[email protected]

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:06:28 EDT PSoroosh@... writes:
> However, I had a housekeeper once (back in my previous life <G> when
> I was a
> corporate economist). She was a woman much older than myself. I
> asked her
> what I should do to keep my house more tidy. She said, absolutely
> seriously,
> "Pick up one thing and put it away. Then do the same with another.
> And then
> just keep doing that."

Rain and I do "20 things" oir "50 things" or whatever number a lot.
That's the basic idea - just pick up that number of things and then do
something else for a while, then pick up that many again... it usually
works, ad often we'll get into it and it leads to more intense
cleaning... but if not, even getting 50 things picked up makes it look
better.

dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/20/02 7:08:39 PM, freeform@... writes:

<< Rain and I do "20 things" oir "50 things" or whatever number a lot.
That's the basic idea - just pick up that number of things and then do
something else for a while, then pick up that many again... it usually
works, ad often we'll get into it and it leads to more intense
cleaning... but if not, even getting 50 things picked up makes it look
better. >>

That's what we used to do when the kids all shared a room. "Everybody pick
up 20 things!" and with the four of us, that was a lot of picking up! They'd
lose track and start over. <g>

Sandra

[email protected]

I don't know if I have any answers, but I also would like more info on
"dechoring" from people who have been there. Of 5 children, only my 7yo dd
habitually picks up after herself. When my kids were little, I also was "strict" and
so if I currently ask them if they will help with something, they usually will
say yes, but only because I don't think they realize they have the option of
saying no. I also try hard not to make too many requests because of this.

In someways, I think I am seeing progress. Today my 15yo dd made scrambled
eggs for herself and her brother and washed the pan and put it away! I was so
surprised. Other things like this are occurring more often--I think. Maybe I
just need to be more patient!

Any advice would be welcome.

--Jacqueline


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <ivorygrace7@...>

<<In someways, I think I am seeing progress. Today my 15yo dd made
scrambled
eggs for herself and her brother and washed the pan and put it away! I was
so
surprised. Other things like this are occurring more often--I think. Maybe
I
just need to be more patient!>>


Well that sounds great and I'm sure you will see more and more of those
kinds of things happening around the house. Patience is a great thing to
keep in mind. Plus, for those who are trying to change a few things at once,
there is bound to be a "what's going on" kind of attitude showing. I also
find that when I want to change something I just let it happen or not
instead of having a whole discussion about it before the fact. We may talk
about the changes later but I don't make a big deal out of it by saying,
"okay now, this is what we are going to be doing around here." The one thing
that comes to mind is me easing up on how the house looks. I didn't announce
to everyone I would try to let things go, I just stopped asking for so much.
Now things get done without me even asking.



Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com

Tia Leschke

>I don't know if I have any answers, but I also would like more info on
>"dechoring" from people who have been there. Of 5 children, only my 7yo dd
>habitually picks up after herself. When my kids were little, I also was
>"strict" and
>so if I currently ask them if they will help with something, they usually
>will
>say yes, but only because I don't think they realize they have the option of
>saying no. I also try hard not to make too many requests because of this.

I wonder if it would help to make it clear in your request that they don't
have to, like, "If you have time could you . . ." or "I could use some help
with this if anyone feels like it."
Tia

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/27/03 11:36:48 AM, mummy124@... writes:

<< I also

find that when I want to change something I just let it happen or not

instead of having a whole discussion about it before the fact. >>

That's so hard to describe, but there's a tension to it. If you're holding a
rope and someone's pulling the other end, you can't just let go all at once
or they fall on their ass and they strangely do NOT seem grateful that you've
let go of the rope you were holding them with.

"You must have slack."

Perhaps slack is a better first step than cutting all the ropes, untying
everything, and then getting grumpy that things are drifting away or falling on
their butts.

Sandra

kayb85

> I wonder if it would help to make it clear in your request that
they don't
> have to, like, "If you have time could you . . ." or "I could use
some help
> with this if anyone feels like it."
> Tia

And if child says, "Well, I don't really feel like it because I don't
like to clean up. I really just feel like playing all day and
leaving all the messes behind", do you just say, "Ok" and try not to
resent it?

