# Math Question

#### The O'Donnells

I told you all I'd end up being a pain! :o)

OK, Math for Smarty Pants - page 8. The tick tack toe game baffles me. I

see it is strategy but I don't see it as math. Help! Strategy to me is

part of critical thinking not math. Someone set me straight....

This is why it is so hard for me to let go - sometimes I just don't see the

learning in different activities therefore, I can't get peaceful with

letting them do just whatever. Sigh.

(I'm trying to be funny and light hearted hear in case anyone thinks I'm

losing it :)

In His Service,

Laraine

praxis@...

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OK, Math for Smarty Pants - page 8. The tick tack toe game baffles me. I

see it is strategy but I don't see it as math. Help! Strategy to me is

part of critical thinking not math. Someone set me straight....

This is why it is so hard for me to let go - sometimes I just don't see the

learning in different activities therefore, I can't get peaceful with

letting them do just whatever. Sigh.

(I'm trying to be funny and light hearted hear in case anyone thinks I'm

losing it :)

In His Service,

Laraine

praxis@...

Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:

http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday

#### Lisa Bugg

> OK, Math for Smarty Pants - page 8. The tick tack toe game baffles me. IStategy/Critical thinking IS math. It's the essence of math, numbers are

> see it is strategy but I don't see it as math. Help! Strategy to me is

> part of critical thinking not math. Someone set me straight....

>

just the way to express the logic.

> This is why it is so hard for me to let go - sometimes I just don't seethe

> learning in different activities therefore, I can't get peaceful withIt does take time to shift perspectives and see the learning contained

> letting them do just whatever. Sigh.

>

within different activities.

What would make you peaceful?

Lisa

#### [email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/99 3:48:52 PM !!!First Boot!!!, praxis@...

writes:

<<

I told you all I'd end up being a pain! :o)

OK, Math for Smarty Pants - page 8. The tick tack toe game baffles me. I

see it is strategy but I don't see it as math. Help! Strategy to me is

part of critical thinking not math. Someone set me straight....

It seems to me that logic and seeing relationships and puzzle solving and

strategizing and playing games with numbers is all building toward and part

of mathematics. It may not be direct instruction in arithmetic (memorizing

those addition and multiplication facts) but it sure is mathematics.

Math is the fun stuff - the games and theories and intuitive connections and

leaps of logic and insight. Arithmetic is the boring stuff - memorizing in a

disconnected way.

imo.

Take care.

Nance

writes:

<<

I told you all I'd end up being a pain! :o)

OK, Math for Smarty Pants - page 8. The tick tack toe game baffles me. I

see it is strategy but I don't see it as math. Help! Strategy to me is

part of critical thinking not math. Someone set me straight....

>>Well, if math and critical thinking aren't related, then what is???

It seems to me that logic and seeing relationships and puzzle solving and

strategizing and playing games with numbers is all building toward and part

of mathematics. It may not be direct instruction in arithmetic (memorizing

those addition and multiplication facts) but it sure is mathematics.

Math is the fun stuff - the games and theories and intuitive connections and

leaps of logic and insight. Arithmetic is the boring stuff - memorizing in a

disconnected way.

imo.

Take care.

Nance

#### The O'Donnells

At 10:51 AM 10/13/99 -0500, you wrote:

questions such as the one I posted about tic tac toe it helps me see new

angles on old games. When your focus has been on school type

mathematics/arithmetic it is hard to see the longer range effects of

children spending their time doing these activities. You can see what they

are doing when it is a sheet of math equations - but when they play

strategy games I sense a void as to what they are accomplishing. I suppose

it is the several year wait that will show what the profit is to their

playing games of this type. A new hser may not feel they can wait several

years to see what is happening.

In His Service,

Laraine

praxis@...

Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:

http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday

>What would make you peaceful?As a relatively new hsing Mom I'm finding that if I can get answers to

questions such as the one I posted about tic tac toe it helps me see new

angles on old games. When your focus has been on school type

mathematics/arithmetic it is hard to see the longer range effects of

children spending their time doing these activities. You can see what they

are doing when it is a sheet of math equations - but when they play

strategy games I sense a void as to what they are accomplishing. I suppose

it is the several year wait that will show what the profit is to their

playing games of this type. A new hser may not feel they can wait several

years to see what is happening.

