[email protected]

In a message dated 7/20/02 7:25:52 AM, danidawn@... writes:
<<(I know no one here would bash
my theories for sharing them, right???? You seem Waaaayyyyyy too nice and
supportive for that!)>>

I hope you don't consider commentary "bashing." I don't think you presented
any theories, anyway--just described current practices and asked whether they
jibe with unschooling theories.

<< It's nothing major, just encourages her to
spread her learning between the computer, educational tv, fiction and
non-fiction, and even a little seatwork. >>

I think it's the "seatwork" that kills it.

Requiring reading of ANY sort can end up being a dead-end road too, and some
kids will never back out of that, but just decide they don't see reading as a
desirable thing, but as a measurable "good for you" thing.

"Seatwork" is SO wholly a school-term it can't exist in the real school-free
world.

All the school you keep, no matter how subtle it is, takes up valuable space
that could be filled by natural learning.

<<*I'm VERY flexible on this. She
gets to pick the workbook, etc.>>

But... but...

It's still a "WORK"book. "Work" meaning what? Schoolwork.
"Work" to learn.

Play to learn will lead to a lifetime of joy, but workbooks will teach
children to avoid certain things, or to identify some things as "educational"
and others as something (various things) else.

"Flexibility" about which half hour she has to "do workbooks" is still within
a school model.

[IMPERFECT ANALOGY ALERT: Giving a kid a choice about when and where with
what implement to get a spanking with is still spanking.]

<<Once we're 'back in the groove' (all her
neighbor friends are back to school) she has to be doing something
'eduationally productive' between 9 (like she gets up that early...LOL) and
2ish...>>

Once you really get unschooling, you'll see 24 hours a day as "educationally
productive." Until you try, that separation will keep learning from flowing.

<<if she can explain to me why playing with LEGOS is educational>>

Why should SHE have to do that? Why can't you? And if you can explain that
to yourself (don't tell her, it will only make her selfconscious and add to
that separation of learning from life), why can't you figure out all the
other opportunities for learning?

<<But I allow no junk TV or
Gameboy/Nintendo/PlayStation, etc. until after 2...does this sound like some
sort of unschooling? Or am I way off???>>

I think it's way off, because I think the central tenet of unschooling is
that learning should not be separate from life, and the children can learn
from EVERYTHING.

To separate life into "productive" and "after 2:00" will create a desire for
TV and gaming systems that you probably do NOT want to create and don't mean
to create.

Kids who really want to eat sugar and ice cream and such when they visit me
are invariably those kids who have to "clean their plates" or wait until a
certain time by the clock to "eat junk." My kids don't even have the concept
of "junk," we never "have dessert," and so sweets are no bigger deal to them
than any other food.

Same with TV.

Same with video games.

They have all they want, which ends up being way less than most people would
predict they would want if it were unlimited. But until it's unlimited they
cannot possibly self-regulate.

And there are critics of this belief of mine, but for our family and many
others it has proven golden: Freedom to sample the world in the company of
parents, including all kinds of TV and videos and games and goofy activities,
will lead children to calm, well-rounded lives more quickly than ANY
schoolish "work" ever, ever in a million years could do.

Do you have 185 days a year in which you don't expect learning to happen
spontaneously and happily? That's not how unschooling works. So having days
when you DO expect to see learning is the school-schedule you can abandon,
and need to abandon if you want life to start to flow through and around you
unimpeded.


Sandra

Leslie Avery

Dani,

I have been homeschooling for about 4 years and very
much believe in unschooling, and I know it is the very
best thing for kids. But I had a hard time letting go
of the workbook, and what was "real" learning and what
wasn't. I had read all of the unschooling books and
the John Holt books, and while I agreed 100% with
everything they said, I couldn't get over the hurdle.
I picked up a book that really put it all together for
me. Awakening your Child's Natural Genius by Thomas
Armstrong kind of gave me a formula if you will on the
whole learning is everyday belief. I keep a journal,
just because I like to, about what my kids do, and I
am utterly amazed at how much they are learning and
our discussions in the car range from how important
water and air are to us (SCIENCE) to how many TV shows
do you think run in a 24 hour period (MATH) to
listening to the golden oldies and asking who Elvis
Presley was (MUSIC APPRECIATION). It also showed me
how arrogant it is of us to think that chidren need
teachers to learn. I don't believe God or whatever
your believe system is would put us here without a
natural ability to learn on our own. It is up to us
just to be their guide and to encourage their love of
learning not kill it.

