Anji Henderson

<<By the time our kids are using computers in work
situations, excel
spreadsheets and Access databases, etc., are pretty
likely to be passe.

I was once a cobol and fortran programmer. Fat lot of
good that does me
now <
BEG>.

--pam>>

But Pam, and all... Doesn't the manipulation of older
programs help with today's programs?? I started in
good ol DOS before the Web was a household name..
Before the web had pictures and flash and Java and
all... It helps to know what is happening behind the
scenes that a lot of people don�t even know is even
there ... I think children should be taught
extensively on today�s computers because it will only
be harder to fix/work with later.. Kind of like
talking to a new born.. Its important..

I have a professor that moved to AK .. He started
working on computers at the age of 60 because the
college required that e-mail was done and that the
reports came out in a specific WP format... That was
when he couldn't "get over" by using a good old
fashion typewriter, Mercy!! And I'll tell you it is
mighty difficult to explain to him what went wrong
knowing he has absolutely no background with programs
and how they work..

PMFJI with out saying HI.. But I just got passionate
over this subject...

Anji


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

Fetteroll

on 5/25/02 1:39 PM, Anji Henderson at vual77@... wrote:

> Doesn't the manipulation of older
> programs help with today's programs??

My Fortran experience hasn't helped me much with the object oriented
languages they use now. HTML was fine. (Not object oriented of course.) But
Java and JavaScript still baffle me.

In fact it might be better for someone to start off fresh without the
preconceived -- and now obsolete! -- notions of how things supposedly work.

> I started in
> good ol DOS before the Web was a household name..

Doesn't Windows still use DOS? Behind the scenes at least. Seems to me those
little start up and whatnot files had DOS commands in them. (I have a Mac
but have been forced to use PC's every once in a while.) And why things are
done the screwy way they're done is for DOS purposes, isn't it? So, that's
not really old knowledge, just masked knowledge! ;-)

> I think children should be taught
> extensively on today’s computers because it will only
> be harder to fix/work with later.. Kind of like
> talking to a new born.. Its important..

I think they should be allowed access to computers as soon as they're
interested, just as I made language freely accessible to my daughter without
teaching and without expectations that she needed to learn anything in
particular. I was confident she'd learn what she needed by using language
for what she needed it for.

Same with computers I think. :-) They're a useful tool that kids will use
for their own useful purposes.

> And I'll tell you it is
> mighty difficult to explain to him what went wrong
> knowing he has absolutely no background with programs
> and how they work..

It's funny, my father, who is an engineer, has always gotten mechanical
things so quickly and I think he's been frustrated that he didn't pick up on
computers like a fish in water. He's had them for years and does use them
but it isn't a natural. He still isn't connected to the internet and isn't
quite sure why he'd want to.

But my father in law who barely knows which end of the hammer to use jumped
from a typewriter to a word processor to a computer (just 3 short years ago)
as the need arose. He searches the internet, orders things on line, emails
and sends attachments. And he now even has his own webpage. His attitude of
"just show me *one* way to do this *one* thing" would not fill anyone with
confidence that he would embrace technology at all. But he's also got a fax,
answering machine, cel phone and a beeper. ;-)

So a lot, I think, has to do with need and a willness to try new things
rather than early training. I suspect my father just doesn't have a need the
way my father in law does.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/25/2002 10:40:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
vual77@... writes:


> I think children should be taught
> extensively on today’s computers because it will only
> be harder to fix/work with later.. Kind of like
> talking to a new born.. Its important..

Taught?

Nah.

Allowed to use?

Sure.

I wouldn't deny it to them - we have 6 computers in this house <G>.

But children are naturally curious. Repeat: Children are naturally curious.

They'll wonder about computers and programming and it'll come up and if they
have responsive, supportive, aware, helpful, resourceful adults around,
they'll learn a LOT about how they work. No "lessons" necessary.

--pamS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I really don't believe one needs to understand the workings behind the
scenes of computers in order to use them. I use a microwave but if something
goes wrong, I call someone to fix it. I know enough to take off the tin foil
so it doesn't spark, I know how to defrost chicken breasts using the
semi-complex button combos and timers, and I now know to put a small wooden
spoon into a cup of water before heating it to boiling.
If my modem stops working I can use the help command to discover what kind I
have and bring that info to the repair person. Why do I HAVE to learn more
if I don't want to?
To me, knowing how to use it is enough. It's another one of those
specialized pieces of knowledge that not EVERYone needs to know.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

marji

>I really don't believe one needs to understand the workings behind the
>scenes of computers in order to use them.