In His Service,

Laraine

praxis@...

Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:

http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday

#### Linda Wyatt

> From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>I don't think it needs to take years.

> You can see what they

> are doing when it is a sheet of math equations - but when they play

> strategy games I sense a void as to what they are accomplishing. I suppose

> it is the several year wait that will show what the profit is to their

> playing games of this type. A new hser may not feel they can wait several

> years to see what is happening.

I understand the worries some folks have if they are new and can't *see*

progress, but I think progress usually comes much sooner than years.

I have a fascination right now with the connection between math and music.

I won't bore you all with it, I can go on at great length because I'm

really into it.

I got some new books, and in one I was reading today, it had a list of the

4 branches of mathematics in Pythagoras' time: Arithmetic, Geometry,

Astronomy, and Music. Music was considered primarily a branch of

mathematics!

My point is that there is a lot more to math than what most people think

math is, and the more different areas of it you can explore, the more

comfortable you will become with seeing it more places.

Numbers are the simplest part of math. The theory, the patterns, the

connections, the logic, the algebraic *thinking*, that's the most important

stuff. Without those, numbers won't do much for you.

Linda

--

Linda Wyatt

hilinda@...

http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda

Learning everywhere, all the time.

Algebra before breakfast

"A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be

mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown

#### [email protected]

In a message dated 10/15/99 10:09:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

hilinda@... writes:

<< I have a fascination right now with the connection between math and music.

I won't bore you all with it, I can go on at great length because I'm

really into it. >>

I have been reading "Child's Work" by Nancy Wallace and much of what she

writes bears this out. This is a great book by the way. I would recommend it

to any new hsers like me.

Laura

hilinda@... writes:

<< I have a fascination right now with the connection between math and music.

I won't bore you all with it, I can go on at great length because I'm

really into it. >>

I have been reading "Child's Work" by Nancy Wallace and much of what she

writes bears this out. This is a great book by the way. I would recommend it

to any new hsers like me.

Laura

#### David Albert

> I have a fascination right now with the connection between math andBoth of my daughters learned their first math through music (and through

> music.

> I won't bore you all with it, I can go on at great length because I'm

> really into it.

>

> I got some new books, and in one I was reading today, it had a list of

> the

> 4 branches of mathematics in Pythagoras' time: Arithmetic, Geometry,

> Astronomy, and Music. Music was considered primarily a branch of

> mathematics!

snake breeding -- my older daughter learned Punnett Squares displaying

future genetic possibilities before she did two-place addition -- I

discuss that in my book) -- fractions realized in sound. Both of my

daughters also learned Carnatic (south Indian) music from me, which is

famous for its musical complexity -- 72 major scales, pivoting around

the 5th, and divided in half according to whether the fourth is natural

or augmented, and up to 92,108 minor ones, all of which can be fit on a

chart like a table of elements -- each with their own particular "taste"

which is brought in the listener, with their own properties (some are

good for growing plants, etc.), and time of day when they can be played

for best effect.

Pythagorean mathematics still exists in the theory of harmonics, of

course, and in my experience, kids are absolutely fascinated by it

(watch a child violinist when she plays her first harmonic and you know

what I mean), but I have rarely seen music teachers discuss it with

children (and NEVER heard of it being shared in schools! -- what did you

expect?)

> The theory, the patterns, theAbsolutely! Without it, just give the kids a calculator and let them go

> connections, the logic, the algebraic *thinking*, that's the most

> important

> stuff.

their merry ways!

david albert

--

My book "And the Skylark Sings with Me: Adventures in Homeschooling and

Community-Based Education" is NOW OFF THE PRESS. To read a sample

chapter, reviewers' comments, or the foreword, and for ordering info.,

visit my website at http://www.skylarksings.com

#### Linda Wyatt

> From: David Albert <shantinik@...>Wow! This sounds so extremely cool! Want to come visit and share? :-)

> Both of my

> daughters also learned Carnatic (south Indian) music from me, which is

> famous for its musical complexity -- 72 major scales, pivoting around

> the 5th, and divided in half according to whether the fourth is natural

> or augmented, and up to 92,108 minor ones, all of which can be fit on a

> chart like a table of elements -- each with their own particular "taste"

> which is brought in the listener, with their own properties (some are

> good for growing plants, etc.), and time of day when they can be played

> for best effect.

