being better moms
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/02 11:17:12 AM, diamond_h2o@... writes:
<< I believe children sometimes need guidance whether
they actually learn from it is up to them, but if my son really
wants his bike or whatever he will need to learn to accept the rules
first. >>
Punishment isn't guidance. Be honest with yourself about what you're doing.
Just call it punishment.
<< If my son really wants to watch Dexter's lab on television
he will put his clothes in the laundry room >>
If he really wants to appease you he will do what you say.
This isn't learning why and how, it's learning what and when.
<< I guess I don't teach my kids I let them decide what is important
with hope they will see it the same way I do, but not necessarily
expecting that they will. >>
You're teaching your kids a lot, but maybe they will figure out other ways to
convey the ideas to their kids.
I not only expect that my kids will see things in the same kindly and
peaceful light I do, I KNOW they will. I know it from experience, and from
practice and intent to help make it that way. I have become confident over
the years that if I am right FIRST, and am really careful about my own
motivations, that we will have very little to argue about. Instead of
coming from wherever I am, right or wrong, and making them do what I say
(certainly what many parents around me do now and have in the past), I go to
where I want them to be (morally, socially, emotionally) and they gladly meet
me there.
I learned these ideas from moms whose kids were a little older than mine
were, and who were consciously and mindfully being the kinds of parents they
wished they themselves had had.
My kids and I are together, not separate. I don't mean physically, I mean in
purpose and direction. We all want for all of us to be happy, and at peace,
and not afraid. We want for all of us to be fed and safe and to have a good
place to sleep.
Can't you get to the stop sign first and stop and smile back at your kids
instead of getting their second with a threat? Or put him in charge of stop
sign safety.
Punishment breeds resentment. I don't think there's a way around that.
Sandra
<< I believe children sometimes need guidance whether
they actually learn from it is up to them, but if my son really
wants his bike or whatever he will need to learn to accept the rules
first. >>
Punishment isn't guidance. Be honest with yourself about what you're doing.
Just call it punishment.
<< If my son really wants to watch Dexter's lab on television
he will put his clothes in the laundry room >>
If he really wants to appease you he will do what you say.
This isn't learning why and how, it's learning what and when.
<< I guess I don't teach my kids I let them decide what is important
with hope they will see it the same way I do, but not necessarily
expecting that they will. >>
You're teaching your kids a lot, but maybe they will figure out other ways to
convey the ideas to their kids.
I not only expect that my kids will see things in the same kindly and
peaceful light I do, I KNOW they will. I know it from experience, and from
practice and intent to help make it that way. I have become confident over
the years that if I am right FIRST, and am really careful about my own
motivations, that we will have very little to argue about. Instead of
coming from wherever I am, right or wrong, and making them do what I say
(certainly what many parents around me do now and have in the past), I go to
where I want them to be (morally, socially, emotionally) and they gladly meet
me there.
I learned these ideas from moms whose kids were a little older than mine
were, and who were consciously and mindfully being the kinds of parents they
wished they themselves had had.
My kids and I are together, not separate. I don't mean physically, I mean in
purpose and direction. We all want for all of us to be happy, and at peace,
and not afraid. We want for all of us to be fed and safe and to have a good
place to sleep.
Can't you get to the stop sign first and stop and smile back at your kids
instead of getting their second with a threat? Or put him in charge of stop
sign safety.
Punishment breeds resentment. I don't think there's a way around that.
Sandra
diamond_h2o
Can't you get to the stop sign first and stop and smile back at your
kids
instead of getting their second with a threat? Or put him in charge
of stop
sign safety.
Have a 4 year old ride a 16" bike with training wheels and try to
stay next to him and watch for cars behind him and have a 7 year old
who rides a 24" bike and see who gets to the stop sign first. I
can't make one ride a smaller bike because he is much too big and
the little one is much too small to ride a bigger bike.
kids
instead of getting their second with a threat? Or put him in charge
of stop
sign safety.
Have a 4 year old ride a 16" bike with training wheels and try to
stay next to him and watch for cars behind him and have a 7 year old
who rides a 24" bike and see who gets to the stop sign first. I
can't make one ride a smaller bike because he is much too big and
the little one is much too small to ride a bigger bike.
Lewis
I really do not feel that it is "punishment" to tell your son or daughter
that they need to pick something up, or sweep the floor before they watch tv
or play with their legos.
Before we leave our home, I expect the house to be half way neat and clean.
So, I say "guys, lets to a quick pick-up before we leave so when we come
home we don't have to do it". If they don't want to, I say that it needs to
be done, and everyone will do their part.
Hey, I am right in there with them doing it. It would be one thing if I was
not doing the same thing. We do not make beds very often, mostly for
company, because to me, it just does not matter, and I personally love
getting into my bed when it has been the same since I got out of it.
However, on occasion, I feel it necessary to make beds. So, I tell them to
make their beds. If they don't, then there is a consequence. Again I do
not feel it is punishment.
