Deb

As a lover of the English language, as well as kids and learning, I have
to jump into this one. Philosophically, I agree with what Mary said very
well:

>>Teaching to me is a role we all play. Learning is a growth process. My son
loves to teach me how to scooter. He shows me how to put on a helmet, to
raise
my handle bars, to start and stop. He shows me just how to go off a
curb, to
twirl and pop wheelies. I know these things already. I have learned
them. He
gets great joy showing me all the fine details he himself has learned.
He is
practicing being an expert and someone who can explain an activity to
another
person. We all learn, we all get taught things from others and we all
teach
when asked. A goal of unschooling my kids is to show them to believe in
themselves and everyone they interact with. We all have something
valuable to
share. I hope they learn this.
Mary >>>>


My kids and myself, we all think we "learn" things even more deeply when
we try to explain it or show it to someone else so they can enjoy it or
do it or understand what we mean, too. And it is a natural human process
that works both ways. Only with a structured school society does
teaching mean from adult "person with the power" to child and not vice
versa. I would sorely miss it if I didn't have the chance to learn
things from my kids and other kids. And they have fun teaching me. It is
delightful as each person has their own unique viewpoint and insights.
Sadly that is what we lose when "mass teaching" occurs. THe information
and ideas flow only in one direction and that always will jam up and
build resistance, or sheep, eventually.


Words may have one connotation to one person and a different connotation
to another person. Both are valid as connotations. Since "raise
yourself' cannot be said any other way by the structure of Spanish,
talking about whether it was done with enforcement and domination were
used or a laissez faire attitude that encouraged self-discovery, the
differentiation between these would have to be made using other words. I
understand Liza's response that "teaching yourself" is a good thing.

>I understand you meant to point out the philosophical difference
>between *teach* and *learn*. Nevertheless, I particularly like the
>authority reversal of my kids being their own teachers as opposed to
>somebody else.

When I first read this thread, I thought to myself "oh, teach oneself"
would be better than just "learning" as to me it emphasizes that concept
that I decide WHAT and HOW and HOW MUCH I learn. Whereas "learning" to
me implies "following a track or furrow" (that someone else put there)
since that is its derivation. My parents used to ask me what I was
"learning" in school or if I had or hadn't "learned" something
worthwhile when doing a thing. So to me that word has had less of an
"infinite possibilities" connotation. I can see both views of it, and it
can have both of these ideas.

Looking at the development and meanings of the words one can see that it
really isn't fixed one way or the other, and just depends on which
meaning you choose to use. So a discussion of ways to relate to your
kids and how they relate to the world and things they are learning may
be more helpful to expand someone's understanding of how to do
unschooling than limiting the meaning of a word to one connotation. I
appreciate finding out someone's idea of it, but if I think "learning"
is going down a furrow made by others, and you tell me that that is the
best thing to do, it might come out different for me than what you had
in mind at all. Clarifying what each person is trying to say without
limiting the words may be most helpful.

The roots of the word "teach" go way back before an "enforced school"
situation was entrenched in our society (and I myself have been so far
away from the established schools and that mindset for so long that I
forgot that it could be the only way some see "teaching"). The roots of
"teach" go ultimately back to "to show" in Proto-Germanic. (Warning: I
love languages, the roots of our English language, and learning about
the mindsets demonstrated by different words and languages. I personally
keep pursuing knowledge in this field. You can stop reading at this
point if you wish to avoid this!) "Teach" is also related to "token"
which, before it came to be used for a "stamped metal piece" in about
1598, meant a sign, evidence, symbol, wonder, miracle (as in Beowulf,
725 AD). Not too pedantic or dry a word. IT was the showing of something
special, perhaps miracles! A demonstration of perhaps supernatural
ability -- and my kids can teach me the miracle of their viewpoints
anytime! So can any person actually - everyone here in fact. (I
appreciate it when it is miraculous!;))

Definitions of "teach" from the Encarta World English Dictionary
include:

1.verb transitive - To impart knowledge or skill to somebody by
instruction or example. (Hmm... example is good; I learn by example all
the time and my kids wanted to see others with skill perform whenever
available. we went to rodeos, theatrical shows, pizza flipping
demonstrations, Russian speaking people, animal training shows,
storytelling concerts, etc, etc including any kind of good
puzzle-solvers and thinkers too.)

2. verb intransitive - to give lessons in a subject, or to give lessons
to a person or animal (yucckk! This sounds like the lessons are given
whether the person or "animal" wishes it or not or has anything useful
he wants to do with it or not).

3.verb transitive - To bring understanding to somebody, especially
through an experience. (Yeah, we like experiences form which we learn
something, or we each us something. DOn't want to waste time with
experiences which don't teach us something useful or enjoyable.)

4. verb intransitive -To engage in imparting knowledge or instruction
for a period of time in a particular place " he teaches college".


I'd like to say that receiving input is valid as a learning process. I
don't appreciate programmed enforced teaching, but as Mary said there is
teaching going on all the time. The word doesn't intrinsically mean to
dominate or enforce something. If our kids have never been in a school
or not for a long long time, why keep that connotation of the word? If
it means that for you, it does. If it means other things to you, that's
valid too. And the way, the spirit in which you do it is more important
than the term. Wouldn't you let your child go visit with a grandparent
who is an awesome fisherman who'll teach him stuff about fishing if he
wants to learn it? Or would he have to figure it all out for himself
without any help or input, even if he wanted to go with Grandpa?

