Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] SOS!!
[email protected]
Hi Patti,
I our homeschool group, I have heard a few people talk about the same
thing.
It seem that the problem is when they are at home. Try staying active out of
the house. Sign up for homeschool activities or if you do not have a group
to join for support create your own activites and put it on a calendar chart
that your sons can see and look forward to, ask them for suggestions of
things to do. I have had great luck in m;y community with job shadowing. I
find people with interesting jobs that my son is interested in and call them
and they are very nice about letting him spend the day or part of the day
watching them do their job. They have fun and so does my son. Some of the
things he has done is spend a day watching our vet treat animals and even do
surgery, also going to a horse barn and watching the vet treat the horses. He
has seen everything from shots to insemination. He is 10 now and is even
able to help. He has spent the day with our prosecuting attorney and a day in
our state capital with our senator. He has walked streams with and
enviormental scientist------just to name a few. He is ten but has been doing
this since age 8. I have had such great cooperation and I really think that
the professionals enjoy him as well.
There are a lot of my friends that say thier kids fight at home. You
won't have to do it forever just until you break the pattern.
I do this because I have an only child and I want to keep him excited
and not bored or he does not want to do any school work. Also, he has made
friends in the community of all ages. He has really become quite well know
and it has given a real boust to the homeschooling community. People are
always impressed and think he is so lucky to be learning this way
I did not mean to go on and on , but this is such a great part of
our homeschooling
Don't send them to school, you may be sorry
hang in there and just work it out with your kids
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I our homeschool group, I have heard a few people talk about the same
thing.
It seem that the problem is when they are at home. Try staying active out of
the house. Sign up for homeschool activities or if you do not have a group
to join for support create your own activites and put it on a calendar chart
that your sons can see and look forward to, ask them for suggestions of
things to do. I have had great luck in m;y community with job shadowing. I
find people with interesting jobs that my son is interested in and call them
and they are very nice about letting him spend the day or part of the day
watching them do their job. They have fun and so does my son. Some of the
things he has done is spend a day watching our vet treat animals and even do
surgery, also going to a horse barn and watching the vet treat the horses. He
has seen everything from shots to insemination. He is 10 now and is even
able to help. He has spent the day with our prosecuting attorney and a day in
our state capital with our senator. He has walked streams with and
enviormental scientist------just to name a few. He is ten but has been doing
this since age 8. I have had such great cooperation and I really think that
the professionals enjoy him as well.
There are a lot of my friends that say thier kids fight at home. You
won't have to do it forever just until you break the pattern.
I do this because I have an only child and I want to keep him excited
and not bored or he does not want to do any school work. Also, he has made
friends in the community of all ages. He has really become quite well know
and it has given a real boust to the homeschooling community. People are
always impressed and think he is so lucky to be learning this way
I did not mean to go on and on , but this is such a great part of
our homeschooling
Don't send them to school, you may be sorry
hang in there and just work it out with your kids
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa Krause
Hi Patti,
This might sound like a "duh" suggestion, but have you
tried asking them why they're fighting so much? If
they want other friends besides each other, could you
let them pick a couple clubs/sports/whatever to join
separately? Do they WANT to go to school or is that
just the last resort solution you have come to? How
much of the time are they fighting vs getting along?
Those questions are mainly rhetorical, BTW. I'm not
trying to grill you, just offering some points to
ponder.
I'm pretty lucky in that my kids don't fight all that
much (yet). They have their little brawls, sure, but
if I remember correctly, my brother and I fought a lot
more. We also got along splendidly when we weren't
fighting, however. How do your boys get along when
they're not going at it? If you stay home all the
time, maybe they are just getting on each other's
nerves. Even a little daily trip to the park or
something might help. My son and I are both
homebodies, but my daughter needs to get out more or
she gets grouchy. Both kids take dance, and we have a
park nearby that we visit often, and a little library
we go to once every week or two. This stuff is all in
a little town of 1500 people so it's not like we are
traveling the world, but it does keep them from
getting restless.
I think a lot of home/unschoolers have burn-out
periods. We had one for pretty much the entire month
of April and most of May. I stopped doing anything
that was remotely school like and they eventually
settled back down. Now they are back on track and
asking for "stuff" again. Normally my son loves to do
worksheets and things like that (he asks for them),
but he was so not interested for that burnout period.
I am veering off topic here but what I'm saying is
that maybe the overall balance in your
house/life/whatever is upset and your sons are
fighting BECAUSE of that, instead of vice versa. It
doesn't mean anyone is doing anything wrong. It just
happens.
My advice is sounding less than sage so I'll stop now.
Good luck with your boys.
Lisa
=====
"Thinking about life, by the time you get old enough to understand what it's all about, you die." -- Ozzy Osbourne
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
This might sound like a "duh" suggestion, but have you
tried asking them why they're fighting so much? If
they want other friends besides each other, could you
let them pick a couple clubs/sports/whatever to join
separately? Do they WANT to go to school or is that
just the last resort solution you have come to? How
much of the time are they fighting vs getting along?
Those questions are mainly rhetorical, BTW. I'm not
trying to grill you, just offering some points to
ponder.
I'm pretty lucky in that my kids don't fight all that
much (yet). They have their little brawls, sure, but
if I remember correctly, my brother and I fought a lot
more. We also got along splendidly when we weren't
fighting, however. How do your boys get along when
they're not going at it? If you stay home all the
time, maybe they are just getting on each other's
nerves. Even a little daily trip to the park or
something might help. My son and I are both
homebodies, but my daughter needs to get out more or
she gets grouchy. Both kids take dance, and we have a
park nearby that we visit often, and a little library
we go to once every week or two. This stuff is all in
a little town of 1500 people so it's not like we are
traveling the world, but it does keep them from
getting restless.