Leslie

Leslie
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/20/02 7:25:52 AM,
> danidawn@... writes:
> <<(I know no one here would bash
> my theories for sharing them, right???? You seem
> Waaaayyyyyy too nice and
> supportive for that!)>>
>
> I hope you don't consider commentary "bashing." I
> don't think you presented
> any theories, anyway--just described current
> practices and asked whether they
> jibe with unschooling theories.
>
> << It's nothing major, just encourages her to
> spread her learning between the computer,
> educational tv, fiction and
> non-fiction, and even a little seatwork. >>
>
> I think it's the "seatwork" that kills it.
>
> Requiring reading of ANY sort can end up being a
> dead-end road too, and some
> kids will never back out of that, but just decide
> they don't see reading as a
> desirable thing, but as a measurable "good for you"
> thing.
>
> "Seatwork" is SO wholly a school-term it can't exist
> in the real school-free
> world.
>
> All the school you keep, no matter how subtle it is,
> takes up valuable space
> that could be filled by natural learning.
>
> <<*I'm VERY flexible on this. She
> gets to pick the workbook, etc.>>
>
> But... but...
>
> It's still a "WORK"book. "Work" meaning what?
> Schoolwork.
> "Work" to learn.
>
> Play to learn will lead to a lifetime of joy, but
> workbooks will teach
> children to avoid certain things, or to identify
> some things as "educational"
> and others as something (various things) else.
>
> "Flexibility" about which half hour she has to "do
> workbooks" is still within
> a school model.
>
> [IMPERFECT ANALOGY ALERT: Giving a kid a choice
> about when and where with
> what implement to get a spanking with is still
> spanking.]
>
> <<Once we're 'back in the groove' (all her
> neighbor friends are back to school) she has to be
> doing something
> 'eduationally productive' between 9 (like she gets
> up that early...LOL) and
> 2ish...>>
>
> Once you really get unschooling, you'll see 24 hours
> a day as "educationally
> productive." Until you try, that separation will
> keep learning from flowing.
>
> <<if she can explain to me why playing with LEGOS is
> educational>>
>
> Why should SHE have to do that? Why can't you? And
> if you can explain that
> to yourself (don't tell her, it will only make her
> selfconscious and add to
> that separation of learning from life), why can't
> you figure out all the
> other opportunities for learning?
>
> <<But I allow no junk TV or
> Gameboy/Nintendo/PlayStation, etc. until after
> 2...does this sound like some
> sort of unschooling? Or am I way off???>>
>
> I think it's way off, because I think the central
> tenet of unschooling is
> that learning should not be separate from life, and
> the children can learn
> from EVERYTHING.
>
> To separate life into "productive" and "after 2:00"
> will create a desire for
> TV and gaming systems that you probably do NOT want
> to create and don't mean
> to create.
>
> Kids who really want to eat sugar and ice cream and
> such when they visit me
> are invariably those kids who have to "clean their
> plates" or wait until a
> certain time by the clock to "eat junk." My kids
> don't even have the concept
> of "junk," we never "have dessert," and so sweets
> are no bigger deal to them
> than any other food.
>
> Same with TV.
>
> Same with video games.
>
> They have all they want, which ends up being way
> less than most people would
> predict they would want if it were unlimited. But
> until it's unlimited they
> cannot possibly self-regulate.
>
> And there are critics of this belief of mine, but
> for our family and many
> others it has proven golden: Freedom to sample the
> world in the company of
> parents, including all kinds of TV and videos and
> games and goofy activities,
> will lead children to calm, well-rounded lives more
> quickly than ANY
> schoolish "work" ever, ever in a million years could
> do.
>
> Do you have 185 days a year in which you don't
> expect learning to happen
> spontaneously and happily? That's not how
> unschooling works. So having days
> when you DO expect to see learning is the
> school-schedule you can abandon,
> and need to abandon if you want life to start to
> flow through and around you
> unimpeded.
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

danidawn3345

> I hope you don't consider commentary "bashing." I don't think you
presented
> any theories, anyway--just described current practices and asked
whether they
> jibe with unschooling theories.

Commentary, no, I wouldn't see it as bashing. I'm here, after all to
learn and share, and have long since learned that there's no
perfect 'box' for life and that although I might share many of the
same practices and philosophies, that we don't all have to do it
exactly the same way....what fun would that be? As long as I don't
hear, "I can't believe you MAKE your kids do...." LOL
>
> << It's nothing major, just encourages her to
> spread her learning between the computer, educational tv, fiction
and
> non-fiction, and even a little seatwork. >>
>
> I think it's the "seatwork" that kills it.
>
> Requiring reading of ANY sort can end up being a dead-end road too,
and some
> kids will never back out of that, but just decide they don't see
reading as a
> desirable thing, but as a measurable "good for you" thing.
>
> "Seatwork" is SO wholly a school-term it can't exist in the real
school-free
> world.

Okay, so is the general concensus that there is *no* value in
workbook style activities? What if my kids enjoy them? They don't
complain or growl at all about doing them, and seem to enjoy the
learning (albeit in a 'schooly' way) they get from them. (Notice I
said 'learning they get' not 'what they are taught.') Lilly, who is
4 is having a ball right now with some scissor skills workbooks. I
realize she could gain the same skills from cutting magazines and
newspapers, blank paper, etc., but she found them and has been
cutting the stuffing out of them...

