Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

Hi all,
It's been a few months since I had my anxiety phase regarding my 7.5 yo
lerning to read. She said she wanted to learn so we got 'Teach You Child to
Read in 100 Easy lessons', which ahd been recommended by someone here and
other HSers. Well, dd doesn't like the drill.
She argues and refuses to cooperate with lessons. Because I think she needs
to be interested to get something out of it, we'll put it away and try
again off and on, picking up where we were. And trying to do other reading
activities.
Well, for a few weeks she has shown little interest in working on
reading. Last night we pulled out a very simple book (Pumpkin Pumkin),
which she could read well a year ago. She couldn't to get past the second
word! I'm a little frustrated with what looks like serious regression here!
the other part of what's going on here is that her friend, 7.25 yo,
visited last night and began talking about books she's reading for her
Accelerated reading program at school. (This girl attended a VERY small
private school for 3 yrs, which was a lot like a more formal HS program -
they used PACES). Anyway, my dd isn't even reading some of the simple
books! Another PS neighbor keeps asking if she can read yet because he can
read some now. He's a yr younger; and his mother pressures him BIG time to
read.
So anyway, I have this bright daughter, who's always been
developmentally 'ahead' in language skills.
I know everyone says to be patient, but I wonder if we should be doing
something else to encourage her reading.
I guess I also think her unschooling will 'fly' once she's reading.
Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
Suz
Breathing deeply....

A. Yates

Keep breathing deeply, and don't listen to anyone but your daughter. Not even
yourself sometimes! :)
I have a 7yos, and he isn't reading at all. He can only recognize his name and
maybe his brothers. He loves books with a passion though, and loves to be read
too. Try not to worry, and I'll do the same.
Ann

"Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst" wrote:

> From: "Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
>
> Hi all,
> It's been a few months since I had my anxiety phase regarding my 7.5 yo
> lerning to read. She said she wanted to learn so we got 'Teach You Child to
> Read in 100 Easy lessons', which ahd been recommended by someone here and
> other HSers. Well, dd doesn't like the drill.
> She argues and refuses to cooperate with lessons. Because I think she needs
> to be interested to get something out of it, we'll put it away and try
> again off and on, picking up where we were. And trying to do other reading
> activities.
> Well, for a few weeks she has shown little interest in working on
> reading. Last night we pulled out a very simple book (Pumpkin Pumkin),
> which she could read well a year ago. She couldn't to get past the second
> word! I'm a little frustrated with what looks like serious regression here!
> the other part of what's going on here is that her friend, 7.25 yo,
> visited last night and began talking about books she's reading for her
> Accelerated reading program at school. (This girl attended a VERY small
> private school for 3 yrs, which was a lot like a more formal HS program -
> they used PACES). Anyway, my dd isn't even reading some of the simple
> books! Another PS neighbor keeps asking if she can read yet because he can
> read some now. He's a yr younger; and his mother pressures him BIG time to
> read.
> So anyway, I have this bright daughter, who's always been
> developmentally 'ahead' in language skills.
> I know everyone says to be patient, but I wonder if we should be doing
> something else to encourage her reading.
> I guess I also think her unschooling will 'fly' once she's reading.
> Any thoughts?
> Thanks in advance,
> Suz
> Breathing deeply....
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/30/99 4:37:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fuerst@...
writes:

<< So anyway, I have this bright daughter, who's always been
developmentally 'ahead' in language skills.
I know everyone says to be patient, but I wonder if we should be doing
something else to encourage her reading.
I guess I also think her unschooling will 'fly' once she's reading.
Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance, >>

On one hand I am having some of the same concerns you are. My 8yro seems
to have done a backslide in some areas from last year when he was in a
private school.
He can read and I do have him read to me daily but he acts as though he can't
write because he can't spell anything. His writing is usually very sloppy
also. I worry that because I'm not pushing him in this area he will never
learn how to write well.
OTOH my 11yro did not learn to read until he was 9. Today he reads very
well although he still doesn't want to read much.(or write) I read to both of
them daily. I had to listen to the questions and worried. He just was not
going to read until he wanted to. I could tell because he would just refuse
to even look at the book. He is still that way today and I have to be careful
about anything that looks contrived. Don't know if this helps, but you're
not alone.