I think a lot of home/unschoolers have burn-out
periods. We had one for pretty much the entire month
of April and most of May. I stopped doing anything
that was remotely school like and they eventually
settled back down. Now they are back on track and
asking for "stuff" again. Normally my son loves to do
worksheets and things like that (he asks for them),
but he was so not interested for that burnout period.
I am veering off topic here but what I'm saying is
that maybe the overall balance in your
house/life/whatever is upset and your sons are
fighting BECAUSE of that, instead of vice versa. It
doesn't mean anyone is doing anything wrong. It just
happens.
My advice is sounding less than sage so I'll stop now.
Good luck with your boys.
Lisa
=====
"Thinking about life, by the time you get old enough to understand what it's all about, you die." -- Ozzy Osbourne
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
marji
Hey, Patti!
You have my sympathy! And, my empathy. You sound like you're writing from
a spot that's between a rock and a hard place, which is a terrible place to
make a long-term decision from (but a great place to make a short-term
decision!).
I'm absolutely no expert at all here! But, I do have some thoughts on this
which you are free to completely ignore:
There are two things that occurred to me when I was reading your SOS, the
answers you got, and the answers you gave. Here they are, mushed together
in one thought. Lisa had wondered if you had asked them why they are
fighting. You said that their answers are usually pretty basic ("he just
bugs me"). The first thing that struck me was that I wondered if they had
the vocabulary to express what's going on for them. There could be a lot
of reasons for their fighting that they just don't know how to express to
you - or to themselves! But the very first thing I thought when I read
your first message was, "Those guys are getting something out of this
situation." In other words, they may not be hating all this fighting as
much as you do; there may be some kind of unintended reward they get, like
seeing you in a certain state, or just dragging you into it. Or, there may
be some other reward I can't conceive of.
I wonder if there is any way you can avoid breaking up their fights all the
time. I wonder if you might sit down with them either together or
separately at a time when things are really peaceful and good and tell them
your feelings on the subject: "I love you but I hate all the fighting you
do." Then, you could ask them to brainstorm with you to find solutions to
prevent the fighting. They may come up with nothing at all, but they may
come up with something that totally surprises you. Even if they come up
with nothing at all, you might have planted a seed that would make them
more conscious of the whole thing and they may look for solutions at other
times.
I could be way off the mark here, but I'm getting the impression that this
fighting has become a habit for them, and they may be able to replace it
with something better, if they and you can come up with what that
is. Maybe the solution will just be something like "when I'm feeling angry
towards my brother and I want to hit him, I'm going to go __________ (some
other place)."
I also think about the TV analogy: They may just not have something that's
more interesting to them than fighting with each other. All that putting
them in PS would do would be to remove the amount of time they spend
together, so I wonder if there is a way they can achieve that end by a
different means (which I know you have been trying, but maybe they can
brainstorm on that, too).
Maybe they could come up with a code word that means, "This is
serious: leave me alone right now; I'm about to pop."
These are all goofy suggestions, I know, but they may help them come up
with some better ideas that they would be able to do and feel good
about. I think one of the best things you can do, though, is try to remove
yourself from their dramas. When you're in it, it may become an
unconscious competition for them in a way to prove their case or get you
angry or get your sympathy.
Disclaimer: I am not any kind of expert at all! I only have one kid, but
I did grow up with an older sister and an older brother. But, I have done
a lot of reading and talking and these are things that have occurred to me
based on that and observation.
Love and light,
~marji~
P.S. You probably have already, but have you read the books written by
Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish? They wrote How To Talk So Kids Will Listen
& Listen So Kids Will Talk, which I would recommend for folks who don't
have kids to read, and Siblings Without Rivalry, which I haven't read, but
I'll bet there's some good stuff in there, too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You have my sympathy! And, my empathy. You sound like you're writing from
a spot that's between a rock and a hard place, which is a terrible place to
make a long-term decision from (but a great place to make a short-term
decision!).
I'm absolutely no expert at all here! But, I do have some thoughts on this
which you are free to completely ignore:
There are two things that occurred to me when I was reading your SOS, the
answers you got, and the answers you gave. Here they are, mushed together
in one thought. Lisa had wondered if you had asked them why they are
fighting. You said that their answers are usually pretty basic ("he just
bugs me"). The first thing that struck me was that I wondered if they had
the vocabulary to express what's going on for them. There could be a lot
of reasons for their fighting that they just don't know how to express to
you - or to themselves! But the very first thing I thought when I read
your first message was, "Those guys are getting something out of this
situation." In other words, they may not be hating all this fighting as
much as you do; there may be some kind of unintended reward they get, like
seeing you in a certain state, or just dragging you into it. Or, there may
be some other reward I can't conceive of.
I wonder if there is any way you can avoid breaking up their fights all the
time. I wonder if you might sit down with them either together or
separately at a time when things are really peaceful and good and tell them
your feelings on the subject: "I love you but I hate all the fighting you
do." Then, you could ask them to brainstorm with you to find solutions to
prevent the fighting. They may come up with nothing at all, but they may
come up with something that totally surprises you. Even if they come up
with nothing at all, you might have planted a seed that would make them
more conscious of the whole thing and they may look for solutions at other
times.
I could be way off the mark here, but I'm getting the impression that this
fighting has become a habit for them, and they may be able to replace it
with something better, if they and you can come up with what that
is. Maybe the solution will just be something like "when I'm feeling angry
towards my brother and I want to hit him, I'm going to go __________ (some
other place)."
I also think about the TV analogy: They may just not have something that's
more interesting to them than fighting with each other. All that putting
them in PS would do would be to remove the amount of time they spend
together, so I wonder if there is a way they can achieve that end by a
different means (which I know you have been trying, but maybe they can
brainstorm on that, too).
Maybe they could come up with a code word that means, "This is
serious: leave me alone right now; I'm about to pop."
These are all goofy suggestions, I know, but they may help them come up
with some better ideas that they would be able to do and feel good
about. I think one of the best things you can do, though, is try to remove
yourself from their dramas. When you're in it, it may become an
unconscious competition for them in a way to prove their case or get you
angry or get your sympathy.