On another note, I respect the decisions that my children have made. Such
as "Mom, could we just put all the "whatever", here in the living room from
now on, since we play with them all the time." I usually say "sure". As I
want them to respect decisions that I make, I also want to respect the
decisions that are really, really important to them. Our oldest, especially
likes to make some household rules, which I think is so cool. Sure, maybe
he learned that from me, and he is the oldest typical overly responsible
child, but his brothers like to say their concerns also.
We have "family meeting night". Not on a regular scheduled basis, but
whenever someone has something to say that would affect the whole family.
Anyone can call a family meeting. Sometimes it is to say "noone can put
their shoes on the front step cause we are all tripping over them", or "from
now on, I will pour my own cereal". Whatever is important to them.
I think it has to do with respect for one another.
One family meeting that we had went crazy! We sat down to discuss the
kitchen chores, and how everyone WANTS to help out. It was amazing the
things my kids thought of doing. Then, they decided on the consequences (of
their own accord) of not doing them. One was to not be able to use the
computer for one month. I had to get out the calendar and explain to my 5
1/2, 7 and 9 year olds how long that was for not clearing the table!
I just do not want to be a Mom stuck with doing ALL the work. I feel this
especially because I have three sons to gently guide into this world.
Family meetings are great. We speak ALL on the SAME level, discuss anything
we want, weighing the consequences.
My 7 year old likes to drag ALL his toys into the living room. Their room
is messy, ok it is completely TRASHED because that is the way I like it.
However, I want the living room to be clean, so I do not step on things and
I don't have to panic when we have an unexpected visitor. So, it was time
to pick up for the evening, and I told him to take his Bionicle collection
back to his room. He did not want to because "his room was too messy". I
said "ok, then what if you play in the LR because your room is too messy,
then when the living room is to messy, you have to play in the dining room,
etc......". He totlly cracked up laughing, and his brothers followed suit.
I think a lot of this discussion has to do with each individual family and
how they function. Also, what level of chaos a person can handle. I have
friends, good friends, that have totally trashed houses. I LOVE these
people. I enjoy my time with them at their homes or mine. However, I would
never be able to be at ease in my own home with such a mess. Believe me, I
am not a neat freak. There are two bike helmets sitting next to me on the
floor, a pair of balled up socks, a lamb stuffed anima., a newspaper picture
of spider man, some Bionicle pieces and a captain hook thing. It is fine
for now, but eventually I will ask the boys to put them away, and it will be
"before dinner", or "before a movie", or whatever.
Mind you I do this discipline with myself, as I am sure we all do. Haven't
you ever said in your mind that I will buy that new outfit when I loose
three pounds. Or, if I eat the ice cream today, I will not have some
tomorrow. Or, as soon as I finish this (knitting, scrapbooking, herb
garden, etc...) then I will buy that new (whatever>..).
I do this all the time, it is my own self discipline.
No, I am not trying to impose my own self discipline onto my children, but
if I am totally freaked out about the living room being a disaster area,
don't I have a right to tell them they need to pick everything up before
they get out the next game/turn on a movie/play on the computer or whatever?
I do not think it is disrespectful. In my case, I am talking about younger
children. Their rooms are their rooms. That is THEIR space. The living
room, dining room, kitchen, bathroom are COMMUNITY spaces, that deserve the
respect as set up in our family meetings.
Ok, I have been quiet with all this discussion, and I hope I worded it all
right.
Debbie
that they need to pick something up, or sweep the floor before they watch tv
or play with their legos.
Before we leave our home, I expect the house to be half way neat and clean.
So, I say "guys, lets to a quick pick-up before we leave so when we come
home we don't have to do it". If they don't want to, I say that it needs to
be done, and everyone will do their part.
Hey, I am right in there with them doing it. It would be one thing if I was
not doing the same thing. We do not make beds very often, mostly for
company, because to me, it just does not matter, and I personally love
getting into my bed when it has been the same since I got out of it.
However, on occasion, I feel it necessary to make beds. So, I tell them to
make their beds. If they don't, then there is a consequence. Again I do
not feel it is punishment.
On another note, I respect the decisions that my children have made. Such
as "Mom, could we just put all the "whatever", here in the living room from
now on, since we play with them all the time." I usually say "sure". As I
want them to respect decisions that I make, I also want to respect the
decisions that are really, really important to them. Our oldest, especially
likes to make some household rules, which I think is so cool. Sure, maybe
he learned that from me, and he is the oldest typical overly responsible
child, but his brothers like to say their concerns also.
We have "family meeting night". Not on a regular scheduled basis, but
whenever someone has something to say that would affect the whole family.
Anyone can call a family meeting. Sometimes it is to say "noone can put
their shoes on the front step cause we are all tripping over them", or "from
now on, I will pour my own cereal". Whatever is important to them.
I think it has to do with respect for one another.
One family meeting that we had went crazy! We sat down to discuss the
kitchen chores, and how everyone WANTS to help out. It was amazing the
things my kids thought of doing. Then, they decided on the consequences (of
their own accord) of not doing them. One was to not be able to use the
computer for one month. I had to get out the calendar and explain to my 5
1/2, 7 and 9 year olds how long that was for not clearing the table!