Laura

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/30/99 4:59:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
hooperck@... writes:

<< I have a 7yos, and he isn't reading at all. He can only recognize his
name and
maybe his brothers. He loves books with a passion though, and loves to be
read
too. Try not to worry, and I'll do the same.
Ann >>

I want to add that my son has excellent comprehension and remembers so
much of what I read to him. I think we all get so caught up in the what they
are supposed to do at a certain age thing that we miss what they can do. Out
of six, four of my boys had trouble learning to read. The school's never knew
what to do either so most of the pressure fell on us to do something.
With the 11yro. I read and read to him and still do. Somehow the idea is
put across that if they can't so it for themselves it is not as valuable. I
once bought into this but not now. I still read to him and 8yro and will as
long as they will listen.
In doing so I can expose them to books they might not read on their own.
I have direct input into what I want them to explore. So much learning takes
place while we read together. We discuss words, phrases, figure of speech,
implied meaning,etc. All of this is woven in painlessly. I can also read
above their reading level but within their listening level and I even stretch
that at times. I always stop reading something that they say they can't
follow.
My son was telling me last night of a neighbor reading to her boys. I
told him I didn't know she read to them. (I know she wasn't before from
conversation) "Oh, they copied off of us" he told me. Made my day!!!

Laura

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/30/99 2:59:25 PM CST, hooperck@... writes:

<< I have a 7yos, and he isn't reading at all. He can only recognize his
name and
maybe his brothers. He loves books with a passion though, and loves to be
read
too. Try not to worry, and I'll do the same. >>

I have a 6 Y O D, same scenario. She is getting frustrated now about not
being able to read on her own because her brother is giving her a bit of a
hard time about it. So, I am crossing my fingers...and holding my breath!
Lori in TX

A. Yates

It is nice to know there are others out there.
Really I think that our kids are just fine. They will read when ready. Its
just us and the brainwashing that we endured. (and still do)
Lets help each other to be patient. It isn't easy!! :)
Ann

RRAINENJ@... wrote:

> From: RRAINENJ@...
>
> In a message dated 10/30/99 2:59:25 PM CST, hooperck@... writes:
>
> << I have a 7yos, and he isn't reading at all. He can only recognize his
> name and
> maybe his brothers. He loves books with a passion though, and loves to be
> read
> too. Try not to worry, and I'll do the same. >>
>
> I have a 6 Y O D, same scenario. She is getting frustrated now about not
> being able to read on her own because her brother is giving her a bit of a
> hard time about it. So, I am crossing my fingers...and holding my breath!
> Lori in TX
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

Lisa Bugg

> From: "Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
>
> Hi all,
> It's been a few months since I had my anxiety phase regarding my 7.5 yo
> lerning to read. She said she wanted to learn so we got 'Teach You Child
to
> Read in 100 Easy lessons', which ahd been recommended by someone here and
> other HSers. Well, dd doesn't like the drill.
> She argues and refuses to cooperate with lessons. Because I think she
needs
> to be interested to get something out of it, we'll put it away and try
> again off and on, picking up where we were. >

This is good, no need to frustrate everyone

<, And trying to do other reading
> activities.>>
What other kind?

> Well, for a few weeks she has shown little interest in working on
> reading. Last night we pulled out a very simple book (Pumpkin Pumkin),
> which she could read well a year ago. She couldn't to get past the second
> word! I'm a little frustrated with what looks like serious regression
here!

Remember when they were toddlers... they'd take two steps forward and one
step back. This is normal. Espeically if she is feeling pressured.

> the other part of what's going on here is that her friend, 7.25 yo,
> visited last night and began talking about books she's reading for her
> Accelerated reading program at school. (This girl attended a VERY small
> private school for 3 yrs, which was a lot like a more formal HS
program -
> they used PACES). Anyway, my dd isn't even reading some of the simple
> books! Another PS neighbor keeps asking if she can read yet because he
can
> read some now. He's a yr younger; and his mother pressures him BIG time
to
> read.

Sounds like she's feeling a bit of pressure too. You have to assure her
that it will come in her own time. If she's picking up from you, that you
wish she could read and she can't...well, the only option for her is to feel
badly or scared.


> So anyway, I have this bright daughter, who's always been
> developmentally 'ahead' in language skills.
> I know everyone says to be patient, but I wonder if we should be
doing
> something else to encourage her reading.

Do you want to encourage her to keep trying to learn or are you thinking
that you should be making her practice.. these are two different things.
>
I guess I also think her unschooling will 'fly' once she's reading.
> Any thoughts?

I agree, when she's ready it will fly. I had one child memorizing and paying
attention to words and letters for years.. it didn't click until this
summer. He's 9.75, 10 in January. I have another child who is 7.5 years
old... he doesn't even know all of the alphabet. My dh says he can read
some words and even can sound out some things, but I've never heard him.