Okay, are there books? Web pages? Somewhere I can look this up? Is there

a chart I can get? I'd love to see one.

thanks!

Linda

--

Linda Wyatt

hilinda@...

http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda

Learning everywhere, all the time.

Algebra before breakfast

"A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be

mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown

#### David Albert

Linda Wyatt wrote:

"veena" player (a south Indian mandolin/sitar-like instrument.) The web

is full of sites on "Carnatic music" -- I'm sure some of them have what

are called raga/tala (melody/rhythm) charts (Indian rhythm is as complex

as melody -- but no overt harmony -- rejected around the 2nd century

a.d. as incompatible with spiritual clarity). But once you jump in, you

are literally in an ocean! (which turned out great for me; I ended up

with adopted Indian family, a second home there, and an adopted

daughter!)

If you want, tomorrow I can e-mail you off the list on how the major 72

get constructed (from a western perspective). I doubt that will be of

huge interest to this list -- though if people ask, I'll send to them as

well.

David

--

My book "And the Skylark Sings with Me: Adventures in Homeschooling and

Community-Based Education" is NOW OFF THE PRESS. To read a sample

chapter, reviewers' comments, or the foreword, and for ordering info.,

visit my website at http://www.skylarksings.com

> From: Linda Wyatt <hilinda@...>There is a veritable ocean of material -- I have a bunch because I am a

>

> > From: David Albert <shantinik@...>

>

> > Both of my

> > daughters also learned Carnatic (south Indian) music from me, which

> is

> > famous for its musical complexity -- 72 major scales, pivoting

> around

> > the 5th, and divided in half according to whether the fourth is

> natural

> > or augmented, and up to 92,108 minor ones, all of which can be fit

> on a

> > chart like a table of elements -- each with their own particular

> "taste"

> > which is brought in the listener, with their own properties (some

> are

> > good for growing plants, etc.), and time of day when they can be

> played

> > for best effect.

>

> Wow! This sounds so extremely cool! Want to come visit and share?

> :-)

>

> Okay, are there books? Web pages? Somewhere I can look this up? Is

> there

> a chart I can get? I'd love to see one.

"veena" player (a south Indian mandolin/sitar-like instrument.) The web

is full of sites on "Carnatic music" -- I'm sure some of them have what

are called raga/tala (melody/rhythm) charts (Indian rhythm is as complex

as melody -- but no overt harmony -- rejected around the 2nd century

a.d. as incompatible with spiritual clarity). But once you jump in, you

are literally in an ocean! (which turned out great for me; I ended up

with adopted Indian family, a second home there, and an adopted

daughter!)

If you want, tomorrow I can e-mail you off the list on how the major 72

get constructed (from a western perspective). I doubt that will be of

huge interest to this list -- though if people ask, I'll send to them as

well.

David

--

My book "And the Skylark Sings with Me: Adventures in Homeschooling and

Community-Based Education" is NOW OFF THE PRESS. To read a sample

chapter, reviewers' comments, or the foreword, and for ordering info.,

visit my website at http://www.skylarksings.com

#### [email protected]

In a message dated 10/16/99 2:01:31 AM !!!First Boot!!!, praxis@...

writes:

<< I suppose

it is the several year wait that will show what the profit is to their

playing games of this type. A new hser may not feel they can wait several

years to see what is happening.

course, the direction will probably change a million times befoe you get

anywhere. :):)

As a note: one of the biggest reaosns we started hsing was that it did NOT

take along time to see the negative results in my son as he struggled with an

inadequate situation in K (he was pulled out after 7 months of ps). So the

results may be slow in coming here but the problems were quick to arise there.

Take care.

Nance

writes:

<< I suppose

it is the several year wait that will show what the profit is to their

playing games of this type. A new hser may not feel they can wait several

years to see what is happening.

>>Good luck -- it sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Of

course, the direction will probably change a million times befoe you get

anywhere. :):)

As a note: one of the biggest reaosns we started hsing was that it did NOT

take along time to see the negative results in my son as he struggled with an

inadequate situation in K (he was pulled out after 7 months of ps). So the

results may be slow in coming here but the problems were quick to arise there.

Take care.

Nance

#### [email protected]

Hello this is for all you that like math out there.