I just do not want to be a Mom stuck with doing ALL the work. I feel this
especially because I have three sons to gently guide into this world.
Family meetings are great. We speak ALL on the SAME level, discuss anything
we want, weighing the consequences.
My 7 year old likes to drag ALL his toys into the living room. Their room
is messy, ok it is completely TRASHED because that is the way I like it.
However, I want the living room to be clean, so I do not step on things and
I don't have to panic when we have an unexpected visitor. So, it was time
to pick up for the evening, and I told him to take his Bionicle collection
back to his room. He did not want to because "his room was too messy". I
said "ok, then what if you play in the LR because your room is too messy,
then when the living room is to messy, you have to play in the dining room,
etc......". He totlly cracked up laughing, and his brothers followed suit.
I think a lot of this discussion has to do with each individual family and
how they function. Also, what level of chaos a person can handle. I have
friends, good friends, that have totally trashed houses. I LOVE these
people. I enjoy my time with them at their homes or mine. However, I would
never be able to be at ease in my own home with such a mess. Believe me, I
am not a neat freak. There are two bike helmets sitting next to me on the
floor, a pair of balled up socks, a lamb stuffed anima., a newspaper picture
of spider man, some Bionicle pieces and a captain hook thing. It is fine
for now, but eventually I will ask the boys to put them away, and it will be
"before dinner", or "before a movie", or whatever.
Mind you I do this discipline with myself, as I am sure we all do. Haven't
you ever said in your mind that I will buy that new outfit when I loose
three pounds. Or, if I eat the ice cream today, I will not have some
tomorrow. Or, as soon as I finish this (knitting, scrapbooking, herb
garden, etc...) then I will buy that new (whatever>..).
I do this all the time, it is my own self discipline.
No, I am not trying to impose my own self discipline onto my children, but
if I am totally freaked out about the living room being a disaster area,
don't I have a right to tell them they need to pick everything up before
they get out the next game/turn on a movie/play on the computer or whatever?
I do not think it is disrespectful. In my case, I am talking about younger
children. Their rooms are their rooms. That is THEIR space. The living
room, dining room, kitchen, bathroom are COMMUNITY spaces, that deserve the
respect as set up in our family meetings.
Ok, I have been quiet with all this discussion, and I hope I worded it all
right.
Debbie
[email protected]
On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:06:50 -0700 "Lewis" <lapin@...> writes:
Here's dictionary.com, via google:
"Punish: To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault."
I get the feeling that sometimes people are uncomfortable with the word
"punishment", so they substitute the nicer-sounding and more impersonal
"consequence". It's just a euphemism. Any time you inflict a penalty -
grounding, no tv, a spanking, loss of toys, whatever - for something you
decide is an offense - walking in the street, not picking up toys, not
making beds, whatever - you are punishing.
table. The whole concept is just alien to our way of living.
logistical thing. If I decide to eat all the ice cream today then yep,
there won't be any tomorrow, unless we buy or make some tonight.
"Arrgggh! It's a mess in here! &^@%^&!!!" If I must scream, I try to go
outside and do it. Then I may pop my head into Rain's room and say,
"Could you come put away the My Little Ponies stuff when you get a
chance? Oh, and here's your stack of laundry." And I go back and start
cleaning up the living room, and - not because she's concerned about
being punished, but because she can see that I'm freaked out and wants to
help - 90% of the time Rain will come in within 10 minutes and clean up
the ponies, and maybe offer to do more. She's on my side, and I'm on her
side...
Dar
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> However, on occasion, I feel it necessary to make beds. So, I tellthem to
> make their beds. If they don't, then there is a consequence. Again Ido
> not feel it is punishment.How are you defining punishment?
Here's dictionary.com, via google:
"Punish: To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault."
I get the feeling that sometimes people are uncomfortable with the word
"punishment", so they substitute the nicer-sounding and more impersonal
"consequence". It's just a euphemism. Any time you inflict a penalty -
grounding, no tv, a spanking, loss of toys, whatever - for something you
decide is an offense - walking in the street, not picking up toys, not
making beds, whatever - you are punishing.
> Then, they decided on the consequences (ofMy daughter would never even consider a punishment for not clearing the
> their own accord) of not doing them
>
table. The whole concept is just alien to our way of living.
> Mind you I do this discipline with myself, as I am sure we all do.Haven't
> you ever said in your mind that I will buy that new outfit when Iloose
> three pounds. Or, if I eat the ice cream today, I will not haveI don't do this. Or, at least, I don't do it as a bribe-thing, more as a
> some tomorrow. Or, as soon as I finish this (knitting, scrapbooking,
> herb garden, etc...) then I will buy that new (whatever>..).
> I do this all the time, it is my own self discipline.
logistical thing. If I decide to eat all the ice cream today then yep,
there won't be any tomorrow, unless we buy or make some tonight.
>but
> No, I am not trying to impose my own self discipline onto my children,
> if I am totally freaked out about the living room being a disasterarea,
> don't I have a right to tell them they need to pick everything upbefore
> they get out the next game/turn on a movie/play on the computer orWhen I get totally freaked out over the mess in the living room I say,
> whatever?