What I'm working on is trying not to ask for anything at all
housework-wise, even cleaning up after themselves until I've modeled
doing housework sweetly and joyfully for some time. Because they
say "No, I'd rather not" more often than not. Or they'll so "Ok" but
with a whine and a resentful sigh. After I've modeled a good
attitude for some time I'll SLOWLY start suggesting them doing
something with me now and then. Does that sound reasonable?

De-schooling was MUCH easier than de-choring in our family. Probably
because there was a lot less de-schooling to do than there was de-
choring. I suspect it has a lot to do with my attitude toward
housework.

Sheila

Annette

Now, I am new to this whole unschooling thing so what we do here is
probably so nutty. When Nicolas turned about 5 I started to give him a
little responsibility for his things. Then just recently I started an
allowance. He needs to help out in order to earn his money. I don't ask
him for much, an occasional throw out the trash or clean up your area. I
try to keep it nice and sweet and more of a request than a demand.
Sometimes I get the old "OKAY OKAY" and I just tell him it was a small
favor he could do to really help me out and he doesn't mind. He doesn't
get money weekly at all, just when I feel he has really earned it! I
know that might be harsh, but really he doesn't need it, its more of an
incentive. He keeps it all and has NEVER used it! I admit that I am
still a nag after I have cleaned and I see a mess after all my hard
work. I am trying to get better at this. I also have a thing about where
the toys and items are placed. I HAVE to have all the legos with the
legos - anal. So, he is used to that. Most of the time they end up where
they belong and that makes me happy!! I just tell him that if he doesn't
it that way, they will always be where he can find them. On those
occasions where he is looking madly for something, I try to point out
that when he finds it, he should put it in ITS spot so he will find it
easier next time.

I NEVER ask them to help me clean though. I have my own way and I know I
will just end up redoing it if they clean for me. They tidy up and I do
the cleaning. I usually don't mind too much, its just the darn tile
floors that kill me here. They get so darn dirty. I also use all
essential oils and vinegar and baking soda and borax to clean. It smells
so lovely after I mop the floors!


Annette,Jason
& Our 3 Boujas
Nicolas, Joseph
& peanut due 1/12/04

Mary

From: <SandraDodd@...>

<<Perhaps slack is a better first step than cutting all the ropes, untying
everything, and then getting grumpy that things are drifting away or falling
on
their butts.>>


I read that when it came back on list and didn't come out sounding at all
like I meant for it to!! In my own little head it all went beautifully!!
Sometimes I go to my own little world. But it's okay, they know me there!


We never had many rules and restrictions at all even when we did have some.
So for me to ease up more on what the kids *needed* to clean up, it wasn't
much of a stretch. So years ago, going from mandatory clean up every night
to just letting the night go by without it, wasn't a big deal. Of course
that was really the only thing we changed, cleaning up so much all the time.
We never restricted food or tv and such and never did school so it all went
smoothly here. Making big changes all at once I don't think is a good way to
go about it. And sometimes, depending on the situation, just letting things
happen or not is better instead of announcing it first. Again, depending on
the situation.



Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com

Lyle W.

Ivory asked:
~~I don't know if I have any answers, but I also would like more info on
"dechoring" from people who have been there.~~

It's more of a shift in the parent's attitude than the kids at first. If a person appears grumpy about cleaning, the kids will pick up on that and immediately assume that cleaning is a real bummer. If you hear yourself complaining about something needing cleaned, everyone else hears the complaining too. If YOU obviously don't want to do it, there's a good chance that your kids won't be overly excited about it either. Complaining leaves a bad vibe in the air--not a good selling point.

If a parent makes something sound like a really big deal, it becomes even bigger in a child's mind. If it's a big, negative deal, it may become even more negative for a kid. A positive attitude sets a much more pleasant stage for others to walk out on. Set the example you would like others to follow.

There is definitely a transition period after a proclamation like "NO MORE CHORES" is given. For a kid it may be like being set free from prison, and for awhile they may want to push their newfound freedom to the limit. But slowly, cleaning and picking up will be no big deal, as long as the parents are not making it a big deal. My kids do a lot more picking up now than they did a couple of years ago, and there are more and more days when I get home and the dishes have been ran, the counters are wiped down, and the house is almost....clean. Not everyday, but there are days when I don't want to do it either. And some days I don't. The kids have that same right.

