just talk about them or does it describe them? Please,
may we hear about the other five ways?

Liza also writes, about that same book:

>>the last paragraph suggests, it is
>>not a how-to book, but a book about boosting reading confidence<<

Ned again: The original question was from Sheila, who asked us what to do
after her son asked her Will you teach me how to read? I thought, perhaps in
my madness, that he wanted to learn HOW TO READ. I don't remember that
Sheila was asking us for ways to boost his reading confidence, or to give
him more motivation. Those are therapy. He did not need therapy. He wanted
a skill.

I have nothing against the book, but I have been laboring under the idea
that the discussion is about HOW-TO, not *Gee, reading sure is fun if you
can just somehow get the hang of it.* He needs the hang of it. He's got a
sister for goodness sake. ?) that's a wink, my new keyboard discovery

Ned Vare

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/02 10:38:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:


> Obviously, you can just 'have at' each other here, so I'll go back to
> lurkdom and ponder whether I should just try to find a nicer unschooler
> list or if I should just use my delete button next time this happens.
> BTW....does anyone know of a 'kinder, gentler' unschooling list?
>
> Hugs,
> Denise
>
>
>
>

HI DENISE~ its DENISE~ did you find a kindler gentler unschooling list?? THis
is my 2nd time on this one and i aree with you 100% . we could email each
other privately i suppose! DENISE from BFLO


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/02 10:38:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:


> Live with a person to understand that person;
> >Live with a family to understand that family;
> >Live with a community to understand that community;
> >Live with a culture to understand that culture;
> >Live with the world to understand the world.
> >
> >How can I live with the world?
> >By accepting.
>
>
> Liza
>
>
>

im all for the tao~ i can ACCEPT that meaness exists.i dont have to be there
for it.....Denise from BFLO


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

oh you know?? DUH On all of us~ there is NO ONE WAY for anyone to learn
anything. we all learn to read (music or words) by MEMORIZING, sounding out,
shapes of words, pictures, hearing (audio) and WHAT S THE OTHER ONE????/so
each one of us is different and each one of us excels or USES one of these
more than the other and I THINK UNSCHOOLING is about allowing each person to
learn in his /her own way, making ALL of the ways available! I WOULD LIKE TO
NOT UNSUBSCRIBE (double negative) and continue gathering ideas from
everyone......if we could please not argue. DENISE from BFLO


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>im all for the tao~ i can ACCEPT that meaness exists.i dont have to be
>>there for it.....Denise from BFLO>>

What meanness? I'm serious. I really haven't seen whatever awful posting it
is that you are calling mean. And I haven't seen any responses from people
to my questions about their unschooling lives. I haven't noticed anyone who
is complaining actually putting forth an effort to create an interesting,
meaningful, enlightening *new* discussion. C'mon ladies, if you don't like
the tone of a certain discussion, let's turn it around and discuss something
else.

Life is good.
~Mary, the Taoist


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/2002 2:25:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
nedvare@... writes:


> Liza writes about a book that:
>
> >> talks about the SIX WAYS (Ned,
> >>are you counting) we learn to read and one of them is (Yes, Ned) by
> >>'sounding out words'.<<
>
> Ned asks: Does it just talk about them or does it describe them? Please,
> may we hear about the other five ways?
>
> Liza also writes, about that same book:
>
> >>the last paragraph suggests, it is
> >>not a how-to book, but a book about boosting reading confidence<<
>
> Ned again: The original question was from Sheila, who asked us what to do
> after her son asked her Will you teach me how to read? I thought, perhaps
> in
> my madness, that he wanted to learn HOW TO READ. I don't remember that
> Sheila was asking us for ways to boost his reading confidence, or to give
> him more motivation. Those are therapy. He did not need therapy. He wanted
> a skill.
>
> I have nothing against the book, but I have been laboring under the idea
> that the discussion is about HOW-TO, not *Gee, reading sure is fun if you
> can just somehow get the hang of it.* He needs the hang of it. He's got a
> sister for goodness sake. ?) that's a wink, my new keyboard discovery
>
> Ned Vare
>

In fact, the book is really called: Hey! I'm Reading!: A How-To-Read Book for
Beginners. I think the confidence stuff comes in because it gets kids
actually reading quickly - using a variety of strategies (see the six listed
below) and that USING various different strategies, some of which will work
better, at first, than others, for different kids, they gain confidence and
that supports them as they keep working on learning more.