"Arrgggh! It's a mess in here! &^@%^&!!!" If I must scream, I try to go
outside and do it. Then I may pop my head into Rain's room and say,
"Could you come put away the My Little Ponies stuff when you get a
chance? Oh, and here's your stack of laundry." And I go back and start
cleaning up the living room, and - not because she's concerned about
being punished, but because she can see that I'm freaked out and wants to
help - 90% of the time Rain will come in within 10 minutes and clean up
the ponies, and maybe offer to do more. She's on my side, and I'm on her
side...
Dar
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/02 5:54:12 PM, lapin@... writes:
<< I really do not feel that it is "punishment" to tell your son or daughter
that they need to pick something up, or sweep the floor before they watch tv
or play with their legos. >>
It is if you say "You didn't get your socks in the laundry, so you can't
watch your favorite show tomorrow."
<Hey, I am right in there with them doing it. >>
That's the difference.
<<I think it has to do with respect for one another.>>
Me too.
Unfortunately that doesn't mean the same to everyone who uses it. There are
people who say "I respect my children so much I will force them to go to
school, play soccer and learn piano whether they want to or not." Or "I
respect my children so I spank them if they're bad."
Behaviors are easier to discuss than thought and intent are.
Sandra
<< I really do not feel that it is "punishment" to tell your son or daughter
that they need to pick something up, or sweep the floor before they watch tv
or play with their legos. >>
It is if you say "You didn't get your socks in the laundry, so you can't
watch your favorite show tomorrow."
<Hey, I am right in there with them doing it. >>
That's the difference.
<<I think it has to do with respect for one another.>>
Me too.
Unfortunately that doesn't mean the same to everyone who uses it. There are
people who say "I respect my children so much I will force them to go to
school, play soccer and learn piano whether they want to or not." Or "I
respect my children so I spank them if they're bad."
Behaviors are easier to discuss than thought and intent are.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/02 10:25:38 PM, lapin@... writes:
<< <<It is if you say "You didn't get your socks in the laundry, so you can't
watch your favorite show tomorrow.">>
<<But, you misunderstood...... >>
No, I understood. I was agreeing with you. I was saying someone ELSE
(someone you seemed to be trying to defend) WAS creating a punishment with TV.
Sandra
<< <<It is if you say "You didn't get your socks in the laundry, so you can't
watch your favorite show tomorrow.">>
<<But, you misunderstood...... >>
No, I understood. I was agreeing with you. I was saying someone ELSE
(someone you seemed to be trying to defend) WAS creating a punishment with TV.
Sandra
Lewis
<< I really do not feel that it is "punishment" to tell your son or daughter
that they need to pick something up, or sweep the floor before they watch tv
or play with their legos. >>
<<It is if you say "You didn't get your socks in the laundry, so you can't
watch your favorite show tomorrow.">>
But, you misunderstood.......I tell them, they need to pick up the toys
FIRST and THEN they may watch tv.
If they don't do it, then I remind them, what we have to do FIRST, in order
to what they want to do next.
So, it is not a punishment, maybe a consequence, but I do not at all relay
it as being negative, just a matter of fact thing to do. It hardly ever
happens that they do not do what they need to do in order to do what they
are wanting to do. Occasionally it does happen, and we talk about how it
could of been different in a loving and rational way, then we change the
subject and find something else fun to do when the project is done. Often I
share stories of my childhood with them, and they think it is so funny that
"Mom used to be just like us".
Believe me, I have tried other approaches, and keeping positive, with lots
of dialoge always works best for us. Yes, there are times things don't get
done as much as I would of liked, as long as they make their best effort, I
am fine with it. Again, the only rooms in the house I worry about are the
common rooms, living room, dining room, kitchen. I take care of the main
bathroom, because well, they are all boys, and they MISS all the time, and I
don't want them getting sick.......They can take over when they are much
older.
Debbie
that they need to pick something up, or sweep the floor before they watch tv
or play with their legos. >>
<<It is if you say "You didn't get your socks in the laundry, so you can't
watch your favorite show tomorrow.">>
But, you misunderstood.......I tell them, they need to pick up the toys
FIRST and THEN they may watch tv.
If they don't do it, then I remind them, what we have to do FIRST, in order
to what they want to do next.
So, it is not a punishment, maybe a consequence, but I do not at all relay
it as being negative, just a matter of fact thing to do. It hardly ever
happens that they do not do what they need to do in order to do what they
are wanting to do. Occasionally it does happen, and we talk about how it
could of been different in a loving and rational way, then we change the
subject and find something else fun to do when the project is done. Often I
share stories of my childhood with them, and they think it is so funny that
"Mom used to be just like us".
Believe me, I have tried other approaches, and keeping positive, with lots
of dialoge always works best for us. Yes, there are times things don't get
done as much as I would of liked, as long as they make their best effort, I
am fine with it. Again, the only rooms in the house I worry about are the
common rooms, living room, dining room, kitchen. I take care of the main
bathroom, because well, they are all boys, and they MISS all the time, and I
don't want them getting sick.......They can take over when they are much
older.