Plan on doing most of the cleaning for awhile. Better yet, plan on doing ALL of the cleaning for awhile, and whenever someone else pitches in, you may appreciate it more. Try not to look at it as "I have to do it all!", because you don't have to do it all. There's always a choice. If you don't feel like cleaning today, then don't. Will the house get messier? Yup. Is it a big deal? Shouldn't be. During de-choring your house is going to be messier. It's a fact. But little by little things will change, and you will notice things getting done that you didn't have to do and didn't have to demand done. It won't happen overnight. It probably won't happen in three months. It may not happen in the first year if a parent walks in day after day, exasperated with the fact that a room isn't clean and tidy. When you say to your kids, "hey, why didn't you clean that up?", the first thing that may go through their minds is, "well why didn't you?" It works both ways.

Cleaning doesn't have to be a big deal. Don't make it a big deal and your kids may be more inclined to follow in your footsteps.

:)

Lyle




----- Original Message -----
From: ivorygrace7@...
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 13:11:03 EST
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Cleaning

> I don't know if I have any answers, but I also would like more info on
> "dechoring" from people who have been there. Of 5 children, only my 7yo dd
> habitually picks up after herself. When my kids were little, I also was "strict" and
> so if I currently ask them if they will help with something, they usually will
> say yes, but only because I don't think they realize they have the option of
> saying no. I also try hard not to make too many requests because of this.
>
> In someways, I think I am seeing progress. Today my 15yo dd made scrambled
> eggs for herself and her brother and washed the pan and put it away! I was so
> surprised. Other things like this are occurring more often--I think. Maybe I
> just need to be more patient!
>
> Any advice would be welcome.
>
> --Jacqueline
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



***Always remember, Lead By Example***

--
___________________________________________________________
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Fetteroll

on 12/27/03 2:12 PM, Annette at boujamama@... wrote:

> When Nicolas turned about 5 I started to give him a
> little responsibility for his things.

I think when parents talk about "giving responsibility" they generally mean
they expect the child to take care of something to the parent's standards
while allowing the child to suffer the "natural" consequences of their
choices. The parent may set lower standards for a child but the standards
are still the parent's.

True responsibility means you are able to weigh the consequences of the
options open to you and choose what works best for you.

> Then just recently I started an
> allowance. He needs to help out in order to earn his money.

There are pitfalls of tying allowance to performance.

It sounds like good training for the business world. But unlike a real job
where someone has choices about what type of work to do and the atmosphere
they like to work in, the work available at home is limited to what the
parent is willing to pay for. That's fine and resembles the working world if
the child wants to earn extra money. But as a sole source of income it
doesn't resemble real life at all.

> I don't ask
> him for much, an occasional throw out the trash or clean up your area. I
> try to keep it nice and sweet and more of a request than a demand.
> Sometimes I get the old "OKAY OKAY" and I just tell him it was a small
> favor he could do to really help me out and he doesn't mind. He doesn't
> get money weekly at all, just when I feel he has really earned it!

I think the nice and sweet asking is good!

I think when no isn't an acceptable answer, we shouldn't disguise it as a
request. Not even a little bit. If we're requesting, it should be the type
of request we'd make of an adult. We should recognize that we're imposing on
someone to help us out and asking them to do us a favor. And we should be
aware that we owe them something in return, such as a sincere thank you and
appreciation at the very least.

> I
> know that might be harsh, but really he doesn't need it, its more of an
> incentive. He keeps it all and has NEVER used it!

I think that last bit sounds like an excuse why something you're not totally
sure is right is still okay.

> I admit that I am
> still a nag after I have cleaned and I see a mess after all my hard
> work. I am trying to get better at this.

I think it's good to be honest about our feelings! But, yes, it's better to
examine our feelings in a larger context. We shouldn't impose a decrease in
someone else's joy in order to increase our joy.

> I also have a thing about where
> the toys and items are placed. I HAVE to have all the legos with the
> legos - anal. So, he is used to that.

I'm pretty anal too about organizing. (Not so anal about getting around *to*
organizing though ;-)

But the way I see it is that if we're asking someone to do us a favor, part
of what we owe them is appreciation for how ever they get the job done.
People who want to help don't mind some direction in how it gets done. But
when there are exacting requirements from the asker and disappointment at
the job done then it doesn't encourage someone to volunteer to help out that
person.

