[email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/99 3:43:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Marbleface@... writes:

<< Math is the fun stuff - the games and theories and intuitive connections
and
leaps of logic and insight. Arithmetic is the boring stuff - memorizing in
a
disconnected way. >>

I am starting to wonder if somehow it could all be fun stuff in the right
context. It seems to me that what is being taught in school has had all the
life and joy sucked out of it.
For three days now my kids have been getting along so good and have been
going off to do their own things, draw, remote control car, etc. This all
seems so right and I do believe they are just beginning to develop a little
bit of themselves. However I find that I constantly have to go through some
process in my own head to get to a point where I know they are learning and
developing as they should. Boy this is hard after years of conditioning.

Laura

Randy's Mail

Hello everyone,

My name is Randy Smith and this is my first post to this group. I
appreciate the owner(s) having such a list for us all to meet and share
ideas, resources and concerns. And one concern many of us have if we
approach the concept of unschooling is what Laura is voicing now. How
*does* one know if our children are developing and learning as they should?

Now I know there are about as many answers to this question as there are
opinions, but that only highlights the inevitability that most of us will
face this insecurity more than once in our children's short time with us.

One thing we have done to help our nervous feeling in this area is to
combine many state's standards and the national standards into a set of
watermarks for us to keep an eye on as our children develop and learn.

Please don't use this post to start a political debate on why the state
should or should not have any particular rights in this area; or that this
is really not unschooling or any of that. We are not anti-school,
anit-unschool, anti-homeschool, etc. But we are pro-family and
pro-learning. We combine an enormous array of resources into our learning
experiences and a lot of what we do (or don't do) falls into an unschooling
approach to learning.

I am just saying that we were very concerned when we started this process
several years ago about how we would know that our children would be able to
compete in the next century with their peers from around the world. So we
educated ourselves about what *they* say our children ought to know. And we
have kept a close eye to make sure that our children are measuring up or
exceeding these standards educationally. This gives us a certain level of
comfort we that we felt we needed.

Thanks - RJS

Sandy Kent

From: "Randy's Mail" <rjs@...>

I am just saying that we were very concerned when we started this process
several years ago about how we would know that our children would be able to
compete in the next century with their peers from around the world. So we
educated ourselves about what *they* say our children ought to know. And we
have kept a close eye to make sure that our children are measuring up or
exceeding these standards educationally. This gives us a certain level of
comfort we that we felt we needed.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would be very much interested in how you find out what are educational requirements in other countries since American standards are so low. I have been unsuccessful in finding anything of that sort.

Another question: do you think that fulfilling those requirements which is usually checked by passing an exam, guarantees good education?
If not, maybe such comparisons do not make much sense.
If so, how come Americans still seem to be awarded the most Nobel Prices per capita?

Do not get me wrong, I am also very concerned and worried that maybe we are not learning enough and maybe we are missing some opportunities. Child lead learning is fine but a child may not always know where to lead if we do not expose her/him to all areas of knowledge.
At the same time I am beginning to think that maybe it is not all in the amount of knowledge one possesses. That would be good for Jeopardy only and that is what school tests are, Jeopardy in disguise. Now knowledge plus creativity, or the ability to utilize that knowledge to me is what counts.

Just a few thoughts,
Sandy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/99 6:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rjs@... writes:

<< How
*does* one know if our children are developing and learning as they should?
>>

I guess in a way I'm saying this but also much, much more. How do we know
that what has been laid out ahead of us as far as "what they should know" is
what "our" children should know? For instance one of my kids really wants to
be an auto mechanic, he loves cars and anything to do with them. He's also
old enough to start pursuing this (17). If we would have been free to explore
more of his interests and abilities when he was much younger he could be far
ahead of where he is now or have had enough hands on experience to know he
wanted to pursue some other area of automotive. This is just the first
example that came to my mind and by no means encompasses all I am thinking of
at this time.
But, alas time for me has run out. We are going out of town for a day. Talk
to all of you when I return.
Peace, Laura

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/99 2:10:25 PM, rjs@... writes:

<<How

*does* one know if our children are developing and learning as they should?