When my very mechanically-inclined brother taught me how to drive those
many, many years ago, he told me that in order to be a competent driver the
most important thing I should know first of all is what to do if the car
doesn't work. He actually walked me through this. He said: "If the car
doesn't start, you pop the hood and take a look at the engine. Then, reach
for your wallet, pull out your triple-A card, and call for help."

He has a great sense of humor, but the point is we don't have know the
inner workings of a thing (unless you WANT to) to be able to use it well.

~marji~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 5/26/02 8:16 AM, ElissaJC@... at ElissaJC@...
wrote:

> I really don't believe one needs to understand the workings behind the
> scenes of computers in order to use them.

What about behind the scenes of the operating system? If some weirdness
happens with a file or a program in Windows how easily can you figure out
how to fix it on your own?

Personally I'm just kind of amazed that regular ordinary people can manage
to figure out Windows. It seems that going beyond install, uninstall and
running a program involves getting a bit too technically intimate with the
mysterious workings of Windows. (I think a lot of Windows operations need an
"I don't know" button besides "Yes" and "No". ;-)

Are adults intimidated by that? Or do you dig in and can you figure it out
yourself? Or do you call your kids when something out of the ordinary
happens? ;-)

Joyce

marji

At 09:19 5/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Are adults intimidated by that? Or do you dig in and can you figure it out
>yourself? Or do you call your kids when something out of the ordinary
>happens? ;-)

I've always been a figure-it-out-yourself kind of person with just about
everything. Somehow, computers never freaked me out, and I've always been
able to open 'em up and fix 'em or improve 'em without any "formal"
education. Same thing with just about any machine I've ever had to work
with. But, I think that may be a personality trait, based on observation
of different personalities in the various office settings I've been in over
the years. I hate asking people for things, so I always just do it myself,
if I can. Then, when I figure it out, I feel really good. I'll never
forget the day it took me HOURS to change a tire. I just couldn't get one
of the lugs off; I even bent a lug wrench trying! But, I wanted to do it
myself! I did get it done myself, and once I knew I could do it on my own,
I was able to ask for help with tire changing after that. Goofy, if you
ask me! (I sure wish I had been unschooled when I was a wee one!)

~marji~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., marji <zintz@w...> wrote:

> I've always been a figure-it-out-yourself kind of person with just
about
> everything. Somehow, computers never freaked me out, and I've
always been
> able to open 'em up and fix 'em or improve 'em without any "formal"
> education. Same thing with just about any machine I've ever had to
work
> with. But, I think that may be a personality trait, based on
observation
> of different personalities in the various office settings I've been
in over
> the years.

I think so too. At the last hotel at which I worked, my job title was
changed to Goddess. The manager even put it on my name tag! The
reason for the title - I was the only one there with a natural
affinity for computers so if something didn't work, they called the
goddess. I kept telling them it was no big deal, and some of the
stuff that baffled them was such a shock for me. I'd sometimes just
have to walk up front and push two keys to 'fix' their problems. Mind
you, these were not stupid people either. One of them had a PhD in
liturature, one of them was still in college and was making the honor
roll every semester. But computers just plain scared them.



> I hate asking people for things, so I always just do it
myself,
> if I can. Then, when I figure it out, I feel really good. I'll
never
> forget the day it took me HOURS to change a tire. I just couldn't
get one
> of the lugs off; I even bent a lug wrench trying! But, I wanted to
do it
> myself! I did get it done myself, and once I knew I could do it on
my own,
> I was able to ask for help with tire changing after that. Goofy, if
you
> ask me! (I sure wish I had been unschooled when I was a wee one!)
>
> ~marji~
>

I had a tire changing experience too. I was on the highway with a
toddler and needed to pick up my oldest somewhere at a certain time (I
forget where, only that we needed to be there). I was struggling to
get those lug nuts loose when a trucker stopped and helped. I let him
but then when we got the tire fixed I wouldn't let the guy at the
service station put it back on. I took it home and did it myself so I
would be sure that I *could* do it if I had too.

Bridget

[email protected]

<<If some weirdness
happens with a file or a program in Windows how easily can you figure out
how to fix it on your own?>>

I have so far. I am glad that the programs themselves are made to run very
easily.

<<
Personally I'm just kind of amazed that regular ordinary people can manage
to figure out Windows. It seems that going beyond install, uninstall and
running a program involves getting a bit too technically intimate with the
mysterious workings of Windows. (I think a lot of Windows operations need an
"I don't know" button besides "Yes" and "No". ;-)>>

You mean figure it out without a teacher telling them how to? By just doing
it? <beg>
My computer came with a tutorial, which was great. Although, I had already
figured it out by trial and error..