Here is a description of the book:

****Learning to read is a big step for anyone. Betty Miles demystifies the
process by revealing the secrets behind one of life’s most important and
enjoyable skills. Hey! I’m Reading! is for children who are just getting
ready to read — and for the parents, relatives, teachers, and friends who
want to help them. Part 1 tells beginners how much they already know about
reading and includes 10 simple questions children can answer for themselves
to see if they are ready to use the book. Part 2 introduces new readers to
six skills all readers use to decode words. Part 3 features short stories,
poems, and puzzles so beginners can try out their new skills. Armed with
confidence, skills, and practice, children will delight in finding that they
are reading!****

Here are the 6 steps in the "how-to" part of the book -- the book is written
directly to the kids, by the way, assuming parents are there to help out.

***********

1. Getting help from pictures. A picture can help to tell you what the words
say.
2. Remembering. You remember some words because you see them over and over.
3. Sounding out the letters. The sounds of the letters in a word can help you
to read it.
4. Expecting what comes next. Expecting words to come along makes you ready
to read them.
5. Writing. Writing words is good practice for reading them.
6. Making sense. If what you read makes sense to you, you're probably reading
it right.
************



pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/2002 4:11:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
zenmomma@... writes:


> C'mon ladies, if you don't like
> the tone of a certain discussion, let's turn it around and discuss
> something
> else.

I read/scanned a bunch of a book about research on brain development today.
It is written specifically for classroom teachers - basically says that we
know a lot about brain development but don't use anything of what we know in
educating kids. It was too expensive for me to buy -- "Teaching With the
Brain in Mind" was the title. But one thing it talked about was that kids are
so RESTRICTED - just in physical movement - that he considers that many
learning disabilities, including dyslexia, may be directly a result of
children NOT having enough large motor movement when they are from 1 to 3
years old. He says, for example, that in 1960 2 yo's spent about 200 hours in
a car (not in a car seat, either). In a recent year - (1999?) they spent 500
hours strapped in carseats. He says parents don't "make up for" the loss of
movement-time --- even though there is lots of evidence that points up the
importance of physical movement on brain development in those first few years
of life.

There is a lot more. Great book. I'd like to hear the author speak to
homeschoolers sometime.

He talks about how brain development is dependent on appropriate amounts of
challenge and how difficult that is to create in a classroom -- I just wanted
to YELL right there in the bookstore -- THE KID WILL KNOW how much challenge
is optimal - let them work it out themselves!!!! Give them freedom and
they'll challenge themselves JUST RIGHT!!!

--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

sounds like a very interesting book.. it is so frustrating to me to think that schools so totally ignore these things..

schools are better than home for a LOT of kids... too many kids find more stability and safety there than in their own homes and i am glad they have schools to go to.. if only the educational systems paid more attention to SCIENCE... PSYCHOLOGY... RESEARCH.... instead of politics and the effort to keep their jobs easy and stable.. it is so sad.. and then the teachers that DO pay attention to the way kids really learn.. well they are so successful they end up in some admin job away from students, but not powerful enuf to make any difference..anyway this is what i've seen around here lately from working within the system and dealign with it from the outside for my older son..

L
----- Original Message -----
From: PSoroosh@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2187


In a message dated 8/4/2002 4:11:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
zenmomma@... writes:

I read/scanned a bunch of a book about research on brain development today.
It is written specifically for classroom teachers - basically says that we
know a lot about brain development but don't use anything of what we know in
educating kids. It was too expensive for me to buy -- "Teaching With the
Brain in Mind" was the title. But one thing it talked about was that kids are
so RESTRICTED - just in physical movement - that he considers that many
learning disabilities, including dyslexia, may be directly a result of
children NOT having enough large motor movement when they are from 1 to 3
years old. He says, for example, that in 1960 2 yo's spent about 200 hours in
a car (not in a car seat, either). In a recent year - (1999?) they spent 500
hours strapped in carseats. He says parents don't "make up for" the loss of
movement-time --- even though there is lots of evidence that points up the
importance of physical movement on brain development in those first few years
of life.

There is a lot more. Great book. I'd like to hear the author speak to
homeschoolers sometime.

He talks about how brain development is dependent on appropriate amounts of
challenge and how difficult that is to create in a classroom -- I just wanted
to YELL right there in the bookstore -- THE KID WILL KNOW how much challenge
is optimal - let them work it out themselves!!!! Give them freedom and
they'll challenge themselves JUST RIGHT!!!