Disclaimer: I am not any kind of expert at all! I only have one kid, but
I did grow up with an older sister and an older brother. But, I have done
a lot of reading and talking and these are things that have occurred to me
based on that and observation.
Love and light,
~marji~
P.S. You probably have already, but have you read the books written by
Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish? They wrote How To Talk So Kids Will Listen
& Listen So Kids Will Talk, which I would recommend for folks who don't
have kids to read, and Siblings Without Rivalry, which I haven't read, but
I'll bet there's some good stuff in there, too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
Marji - I don't think they are goofy suggestions or observations
at al! In reading the e-mails I noticed the mentions of a
toddler - and that a fight had broken out while Mom was trying to
get in some time with the toddler. It could well be simple
attention seeking - pick a fight and get Mom's time. Kids (like
adults) aren't too picky about whether the attention they get is
positive or negative when they really want attention. Depending
on what talking to the kids at a calm time yields, a couple of
thoughts were spurred by your suggestions.
First Patti might want to alter her response. Rather than
getting in there and sorting it out for them with lots of
emotional and actual time, she might devise a strategy in advance
to separate them and withdraw. Think of 2 separate, non-punitive
places. When there is a fight, do not address the fight, simply
send each boy to the designated (in her head) place and tell them
not to come out for 15 minutes or until called. Low Mom
contact/involvement - takes away the incentive to fight, if time
and involvement are the incentive.
Second Patti might set up a token economy based on "Mom time."
Our 5 yo craves "Mom time" and "Papa time" more than the other
kids and calls it by name - Mama time or Papa time, which is what
makes me use those terms. That time for her is separate from the
routine of "lots of time together" that is part of our life - it
is time to pick out a special book for reading aloud, over and
above the bed time stories ritual - or to go to see something
that isn't part of the routine - or to move an activity ahead of
where it would fall in a logical critical path plan. Perhaps
Patti can determine how much of that "at your service, dear" time
is feasible for her and dock it with the time she spends breaking
up fights.
On a different front, it is June. Even if the kids want to go to
school, they aren't headed anywhere for at least a couple of
months. There is no reason at all to engage them or Patti in the
school/unschool issue right now. They may be pushing her buttons
with that issue, just for fun. Patti places a value on
unschooling - the boys can take that away from her at will by
rejecting unschooling. What a fun way to pass the time! Just
don't engage on the topic for a while. As in - "Mom, we want to
go to school!" "Fine dear, when school is in, we will talk about
it; right now I have to deal with what you and your brother are
doing right now; John 1 go to "x"; John 2 go to"y"" Calm, quiet,
buttons hidden.
Just a few more thoughts that might work - or might spur some
better ones from some other folks.
at al! In reading the e-mails I noticed the mentions of a
toddler - and that a fight had broken out while Mom was trying to
get in some time with the toddler. It could well be simple
attention seeking - pick a fight and get Mom's time. Kids (like
adults) aren't too picky about whether the attention they get is
positive or negative when they really want attention. Depending
on what talking to the kids at a calm time yields, a couple of
thoughts were spurred by your suggestions.
First Patti might want to alter her response. Rather than
getting in there and sorting it out for them with lots of
emotional and actual time, she might devise a strategy in advance
to separate them and withdraw. Think of 2 separate, non-punitive
places. When there is a fight, do not address the fight, simply
send each boy to the designated (in her head) place and tell them
not to come out for 15 minutes or until called. Low Mom
contact/involvement - takes away the incentive to fight, if time
and involvement are the incentive.
Second Patti might set up a token economy based on "Mom time."
Our 5 yo craves "Mom time" and "Papa time" more than the other
kids and calls it by name - Mama time or Papa time, which is what
makes me use those terms. That time for her is separate from the
routine of "lots of time together" that is part of our life - it
is time to pick out a special book for reading aloud, over and
above the bed time stories ritual - or to go to see something
that isn't part of the routine - or to move an activity ahead of
where it would fall in a logical critical path plan. Perhaps
Patti can determine how much of that "at your service, dear" time
is feasible for her and dock it with the time she spends breaking
up fights.
On a different front, it is June. Even if the kids want to go to
school, they aren't headed anywhere for at least a couple of
months. There is no reason at all to engage them or Patti in the
school/unschool issue right now. They may be pushing her buttons
with that issue, just for fun. Patti places a value on
unschooling - the boys can take that away from her at will by
rejecting unschooling. What a fun way to pass the time! Just
don't engage on the topic for a while. As in - "Mom, we want to
go to school!" "Fine dear, when school is in, we will talk about
it; right now I have to deal with what you and your brother are
doing right now; John 1 go to "x"; John 2 go to"y"" Calm, quiet,
buttons hidden.
Just a few more thoughts that might work - or might spur some
better ones from some other folks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "marji" <zintz@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] SOS!!
| Hey, Patti!
|
| You have my sympathy! And, my empathy. You sound like you're
writing from
| a spot that's between a rock and a hard place, which is a
terrible place to
| make a long-term decision from (but a great place to make a
short-term
| decision!).
joanna514
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Patti <averyp@m...> wrote:
Mazlish?
It could help you very much.
I have an 11yo dd and 8yo ds who like to pick and argue and be pretty
darn mean to each other and sometimes hit each other.
They seem to enjoy it and I realize that I am a huge part of the
dynamics when it starts to get really bad. We sit down and make big
changes and it usually gives them a very unsettled feeling because my
part of the change is to put their behavior back in their hands. I
don't know why , but it seems to be a cycle of them getting along
fine-then starting to fight more often and me trying to intervene-
them fighting more-me starting to yell- then an wake up call
incedent, and a big family discussion and changes. It just happened
here a few of days ago!
I told them not to involve me anymore. If they chose to be rude and
hurtful, not to bring it to me when it got out of control. They can
come to me for help before it gets out of control, but if they have
chosen to let it get to a point that they are hitting and name
calling and eventually crying, I don't want to hear about it.