I think it helps us approach it with the right attitude that will encourage
help if we look at our kids help as doing us a favor, not conscripted labor.

> I just tell him that if he doesn't
> it that way, they will always be where he can find them. On those
> occasions where he is looking madly for something, I try to point out
> that when he finds it, he should put it in ITS spot so he will find it
> easier next time.

Some cleaning guide recommended that when you have a choice between hard
getting/easy putting away and easy getting/hard putting away that it helps
to choose the first. We're usually more motivated to expend energy to find
something than we are to expend energy to put it away.

Organzing does, of course, help make finding easier! But I did see that
before puberty that my daughter would find organizing overwhelming. She
truly couldn't look at stuff and see a plan of attack, even though I'd tried
various suggestions. Now it's *much* easier for her. Not because I trained
her but just because she's older and her brain works differently.

And I've noticed that when I'm searching for something I don't appreciate
someone telling me that I should have put them where they belonged! I might
appreciate someone helping me put it away later, though.

Joyce

Danielle E. Conger

When I think of allowance, I try to put it in the perspective of my own
life. Dh goes to work; I do not. I don't get an allowance, nor do I get
paid for household (or other <eg>) services. We are partners in our family
as a whole. His job happens to come with a paycheck but much of the work he
does for the family is unpaid, as is mine. If he told me that he would
start giving me an allowance based on my performance, which he alone
evaluated, I'd be pretty furious.

My two oldest and I read about the sustainable earth one day--someone sent
a link. We grabbed our cuisinaire rods and used them to represent visually
the comparisons that were being made. Then I pulled up excel, and we
figured out the daily expenditure for our household and compared it to the
world average this website was giving through the cuisinaire rods. Very
sobering.

Then, my kids asked for money, so we figured out with a pie chart what
percentage of our household income goes where. I showed them that whatever
gets leftover is what we get to spend. We made up envelopes with pictures
on the front representing each budget category--mortgage, car, groceries,
classes, savings, utilities, etc. Now, they get $40 every month as income;
they then divvy the appropriate percentage out to each "bill," and whatever
is left over is their's to spend, save, whatever. Their income is tied only
to the household income and expenditures, just like mine and dh's. This has
been helpful for me as well as the kids. It helps us all keep our budget in
mind and our spending on track. The kids understand in concrete ways where
the money comes from, where it goes, and why.

--danielle




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyle W.

Joyce wrote:
~~The parent may set lower standards for a child but the standards
are still the parent's.~~

That's a good point. When a parent sends a child to go clean their room, however 'clean' the room ends up being should be up to the child. It's THEIR room, and THEIR stuff, and they should be able to organize it to their own liking.

~~I HAVE to have all the legos with the
> legos - anal.~~

Why?

~~Organzing does, of course, help make finding easier!~~

That depends on who does the organizing. It may help the organizer to find things more easily, but someone else may have organized it a different way, and may not see any rhyme or reason to the 'organization'. If one person says,"That's where it goes", another might ask, "Why?", and the response to the why? should be a careful one. Just because I like to keep the scissors in the junk drawer in the kitchen doesn't mean that's where they should go. Someone else may use them in an entirely different part of the house more often than I use them, so maybe their placement of the scissors makes more sense than mine. At least to them it does. You can force a person to put things away in a certain place, but you cannot force a person to be 'organized'. Some people are, some aren't, and it's usually the organized people that are doing the bitching. Sometimes the organized people can even make the rest of us feel guilty about our un-organization, and make us feel inept and defic
ient if we are unable to 'pull ourselves up' to their level. If organized people want to go around organizing things, fine, but just leave the rest of us alone. :)

~~And I've noticed that when I'm searching for something I don't appreciate
someone telling me that I should have put them where they belonged!~~

Hmmm...that sounds like a payback to me, lol. I doubt anyone appreciates having their own 'lectures' handed back to them. But it is a great way to find out how the lecture really 'feels' to others. (I speak from experience, I used to be King of the Cleaning Lectures.)

Everyone should be able to decide what is 'clean enough' for themselves. If someone doesn't like the way I did something, then they can re-do it to their heart's content! If it wasn't good enough, then fix it yourself!