<<Are adults intimidated by that? Or do you dig in and can you figure it out
yourself? Or do you call your kids when something out of the ordinary
happens? ;-)>>
Nope, I call my friend Brian! Joey (DH) is pretty intimidated but I thinkit
is the visual, language based medium the is intimidating rather than the
technical computer stuff.




~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

Anji Henderson

:) Thats teaching... And if it gets jammed up and you
fix it with them watching thats teaching too right??

Of course I agree, I had no one with a clue about
computers around when I started on my "T"rash 80 way
back in ooohhhh the early 80's... so either way
works..

Anji
PS we too have too many computers in the house with
many diffrent generations.. :)


--- PSoroosh@... wrote:
> They'll wonder about computers and programming and
> it'll come up and if they
> have responsive, supportive, aware, helpful,
> resourceful adults around,
> they'll learn a LOT about how they work. No
> "lessons" necessary.
>
> --pamS



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

Anji Henderson

I am chuckeling -- because it's true...

Anji

--- Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
> What about behind the scenes of the operating
> system? If some weirdness
> happens with a file or a program in Windows how
> easily can you figure out
> how to fix it on your own?
>
> Personally I'm just kind of amazed that regular
> ordinary people can manage
> to figure out Windows. It seems that going beyond
> install, uninstall and
> running a program involves getting a bit too
> technically intimate with the
> mysterious workings of Windows. (I think a lot of
> Windows operations need an
> "I don't know" button besides "Yes" and "No". ;-)
>
> Are adults intimidated by that? Or do you dig in and
> can you figure it out
> yourself? Or do you call your kids when something
> out of the ordinary
> happens? ;-)
>
> Joyce


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

[email protected]

On Sun, 26 May 2002 08:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Anji Henderson
<vual77@...> writes:
> Of course I agree, I had no one with a clue about
> computers around when I started on my "T"rash 80 way
> back in ooohhhh the early 80's... so either way
> works..

Oh, man, I remember the TRaSh 80s! I learned to program in BASIC on one,
did a whole nifty little Driver's Ed tutorial on one...

Those were the days when anytime I went into a computer store I'd do a
simple little program on the computers there (10 print Eat a Bug 20 Goto
10) and was sooo impressed with myself. We had a Commodore 64 and home
and my bother and I would spend hours typing in prograns we got from
computer magazines, so we could play games really simple games...

I didn't have anything to do with computers for ten years or so, from
about '84 to '94, and everything changed ... when I got back it was
Windows 3.1 and a different world, and all the B ASIC I'd learned was
useless.

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/02 5:55:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
zintz@... writes:


> When my very mechanically-inclined brother taught me how to drive those
> many, many years ago, he told me that in order to be a competent driver the
>
> most important thing I should know first of all is what to do if the car
> doesn't work. He actually walked me through this. He said: "If the car
> doesn't start, you pop the hood and take a look at the engine. Then, reach
>
> for your wallet, pull out your triple-A card, and call for help."
> **************************


True...you don't need to know how things work to be able to use them. But how
convenient it is (in my case, with five children and someone who would rather
spend money on taking kids to movies and going to Barnes and Nobles) when
your computer crashes and you know how to "bring it back to life." How
convenient it is when something has gone wrong and you know how to fix
whatever the problem is (with a little research of course) without dishing
out all of that money to take your computer, or whatever to the shop to get
it fixed. You realize after paying for a "fix it man" to fix the (what you
thought was a big problem) problem, the problem may have been some dust
accumulating on the fan, the battery in the system clock needed to be
changed, you just need to clear your cache...other little things.

I guess because of my background with wiring and things of that nature I am
more inclined to know what is going on with things. I know how to build
computers, add memory, install software, and all of that good stuff. I would
like for my kids to have that knowledge as well. ONly 4 of my boys are
interested in doing so (one of those four includes the baby). My 2 oldest
boys are in the process of gathering all of the information they need to
build gaming computers. I am behind them 100 % It is so funny, my oldest son
can't wait for something to break down so he can take it apart and "try to
fix it." Usually he does a good job. I remember when the Nintendo didn't play
games any longer, he got his screw driver and went in that little box and
moved some things around...whatever he did, I am not sure...but he got it to
work. I think that opened the doors for him.

I love knowing how things work. Maybe that is why I am so crazy now...TO
DETAIL ORIENTED!!!