Basically I was hearing the aftermath or trying to stop something
from forming. It never worked and I was being sucked in. We talked
a lot about alternatives they could choose and ways I could be
helpful IF ASKED. They tested me once or twice after the
conversation, but we haven't had an incedent in a couple of days
now.
This works for my 2 oldest kids. I am more protective of my younger
ones and wouldn't leave them to fend for themselves against their
older siblings. (though there usually isn't much incedent there
anyway) My older 2 understand the consequences of their actions.
When I put it all back on them and they realize that they don't have
me to come running to, they are more wary of starting trouble. My
oldest one also seems to get angry at me for "dropping out of the
game". But I hold strong and it always gets better. I just have to
try to keep vigilant on not getting sucked back in down the road.
I hope things get better. I don't know if you've read the book
above. If you have, maybe skim it again, if not, go get it!
Maybe others have more book suggestions??
Joanna
>up
>
> Lisa Krause wrote:
>
> Hmmm. At least 50/50 I'd say. It's a fine line. Even when they're
> "getting along" they are doing things which are borderline, like
> wrestling. Unfortunately I have a hard time relaxing when they're
> getting along since it can turn at any moment and I'm always tensed
> waiting for it. It's a horrible dynamic, and I can't imagine how toHave you read "Siblings Without Rivalry" by Adele Faber and Elaine
> break out of it.
>
Mazlish?
It could help you very much.
I have an 11yo dd and 8yo ds who like to pick and argue and be pretty
darn mean to each other and sometimes hit each other.
They seem to enjoy it and I realize that I am a huge part of the
dynamics when it starts to get really bad. We sit down and make big
changes and it usually gives them a very unsettled feeling because my
part of the change is to put their behavior back in their hands. I
don't know why , but it seems to be a cycle of them getting along
fine-then starting to fight more often and me trying to intervene-
them fighting more-me starting to yell- then an wake up call
incedent, and a big family discussion and changes. It just happened
here a few of days ago!
I told them not to involve me anymore. If they chose to be rude and
hurtful, not to bring it to me when it got out of control. They can
come to me for help before it gets out of control, but if they have
chosen to let it get to a point that they are hitting and name
calling and eventually crying, I don't want to hear about it.
Basically I was hearing the aftermath or trying to stop something
from forming. It never worked and I was being sucked in. We talked
a lot about alternatives they could choose and ways I could be
helpful IF ASKED. They tested me once or twice after the
conversation, but we haven't had an incedent in a couple of days
now.
This works for my 2 oldest kids. I am more protective of my younger
ones and wouldn't leave them to fend for themselves against their
older siblings. (though there usually isn't much incedent there
anyway) My older 2 understand the consequences of their actions.
When I put it all back on them and they realize that they don't have
me to come running to, they are more wary of starting trouble. My
oldest one also seems to get angry at me for "dropping out of the
game". But I hold strong and it always gets better. I just have to
try to keep vigilant on not getting sucked back in down the road.
I hope things get better. I don't know if you've read the book
above. If you have, maybe skim it again, if not, go get it!
Maybe others have more book suggestions??
Joanna
[email protected]
dear Patti,
It sounds like you are completely burned out and discourged. Sometimes
our attitutes and feelings set a subtle pace in our home. Usually when things
at my house are out of order I can look at myself and see that I created it.
This is a difficult thing for me to admit and it was a good friend that
pointed out the possibiliy because of her own experiences. What we have been
doing is having some stuff special just for moms. A homeschool Moms retreat
and a monthly book club with a dinner. We do this at someones house and each
bring a dish., If kids need to come we hired a sitter to be at the house and
entertain them. this way we can still come if we have our kids and we know
they are safe and we still get to have our time. We each pitch in a couple
of dollars .The kids have fun too.
I know what you mean about fitting in, it took me quite a while to find a
group. I think I was a lot like you in what I did not want.
Try to to hang in there. I think the lesser of two evils is to work
it out.
What about just ignoring all the fighting and don't intervine at all. Just
refuse to hear about the dispute and let them fight it out. At the same time,
not during the fighting, ofer some suggestions on conflict resolution. There
are some great books if you need ideas. Any library should have them.
I personally think keeping them apart is the wrong message, letting them
be together and fight it out is better, they will eventually figure it out.
Anyway, I can feel your frustration so I am just throughing out a few
ideas. I know I do not have any idea of what you are dealing with bu;t
sometimes an outside perspective is helpful.
Best of Luck, you sound like a great Mom
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It sounds like you are completely burned out and discourged. Sometimes
our attitutes and feelings set a subtle pace in our home. Usually when things
at my house are out of order I can look at myself and see that I created it.
This is a difficult thing for me to admit and it was a good friend that
pointed out the possibiliy because of her own experiences. What we have been
doing is having some stuff special just for moms. A homeschool Moms retreat
and a monthly book club with a dinner. We do this at someones house and each
bring a dish., If kids need to come we hired a sitter to be at the house and
entertain them. this way we can still come if we have our kids and we know
they are safe and we still get to have our time. We each pitch in a couple
of dollars .The kids have fun too.
I know what you mean about fitting in, it took me quite a while to find a
group. I think I was a lot like you in what I did not want.
Try to to hang in there. I think the lesser of two evils is to work
it out.
What about just ignoring all the fighting and don't intervine at all. Just
refuse to hear about the dispute and let them fight it out. At the same time,
not during the fighting, ofer some suggestions on conflict resolution. There
are some great books if you need ideas. Any library should have them.
I personally think keeping them apart is the wrong message, letting them
be together and fight it out is better, they will eventually figure it out.
Anyway, I can feel your frustration so I am just throughing out a few
ideas. I know I do not have any idea of what you are dealing with bu;t
sometimes an outside perspective is helpful.