My daughter is playing a game where she needs to catch 100 fish to get a

prize. She gets 18 fish on each try. Her question is how many times will she

have to play to get the required number of fish. We kept a chart of ten times

fishing (4 different fish and junk). I took the number of one type of fish

added them up and then divided by the number of tries. Then divided 18 into

that number for the percentage...but the percentages don't add up right so I

think I am doing something wrong. I just can't seem to wrap my mind around

how to answer this (our math guys aren't home and we just can't seem to get

it.) Is there another way or are we completely off base?

Thanks

Dorothy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My daughter is playing a game where she needs to catch 100 fish to get a

prize. She gets 18 fish on each try. Her question is how many times will she

have to play to get the required number of fish. We kept a chart of ten times

fishing (4 different fish and junk). I took the number of one type of fish

added them up and then divided by the number of tries. Then divided 18 into

that number for the percentage...but the percentages don't add up right so I

think I am doing something wrong. I just can't seem to wrap my mind around

how to answer this (our math guys aren't home and we just can't seem to get

it.) Is there another way or are we completely off base?

Thanks

Dorothy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#### [email protected]

In a message dated 1/14/2005 2:58:21 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,

DDecoeur@... writes:

-=-My daughter is playing a game where she needs to catch 100 fish to get a

prize. She gets 18 fish on each try. Her question is how many times will

she

have to play to get the required number of fish. -=-

=================

If she gets 18 fish on each try, the amount of junk is irrelevant. Did you

mean to say she gets 18 tries in each game?

If she gets 18 every time, that's almost twenty, so it will take her more

than five tries. Six.

Would thinking of it as money help any? How many eighteen-cent things can

be bought with a dollar?

-=-We kept a chart of ten times

fishing (4 different fish and junk). I took the number of one type of fish

added them up and then divided by the number of tries. Then divided 18

into

that number for the percentage..-=-

The average, you mean?

Does it matter how many of which kind of fish need to be in the 100?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DDecoeur@... writes:

-=-My daughter is playing a game where she needs to catch 100 fish to get a

prize. She gets 18 fish on each try. Her question is how many times will

she

have to play to get the required number of fish. -=-

=================

If she gets 18 fish on each try, the amount of junk is irrelevant. Did you

mean to say she gets 18 tries in each game?

If she gets 18 every time, that's almost twenty, so it will take her more

than five tries. Six.

Would thinking of it as money help any? How many eighteen-cent things can

be bought with a dollar?

-=-We kept a chart of ten times

fishing (4 different fish and junk). I took the number of one type of fish

added them up and then divided by the number of tries. Then divided 18

into

that number for the percentage..-=-

The average, you mean?

Does it matter how many of which kind of fish need to be in the 100?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#### [email protected]

Yes it matters how many fish... okay so this is probably why I can't get my

head around the question.

She gets 18 tries at a time...example try one 4 yellow, 7 orange, 1 brown, 0

green, 6 junk. try two 5 yellow, 3 orange, 0 brown, 1 green, 9 junk. Try

three 7 yellow, 2 orange, 0 brown, 0 green, 9 junk

she needs 100 of any one fish to get the prize. Of course brown and green

yield bigger prizes. Her question was " About how many times do I have to do

each turn (18 tries) to get the fish I want?"

so I thought we could find the percentage of fish she got, on the average,

and then figure out how many times she would have to try based on that... what

we came up with with 10 tries was 27 % yellow, 22% orange, 50% junk and 1%

for both brown and green. which would mean that she would have to fish 20

times to get the required number of yellow for example. (on an average)

would that be right?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

head around the question.

She gets 18 tries at a time...example try one 4 yellow, 7 orange, 1 brown, 0

green, 6 junk. try two 5 yellow, 3 orange, 0 brown, 1 green, 9 junk. Try

three 7 yellow, 2 orange, 0 brown, 0 green, 9 junk

she needs 100 of any one fish to get the prize. Of course brown and green

yield bigger prizes. Her question was " About how many times do I have to do

each turn (18 tries) to get the fish I want?"

so I thought we could find the percentage of fish she got, on the average,

and then figure out how many times she would have to try based on that... what

we came up with with 10 tries was 27 % yellow, 22% orange, 50% junk and 1%

for both brown and green. which would mean that she would have to fish 20

times to get the required number of yellow for example. (on an average)

would that be right?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]