Kids have way too much going on to worry about soemthing as mundane as cleaning. A person is only a kid for a short time, let them enjoy it, because they will have the rest of their lives to feel the 'burden' of things like cleaning, just like we all do now.

Lyle





***Always remember, Lead By Example***

--
___________________________________________________________
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zenmomma2kids

>>We shouldn't impose a decrease in someone else's joy in order to
increase our joy.>>

This really jumped out for me, Joyce. It deserves repeating.

Life is good.
~Mary

liza sabater

On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 02:12 PM, Annette wrote:

> I also have a thing about where
> the toys and items are placed. I HAVE to have all the legos with the
> legos - anal. So, he is used to that. Most of the time they end up
> where
> they belong and that makes me happy!!


Annette,

Why can't he have a 'mess' in his room or in designated areas in the
house? I just feel that if this were asked of me all the time I would
go nuts. I write and develop websites and have little piles of papers
around my desk with wireframes or outlines. If I were asked to move my
stuff all the time to make someone happy, it would drive me berserk. I
sometimes leave the stuff out on the table to 'put it down' not because
I am done with the task but because I need to be away from it to think.
I've seen my kids play the same way (the oldest is 6.5 and the youngest
3.5). What looks like disinterest is a rest moment. These days, they've
taken to lining up their 'action figures' ("mommy, they are not dolls,
their action figures") in "scenes". Sometimes the AFs are looking at
the TV or they are looking out the window, towards the Empire State
building. I'd be toast if I confused that with a 'mess'. So at the end
of the day nowadays, we either pile on to a side of the living room so
that they put it away in the morning or I ask them to put in heir room.
I've stopped asking they keep their room mess free. They're learning by
'losing' their toys in the apartment that it's better to put their
stuff in a place where they can find it. And before I clean, I ask to
move the toys. Never know if Bulbasur or Batman are doing something the
kids only know about.

l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

liza sabater

On Sunday, December 28, 2003, at 08:48 AM, Danielle E. Conger wrote:

> When I think of allowance, I try to put it in the perspective of my own
> life. Dh goes to work; I do not. I don't get an allowance, nor do I get
> paid for household (or other <eg>) services. We are partners in our
> family
> as a whole. His job happens to come with a paycheck but much of the
> work he
> does for the family is unpaid, as is mine. If he told me that he would
> start giving me an allowance based on my performance, which he alone
> evaluated, I'd be pretty furious.
>
> My two oldest and I read about the sustainable earth one day--someone
> sent
> a link. We grabbed our cuisinaire rods and used them to represent
> visually
> the comparisons that were being made. Then I pulled up excel, and we
> figured out the daily expenditure for our household and compared it to
> the
> world average this website was giving through the cuisinaire rods. Very
> sobering.
>
> Then, my kids asked for money, so we figured out with a pie chart what
> percentage of our household income goes where. I showed them that
> whatever
> gets leftover is what we get to spend. We made up envelopes with
> pictures
> on the front representing each budget category--mortgage, car,
> groceries,
> classes, savings, utilities, etc. Now, they get $40 every month as
> income;
> they then divvy the appropriate percentage out to each "bill," and
> whatever
> is left over is their's to spend, save, whatever. Their income is tied
> only
> to the household income and expenditures, just like mine and dh's.
> This has
> been helpful for me as well as the kids. It helps us all keep our
> budget in
> mind and our spending on track. The kids understand in concrete ways
> where
> the money comes from, where it goes, and why.
>
> --danielle
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

liza sabater

On Sunday, December 28, 2003, at 08:48 AM, Danielle E. Conger wrote:

> We grabbed our cuisinaire rods

I've heard about these.
Why are they cuisinaire?
Were they meant once for cooking?
What do they look like?

Terribly curious,
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
> > Then just recently I started an
> > allowance. He needs to help out in order to earn his money.
>
>There are pitfalls of tying allowance to performance.