> Breathing deeply....
This is the smartest thing you can do. :) Also, don't let those other
children talk about their reading without piping up about things your
daughter is doing that they are not. It will do both children a world of
good to hear that not everyone is the same and isn't it wonderful that both
of them can develop in the way that's best for them.

I would also talk to her and ask if she's putting pressure on herself to get
this done. Is she reacting to the subtle (maybe not so subtle) idea that she
should really be getting it by now and something just might be wrong with
her???

Tell us about the games you play together and maybe we can brainstorm new
things to expose her to. (I'm late with this, you all might be well beyond
this. I actually stayed off the computer for 15 straight hours. <G>)

Lisa
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

Linda Sternhill Davis

Dear Suz,

I know you'll probably get a number of responses to your posting, but I
wanted to step forward from my lurking position within this Listserv to
provide my support.

My daughter underwent similar challenges with reading when she was your
daughter's age. I trusted my instincts and also received confirmation from
helpful "experts" at that time. I have ultimately learned that one of the
greatest gifts my daughter has received from homeschooling is not feeling
pressured or rushed to learn how to read. As a teenager, she now loves to
awaken to new adventures and to life-long learning through this marvelous,
acquired skill.

As with crawling, walking, talking, etc., each child is developmentally
ready to master certain skills when their brains (and other body parts!) are
ready. Reading is a similar skill. Before a child can read, s/he often
needs to perform larger movements with their body. Some helpful exercises
that we did together in fun ways are: (1) Have your dd write alphabet
letters, shapes, etc. with large, non-permanent chalk and markers (when
applicable) on big chalkboards, whiteboards, sidewalks, etc. She can
imitate the letter(s) you draw, or create them on her own. This involves
her large motor skills and the left-brain/right-brain connections are
eventually made with greater ease. (2) Fill a cookie sheet with a thin
layer of sand, salt, sugar, flour (or whatever!) and have her use her
finger(s) or utensils to draw alphabet letters (and eventually words) in the
tactile stuff. (3) You (or another loved one or friend) can draw letters,
etc. on your dd's back with an index or other finger and have her feel what
is being drawn. Eventually, you can draw more letters, until short words
are spelled. (4) Carving alphabet letters (or purchasing some from
teachers' supplies stores) from sponges, sandpaper, or other textured
materials can be a fun, tactile activity. Using cookie and other dough is
also helpful and creative. These letters can be arranged to make small
words, etc. (5) Have your dd make her own books. Collate paper and even
make covers with construction paper or other materials. She can draw
pictures (illustrations) under which you add printed words, which are
dictated to you by her. This can lead to having her draw the pictures and
dictate the wording, but having you draw dots for each letter, which she
fills in. Rhyming books are especially helpful. Kids seem to like the
cadence, etc. It's also easier to re-read a rhyming piece. "Sam sat. Sam
is a rat." was one of my dd's first projects. She was so proud of her
efforts! <nostalgic sigh> (6) Do cross-crawl exercises (as described in
Brain Gym and other helpful books and resources). Sometimes, when a child
has been held, carried, etc. as an infant, they do not master the usual
crawling technique which actually integrates right- and left-brain
hemispheres. (7) Read, read, read to your dd! She'll learn this wonderful
skill just by sitting close to you and hearing treasured stories. (I was
taught in public school not to run my finger under each word as I read.
Wrong! This is sometimes a very helpful tool that assists our children in
learning to read by sounding out each letter and connecting them to make a
word.)

I know that others can provide additional hints and strategies. It's late,
and I'm probably leaving out some of the activities that we did, but please
remember that kids do pick up on our frustrations, fears, etc. We obviously
don't want reading to have any negative associations.

My daughter became developmentally ready to read when she was about 9 years
old. For some children (especially boys, I'm told), reading readiness
doesn't occur until they're even 10 or older! The interesting result in my
own dd's situation is that when her reading skills "kicked in," she was in
what would be 4th grade, but she actually whipped through early readers and,
in a matter of months, was reading books that were of high school level and
beyond! She had seen the Jodie Foster movie, "Contact", and became
interested in quantum and astro-physics. She began to read books on these
subjects and communicated by e-mail with a scientist and professor at MIT.
What an accomplishment for someone who seemingly struggled with this skill
for so many years! Just the other day, my dd shared with me that reading
has opened up so many doors to learning for her. She loves to read and
reads so well!

Suz, I couldn't decide whether I should send this response to you directly
or post it to the general readership of this Unschooling Listserv. I
finally thought that others might benefit from our family's experience, so I
hope you'll understand that I'm sending this very public posting in response
to your very personal situation. I truly hope this helps!