Debbie
Lewis
<<When I get totally freaked out over the mess in the living room I say,
"Arrgggh! It's a mess in here! &^@%^&!!!" If I must scream, I try to go
outside and do it. Then I may pop my head into Rain's room and say,
"Could you come put away the My Little Ponies stuff when you get a
chance? Oh, and here's your stack of laundry." And I go back and start
cleaning up the living room, and - not because she's concerned about
being punished, but because she can see that I'm freaked out and wants to
help - 90% of the time Rain will come in within 10 minutes and clean up
the ponies, and maybe offer to do more. She's on my side, and I'm on her
side...>>
Man, when I express frustration over the messy living room, my 9 year old
would automatically take over and clean the WHOLE thing all by himself. His
little brothers would simply WATCH! AAAHHHHH!! This is why I do the "when
the living room is clean, you can all go outside", etc..... I think with
multiple children maybe it is more necessary. Especially with my oldest
naturally taking on so much responsibility. I hear it is very common with
the oldest child in a family to be that way, but I feel so bad for him and
encourage him not to pick up after his little brothers.
<<How are you defining punishment?
Here's dictionary.com, via google:
"Punish: To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault."
<<I get the feeling that sometimes people are uncomfortable with the word
"punishment", so they substitute the nicer-sounding and more impersonal
"consequence". It's just a euphemism. Any time you inflict a penalty -
grounding, no tv, a spanking, loss of toys, whatever - for something you
decide is an offense - walking in the street, not picking up toys, not
making beds, whatever - you are punishing.>>
I am not afraid of the word "punishment". It happens all the time in this
world. Our neighbor went to jail for child molestation. Punishment. If
you choose to speed in your car, you get a ticket. Punishment. If you do
not pay the power pill you have no electricity. Punishment. You can use
the term as lightly or as heavily as you want I suppose. Punishment then, I
guess is not a bad thing, it just IS in many cases a consequence of your own
decisions. It does not matter how old you are, or how serious the issue, a
consequence is part of the natural process of decision making. With in
reason, obviously in a family where respect is a high priority. You can
still have your child face consequences in a very loving and respectful
manner, especially if it is dangerous, i.e. purposely running a stop sign!!
Our son when he was four years old was told time and time again to stay in
our own driveway with his pedal tractor. One day, he decided to head down
the middle of the street (very lightly traveled). I told him "no no", and
he went ahead and did whatever he wanted to do. I finally caught up with
him, and the tractor was put away for one week. He never did it again.
Debbie
"Arrgggh! It's a mess in here! &^@%^&!!!" If I must scream, I try to go
outside and do it. Then I may pop my head into Rain's room and say,
"Could you come put away the My Little Ponies stuff when you get a
chance? Oh, and here's your stack of laundry." And I go back and start
cleaning up the living room, and - not because she's concerned about
being punished, but because she can see that I'm freaked out and wants to
help - 90% of the time Rain will come in within 10 minutes and clean up
the ponies, and maybe offer to do more. She's on my side, and I'm on her
side...>>
Man, when I express frustration over the messy living room, my 9 year old
would automatically take over and clean the WHOLE thing all by himself. His
little brothers would simply WATCH! AAAHHHHH!! This is why I do the "when
the living room is clean, you can all go outside", etc..... I think with
multiple children maybe it is more necessary. Especially with my oldest
naturally taking on so much responsibility. I hear it is very common with
the oldest child in a family to be that way, but I feel so bad for him and
encourage him not to pick up after his little brothers.
<<How are you defining punishment?
Here's dictionary.com, via google:
"Punish: To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault."
<<I get the feeling that sometimes people are uncomfortable with the word
"punishment", so they substitute the nicer-sounding and more impersonal
"consequence". It's just a euphemism. Any time you inflict a penalty -
grounding, no tv, a spanking, loss of toys, whatever - for something you
decide is an offense - walking in the street, not picking up toys, not
making beds, whatever - you are punishing.>>
I am not afraid of the word "punishment". It happens all the time in this
world. Our neighbor went to jail for child molestation. Punishment. If
you choose to speed in your car, you get a ticket. Punishment. If you do
not pay the power pill you have no electricity. Punishment. You can use
the term as lightly or as heavily as you want I suppose. Punishment then, I
guess is not a bad thing, it just IS in many cases a consequence of your own
decisions. It does not matter how old you are, or how serious the issue, a
consequence is part of the natural process of decision making. With in
reason, obviously in a family where respect is a high priority. You can
still have your child face consequences in a very loving and respectful
manner, especially if it is dangerous, i.e. purposely running a stop sign!!
Our son when he was four years old was told time and time again to stay in
our own driveway with his pedal tractor. One day, he decided to head down
the middle of the street (very lightly traveled). I told him "no no", and
he went ahead and did whatever he wanted to do. I finally caught up with
him, and the tractor was put away for one week. He never did it again.