Now I know there are about as many answers to this question as there are

opinions, but that only highlights the inevitability that most of us will

face this insecurity more than once in our children's short time with us.


One thing we have done to help our nervous feeling in this area is to

combine many state's standards and the national standards into a set of

watermarks for us to keep an eye on as our children develop and learn.>>

I'm going out tonight to sip tea, eat pie, and discuss this very question
with my friends.

I have a collection of those E. D. Hirsch books, _What Your X Grader Needs to
Know_, and I peek at them from time to time, but I don't give them power over
my life.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/99 10:47:14 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
kentsx3@... writes:

<< I am just saying that we were very concerned when we started this process
several years ago about how we would know that our children would be able
to
compete in the next century with their peers from around the world. So we
educated ourselves about what *they* say our children ought to know. And
we
have kept a close eye to make sure that our children are measuring up or
exceeding these standards educationally. This gives us a certain level of
comfort we that we felt we needed.


------------------------------------------------------------------ >>

I agree and have done much the same thing.

We may or may not become more un as we homeschool. But I do know what is
(and is not) going on at the local ps. Perhaps not something I need to know,
but it makes me feel better.

"Each to his own," said Paddy as he kissed the pig.

Take care.

Nance

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/99 5:47:05 PM EST, kentsx3@... writes:

<< At the same time I am beginning to think that maybe it is not all in the
amount of knowledge one possesses. That would be good for Jeopardy only and
that is what school tests are, Jeopardy in disguise. Now knowledge plus
creativity, or the ability to utilize that knowledge to me is what counts. >>

I agree 100 % with this. Now that I am an adult I realize any knowledge I
don't use on a regular basis, as long as I know where to find the
information, I get along just fine. For example, I have never taken a
computer course yet I have gathered all the information neccessary to do what
I need to do with it, as I assume most of you have done. The retention of
knowledge just doesn't seem important in the overall scheme of education;
understanding and creativity are much more important to me as well.
Blessings, Lori in TX

Randy's Mail

Sandy,

>> I would be very much interested in how you find out what are educational requirements in other countries since American standards are so >> low. I have been unsuccessful in finding anything of that sort.

I did not mean to imply that we have the standards for other countries. We have been so busy just getting the standards for various states and finding supporting materials that we have not looked for standards for other countries yet. I believe I saw some for England yesterday but have not had a chance to take a close look yet.



>> Another question: do you think that fulfilling those requirements which is usually checked by passing an exam, guarantees good education?
>> If not, maybe such comparisons do not make much sense.
>> If so, how come Americans still seem to be awarded the most Nobel Prices per capita?

The standards that we have found are most hard, cold academic standards. Some are very difficult to decipher what the authors might be looking for. And you are correct--usually one would think the only way to check a child's ability to measure up to the standards would be to test him or her. But I don't go much for that. I believe that if I interact with them on the learning enough, I will know where they are pretty much. Often we will make up a set of questions before an activity, field trip or movie and have the children answer them. Sometimes we do it verbally, sometimes they must write there answers, sometimes in group and sometimes separately. Then we will interactively do the activity, take the field trip or watch the movie and we will give the same or similar set of questions to answer. We discuss it all. These types of activities, etc. are often tied to one extent or other to an area of learning we feel they might not be progressing well enough in. So we know where they are in relation to where we think they should be without any formal testing. We never have a pass or fail or grade or any of that nonsense. If they know, we give them love and praise, If they do not know, we give them love and help.



>> If not, maybe such comparisons do not make much sense.