Sincerely,

Linda Davis








-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst <fuerst@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Beginning reading


>From: "Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
>
>Hi all,
>It's been a few months since I had my anxiety phase regarding my 7.5 yo
>lerning to read. She said she wanted to learn so we got 'Teach You Child
to
>Read in 100 Easy lessons', which ahd been recommended by someone here and
>other HSers. Well, dd doesn't like the drill.
>She argues and refuses to cooperate with lessons. Because I think she
needs
>to be interested to get something out of it, we'll put it away and try
>again off and on, picking up where we were. And trying to do other
reading
>activities.
> Well, for a few weeks she has shown little interest in working on
>reading. Last night we pulled out a very simple book (Pumpkin Pumkin),
>which she could read well a year ago. She couldn't to get past the second
>word! I'm a little frustrated with what looks like serious regression
here!
> the other part of what's going on here is that her friend, 7.25 yo,
>visited last night and began talking about books she's reading for her
>Accelerated reading program at school. (This girl attended a VERY small
>private school for 3 yrs, which was a lot like a more formal HS program -
>they used PACES). Anyway, my dd isn't even reading some of the simple
>books! Another PS neighbor keeps asking if she can read yet because he can
>read some now. He's a yr younger; and his mother pressures him BIG time
to
>read.
> So anyway, I have this bright daughter, who's always been
>developmentally 'ahead' in language skills.
> I know everyone says to be patient, but I wonder if we should be doing
>something else to encourage her reading.
> I guess I also think her unschooling will 'fly' once she's reading.
>Any thoughts?
>Thanks in advance,
>Suz
>Breathing deeply....
>
>>Check it out!
>http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

Joel Hawthorne

I think that what you wrote Linda should be required "reading" for every
"school" teacher. Maybe then, they would "leave them kids alone" instead of
poisoning them with the artificial, toxic "one size fits nobody" model that
schools have followed, to everyone's detriment, for years.

Thanks for posting it to the list. It goes into my "early reading folder" for
future use.

Linda Sternhill Davis wrote:" <lrsdavis@...>

>
> Dear Suz,
>
> I know you'll probably get a number of responses to your posting, but I
> wanted to step forward from my lurking position within this Listserv to
> provide my support.
>
> My daughter underwent similar challenges with reading when she was your
> daughter's age. I trusted my instincts and also received confirmation from
> helpful "experts" at that time. I have ultimately learned that one of the
> greatest gifts my daughter has received from homeschooling is not feeling
> pressured or rushed to learn how to read. <snip>My daughter became
> developmentally ready to read when she was about 9 years
> old. For some children (especially boys, I'm told), reading readiness
> doesn't occur until they're even 10 or older! <snip> Sincerely,
>
> Linda Davis
>
> -

best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Carolyn Talarr

Hi,

Linda wrote a lot of good ideas, so I'll just add a few more from my past as
an adult literacy educator. (I'm sure hoping that I haven't missed any
posts on this topic in which the suggestions below were brought up--if so,
please excuse my shoddy groping through my 200 or so e-mails a day [I'm a
listserv pack rat])...

And be warned: my bias is whole language: I fully believe that building on
strengths moving from the meaningful whole to the component part is the most
affirming, constructive way to learn--well, anything, reading included. So
letters don't precede words--meaning comes first, with the components coming
on that foundation.

First thing I'd say: packaged curricula can be de facto intimidating,
because it's like looking up a 12 foot wall, even if there are footholds at
each step. You still know that *someone* expects you to get *this* far at
some point. It also doesn't necessarily relate to the learner's life, and
we all know how being forced to read particular stuff can irritate you and
turn you off.

Instead, a classic early activity for learners who have basically no
connection to print at all is called "Language experience". The idea is
that it's easiest to read something that *you* wrote, that is directly
meaningful text generated by *you*. Further, you break down into the
*tiniest* steps possible, the distance between her experience and the
written word. Between living and reading and writing. BTW, what Linda
suggested about drawing illustrations and then dictating captions is a
smaller, word-by-word version of this. (My own bias about what's called
"whole-word": it's better than straight bottom-up phonics, but it's still
words out of context. Communicating meaning is what reading is about,
ultimately, not recognizing words. So begin with the purpose of
reading--real meaning--and go from there. Again, this is my personal
professional perspective.)

I'll only generally outline the process--if this is not repetitive and
you're interested, I could fill you in on details and fine points...So you
can sit and talk with your daughter about something and then ask if you can
write one sentence of what she just said. For instance: "We picked apples
today." A short sentence is good. Then you can read it back to her. Maybe
twice. Pointing at the words. Then you can start shadow reading it with
her--she kind of whispers while you read along. Gradually, over many
repetitions, you can fade out and she can take over.