Debbie
Lewis
<<Unfortunately that doesn't mean the same to everyone who uses it. There
are
people who say "I respect my children so much I will force them to go to
school, play soccer and learn piano whether they want to or not." Or "I
respect my children so I spank them if they're bad."
Behaviors are easier to discuss than thought and intent are.>>>
I VERY much agree with your statements Sandra.
Debbie
are
people who say "I respect my children so much I will force them to go to
school, play soccer and learn piano whether they want to or not." Or "I
respect my children so I spank them if they're bad."
Behaviors are easier to discuss than thought and intent are.>>>
I VERY much agree with your statements Sandra.
Debbie
Lewis
<<<No, I understood. I was agreeing with you. I was saying someone ELSE
(someone you seemed to be trying to defend) WAS creating a punishment with
TV.
Sandra>>>
No, I was not trying to defend anyone, I understand where you were coming
from though.
Debbie
(someone you seemed to be trying to defend) WAS creating a punishment with
TV.
Sandra>>>
No, I was not trying to defend anyone, I understand where you were coming
from though.
Debbie
[email protected]
Debbie, I agree. :-). Nat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diamond_h2o
This is the same thing I do and if it works I see no problem with it.
> But, you misunderstood.......I tell them, they need to pick up thetoys
> FIRST and THEN they may watch tv.in order
>
> If they don't do it, then I remind them, what we have to do FIRST,
> to what they want to do next.all relay
>
> So, it is not a punishment, maybe a consequence, but I do not at
> it as being negative, just a matter of fact thing to do. It hardlyever
> happens that they do not do what they need to do in order to dowhat they
> are wanting to do. Occasionally it does happen, and we talk abouthow it
> could of been different in a loving and rational way, then wechange the
> subject and find something else fun to do when the project isdone. Often I
> share stories of my childhood with them, and they think it is sofunny that
> "Mom used to be just like us".with lots
>
> Believe me, I have tried other approaches, and keeping positive,
> of dialoge always works best for us. Yes, there are times thingsdon't get
> done as much as I would of liked, as long as they make their besteffort, I
> am fine with it. Again, the only rooms in the house I worry aboutare the
> common rooms, living room, dining room, kitchen. I take care ofthe main
> bathroom, because well, they are all boys, and they MISS all thetime, and I
> don't want them getting sick.......They can take over when they aremuch
> older.
>
> Debbie
diamond_h2o
This is the same way I think I just couldn't say it as well! Great
job explaining!
I am not afraid of the word "punishment". It happens all the time in
this
world. Our neighbor went to jail for child molestation. Punishment. If
you choose to speed in your car, you get a ticket. Punishment. If you
do
not pay the power pill you have no electricity. Punishment. You can
use
the term as lightly or as heavily as you want I suppose. Punishment
then, I
guess is not a bad thing, it just IS in many cases a consequence of
your own
decisions. It does not matter how old you are, or how serious the
issue, a
consequence is part of the natural process of decision making. With in
reason, obviously in a family where respect is a high priority. You
can
still have your child face consequences in a very loving and
respectful
manner, especially if it is dangerous, i.e. purposely running a stop
sign!!
Our son when he was four years old was told time and time again to
stay in
our own driveway with his pedal tractor. One day, he decided to head
down
the middle of the street (very lightly traveled). I told him "no no",
and
he went ahead and did whatever he wanted to do. I finally caught up
with
him, and the tractor was put away for one week. He never did it again.
job explaining!
I am not afraid of the word "punishment". It happens all the time in
this
world. Our neighbor went to jail for child molestation. Punishment. If
you choose to speed in your car, you get a ticket. Punishment. If you
do
not pay the power pill you have no electricity. Punishment. You can
use
the term as lightly or as heavily as you want I suppose. Punishment
then, I
guess is not a bad thing, it just IS in many cases a consequence of
your own
decisions. It does not matter how old you are, or how serious the
issue, a
consequence is part of the natural process of decision making. With in
reason, obviously in a family where respect is a high priority. You
can
still have your child face consequences in a very loving and
respectful
manner, especially if it is dangerous, i.e. purposely running a stop
sign!!
Our son when he was four years old was told time and time again to
stay in
our own driveway with his pedal tractor. One day, he decided to head
down
the middle of the street (very lightly traveled). I told him "no no",
and
he went ahead and did whatever he wanted to do. I finally caught up
with
him, and the tractor was put away for one week. He never did it again.
Fetteroll
on 6/24/02 8:06 PM, Lewis at lapin@... wrote:
doesn't *need* to be done. What dire consequences will happen if it doesn't?
You *want* it to be done so that the system you've come up with to maintain
*your* standards can operate. It's your *choice* to keep the house at that
standard. No one will arrest you if your house falls below a certain
standard. (Provided it's healthy of course!)
We don't need to eat 3 meals a day. We don't need to have dinner on the
table at 6. We don't need to have a set bed time. We don't need to keep the
house to a certain standard of tidiness. We don't have to make sure the kids
go to school and do their homework. ;-)
That doesn't mean let chaos reign ;-) It means learning to see that almost
everything we do is a choice rather than a "have to" or "need to".