I tried that when Lars was little. He chose not to have the money.
I've gone back and forth a few times about requiring chores, but for about
the last year or so I haven't required any. He's now starting to do things
around the house just because he thinks they need doing. *That's* what I
was hoping for. (He also usually helps when I ask.)
Tia

J. Stauffer

My kids just get spending money. They get a set amount each month. Adriane
buys all her own clothes, cosmetics (even took me to LOTR the other day, her
treat) so she tends to get quit a bit more. The youngest kids buy mostly
gum and don't tend to need as much. All the kids know if they need more
money, or something came up like an outing with friends, or whatever, all
they have to do is let us know and if the money is there, they can have it.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "liza sabater" <listdiva@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Allowance


> On Sunday, December 28, 2003, at 08:48 AM, Danielle E. Conger wrote:
>
> > We grabbed our cuisinaire rods
>
> I've heard about these.
> Why are they cuisinaire?
> Were they meant once for cooking?
> What do they look like?
>
> Terribly curious,
> l i z a
> =========================
> www.culturekitchen.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

Danielle E. Conger

At 11:44 AM 12/28/2003 -0500, liza sabater wrote:
>I've heard about these.
>Why are they cuisinaire?
>Were they meant once for cooking?
>What do they look like?
I'm sure I'm spelling it wrong. LOL They are basically unit rods, different
colors, different lengths. Looks like someone took apart a bar graph. You
can buy all kinds of curriculum workbooks and stuff to do with them, but I
only bought the rods themselves. They make comparing abstract things really
concrete for little ones, which is why I like them.

--danielle

Elizabeth Roberts

The comment was made that: "If one person says,"That's where it goes", another might ask, "Why?", and the response to the why? should be a careful one. Just because I like to keep the scissors in the junk drawer in the kitchen doesn't mean that's where they should go. Someone else may use them in an entirely different part of the house more often than I use them, so maybe their placement of the scissors makes more sense than mine. At least to them it does."

I had to laugh..I JUST went through this with my daughter Sarah. Frustrated over two laundry baskets full of socks, many without a mate anymore, at least half of them worn out, and not enough in currently needed sizes...we chucked them all and just bought everyone a new pack of currently needed size socks.


I suggested to Sarah that she put hers in her underwear drawer (we'd previously discussed how we're not going to have a sock basket anymore) and she said "Why?" I said "Most people put their socks in the same drawer as their underwear." Then I realized that was not quite true. I said "No, most people might not. It's more like I suggest it because that's where my mother insisted I keep MY socks when I was a kid. I have a separate drawer now for my socks. So, as long as they're in your dresser, just put them where you want them." She went off, and as far as I know that's where she put them...somewhere in her dresser. She might not have, but I'll try to not worry about it.

MamaBeth



Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!

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**When Nicolas turned about 5 I started to give him a
little responsibility for his things. Then just recently I started an
allowance. He needs to help out in order to earn his money. I don't ask
him for much, an occasional throw out the trash or clean up your area. I
try to keep it nice and sweet and more of a request than a demand.
Sometimes I get the old "OKAY OKAY" and I just tell him it was a small
favor he could do to really help me out and he doesn't mind. He doesn't
get money weekly at all, just when I feel he has really earned it!**

Um - I've been trying to think of a nice gentle way to say this but I haven't
been able to manage it. Sorry.

I think this is a horrible idea. How can the child hope to get a clear idea
of what performance will earn him money and what won't under these
circumstances? If you're going to pay a child for chores, it's only fair to let them know,
concretely, what they need to do to earn the money. "Just when I feel he has
really earned it" doesn't give the child a clear connection between his "work"
and his income - it gives him the knowledge that mom will give him money when
she feels like it, maybe.

I'm not against paying children for working around the house. I've always
paid my kids for hard stuff. Lawn mowing, leaf raking, snow shoveling,
scrubbing floors... They always know the minimum they'll earn before they start. I AM
against work being a child's only access to the family income, but that's
another topic.

I really, REALLY wouldn't want to model for my children that income could be
legitimately tied to the unpredictable whim of an employer in the "REAL"
world.

Deborah in IL


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In a message dated 12/28/03 10:16:50 AM, listdiva@... writes:

<< Why are they cuisinaire?
Were they meant once for cooking? >>

Isn't cooking stuff "cuisinart"?

Oh cool! FUN books has a picture of them, and this blurb. And they're
CHEAP! (Cheaper than other sites I saw in passing, anyway.)