Best of Luck, you sound like a great Mom
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Mabe concentrate and reinforce the 50% of the getting along.
Another good thing is cub scouts. They will each have 8-10 boys just their
age.
I contacted our boy scout office and they knew of a den and pack that was
mostly homeschoolers.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Another good thing is cub scouts. They will each have 8-10 boys just their
age.
I contacted our boy scout office and they knew of a den and pack that was
mostly homeschoolers.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/2/02 8:29:49 AM, Wilkinson6@... writes:
<< I have an 11yo dd and 8yo ds who like to pick and argue and be pretty
darn mean to each other and sometimes hit each other.
They seem to enjoy it >>
It's probable that one is enjoying it more than the other, and perhaps one is
being abused by the other.
< They can
come to me for help before it gets out of control, but if they have
chosen to let it get to a point that they are hitting and name
calling and eventually crying, I don't want to hear about it. >>
My parents raised two cousins of ours. One was horribly mean and felt she
had nothing to lose. She hit the rest of us and the others defended
themselves, but I would just roll up and let her hit me because I felt too
awful to hit her back and it would have just infuriated her. I can't imagine
someone leaving a situation like that going. Kids at home should be safer
than that.
I wouldn't even let strangers wail on each other without intervening, let
alone my own kids. As a kid who was hit by another kid, I have to register
the possibility that one of your children is already in a dangerous situation
and saying "Don't tell me your problems" isn't a momly thing to do if that
could be the case.
An older child won't want to admit fear of a younger one. A boy won't want
to admit fear of a girl.
I could be offbase, but I could be more on than you think. It's possible.
<My
oldest one also seems to get angry at me for "dropping out of the
game". But I hold strong and it always gets better. I just have to
try to keep vigilant on not getting sucked back in down the road.>>
Those children didn't choose to live together, they are stuck with one
another because of parental decisions and actions. Sometimes that's
punishment enough!
Sandra
<< I have an 11yo dd and 8yo ds who like to pick and argue and be pretty
darn mean to each other and sometimes hit each other.
They seem to enjoy it >>
It's probable that one is enjoying it more than the other, and perhaps one is
being abused by the other.
< They can
come to me for help before it gets out of control, but if they have
chosen to let it get to a point that they are hitting and name
calling and eventually crying, I don't want to hear about it. >>
My parents raised two cousins of ours. One was horribly mean and felt she
had nothing to lose. She hit the rest of us and the others defended
themselves, but I would just roll up and let her hit me because I felt too
awful to hit her back and it would have just infuriated her. I can't imagine
someone leaving a situation like that going. Kids at home should be safer
than that.
I wouldn't even let strangers wail on each other without intervening, let
alone my own kids. As a kid who was hit by another kid, I have to register
the possibility that one of your children is already in a dangerous situation
and saying "Don't tell me your problems" isn't a momly thing to do if that
could be the case.
An older child won't want to admit fear of a younger one. A boy won't want
to admit fear of a girl.
I could be offbase, but I could be more on than you think. It's possible.
<My
oldest one also seems to get angry at me for "dropping out of the
game". But I hold strong and it always gets better. I just have to
try to keep vigilant on not getting sucked back in down the road.>>
Those children didn't choose to live together, they are stuck with one
another because of parental decisions and actions. Sometimes that's
punishment enough!
Sandra
KT
>When I was a single working mother of two sons (born two years apart)
>
>I wouldn't even let strangers wail on each other without intervening, let
>alone my own kids. As a kid who was hit by another kid, I have to register
>the possibility that one of your children is already in a dangerous situation
>and saying "Don't tell me your problems" isn't a momly thing to do if that
>could be the case.
>
who were still in school, I instituted a now patently absurd rule that I
would not intervene in their fights, and that if they did choose to
fight, that I didn't want to know about it. I expected this to foster in
them a sense of cooperation and negotiating and getting along.
What began instead was the quiet and frequent victimization of my
trusting and loving younger son by my more experienced and powerful
older son (not sexual and not usually violent, lest anyone should
wonder). I discovered this when the youngest was 14 and no longer in
school and enough healing time had passed for him to be able to tell me
about all the times in which the way things "worked out" was that he
"gave in" under threat of physical harm or tattling.
Since then, I have encouraged them to bring their problems to me, and I
practice hearing what each of them has to say, and relating it back to
the other, concentrating on making sure we're talking about perceptions
and not necessarily facts, and making sure that it all comes down to
each of them taking responsibility for their own actions, regardless.
It's hard work to help them see that we can only control our own
actions, and we always have choice. And it doesn't stick the first
time. In an emotionally charged relationship, it's tempting to say "I
did this because always does that!" But it can't be true. We've even
been working on it this week, with them at almost 20 and 18!
How will they learn to negotiate if they have no model? Who is most
likely to lose when children are left to their own to work out
conflicts? Even James Dobson says you should always protect the younger
or weaker kid. I failed at that for many years. That my younger son
grandly forgives me is no condolence.
I would be consoled if someone else learned from my experience, though.
Tuck
Patti
Hi everyone. I'm at a point right now where I might be signing my kids
up for school in the fall despite years of dedicated unschooling, and
I'm feeling extremely torn and anxious about it and afraid that if they
do go I will regret it. Perhaps you all can talk me out of it, or give
me some alternate advice...
My sons (ages 7 and 9) fight, bicker and torment each other pretty much
constantly- to the point where it's driving my husband and I insane.
I'm not exaggerating when I say that peace is practically nonexistant.
I used to think it was something I was doing wrong as their mother, or
that it was somehow my fault, but I'm no longer sure... I think it's a
combination of the personalities they were born with and the fact that
they spend practically all of their waking hours together and are tired
of each other. An hour or two out of the house alone with me or their
Dad doesn't seem to help... they seem to make up for lost time when
they're back together.
Both of them want more friends that are their *own* friends, not shared
with each other, and I just don't know where to find them, and honestly
I'm tired of trying.