Lots of problems arise from confusing the solution with the problem. Such as
assuming that having difficulties getting the kids to school and getting
their homework done is the problem. But the real problem -- to which school
is one (albeit poor ;-) solution -- is providing an environment so the kids
can learn.
Such as assuming that having difficulties making dinner in the evening when
the kids are tired and hungry is the problem. It isn't. The real problem is
that people get hungry and need food. That *doesn't* mean the only solution
is making "a meal" for the whole family to eat together at 6. It just means
people need access to food when they're hungry. Which is a problem with far
more potential solutions than the "problem" of making dinner.
It's liberating to realize that we don't have to clean the living room. We
can look at it as a gift *we* want to give to the family. That sounds like a
50's Suzy Homemaker sentiment ;-) But the Suzy Homemaker mind set assumes
that the rest of the family wants a certain standard and expects mom to
maintain it. If that's true, then there are way deeper problems involved
than getting the house clean! And we don't have to give them a gift of a
tidy house if doesn't feel like a gift. We could give them a meal, a mom
made quilt, snuggle time on the couch with a book, anything that gives us
pleasure to provide. If we do it for ourselves as a gift to them, then we
don't build up resentment if they don't appreciate it. If we do then we
should rethink why we're doing what we're doing!
a real wake up call when you hear your own reasonable sounding words come
out of your child directed at you. Many years ago I heard my daughter echo
"It's your mess, you're the one who needs to clean it up." Yikes! Not at all
the type of thinking I was hoping to foster. I realized if I wanted her to
say "Here, let me help," then I had to say it to her and project the
attitude that we're all in this together.
necessary. It's something that you want to acheive. The gift of an orderly
atmosphere for your guests perhaps.
Joyce
> If they don't want to, I say that it needs toAnd in the interests of clarity I think it's important to recognize that it
> be done, and everyone will do their part.
doesn't *need* to be done. What dire consequences will happen if it doesn't?
You *want* it to be done so that the system you've come up with to maintain
*your* standards can operate. It's your *choice* to keep the house at that
standard. No one will arrest you if your house falls below a certain
standard. (Provided it's healthy of course!)
We don't need to eat 3 meals a day. We don't need to have dinner on the
table at 6. We don't need to have a set bed time. We don't need to keep the
house to a certain standard of tidiness. We don't have to make sure the kids
go to school and do their homework. ;-)
That doesn't mean let chaos reign ;-) It means learning to see that almost
everything we do is a choice rather than a "have to" or "need to".
Lots of problems arise from confusing the solution with the problem. Such as
assuming that having difficulties getting the kids to school and getting
their homework done is the problem. But the real problem -- to which school
is one (albeit poor ;-) solution -- is providing an environment so the kids
can learn.
Such as assuming that having difficulties making dinner in the evening when
the kids are tired and hungry is the problem. It isn't. The real problem is
that people get hungry and need food. That *doesn't* mean the only solution
is making "a meal" for the whole family to eat together at 6. It just means
people need access to food when they're hungry. Which is a problem with far
more potential solutions than the "problem" of making dinner.
It's liberating to realize that we don't have to clean the living room. We
can look at it as a gift *we* want to give to the family. That sounds like a
50's Suzy Homemaker sentiment ;-) But the Suzy Homemaker mind set assumes
that the rest of the family wants a certain standard and expects mom to
maintain it. If that's true, then there are way deeper problems involved
than getting the house clean! And we don't have to give them a gift of a
tidy house if doesn't feel like a gift. We could give them a meal, a mom
made quilt, snuggle time on the couch with a book, anything that gives us
pleasure to provide. If we do it for ourselves as a gift to them, then we
don't build up resentment if they don't appreciate it. If we do then we
should rethink why we're doing what we're doing!
> Hey, I am right in there with them doing it.This is a biggie. (It's even bigger if the kids are there voluntarily.) It's
a real wake up call when you hear your own reasonable sounding words come
out of your child directed at you. Many years ago I heard my daughter echo
"It's your mess, you're the one who needs to clean it up." Yikes! Not at all
the type of thinking I was hoping to foster. I realized if I wanted her to
say "Here, let me help," then I had to say it to her and project the
attitude that we're all in this together.
> However, on occasion, I feel it necessary to make beds.Again the language is important in how we view something. It isn't
necessary. It's something that you want to acheive. The gift of an orderly
atmosphere for your guests perhaps.
> So, I tell them toThe consequence of not making a bed is a bed that is not made.
> make their beds. If they don't, then there is a consequence.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/26/02 6:50:44 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< > So, I tell them to
WORST CASE SCENARIOS:
The consequence of not making a bed in the presence of a volatile mom is that
the inaction could set off a volatile mom.
But the solution to that problem for many kids and lots of later-teens is to
get the heck away from the volatile mom by any means.
Personally, I don't want to set up a situation where my kids wake up thinking
"am I 18 yet!?" or wishing I would be gone from their lives.
And as analogies go, these kinds of consequences are the defense of abusive
husbands. "Well if she had had dinner on the table, I wouldn't have gotten
mad."