Cuisenaire Rods

Cuisenaire rods are a collection of rectangular rods in 10 lengths and 10
colors, each color corresponding to a different length. Learners can explore
whole numbers, fractions, measurement, ratio, area, perimeter, symmetry,
congruence, three-dimensional geometry, patterns, and functions. They allow a concrete
way of looking a math, and are available in both wood and plastic. We
recommend the supplemental set because, though 155 sounds like a big number, it really
isn’t. Having that amount is most useful.
#0999 Introductory Set of 74 Plastic Rods
  $  9.65
#0980 Introductory Set of 74 Wood Rods
  $11.25

=======

We have a set of wooden ones (ten of each size) that a friend who had trained
to teach early elementary (and lasted a few years <g>) have us because from
her training she could not IMAGINE that our children could possibly learn math
without those. And when she gave them to us she gave us a set of 26
laminated sheets with which they could make the letters of the alphabet by putting
the right-sized rod over a space that matched it. LAME! That didn't seem to
help with math OR writing. The letter R has nothing to do with straight
sticks, but there it was, drawn in precisely measured and
seemingly-randomly-colored sticks.

That complaint registered, I like the wooden ones. I like them for the same
reason I like any stained hardwood game markers or "manipulatives."
Aesthetic value. They feel good, they look good, they sound cool when you drop them
on the table.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 12/28/03 4:39 PM, Elizabeth Roberts at mamabethuscg@... wrote:

> "Most people put their socks in the same drawer as their underwear."

I now have a basket in the bathroom for Kat's socks and underwear so she
change them without much thought. The goal of regularly changed underwear
seemed more worthy than the goal of things being where they're "supposed to
be" ;-)

Joyce

Deborah Lewis

<< Why are they cuisinaire?
Were they meant once for cooking? >>

***Isn't cooking stuff "cuisinart"?***

I'm reading backwards here so maybe this was answered. I think they were
named for their inventor, George Cuisinaire. But dogs do like to eat
them.

They're a centimeter wide and tall and from one to ten(?) centimeters in
length. They're different colors, very pretty. We build walls out of
them and launch little pink pigs from the catapult to knock the walls
down.
I've never put one in the Cuisinart though.

Deb L

Lyle W.

My kids get money every week, but we don't even call it an allowance. It's just...their part of the family's money. We are all part of the family, we all do things that make us a family, and we all share what we have. It's really that simple for us.

Lyle

***Always remember, Lead By Example***

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Lyle W.

Elizabeth wrote:

"Most people put their socks in the same drawer as their underwear." Then I realized that was not quite true. I said "No, most people might not. It's more like I suggest it because that's where my mother insisted I keep MY socks when I was a kid. I have a separate drawer now for my socks. So, as long as they're in your dresser, just put them where you want them."

We don't even go that far. Our laundry area is in our basement, so we built a bunch of shelves/bins and hanging rods right next to the washer and dryer, so now we fold/hang the clothes right there and they are PUT AWAY! That's as far as they go. I know it sounds a little weird, but we completely avoid the 'put away your clothes' issues. Everyone always knows where their clothes are, there is never a question of what goes where...it's all just right there! When someone changes clothes, the dirty clothes simply get tossed to the bottom of the basement steps, and whomever goes down to the basement just puts/kicks them into the laundry room.

It's simple, effecient, and it works for us.

What's in our dressers and closets? Everything EXCEPT clothes! lol.

:)

Lyle

***Always remember, Lead By Example***

--
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Danielle E. Conger

At 01:39 PM 12/28/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>If one person says,"That's where it goes", another might ask, "Why?", and
>the response to the why? should be a careful one. Just because I like to
>keep the scissors in the junk drawer in the kitchen doesn't mean that's
>where they should go. Someone else may use them in an entirely different
>part of the house more often than I use them, so maybe their placement of
>the scissors makes more sense than mine. At least to them it does.