The way most testing is done, I do not believe that passing a test proves one has learned any particular material. I have never been comfortable with the artificial importance given to grades and tests. Tests in most settings are to state that one has passed or failed in a certain area. And to what extent one has passed or failed. But all of this comparison of having learned a particular fact or not seems like a bit of nonsense to me. I do not think we should compare children's learning with each other so much as we should simply check where they are in relation to the material we think they ought to learn. And then only so we can help them. This is not a pass or fail situation. It is life! To me, tests are just tools for us to use to see where we can help. Unless we are force by some law to have our children tested, or unless they feel like they want to be formally tested for college or something, we will not bother with it.



>> If so, how come Americans still seem to be awarded the most Nobel Prices per capita?

I am sorry, I do not see what you are saying here. But I do not think that our wonderful melting pot of people win so many Nobel Prices because of having been tested somewhere along the line. Certainly comparisons at many points in our lives are inevitable and necessary. I am sure these folks that have to decide who gets a particular Nobel Prize have to do a lot of comparing of the potential winners. But that is not the same as comparing one child against another for having learned a particular fact or not--right?



>> Do not get me wrong, I am also very concerned and worried that maybe we are not learning enough and maybe we are missing some
>> opportunities. Child lead learning is fine but a child may not always know where to lead if we do not expose her/him to all areas of
>> knowledge.

Well, of course, a child can not be expected to lead in areas they do not know about. It is our job to know if we can or find out if we don't. At least when they are younger. But a child will usually be able to lead us in a direction by his or her interests. I remember one time we were in the pool with my oldest son (11 now) and he saw a beautiful sail boat go by on the Intercoastal Waterway. He asked what kind of boat it was and I told him. He asked what those big things were sticking up out of it and why it did not tip over and where was the motor and... a lot more questions. So we went with that for a while. We assisted him in asking some neighbors if he could come aboard and take a look at their boats (human relations, self-esteem, responsibility, planning, execution). There is a lot more to this but I am running too long already. I know you get the picture anyway.



>> At the same time I am beginning to think that maybe it is not all in the amount of knowledge one possesses. That would be good for
>> Jeopardy only and that is what school tests are, Jeopardy in disguise. Now knowledge plus creativity, or the ability to utilize that knowledge >> to me is what counts.


Knowledge is similar to money: the more you have, the more options you have. Neither make you a better or worse person. Both just make you more of what you are.



Thanks - RJS

Randy's Mail

> For example, I have never taken a
> computer course yet I have gathered all the information necessary to do
what
> I need to do with it, as I assume most of you have done. The retention of
> knowledge just doesn't seem important in the overall scheme of education;
> understanding and creativity are much more important to me as well.

I applaud you for educating yourself about computers. I did the same thing.
You learned enough to do what you need to do and that is what most of us
ought to do. I went on with it because it fit nicely into what I really
wanted to as an occupation. So, without taking a course, I became a
software engineer. I now get paid very well for programming major systems
for a Fortune 500 company.

Now if you and I forgot everything we worked so hard to learn every time we
can back to the computer, that would be a real chore wouldn't it? We
remember most of it and are able to function without looking up the obvious
in a book or somewhere, even though we may know where it is. What I am
saying is that there is a definite benefit to acquiring knowledge that you
do not have to look up and I think you would agree with that. I think we
would also agree that just filling our heads with "facts" because "they" say
so is not right.

I think it is my job as a dad to try to keep track of where I think the
world is going and to plan and live in such a way that I can help my
children prepare for a productive life in that world. It is just as
important, I think, to be always aware of my children's capabilities and
interests, and to try to fashion an environment where I can use their
talents, interests and creativity to help them glean the learning which will
then help them prepare to achieve whatever goals they might set for
themselves. As you say, this does not mean just filling their heads with
facts they can look up, but I think it does mean [them] filling their heads
with enough so they can have understanding and take advantage of their own
innate creativity.

-- RJS

Randy's Mail

> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>
>
> I agree and have done much the same thing.
>
> We may or may not become more un as we homeschool. But I do know what is
> (and is not) going on at the local ps. Perhaps not something I need to
know,
> but it makes me feel better.
>
> "Each to his own," said Paddy as he kissed the pig.
>
> Take care.
>
> Nance
>


You are so right. Knowledge gives us options and can lead to understanding.