There are only a handful of homeschoolers within a reasonable distance
of us, and they haven't clicked with any of them, nor do they have
anything in common. They basically spend their days watching cartoons,
fighting with each other and complaining "when's it gonna be three
o'clock??"
(when their schooled friends arrive back home in the neighborhood).
I'm feeling extremely discouraged that I'm not living up to what I think
an ideal unschooling family looks like. It would hurt me to see them in
school since I believe in unschooling so much, but I just don't know
what to do at this point.
Family and friends tell my husband and I that they need to go to school,
make different friends, not be stuck alone with each other all the
time. I'm starting to wonder if they're right. :-/
I have more to say, but I have to go break up a fight. Seriously.
Patti
up for school in the fall despite years of dedicated unschooling, and
I'm feeling extremely torn and anxious about it and afraid that if they
do go I will regret it. Perhaps you all can talk me out of it, or give
me some alternate advice...
My sons (ages 7 and 9) fight, bicker and torment each other pretty much
constantly- to the point where it's driving my husband and I insane.
I'm not exaggerating when I say that peace is practically nonexistant.
I used to think it was something I was doing wrong as their mother, or
that it was somehow my fault, but I'm no longer sure... I think it's a
combination of the personalities they were born with and the fact that
they spend practically all of their waking hours together and are tired
of each other. An hour or two out of the house alone with me or their
Dad doesn't seem to help... they seem to make up for lost time when
they're back together.
Both of them want more friends that are their *own* friends, not shared
with each other, and I just don't know where to find them, and honestly
I'm tired of trying.
There are only a handful of homeschoolers within a reasonable distance
of us, and they haven't clicked with any of them, nor do they have
anything in common. They basically spend their days watching cartoons,
fighting with each other and complaining "when's it gonna be three
o'clock??"
(when their schooled friends arrive back home in the neighborhood).
I'm feeling extremely discouraged that I'm not living up to what I think
an ideal unschooling family looks like. It would hurt me to see them in
school since I believe in unschooling so much, but I just don't know
what to do at this point.
Family and friends tell my husband and I that they need to go to school,
make different friends, not be stuck alone with each other all the
time. I'm starting to wonder if they're right. :-/
I have more to say, but I have to go break up a fight. Seriously.
Patti
Patti
> Sign up for homeschool activities or if you do not have a groupIt's true that getting out helps, but unfortunately my kids don't care
> to join for support create your own activites and put it on a calendar
> chart
> that your sons can see and look forward to, ask them for suggestions
> of
> things to do.
to take a drive (usually considerable distance) to meet up with other
homeschoolers, whom we've learned from experience that we generally
don't fit in with- the few that I can find are generally school-at-home,
no sugar/tv, waldorf types. Or else there's the Christian group or two
which are even worse (not that they're Christians, but the attitude
toward children that tends to go with it).
The types of outings they like (skateboard parks, arcade type places)
not only add up financially but are difficult with a busy toddler in
tow. So yes, it helps to get out when possible but that gets exhausting
as well, for other reasons. I'm a homebody, and I like my home to feel
like a haven. I don't want to feel like I need to stay out of it as
much as possible in order to survive.
> I have had great luck in m;y community with job shadowing. IWhat a great idea... I've never thought of this.
> find people with interesting jobs that my son is interested in and
> call them
> and they are very nice about letting him spend the day or part of the
> day
> watching them do their job.
> I do this because I have an only child and I want to keep him excitedWhen I spend one on one time with either of the older boys it's
> and not bored or he does not want to do any school work. Also, he has
> made
> friends in the community of all ages. He has really become quite well
> know
> and it has given a real boust to the homeschooling community.
absolutely amazing how different they are. It's like getting a glimpse
of who they really are, and I remember how much I can enjoy their
company.
And then the moment they're back together it's right back to
silliness/chasing/yelling/teasing, "MOM he hit me!!!" "MOM, he took my
seat!!" "MOM tell him to stop!!!" "MOOOMMMMM!!!!" I tried to take a
few minutes earlier to rock my cranky toddler on the porch swing with a
book while they seemed to be engrossed enough in something to get along
for a few minutes. We were soon interrupted by screams and crying and
I had to run inside to break up a fistfight. I'm absolutely horrified
that they do this, and so sad that my toddler has to see it.
I just don't know what to do anymore. It's to the point where I simply
cannot deal with them being together. I've even tried creating separate
spaces for them in the house and encouraging them to just seek solitude
and do their own thing when they're on each other's nerves, but it
actually seems like they'd *rather* fight than be apart. One will
eventually seek out the other and just start making faces or purposely
doing something annoying. I just don't get it.
Has anyone else gone through this with close in age boys?
> People areUnfortunately, to those close to us (close family and friends) who know
> always impressed and think he is so lucky to be learning this way
> I did not mean to go on and on , but this is such a great
> part of
> our homeschooling
my kids well and how they are with each other, the impression of
home/unschooling isn't good. It looks like homeschooling sucks, as I'm
usually completely frazzled and burned out and desperately looking for a
break. My MIL has actually told me that I should stop being a martyr
already and just put them in school.
I just want to tell them "but you don't understand! Unschooling isn't
*supposed* to be this way! In all the books and magazine articles and
online forums it sounds wonderful!"
My day to day reality just doesn't match the rosy picture, and it's so
frustrating to me.
<sigh>
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Patti
Lisa Krause wrote:
now) but they haven't really led to any real friendships. It's occured
to me that this is because classes of this sort are only once or twice a
week, and the other kids in the class have friends from school who they
see every day. The other kids aren't necessarily looking to meet new
friends in the way my son is. There are mabye 100 students in all at
my son's karate dojo, and he's the only one that doesn't go to school.
It also seems like most of the students there are there because their
parents think it's good for them, not because *they* want to be there,
so that sort of eliminates the idea of finding friends with similar
interests.