Yes, it's memorization. If you look at it, that's what reading is--it's
just so highlighted here because the process is broken down into its bare
bones. But that's the first step. And these words are *hers*.

Once she can read the sentence all by herself (which is a cool thing!), you
can move from the meaningful whole to the component parts. You can ask her
what particular words are in the sentence. I'd start with first and last
words, then move to meaningful words e.g. apples or picked.

Periodically, let her go back and read it all together to keep the meaning.

Then you can improvise--if she wants to learn the words even more out of
context, you can write a few of them on cards and she can identify them,
like flash cards except they're *her* words. And make sure to write the
whole sentence on the other side of the card, with the relevant word
underlined.

If she wants to add more to her story, you can add another sentence. It
could get quite long, if you all want. And before you know it, she's
written a piece about a significant event in her life that she can read and
control forever.

You can break down to component parts even more, e.g. sounds of consonants
and vowels (always in combination)...but I won't bother with that right now,
because I don't even know if this is interesting to you.

People in the programs I worked in would do language experiences for months.
Not the same one, but the same basic process. It was totally emotionally
rewarding to watch people who had never thought their lives related in any
way to a written narrative put experiences they wanted to document down on
paper (there were plenty of experiences they didn't want to document, of
course--but that's another story). It's a tremendously empowering thing.
Anyway, *Then*, later, when your daughter feels like it, and feels some
control over words and patterns and such, she can move to other people's
writing. Maybe *your* writing about experiences she knows about. That
would be a wonderful next bridge. Just off the top of my head, I envision
something like "The sun shone on my daughter's hair" as a companion story to
the apple-picking.

If the process to other people's experiences and thoughts is rushed at all,
you can break the fragile connection between written symbols and meaning
that your daughter's trying to build. Just glory in the connection of oral
and written narration or description. It's phenomenal. (Do you think I
miss my work? :)) If you feel like something is too much of a stretch, you
can go back and find the solid foundation under your feet. That's the
beauty of this methodology. There's always solid meaning to fall back on.

Just thought I'd offer this idea. If it's helpful or you want more
information on this or other ideas, I'd be totally willing.

Good luck, and please, from someone who's worked with adult basic ed
learners who are sometimes quite accomplished in their fields, sometimes
owners of businesses, etc.: it's no sign of a lack of "intelligence" or
s.l.t. It will come. Just build on what's meaningful to her.

Good luck and please continue to post about your all's experiences,
Carolyn

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/31/99 7:32:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lrsdavis@... writes:

<< Suz, I couldn't decide whether I should send this response to you directly
or post it to the general readership of this Unschooling Listserv. I
finally thought that others might benefit from our family's experience, so I
hope you'll understand that I'm sending this very public posting in response
to your very personal situation. I truly hope this helps!
>>

I'm glad you did. Although my son(8yro) is reading he does not whiz
through. Since he is a hands on kind of guy I printed out what you wrote to
try with him. Maybe just playing around will give some needed reinforcement.
Plus I'll feel like we're doing something.LOL

Laura

Joel Hawthorne

I am increasingly convinced that left to their own devices, if there are reading
people around them, children will come up with the method that works best for
them..... be that phonics, whole word, writing in the mud, copying letters
before they know the alphabet, etc. etc. et. al. They come equipped with the
mental apparatus to figure it out. Keep out of their way and offer assistance
when it is asked for in the amount it is asked for. The variety of people and
learning styles makes generalization very risky at best and is always made
useless for the many outside the generalization.

Carolyn Talarr wrote:

> From: "Carolyn Talarr" <talarr@...>
>
> Hi,
>
> Linda wrote a lot of good ideas, so I'll just add a few more from my past as
> an adult literacy educator..<snip> It will come. Just build on what's
> meaningful to her.
>
> Good luck and please continue to post about your all's experiences,
> Carolyn

best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

[email protected]

just wanted to raise my hand as another with a 7.5 yo not reading. her older
sister had learned by this age, and i am definitely not going to panic or do
anything extra til she's eight. haha! hows that for relaxed? i do trust
things will progress as i do see the building blocks in action. the only
thing we do (outside of the ordinary) is play sound/letter/word games in the
car-- all of us together-- made up on the spot by whomever is inspired...
erin

[email protected]

I just had to respond here. My dh <and I even have to admit *I*> was getting
unsure my 6yo was learning any letters or the meaning/sounds of them. Well,
she blew both of us out of the water Saturday. We went out to eat and with
her french fries and toothpicks she made a T, and an H, which she said, stood
for HAMBURGER!
Me and dh looked at her and each other and sighed. SHE IS LEARNING!!! ROFL!.
Just had to share!
Love reading all the posts you gals <and guys> send out.
Sam

Carolyn Talarr

>From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
>
>I am increasingly convinced that left to their own devices, if there are
reading
>people around them, children will come up with the method that works best
for
>them..... be that phonics, whole word, writing in the mud, copying letters
>before they know the alphabet, etc. etc. et. al. They come equipped with
the
>mental apparatus to figure it out. Keep out of their way and offer
assistance
>when it is asked for in the amount it is asked for. The variety of people
and
>learning styles makes generalization very risky at best and is always made
>useless for the many outside the generalization.