>
> All the school you keep, no matter how subtle it is, takes up
valuable space
> that could be filled by natural learning.
>
> <<*I'm VERY flexible on this. She
> gets to pick the workbook, etc.>>
>
> But... but...
>
> It's still a "WORK"book. "Work" meaning what? Schoolwork.
> "Work" to learn.
>
> Play to learn will lead to a lifetime of joy, but workbooks will
teach
> children to avoid certain things, or to identify some things
as "educational"
> and others as something (various things) else.
>
> "Flexibility" about which half hour she has to "do workbooks" is
still within
> a school model.
>
> [IMPERFECT ANALOGY ALERT: Giving a kid a choice about when and
where with
> what implement to get a spanking with is still spanking.]
>

I won't say I disagree, I'll just say I see it a little differently.
I don't believe it's a school model (goodness knows that I've never
heard a teacher say, "Hey Iz, sometime today I'd like you to make a
little time to read whatever you want....") just somewhat of a plan
to keep ourselves remembering all the ways we love to learn.

> <<Once we're 'back in the groove' (all her
> neighbor friends are back to school) she has to be doing something
> 'eduationally productive' between 9 (like she gets up that
early...LOL) and
> 2ish...>>
>
> Once you really get unschooling, you'll see 24 hours a day
as "educationally
> productive." Until you try, that separation will keep learning
from flowing.
>
I see that already...we went to a kickoff for summer reading at the
library, and Ronald McDonald told the kids, "Raise your hands if
you're enjoying your summer vacation." Iz and her friend Nat looked
at each other like he'd come from Mars. We learn year round, and
more times than not 'most productively' at hours most parents would
find inappropriate (mid-late evenings - my kids are night owls.) Our
hs groups meet for park days and LIFE classes throughout the
year...we see no need for some arbitrary and unnecessary calendar to
direct our learning!!!! I just like to keep her on her toes as to
how her play is also educational. (Education does not equal a dirty
word in our home, it's actually treasured and appreciated, so there's
no negative connotation with learning and playing at the same time.)

> <<if she can explain to me why playing with LEGOS is educational>>
>
> Why should SHE have to do that? Why can't you? And if you can
explain that
> to yourself (don't tell her, it will only make her selfconscious
and add to
> that separation of learning from life), why can't you figure out
all the
> other opportunities for learning?
>
I can do it too (the other hs moms are sometimes amazed at the skills
I can pull from activities for our hs logs...comes from the formal
education in education...but I try to forget most of it except what's
relevant to my kids...LOL)...but I think its a good life lesson to
analyze the benefits of activities...although it's contrived, it's
still productive to me...

> <<But I allow no junk TV or
> Gameboy/Nintendo/PlayStation, etc. until after 2...does this sound
like some
> sort of unschooling? Or am I way off???>>
>
> I think it's way off, because I think the central tenet of
unschooling is
> that learning should not be separate from life, and the children
can learn
> from EVERYTHING.
>
I agree with this 'mostly.' I do see the educational benefits from
video games and non-educationally intended tv shows (shhh..don't tell
her that) but I have a hard time setting NO limits...I think that
learning happens in everyday life, but too much of any one thing in
my mind cannot be productive...

> To separate life into "productive" and "after 2:00" will create a
desire for
> TV and gaming systems that you probably do NOT want to create and
don't mean
> to create.

Acutally, we've been doing this approach for a few years now, and it
really doesn't...it just serves as a guideline. I'm not worried
about her turning into a video junkie...I know she would eventually
tire...
>
> Kids who really want to eat sugar and ice cream and such when they
visit me
> are invariably those kids who have to "clean their plates" or wait
until a
> certain time by the clock to "eat junk." My kids don't even have
the concept
> of "junk," we never "have dessert," and so sweets are no bigger
deal to them
> than any other food.
>
> Same with TV.
>
> Same with video games.
>
> They have all they want, which ends up being way less than most
people would
> predict they would want if it were unlimited. But until it's
unlimited they
> cannot possibly self-regulate.
>
> And there are critics of this belief of mine, but for our family
and many
> others it has proven golden: Freedom to sample the world in the
company of
> parents, including all kinds of TV and videos and games and goofy
activities,
> will lead children to calm, well-rounded lives more quickly than
ANY
> schoolish "work" ever, ever in a million years could do.

Oh, I fully agree...Izzy's watches many movies some would
believe 'unsuitable' for a 9yo...we just watched 'Red Planet' and she
can get the fact that it's a story from someones imagination, but it
still naturally brings up some scientific discovery ("Is there really
ice storms on Mars?, etc.)
>
> Do you have 185 days a year in which you don't expect learning to
happen
> spontaneously and happily?