His younger brother has thus far had no interest in any classes or clubs
at all.
how they'd like to at least try school so they have some frame of
reference since most of their friends attend, most of the books they
read and movies they watch have a schooly frame of reference, and of
course there's that meeting-new-friends aspect that's appealing to them.
On the other hand they can't imagine sitting still and quiet most of the
day and doing whatever they're told. Mixed feelings all around you
could say.
"getting along" they are doing things which are borderline, like
wrestling. Unfortunately I have a hard time relaxing when they're
getting along since it can turn at any moment and I'm always tensed up
waiting for it. It's a horrible dynamic, and I can't imagine how to
break out of it.
the veteran home/unschoolers so that those of us that are newer at it
wouldn't feel like such failures.
My burnout periods are usually in the dead of winter and during shitty
weather, so this springtime, warm weather burnout is new and, I think,
coming from a deeper place.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> This might sound like a "duh" suggestion, but have youYes. The answer is usually something like "he just bugs me."
> tried asking them why they're fighting so much?
> IfMy 9yo has tried various classes (he's taking a break from karate right
> they want other friends besides each other, could you
> let them pick a couple clubs/sports/whatever to join
> separately?
now) but they haven't really led to any real friendships. It's occured
to me that this is because classes of this sort are only once or twice a
week, and the other kids in the class have friends from school who they
see every day. The other kids aren't necessarily looking to meet new
friends in the way my son is. There are mabye 100 students in all at
my son's karate dojo, and he's the only one that doesn't go to school.
It also seems like most of the students there are there because their
parents think it's good for them, not because *they* want to be there,
so that sort of eliminates the idea of finding friends with similar
interests.
His younger brother has thus far had no interest in any classes or clubs
at all.
> Do they WANT to go to school or is thatIt's a last resort solution pretty much, but they do often talk about
> just the last resort solution you have come to?
how they'd like to at least try school so they have some frame of
reference since most of their friends attend, most of the books they
read and movies they watch have a schooly frame of reference, and of
course there's that meeting-new-friends aspect that's appealing to them.
On the other hand they can't imagine sitting still and quiet most of the
day and doing whatever they're told. Mixed feelings all around you
could say.
> HowHmmm. At least 50/50 I'd say. It's a fine line. Even when they're
> much of the time are they fighting vs getting along?
"getting along" they are doing things which are borderline, like
wrestling. Unfortunately I have a hard time relaxing when they're
getting along since it can turn at any moment and I'm always tensed up
waiting for it. It's a horrible dynamic, and I can't imagine how to
break out of it.
> I'm notThanks for pondering with me. It's exactly what I need to do!
> trying to grill you, just offering some points to
> ponder
> I think a lot of home/unschoolers have burn-outI think so too. I wish it was more openly discussed, especially among
> periods.
the veteran home/unschoolers so that those of us that are newer at it
wouldn't feel like such failures.
My burnout periods are usually in the dead of winter and during shitty
weather, so this springtime, warm weather burnout is new and, I think,
coming from a deeper place.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanna514
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
their children very well. Neither one of mine is the victim. It
would be a true situation if I left my older son and my younger son
alone. My younger would be the victim in a situation like this and I
do step right in if I hear injustice or feel possible violence coming
on. With my older two it is definitely a game of sorts that they try
to drag me into. When times like these happen it is a wake up call.
They do need something from me and or a change in their daily life
and that happens, but I also step out of the "game" and they take
control of themselves. It works. This past problem was picking and
teasing everytime we got in the car.
Sometimes one is feeling jealous of the other because of attention
they are getting (my son is a very good soccer player and
grandparents have been raving. My dd loves theater and she is
the "star" during productions....) We work all of these things out.
We talk. We live together.
My kids are extremely passionate, highly active and a force to be
reckoned with. Nothing is simple when it comes to them, but they
sure make life interesting!
Joanna
>pretty
> In a message dated 6/2/02 8:29:49 AM, Wilkinson6@m... writes:
>
> << I have an 11yo dd and 8yo ds who like to pick and argue and be
> darn mean to each other and sometimes hit each other.perhaps one is
> They seem to enjoy it >>
>
> It's probable that one is enjoying it more than the other, and
> being abused by the other.I think that is a likelyhood of parents that don't live with and know
>
>
their children very well. Neither one of mine is the victim. It
would be a true situation if I left my older son and my younger son
alone. My younger would be the victim in a situation like this and I
do step right in if I hear injustice or feel possible violence coming
on. With my older two it is definitely a game of sorts that they try
to drag me into. When times like these happen it is a wake up call.
They do need something from me and or a change in their daily life
and that happens, but I also step out of the "game" and they take
control of themselves. It works. This past problem was picking and
teasing everytime we got in the car.
Sometimes one is feeling jealous of the other because of attention
they are getting (my son is a very good soccer player and
grandparents have been raving. My dd loves theater and she is
the "star" during productions....) We work all of these things out.
We talk. We live together.
> Those children didn't choose to live together, they are stuck withone
> another because of parental decisions and actions. Sometimesthat's
> punishment enough!And they remind me of that when they are not getting along! <g>
>
> Sandra
My kids are extremely passionate, highly active and a force to be
reckoned with. Nothing is simple when it comes to them, but they
sure make life interesting!
Joanna
Patti
Thanks for the support and suggestions everyone.
Yes, I have read Siblings Without Rivalry and will read it again... I
keep meaning to pull it out.
marji wrote:
"MOOOOMMMM!!!!" One will needle the other until the other hits or
pushes, then the original antagonizer yells for me and acts like a
victim. They will both actually try to outdo each other after I break
up a fight- exaggerating their "injuries" and trying to outcry each
other. Like whoever I feel the most sorry for wins. Today one of them
caused the other to fall, and the faller *insisted* that his ankle was
sprained or broken and that he couldn't walk. Within minutes he was
running around perfectly fine, and they were laughing and playing again.