I'm assuming, Joel, that you were referring to what I wrote as
generalization. And that I was implying that this was *the* way to go, as a
Fact. Insofar as any comment or suggestion would be a generalization, I
guess you're right, but I certainly didn't think of it as one. In fact
quite the opposite--did you miss where I said "this is my bias", "this is my
personal professional bias" etc. several times and that I was just offering
one more idea?

Or was it the theoretical discussion that upset you? I was offering, as I
understood it, another suggestion for things to do (in a long line of things
to do) in response to a post by a mother who was asking on behalf of a child
who wants to learn to read. I did include a fair bit of theoretical frame
around it because I hadn't seen mentioned any approach that started with
meaningful units of more than one word rather than letters or a word and I
thought maybe the idea needed some introduction. Actually, I was trying to
*counter* the implicit theoretical "generalization" that learning reading
happened by learning letters first (except for the whole word idea) that
seemed to apply in people's suggestions.

Some people don't think of reading as making meaning even at the emergent
stages because we're so schooled to think of it as intrinsically bottom-up,
phonics and such. The bottom-up model (and the associated politics and
interpersonal dynamics--building on perceived lack of knowledge of a set
body of knowledge rather than on strengths and interests) is actually a
recent product of the industrial age, and some learners can work with it,
while other learners can't.

Or was it the step-by-step process I described? I could have just said "you
can write what your daughter says and it can be another thing for her to
read if she wants" but broke down the process because it seemed that it
might be unfamiliar and people would want to be able to envision *one* way
it might go. If one were to break down the process of writing letters in
the mud, I suspect it might look like a step-by-step process as well.

I'd be the first to say flexibility and following a learner's lead including
keeping out of their way is an utterly necessary factor not only in reading,
but in all learning.

Since the learner was rebelling against a set curriculum, being prepared to
do the kind of stuff I was talking about instead seemed like a good thing to
have ready if it ever came up. The poster didn't seem to have this kind of
tool in her toolbox (please forgive me if I was wrong, but ordering "Teach
your child to read in 100 easy lessons" seems very much further away from
unschooling than having a way to help a kid translate her/his experiences
into written, readable text.)

So sorry if it was unhelpful or seemed offensive. I offered it in a spirit
of one more idea to try, and why to think about trying it when other things
seemed to have failed. People can always delete! :)

Carolyn

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

Thanks Ann!!
My dd's the same (as in loves books!) The other day I heard her tell her
friend (a fifth grader), "You just have to read this book 'How my Parents
Learned To Eat'! It's really neat...." She went on to give an incredible
"oral bookreport", summary of the book.
I know this will all fall into place.....It's such a challenge for ME!!
To try and stay patient, to know how to offer guidance when she wants it...
;o)
Suz.......breathing, breathing
PS. That original message was somehow 'caught in cyberspace' for days!!
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Yates <hooperck@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Beginning reading


>From: "A. Yates" <hooperck@...>
>
>Keep breathing deeply, and don't listen to anyone but your daughter. Not
even
>yourself sometimes! :)
>I have a 7yos, and he isn't reading at all. He can only recognize his name
and
>maybe his brothers. He loves books with a passion though, and loves to be
read
>too. Try not to worry, and I'll do the same.
>Ann
>
>"Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst" wrote:
>
>> From: "Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
>>
>> Hi all,
>> It's been a few months since I had my anxiety phase regarding my 7.5 yo
>> lerning to read. She said she wanted to learn so we got 'Teach You Child
to
>> Read in 100 Easy lessons', which ahd been recommended by someone here
and
>> other HSers. Well, dd doesn't like the drill.
>> She argues and refuses to cooperate with lessons. Because I think she
needs
>> to be interested to get something out of it, we'll put it away and try
>> again off and on, picking up where we were. And trying to do other
reading
>> activities.
>> Well, for a few weeks she has shown little interest in working on
>> reading. Last night we pulled out a very simple book (Pumpkin Pumkin),
>> which she could read well a year ago. She couldn't to get past the
second
>> word! I'm a little frustrated with what looks like serious regression
here!
>> the other part of what's going on here is that her friend, 7.25 yo,
>> visited last night and began talking about books she's reading for her
>> Accelerated reading program at school. (This girl attended a VERY small
>> private school for 3 yrs, which was a lot like a more formal HS
program -
>> they used PACES). Anyway, my dd isn't even reading some of the simple
>> books! Another PS neighbor keeps asking if she can read yet because he
can
>> read some now. He's a yr younger; and his mother pressures him BIG time
to
>> read.
>> So anyway, I have this bright daughter, who's always been
>> developmentally 'ahead' in language skills.
>> I know everyone says to be patient, but I wonder if we should be
doing
>> something else to encourage her reading.
>> I guess I also think her unschooling will 'fly' once she's reading.
>> Any thoughts?
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Suz
>> Breathing deeply....
>>
>> > Check it out!
>> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>>Check it out!
>http://www.unschooling.com
>