A brief linguistic 'treatise' on "learn" - "Learn" is used both as an
intransitive verb and a transitive verb in the dictionary.

1. verb intransitive - To come to know something, acquire knowledge of a
subject or skill through education or experience. (I am learning to
play piano or I am learning all the time.)

2. verb intransitive - To gain information about somebody or something.
(I just learned that Jim is arriving tomorrow.)

3. verb transitive - To memorize something, e.g., facts, poem, a piece
of music, or a dance. (I learned the hokey-pokey.)

4. verb intransitive - To teach somebody something (non-standard). (A
la Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn: "He learned me how to write.")

And "learned" means "well-educated and very knowledgeable".

Note: The Encarta World Dictionary also says that the underlying idea of
"learn" from its derivation "track" is to "follow a course of
instruction". "Learn" comes also from Proto-Germanic root, the same root
that formed into the Modern German words "lernen" meaning to study or
learn and "lehre" meaning rule, doctrine, system, science, lesson,
warning,and as a verb - to teach, instruct or show. And "Lehrer" meaning
teacher, master, boss and related words.

So, it depends really on you are trying to express, rather than one word
meaning inherently what you are trying to say and another always
expressing something else, not as good, by definition. DOn't expect all
others to share your connotations. This discussion is so valuable
because we all are trying to handle our own circumstances and can ask
questions and share ideas and experiences that can give others new
insights. But I wouldn't say one word or the other inherently mean "the
bad" thing to do. I'm new to this list and maybe ai am stepping on toes
here of people I don't even know. It seemed like an interesting
discussion and I hope what I have added to it isn't distasteful. I
really hate schools, public schools in particular, and the warehousing
of kids. THe teacher texts I have seen are so full of psychology terms
like "operand and operand", it is a no wonder that trained teachers
haven't a clue what they are doing. But I have always enjoyed learning
from an insightful friendly individual who knows more than I do in an
area I am interested in. I don't think kids' learning is really much
different than that. There's some learning you do on your own and some
you do with others..... Man is a social being who likes to live in
groups.

Which brings me to comment on the Sunday school teacher who thought the
boy needed to be like the other kids ......... what an idiot. 'Nuff
said. Is your son getting enough out of the Sunday school class in his
opinion to be worth the negative aspects of the class and teacher?
Sometimes there is enough to put up with the junk. If not, is there an
alternative to satisfy your family's reasons for taking the class?

It seems to me that people are talking about unschooling meaning letting
your child learn what and as he wants without limiting him (or her) to
learning what and how someone else wants him to. Is that right? And we
as parents learning to let go and not interfering with that.

>
> > this is something I'm really trying to grip myself! Granted, we have only been unschooling for a very short while, but the more we do, the more dh relaxes, and the better things flow (I'm the one whose dh really wanted a school-at-home atmosphere). But I'm still running into all kinds of unexpected snags, even though I am a staunch supporter of all the things you've mentioned above. I am continually berating myself for not unschooling properly!>>>>


It seems to me that "learning to work with a group" would be a normal
desired part of anyone's growing up, - such as learning to sail with a
crew, learning to play baseball as a team, learning to exchange things
of value with others and work together on a project or business,
learning to get along as a family and contribute to its survival. On
other hand, this society is so far off the rails with control by
power-hungry people and psychological tools employed to achieve that,
and just general personal aberration, that we do have to be wary of
putting our kids in group situations where someone who doesn't respect
the rights of others may have undue influence. "Teaching" our kids that
character in the face of pressure matters, that we can maintain our
individuality and survival and how some have succeeded in that, and how
to approach interpersonal problems when one decides to stay in a group
where there are some (pretty much any human group!) - those are all
things to discuss with our kids as they get older especially. And hold
up some good examples, or read some good stories where characters dealt
with such things for ideas of what people do.

To me the actual learning of things a kid wants to do is pretty easy and
natural. It's where we come head to head with others and how to sort
that out and manage to survive as individuals and also as a groups, and
as mankind all together, that is the trick ....
I let my daughter just stay home so she wouldn't have to deal with a
lot of *** so young. BUt as the kids get a little older, there it is to
handle. They'll form our society when we are old, and let's hope we've
helped them do better for themselves, and for us as a whole race.

oh my gosh! I am on a mountain-high soapbox and don't know how to get
down..!! Help!

Debbie R.



--
Director, Live Oak Academy
Visit our website http://www.newhealth.net/liveoak/

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In a message dated 7/7/02 1:05:02 PM, herbtea@... writes:

<< Whereas "learning" to
me implies "following a track or furrow" (that someone else put there)
since that is its derivation. >>

You can't just look at the Indo European roots and say the first one listed
is "its derivation. Under Germanic-to-English (in American Heritage) it
lists "lore" which is knowledge. That's the origin given in the Oxford
English Dictionary. And another type of meaning in the various
re-constructed Indo-European roots has to do with footprints or tracks in
THAT way--a path.

The origin of the word for "book" had to do with a stick, but when someone
uses the word book, it doesn't imply "stick."

Sandra