Here are some common scenarios:
Older brother is absorbed in something quiet. Younger brother notices
and decides to purposely do something to get in his way or make loud
irritating noises. Older brother tells him to move it. Younger
brother says "I don't have to if I don't want to." Older brother tells
him again to move. Younger brother does not. Older brother shoves
younger brother out of the way. Younger brother falls down dramatically
and screams his head off. I've responded to this scenario in a variety
of ways from ignoring it (feels wrong) to walking in and sympathizing
(feels like stepping into the role they're designing for me) to acting
disgusted ("oh please! How can I feel sorry for you when you got
exactly what you were looking for?") None of these approaches have
helped in the least.
Another common scenario is wrestling or having a pillow fight, insisting
that they want to do it and are having fun. Invariably someone ends up
crying because someone does something too hard.
They chase each other around, sometimes laughing, sometimes crying.
They slam doors on each other, sometimes laughing and sometimes crying.
Younger brother hit older brother with a fly swatter today, out of the
blue, for no apparent reason, followed by chasing and screams of "I'M
GONNA GET YOU!" from older brother. More door slamming doors.
There were various other similar scenarios throughout the day.
It's just the four of us here... their Dad won't be home until late
tonight.
We tried calling the couple of good friends they have to break up the
intense togetherness, but they weren't available. (More friend options
would help- especially if they had different ones- but where to find
them?) And we did get out for quite a while, but they just picked on
each other while we were out (and in the car, and in the restaurant
waiting for our take out...)
I can honestly say I've never seen anything quite like it.
strong and capable of really hurting each other. Plus it upsets their
baby brother. I feel like I simply have to break it up.
The times I've tried just letting them go at it (like when I'm *truly*
at the end of my tether) they just escalate until I feel like I have no
choice but to do something.
"pop." They seem to find it more entertaining than anything else
available. And it's not like they have nothing else to choose from.
Our house is brimming with things to do- their schooled friends never
want to leave when they spend time here.
them both safe? How to create a peaceful environment for all of us, and
especially my 3yo, with this craziness going on all the time?
Thanks again.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, I have read Siblings Without Rivalry and will read it again... I
keep meaning to pull it out.
marji wrote:
> In other words, they may not be hating all this fighting asI think this is a big part of it. They *love* to have a reason to yell
> much as you do; there may be some kind of unintended reward they get,
> like
> seeing you in a certain state, or just dragging you into it.
"MOOOOMMMM!!!!" One will needle the other until the other hits or
pushes, then the original antagonizer yells for me and acts like a
victim. They will both actually try to outdo each other after I break
up a fight- exaggerating their "injuries" and trying to outcry each
other. Like whoever I feel the most sorry for wins. Today one of them
caused the other to fall, and the faller *insisted* that his ankle was
sprained or broken and that he couldn't walk. Within minutes he was
running around perfectly fine, and they were laughing and playing again.
Here are some common scenarios:
Older brother is absorbed in something quiet. Younger brother notices
and decides to purposely do something to get in his way or make loud
irritating noises. Older brother tells him to move it. Younger
brother says "I don't have to if I don't want to." Older brother tells
him again to move. Younger brother does not. Older brother shoves
younger brother out of the way. Younger brother falls down dramatically
and screams his head off. I've responded to this scenario in a variety
of ways from ignoring it (feels wrong) to walking in and sympathizing
(feels like stepping into the role they're designing for me) to acting
disgusted ("oh please! How can I feel sorry for you when you got
exactly what you were looking for?") None of these approaches have
helped in the least.
Another common scenario is wrestling or having a pillow fight, insisting
that they want to do it and are having fun. Invariably someone ends up
crying because someone does something too hard.
They chase each other around, sometimes laughing, sometimes crying.
They slam doors on each other, sometimes laughing and sometimes crying.
Younger brother hit older brother with a fly swatter today, out of the
blue, for no apparent reason, followed by chasing and screams of "I'M
GONNA GET YOU!" from older brother. More door slamming doors.
There were various other similar scenarios throughout the day.
It's just the four of us here... their Dad won't be home until late
tonight.
We tried calling the couple of good friends they have to break up the
intense togetherness, but they weren't available. (More friend options
would help- especially if they had different ones- but where to find
them?) And we did get out for quite a while, but they just picked on
each other while we were out (and in the car, and in the restaurant
waiting for our take out...)
I can honestly say I've never seen anything quite like it.
> I wonder if there is any way you can avoid breaking up their fightsThe only reason I can't do this (not break up a fight) is that they're
> all the
> time.
strong and capable of really hurting each other. Plus it upsets their
baby brother. I feel like I simply have to break it up.
The times I've tried just letting them go at it (like when I'm *truly*
at the end of my tether) they just escalate until I feel like I have no
choice but to do something.
> Maybe they could come up with a code word that means, "This isBut that seems to be their whole point. They *want* to make each other
> serious: leave me alone right now; I'm about to pop."
"pop." They seem to find it more entertaining than anything else
available. And it's not like they have nothing else to choose from.
Our house is brimming with things to do- their schooled friends never
want to leave when they spend time here.
> I think one of the best things you can do, though, is try to removeDefinitely a big part of it. But how to remove myself and also keep
> yourself from their dramas. When you're in it, it may become an
> unconscious competition for them in a way to prove their case or get
> you
> angry or get your sympathy.
them both safe? How to create a peaceful environment for all of us, and
especially my 3yo, with this craziness going on all the time?
Thanks again.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
alaurashome
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Patti <averyp@m...> wrote:
They *want* to make each other
> "pop." They seem to find it more entertaining than anything else
> available. And it's not like they have nothing else to choose
from.
> Our house is brimming with things to do- their schooled friends
never
> want to leave when they spend time here.
>
My children play happily together and I let them. When they start
fighting, it gets my attention and I suddenly remember all of the
chores that need to be done.
They have slowly learned that solving their disagreements without
yelling or hitting is more fun than washing floors or pulling weeds.
Alaura