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

Laura,
YES, it helps a lot to hear your story......especially when some are
talking about 2 year olds sounding out words!! (No offense to Melanie).

Joel Hawthorne

Carolyn,

Sorry if I sounded offended.... I wasn't. I was a touch piqued but by what
precisely I couldn't say now. I meant pretty much what I said and not a whole
lot more. I wasn't upset particularly.

My apologies if I was inattentive or too off-hand. I didn't really think you
had committed a transgression. I don't think we disagree terribly when I reread
your current post.

I am sorry if I trod on toes. I confess to feeling a bit snarly.

I am, however good with the delete key or I would go nuts....nuttier.

Carolyn Talarr wrote:

> From: "Carolyn Talarr" <talarr@...>
>
> >From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
> >
> >I am increasingly convinced that left to their own devices, if there are
> reading
> >people around them, children will come up with the method that works best
> for
> >them..... be that phonics, whole word, writing in the mud, copying letters
> >before they know the alphabet, etc. etc. et. al. They come equipped with
> the
> >mental apparatus to figure it out. Keep out of their way and offer
> assistance
> >when it is asked for in the amount it is asked for. The variety of people
> and
> >learning styles makes generalization very risky at best and is always made
> >useless for the many outside the generalization.
>
> I'm assuming, Joel, that you were referring to what I wrote as
> generalization. And that I was implying that this was *the* way to go, as a
> Fact. Insofar as any comment or suggestion would be a generalization, I
> guess you're right, but I certainly didn't think of it as one. In fact
> quite the opposite--did you miss where I said "this is my bias", "this is my
> personal professional bias" etc. several times and that I was just offering
> one more idea?
>
> Or was it the theoretical discussion that upset you? I was offering, as I
> understood it, another suggestion for things to do (in a long line of things
> to do) in response to a post by a mother who was asking on behalf of a child
> who wants to learn to read. I did include a fair bit of theoretical frame
> around it because I hadn't seen mentioned any approach that started with
> meaningful units of more than one word rather than letters or a word and I
> thought maybe the idea needed some introduction. Actually, I was trying to
> *counter* the implicit theoretical "generalization" that learning reading
> happened by learning letters first (except for the whole word idea) that
> seemed to apply in people's suggestions.
>
> Some people don't think of reading as making meaning even at the emergent
> stages because we're so schooled to think of it as intrinsically bottom-up,
> phonics and such. The bottom-up model (and the associated politics and
> interpersonal dynamics--building on perceived lack of knowledge of a set
> body of knowledge rather than on strengths and interests) is actually a
> recent product of the industrial age, and some learners can work with it,
> while other learners can't.
>
> Or was it the step-by-step process I described? I could have just said "you
> can write what your daughter says and it can be another thing for her to
> read if she wants" but broke down the process because it seemed that it
> might be unfamiliar and people would want to be able to envision *one* way
> it might go. If one were to break down the process of writing letters in
> the mud, I suspect it might look like a step-by-step process as well.
>
> I'd be the first to say flexibility and following a learner's lead including
> keeping out of their way is an utterly necessary factor not only in reading,
> but in all learning.
>
> Since the learner was rebelling against a set curriculum, being prepared to
> do the kind of stuff I was talking about instead seemed like a good thing to
> have ready if it ever came up. The poster didn't seem to have this kind of
> tool in her toolbox (please forgive me if I was wrong, but ordering "Teach
> your child to read in 100 easy lessons" seems very much further away from
> unschooling than having a way to help a kid translate her/his experiences
> into written, readable text.)
>
> So sorry if it was unhelpful or seemed offensive. I offered it in a spirit
> of one more idea to try, and why to think about trying it when other things
> seemed to have failed. People can always delete! :)
>
> Carolyn
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

My brother did not learn to read until he was over 9. I remember many
nights with he and my mother both in tears as they sat at the dining room
table trying to force him to learn to read. Finally, that summer while we
were on the highway headed somewhere for vacation and my dad was reading us
"Last of the Mohicans." He handed the book to my brother at a climactic
scene and said "I'm tired, you read for a while." So he did!