-- RJS

Randy's Mail

> I'm going out tonight to sip tea, eat pie, and discuss this very question
> with my friends.
>
> I have a collection of those E. D. Hirsch books, _What Your X Grader Needs
to
> Know_, and I peek at them from time to time, but I don't give them power
over
> my life.
>
> Betsy
>


I hope the pie and tea tasted good--but how can that miss :) We have those
books also and they are pretty good depending on who you ask. We are just
parents and, while that is no trivial job, it does not automatically make us
experts on the academic standards our children might ought to strive for at
any particular age. Of course, the credentials of the folks making some of
the standards do not overly impress me either. Still, these folks spend an
enormous amount of time, money and effort studying such things. The
information is available and it gives me more information on what "they"
say. Since my children will have to live in a world with people who have
gone through a variety of educational systems, I do not see how it can hurt
for me to keep aware of what others may be held to (to some degree or
other).

But you are right: we should not give any of it power over our lives and we
certainly don't allow artificial academic standards to dictate our learning
environment.

-- RJS

Sandy Kent

Now this seems like an impossible task. I for one have no way of telling which way the world is going to go in 10-20 years when my child starts productive life. Now it seems we have had a couple of decades of information age. Molecular biology, gene manipulation can be the next trend but who knows. The only good skill one can have these days is an ability to learn new skills.

Sandy
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy's Mail
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: Life learning was-- [Unschooling-dotcom] Math Question


I think it is my job as a dad to try to keep track of where I think the
world is going and to plan and live in such a way that I can help my
children prepare for a productive life in that world. -- RJS

Randy's Mail

Sometimes parenting seems like an impossible task also. Just when you think you are getting it, something else comes up. It is a constant path of small adjustments like going to the moon. Trying to keep track of where we think things are going is like this too. But we feel it is important for us to do so as it helps us adjust our learning a bit.

I agree with you that having the self-confidence to know you can learn new skills when necessary is invaluable.

-- RJS

[email protected]

In the Charlotte Mason method of education, "narration" is used to find
what the children know. Here is a simplified, brief example.
Family spends day at the zoo. Starting with the youngest child, parent
says, tell me about your day at the zoo. When youngest child is
finished, next youngest child tells about her day at the zoo. And so on.
At first, children may say only a few words. With practice (and if they
know you are listening to them and care about what they say) their
answers will get longer. This narration can be used following any
activity and after reading as well. Do not correct them, interupt them
or try to change their answer. They will be telling you what they
noticed and remembered, i.e., WHAT THEY LEARNED. And isn't one of the
corner stones of unschooling that children will learn what they need to
learn?
Charlotte Mason was not an unschooler. As children got older, they
were required to write these narrations. She also believed in the
importance of nature study and had children keep nature journals, with
sketches and writing.
Mary Ellen
If you want to do everything yourself,
insist on being the only one who can do it right.

>>From: "Randy's Mail" <rjs@...>
>>Often we will make up a set of questions before an activity, field trip
or movie and have the children answer them.>>
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[email protected]

In a message dated 10/14/99 5:34:05 AM, rjs@... writes:

<<Of course, the credentials of the folks making some of the standards do not
overly impress me either.. >>

I agree. On close examination, curriculum creation is probably more like
sausage-making than science. :-)

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/99 8:30:39 PM EST, ECSamHill@... writes:

<< I have a collection of those E. D. Hirsch books, _What Your X Grader Needs
to
Know_, and I peek at them from time to time, but I don't give them power
over
my life. >>
Betsy,
I LOVE these books, they give brief coverage to all kinds of subjects, and
lead you to explore more if the kids want to. They also tell me my kids are
way above! hehehe! The boys enjoy them too, and that really works!
Teresa