That's why I always look at mess/ clutter as an opportunity to rethink and
reorganize. I enjoy organizing--gives me a profound sense of
accomplishment! Even if Pam S. did tell me I was a different species! <g>

When I look at clutter or mess as an opportunity, it allows me to think
about how our system is working for the whole family, whether our needs
have changed, which they do constantly with three small children. I want
our home to work for everyone in the family; I want everyone to love being
home. Reorganizing keeps me that much more in touch with how things are
working for everyone, and my binges are almost always preceded by a
discussion with the kids or dh how things might work better or at least why
they're not working. We call it "futzing," as in "Mama's futzing again." <LOL>

When I think of giving my children "responsibility," it's more like
"control." I am a big fan of lots of clear plastic bins and lots of low
shelves, of which I never have enough. This lets the kids see what they
want and get at it; also makes things easier to put away.
I have everything within their reach and perspective, which allows them to
take control over the things they want. All the toys they play with on a
regular basis are within their reach, as is the tv, vcr tapes, their
computer and games, their snacks and food. The only limitation is low
shelving space! <LOL> I try to put really obvious stuff high up, so they
can clearly see it and ask for it when they want it. Not so much
"responsibility" as control over their world, which I think is tremendously
important.

Cleaning has always worked best as a group effort in our house. When we all
do it happily, the kids almost always pitch in happily. When we try to get
them to do it themselves, it often turns into a battle. Dh has been slow to
get this, as he still gets caught up in the traditional "responsibility"
mode (we're working on this, and he's trying hard, but sometimes it's
knee-jerk). When I want things picked up, it's usually because I want to
run a vacuum. I just tell them that I'd like to vacuum and could they
please help me pick things up off the floor. This is usually plenty of
motivation--small things have gone the way of the vacuum in the past. The
family room we do probably every other day, but the bedrooms only about
once a week. This seems to work for them.

Helping is voluntary and still fun for them, and I hope it always stays
this way. Sam (3.5) helped his dad bring wood around for the wood stove
yesterday. Emily (6) picked up a couple of hand fulls of kindling because
she wanted to be helpful, and yesterday, she helped her brother make his
bed. Julia (5) loves to be helpful and take care of other people--she's the
first one to run and get ice or a special blanket if someone gets hurt or
sad. I have really nice kids, and I like them. It always amazes me the
number of people who can't say that.

--danielle

Danielle E. Conger

At 08:54 AM 12/29/2003 -0600, Lyle W. wrote:
>Our laundry area is in our basement, so we built a bunch of shelves/bins
>and hanging rods right next to the washer and dryer, so now we fold/hang
>the clothes right there and they are PUT AWAY! That's as far as they
>go. I know it sounds a little weird, but we completely avoid the 'put
>away your clothes' issues. Everyone always knows where their clothes are,
>there is never a question of what goes where...it's all just right
>there! When someone changes clothes, the dirty clothes simply get tossed
>to the bottom of the basement steps, and whomever goes down to the
>basement just puts/kicks them into the laundry room.

Okay, I think this is a stroke of brilliance! Laundry room/ dressing room.
Hmmmm..... May have to mull that one over a bit more.

In our small house, our laundry room is a really big room. We have all our
arts/ crafts, overflow pantry and extra fridge in there so it can do
multiple duty. We've turned the kids' closets into play areas, and dresser
space is at a premium. I'm liking your idea!

How do you deal with the whole changing/ gender issue? I never quite know
at what age that's supposed to become an issue. Dh and I have very few
inhibitions, but lots of folks do. Our kids are still pretty young and
bathe together, so it won't be an issue here for a while!

--danielle

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In a message dated 12/29/03 9:42:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
unschoolingdad@... writes:

> My kids get money every week, but we don't even call it an allowance. It's
> just...their part of the family's money. We are all part of the family, we
> all do things that make us a family, and we all share what we have. It's
> really that simple for us.
>
>

It is like this for us as well although we don't give the boys any specific
money. It all stays in the checking account. The boys are aware of the bills
that need to be paid. They help decide what vacations we want to take and how
much we need to set aside each month to get there. They know what household
projects need to be done and what money we need to set aside for that etc.
They are aware of how much "spending money" is left over after everything is
paid. When they want or need something we look to see if we have the money and if
we do they get it, sometimes they decide to wait and see if there is
something else they want more but it is their choice.

Like I do things. I don't work at a job that pays me money and I don't have
an allowance or money given to me specifically for me. But if I want
something I look to see if we have the money and then I get it. Same with Jackson
although his job does pay him money. LOL. It all goes into the checking
account. When we go out I will ask the boys if there is anything they need while we
are out or anywhere they want to stop. When we go grocery shopping they put
what they want and need in the cart. It is a family effort, managing money.

Anyway just a couple of thoughts
Pam G


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