To this day my dad is still "proud" of that and tells that story. I find
it interesting, and sad, that he can feel justified claiming the credit for
"teaching" my brother to read, when my brother so obviously did it himself.
Despite all the school's efforts, and my mother's as well, to force him to
read, pidgeon-holing him and catagorizing him as a slow reader/learner or
whatever, he STILL learned to read all by himself when HE was ready.

I distinctly remember the whole process and all of the emotion involved for
everyone. Even as a small child I remember keeping a low profile and not
reminding him of the fact that I (his year younger sister) was reading at
4. It was just too obvious how painful the whole process was for him, and
sibling rivalry just flew out the window. It makes me wonder how my
parents could NOT have seen the obvious. That they should just back off as
well, and that torturing him did not help the issue at all.

Now he is a very technically skilled reader with a voracious literary
appetite. He reads very complicated Science Fiction, History, etc for fun
and finds it not the least challenging. If that is not a story of
perserverence and overcoming being labeled, I don't what is. 7 - 8 even 9
- 10 are not "late" readers. They are just so busy being precocious in
other areas that they do not have the time or the interest in learning to
read, and should not be made to feel less for that. My brother has always
been very mechanically oriented and loved to take things apart. He ended
up doing four years in the Navy as an electronics technician for Viking
jets, and is now beginning to study engineering, with a side interest (and
lots of knowledge) in computers.

Have faith. When they are ready and have a "real" need to read (not a
percived or imposed need) they will.

Nanci K.

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/2/99 10:41:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, fuerst@...
writes:

<< YES, it helps a lot to hear your story......especially when some are
talking about 2 year olds sounding out words!! (No offense to Melanie). >>

My sisters daughters always talked before my boys. Mine did not talk well
until they were 2 1/2-3. Potty trained late, all were almost 3. However many
are gifted in different ways and they all have superb physical skills. Most
road a 2 wheel bike with no training wheels by 3. The youngest has been a
whiz at every thing. He could rollerblade at 3 and taught himself using one
of older bros. skates. He snow skied at 5. He has been able to dribble a
basketball since he was 3 etc. Kids have all kinds of gifts, some are just
more respected than others.
The son who could not read until late has built the whole star wars fleet
with cardboard and tape. These ships are impressive. He can draw and build
most anything. I'm not saying any of this to brag. Only to emphasize that we
must see all of our kids talents and that they won't always fit into what
society thinks valuable.

Laura

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/2/99 11:30:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:

<< My brother did not learn to read until he was over 9. I remember many
nights with he and my mother both in tears as they sat at the dining room
table trying to force him to learn to read. >>

My brother told me several years ago that he finally learned to read
after I said to him one day "Bill each of these letters have a sound and the
sound is always the same, they don't change every time you read them" Mind
you I was only about 11 or 12 so my lesson was brief. He told me that no one
had ever told him that before and after that he was able to figure it out.

Laura

Shimokawa Family

<<(No offense to Melanie)>>

No offense taken. Mook is almost three and has no intention of going
near the toilet any time soon. (And no, I'm not worried, but everyone
else seems to be...) I think each person learns what they want to learn
at whatever age they want to learn it. He talked early, but he wasn't
walking until almost a year and a half. He knows when he needs practice
at something - not me. Sometimes he'll just come up to me and say,
"Mom, let's talk in English." OK, I guess he feels he needs practice
speaking English. He just knows. I imagine every kid just knows.
That's probably why some kids are "problem" kids in school. They know
that they don't need practice at what the teacher is trying to teach
them. Jets or bugs or whatever are just more important to them at that
time. Maybe they already know what is being taught (or don't need to
know right now), and want to explore the real world.

I loved that John Holt's book How Children Learn. I finally made it
through, and then reread it. It was slow going for me at first, but I
found I agreed with almost everything he said. (Which is unusual for me
- I rarely agree with half of what I read or hear - hope that didn't
offend anybody...) If we just trust our kids, they'll learn what they
need to learn. (Now I feel like I'm preaching...)

Love, Melanie in Japan
AOL Instant Messenger name: Vouget