Uh-uh, no way! Like I said before, we learn, play and explore year
round. We 'learn' as much on Saturdays (right now Izzy's watching
Crocodile Hunter and Lilly's using colored markers to color some
leftover apple worksheets from our last LIFE class...no one asked her
to...she just gravitates toward it naturally.....) as we do on M-F.
Sometimes more, of course!

>That's not how unschooling works. So having days
> when you DO expect to see learning is the school-schedule you can
abandon,
> and need to abandon if you want life to start to flow through and
around you
> unimpeded.
>

I expect us all to learn something EVERY day...even if it's just how
to relax!!!


Thanks for the input and the food for thought!

~Dani

Betsy

**"Seatwork" is SO wholly a school-term it can't exist in the real
school-free world. **

The term tends to make me giggle, because it seems to imply that the
part of the body that you sit on is what's doing all the work.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/20/02 11:42:10 AM, danidawn@... writes:

<< Okay, so is the general concensus that there is *no* value in
workbook style activities? What if my kids enjoy them? >>

My opinion is that requiring a half an hour of something is not conducive to
enjoyment of it, or to seeing whether the children would choose that. My
kids have owned workbooks. They're kept with coloring books, and used for
fun. No value above enjoyment is placed on them. They can do them in
whatever order they want, however they want, or not at all. Same with
coloring books.

I enjoyed school, when I was in school. That didn't make it unschooling.

<<I just like to keep her on her toes as to
how her play is also educational. (Education does not equal a dirty
word in our home, it's actually treasured and appreciated, so there's
no negative connotation with learning and playing at the same time.)
>>

If you save the paragraph above somewhere for a year or three and read it
again then, I bet you'll see a change in thinking as you get more into
natural learning.

<<but I think its a good life lesson to
analyze the benefits of activities...although it's contrived, it's
still productive to me...>>

They you should do it! Your children shouldn't need to do what you consider
productive "to you," but what seems productive to them.

<<I do see the educational benefits from
video games and non-educationally intended tv shows (shhh..don't tell
her that) >>

Why not? If you're into having her analyze lego-play, why would you want to
keep secrets about what you believe can help her learn?

<but I have a hard time setting NO limits...I think that
learning happens in everyday life, but too much of any one thing in
my mind cannot be productive...>>

It's not in your mind--it's in their world.

The benefit of setting limits is often no more than for parents to feel like
they're doing a good job at being parents. If your philosophy changes, your
practice probably will too. Or you could change your practice first and the
philosophy could follow after. But setting limits for the sake of doing so
isn't beneficial to anyone, really.

Dani, I think you're just about there, you just have a collection of
"shoulds" and "goods" which are taking storage space in your head and on your
schedule. I hope soon you can let them go!

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/20/02 11:54:07 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< **"Seatwork" is SO wholly a school-term it can't exist in the real
school-free world. **

The term tends to make me giggle, because it seems to imply that the
part of the body that you sit on is what's doing all the work.
>>

Butt let's get to the BOTTOM of this. Why would you ASSume such a thing?
You don't want kids to get BEHIND in their "work" do you?

Sandra

[email protected]

Sandra **"Seatwork" is SO wholly a school-term it can't exist in the real
school-free world. **

Betsy **The term tends to make me giggle, because it seems to imply that
the part of the body that you sit on is what's doing all the work.**

My youngest son, 10 in May, has just recently become capable of being
(mostly) still and thinking at the same time. When he was much younger he
used to really like thinking about numbers while standing on his head, which
was the closest he ever got to "sitting still" (he even bounced in his
sleep). It's one of the reasons I am eternally grateful that we were already
unschoolers when he was born. Nobody here cares (mostly) if he paces or rocks
or taps or bounces while he talks and ponders, and we didn't put him into
situations where people did care until he grew enough to handle them.

It would be "work" enough for him to be still in the seat. :)

Not that that kept him from workbooks when he wanted - he'd roll around on
the floor. <g>

Deborah in IL

zenmomma *

>>Okay, so is the general concensus that there is *no* value in
workbook style activities? What if my kids enjoy them? They don't
complain or growl at all about doing them, and seem to enjoy the
learning (albeit in a 'schooly' way) they get from them. >>

So what would happen if you no longer required or suggested that they do
them? My guess is that, like my own daughter, they'd pick them up on
occassion and do a few pages. But they also might not choose to do one for
months at a stretch. Or they might stop in the middle of a page to move onto
something else that catches their interest. The workbooks might lead to
jumprope, might lead to writing a letter to a friend, might lead to rock
hunting, might lead to...

For my kids, workbooks are available just as another resource. Thy're no
more important than any other item cluttering up my closets.

Life is good.
~Mary







_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com