--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Liza Sabater

Ned,

The book is about pointing out to the child that wants to read that
he or she indeed does not need to be "taught" because they already
have the skills for reading. All they need to do now is practice. I
highly recommend you give it a look.

As for the 6 ways to read:
1. Getting help from pictures
2. Remembering
3.Sounding out letters
4.Expecting what comes next
5.Writing
6.Making sense

Of course, it explains these but if I write all of it I might as well
charge y'all for transcribing the book. It costs $7.99 and it is a
great resource. Public libraries may have hardcover version.

Liza



>Liza writes about a book that:
>
>>> talks about the SIX WAYS (Ned,
>>>are you counting) we learn to read and one of them is (Yes, Ned) by
>>>'sounding out words'.<<
>
>Ned asks: Does it just talk about them or does it describe them? Please,
>may we hear about the other five ways?
>
>Liza also writes, about that same book:
>
>>>the last paragraph suggests, it is
>>>not a how-to book, but a book about boosting reading confidence<<
>
>Ned again: The original question was from Sheila, who asked us what to do
>after her son asked her Will you teach me how to read? I thought, perhaps in
>my madness, that he wanted to learn HOW TO READ. I don't remember that
>Sheila was asking us for ways to boost his reading confidence, or to give
>him more motivation. Those are therapy. He did not need therapy. He wanted
>a skill.
>
>I have nothing against the book, but I have been laboring under the idea
>that the discussion is about HOW-TO, not *Gee, reading sure is fun if you
>can just somehow get the hang of it.* He needs the hang of it. He's got a
>sister for goodness sake. ?) that's a wink, my new keyboard discovery
>
>Ned Vare
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

wow.. thanks. i'm headed to amazon.. i've got a grandchild to think of... (yeah.. like his mom will listen to ME.. hahaha.. she is still young enuf to think she knows it all.. )

but.. gotta put in my two cents worth..
L
----- Original Message -----
From: Liza Sabater
To: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 7:37 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Digest Number 2187


Ned,

The book is about pointing out to the child that wants to read that
he or she indeed does not need to be "taught" because they already
have the skills for reading. All they need to do now is practice. I
highly recommend you give it a look.

As for the 6 ways to read:
1. Getting help from pictures
2. Remembering
3.Sounding out letters
4.Expecting what comes next
5.Writing
6.Making sense

Of course, it explains these but if I write all of it I might as well
charge y'all for transcribing the book. It costs $7.99 and it is a
great resource. Public libraries may have hardcover version.

Liza



>Liza writes about a book that:
>
>>> talks about the SIX WAYS (Ned,
>>>are you counting) we learn to read and one of them is (Yes, Ned) by
>>>'sounding out words'.<<
>
>Ned asks: Does it just talk about them or does it describe them? Please,
>may we hear about the other five ways?
>
>Liza also writes, about that same book:
>
>>>the last paragraph suggests, it is
>>>not a how-to book, but a book about boosting reading confidence<<
>
>Ned again: The original question was from Sheila, who asked us what to do
>after her son asked her Will you teach me how to read? I thought, perhaps in
>my madness, that he wanted to learn HOW TO READ. I don't remember that
>Sheila was asking us for ways to boost his reading confidence, or to give
>him more motivation. Those are therapy. He did not need therapy. He wanted
>a skill.
>
>I have nothing against the book, but I have been laboring under the idea
>that the discussion is about HOW-TO, not *Gee, reading sure is fun if you
>can just somehow get the hang of it.* He needs the hang of it. He's got a
>sister for goodness sake. ?) that's a wink, my new keyboard discovery
>
>Ned Vare
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>
>As for the 6 ways to read:
>1. Getting help from pictures
>2. Remembering
>3.Sounding out letters
>4.Expecting what comes next
>5.Writing
>6.Making sense
>
>Of course, it explains these but if I write all of it I might as well
>charge y'all for transcribing the book. It costs $7.99 and it is a
>great resource. Public libraries may have hardcover version.

Another point. Good readers use all or most of those 6 ways at various
times. Poor readers restrict themselves to one or two. My friend has a
boy (schooled) who can decode perfectly all day. But he doesn't *get* what
he has read. What he's mastered is the mechanics of phonics and decoding
words, and it hasn't turned him into a reader. *Now* they're getting him
working on the other 5 ways.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island