"If the house wasn't a mess I wouldn't be violent."
"If she wouldn't talk back, she wouldn't get hit."
(Oh wait, that second one was the defense of my abusive-parent friends,
neighbors and relatives when I was a kid, only it was "Don't talk back to ME
or I'll backhand you.")
I'm not suggesting there are people here who are into that level of cruelty
or violence. But I'm saying it's skirting the edge of it to say
"consequences" when you mean "punishment," and if the motivation of a child
to do something is to avoid punishment (instead of for the intrinsic reasons
of knowing why cleaning the kitchen or making the bed can be useful, and in
New Mexico it can have to do with keeping sand out of/off of things), then
maybe the parent should back up, pause, and try again.
Sandra
<< > So, I tell them to
> make their beds. If they don't, then there is a consequence.<<The consequence of not making a bed is a bed that is not made. >>
WORST CASE SCENARIOS:
The consequence of not making a bed in the presence of a volatile mom is that
the inaction could set off a volatile mom.
But the solution to that problem for many kids and lots of later-teens is to
get the heck away from the volatile mom by any means.
Personally, I don't want to set up a situation where my kids wake up thinking
"am I 18 yet!?" or wishing I would be gone from their lives.
And as analogies go, these kinds of consequences are the defense of abusive
husbands. "Well if she had had dinner on the table, I wouldn't have gotten
mad."
"If the house wasn't a mess I wouldn't be violent."
"If she wouldn't talk back, she wouldn't get hit."
(Oh wait, that second one was the defense of my abusive-parent friends,
neighbors and relatives when I was a kid, only it was "Don't talk back to ME
or I'll backhand you.")
I'm not suggesting there are people here who are into that level of cruelty
or violence. But I'm saying it's skirting the edge of it to say
"consequences" when you mean "punishment," and if the motivation of a child
to do something is to avoid punishment (instead of for the intrinsic reasons
of knowing why cleaning the kitchen or making the bed can be useful, and in
New Mexico it can have to do with keeping sand out of/off of things), then
maybe the parent should back up, pause, and try again.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/26/02 8:54:19 AM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
school, graduated at semester my junior year, (I had just turned 16 the month
before) and I was gone. I went to college for a few years then I met my
husband and was married at 19 and had Moly at 20.
Talking with my sister and brother, who are much younger than I am, they say
me leaving must have been a wake up call to our father, because he never hit
them ever, like he did me for years. I bore the brunt of the abuse, and there
was no excuse for the abuse like alcoholism. I am not saying alcoholism is an
excuse for abuse, I am just saying he wasn't an alcoholic, so that isn't
where the abuse came from. Luckily for my sister, our grandfather got sick
and died before he got bored with me and turned to her. Lucky for both my
sister and brother, our father must have realized what his hitting did to me,
and didn't ever lay a hand on them. Now my folks are the best grandparents,
they dote on my two kids and my sisters baby. I wouldn't have it any other
way, I just wish they could have acted toward me how they now act toward the
grandkids. Unfortunately, my husbands mother never changed, and we keep the
kids away from her as much as possible, and all visits with her are attended
by Darin and I as well. Darin and I jokingly call visits with his mom, her
supervised visitation rights. But it isn't really a joke. We can't trust her
not to make some hurtful comment to the kids, or to not spank them if they
don't "toe the line" and I think that is just awful sad.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> WORST CASE SCENARIOS:See that was me, when I was 12 I said NO More! I worked twice as hard at
>
> The consequence of not making a bed in the presence of a volatile mom is
> that
> the inaction could set off a volatile mom.
>
> But the solution to that problem for many kids and lots of later-teens is
> to
> get the heck away from the volatile mom by any means.
>
> Personally, I don't want to set up a situation where my kids wake up
> thinking
> "am I 18 yet!?" or wishing I would be gone from their lives.
school, graduated at semester my junior year, (I had just turned 16 the month
before) and I was gone. I went to college for a few years then I met my
husband and was married at 19 and had Moly at 20.
Talking with my sister and brother, who are much younger than I am, they say
me leaving must have been a wake up call to our father, because he never hit
them ever, like he did me for years. I bore the brunt of the abuse, and there
was no excuse for the abuse like alcoholism. I am not saying alcoholism is an
excuse for abuse, I am just saying he wasn't an alcoholic, so that isn't
where the abuse came from. Luckily for my sister, our grandfather got sick
and died before he got bored with me and turned to her. Lucky for both my
sister and brother, our father must have realized what his hitting did to me,
and didn't ever lay a hand on them. Now my folks are the best grandparents,
they dote on my two kids and my sisters baby. I wouldn't have it any other
way, I just wish they could have acted toward me how they now act toward the
grandkids. Unfortunately, my husbands mother never changed, and we keep the
kids away from her as much as possible, and all visits with her are attended
by Darin and I as well. Darin and I jokingly call visits with his mom, her
supervised visitation rights. But it isn't really a joke. We can't trust her
not to make some hurtful comment to the kids, or to not spank them if they
don't "toe the line" and I think that is just awful sad.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]