Dee-crazy lady


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CopperScaleDragon

>Of course I agree, I had no one with a clue about
>computers around when I started on my "T"rash 80 way
>back in ooohhhh the early 80's... so either way
>works..
>


I had to laugh at this. Remembering my first "home computer" was
great fun. It was a tiny Timex-Sinclair It came with 2k of memory
and we bought a 16k upgrade for it, that was nearly totally useless.
It was a big cube that plugged into an expansion slot on the back and
would work loose while you were typing, causing the system to crash.
It had no storage device, so you were forced to type in any programs
you wanted to use every time. Sigh..... We upgraded from that to an
Atari 400 when it came out. WOW! What a great machine! LOL

However, back to the topic of the original post. I feel that having
access to a computer and whatever software the kids are interested in
is vital. Games are great teachers if we allow them to be. We do not
have to teach the kids, we just have to be willing to allow them to
access what they want (within reason, of course) and be willing to
also allow them to solve their own problems that arise. As for
spreadsheets and databases, the basic function of these programs has
not changed over the years. I find that I can move from one package
to another with little problem. I have had no formal computer
training, only a great fascination with the technology and a lot of
curiosity as to how it can be manipulated to do what I want. This has
caused me to spend a good deal of time and energy learning on my own
and as result, I am able to be quite productive with my machine. Why
would our kids not be the same?

Do your children express an interest in computers? Do they want to
play games? I find that allowing my 13 year old son his own computer
and allowance to buy his games as he can has taught him many useful
things. (logic, money management, troubleshooting strategies, and
many other of life's lessons) To my way of thinking this is
unschooling at it's best.

Jane





I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended
up where I intended to be.
- Douglas Adams

Anji Henderson

--- CopperScaleDragon <CopperScaleDragon@...>
wrote:
> I had to laugh at this. Remembering my first "home
> computer" was
> great fun. It was a tiny Timex-Sinclair It came
> with 2k of memory

HEY you had memory!! I had to type in every program
from code and then save it on an audio tape !! :) That
was as good as it got.. Dont ask me to explain how
that worked I have put it so far behing me what with
zip drives and CD burners and not to mention the
wonderful invention of HARD DRIVES!!! Kidding they
have been there all along -- why back in the 70's they
were bigger then life, they call um main frames... :)

>We
> upgraded from that to an
> Atari 400 when it came out. WOW! What a great
> machine! LOL

Whoo Hooo Big time ay?? [BCG] :)

> However, back to the topic of the original post. I
> feel that having
> access to a computer and whatever software the kids
> are interested in
> is vital. Games are great teachers if we allow them
> to be. We do not
> have to teach the kids, we just have to be willing
> to allow them to
> access what they want

EXACTLY!! Although I compleetly feel that by making it
avalable and making your self avalable to answer
questions on such a topic, IS teaching.. Kind of like
passive teaching... Some teaching needs to be passive
and some needs to be direct -- either way it is
teaching....

> be willing to
> also allow them to solve their own problems that
> arise. As for
> spreadsheets and databases, the basic function of
> these programs has
> not changed over the years.

My point exactly.. Thank you ..

>This has
> caused me to spend a good deal of time and energy
> learning on my own
> and as result, I am able to be quite productive with
> my machine. Why
> would our kids not be the same?

Exactly and that adventure you take I bet has you
knowing more then the average Joe or Jo-ann...

> Do your children express an interest in computers?
> Do they want to
> play games? I find that allowing my 13 year old son
> his own computer
> and allowance to buy his games as he can has taught
> him many useful
> things.

Ah... Yes my son, also 13, has his own computer.. But
he had to build it to have it ... and as for games he
has to search most of them and down load a freeware or
shareware so I can see it before it is purchased with
who ever's money.. I find that he is just fine with
the share ware or freeware -- just long enough to get
bored with it and move on to the next game ... We save
a heck of a lot of money that way too... ;)

>(logic, money management, troubleshooting
> strategies, and
> many other of life's lessons) To my way of thinking
> this is
> unschooling at it's best.
I shall take that as a complement as should you ... :)

Anji



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

rumpleteasermom

We still have a TI-99! And pretty much one of every generation of PC
starting with a 286.

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Anji Henderson <vual77@y...> wrote:
> :) Thats teaching... And if it gets jammed up and you
> fix it with them watching thats teaching too right??
>
> Of course I agree, I had no one with a clue about
> computers around when I started on my "T"rash 80 way
> back in ooohhhh the early 80's... so either way
> works..
>
> Anji
> PS we too have too many computers in the house with
> many diffrent generations.. :)
>
>

Fetteroll

on 5/27/02 12:03 AM, Anji Henderson at vual77@... wrote:

> EXACTLY!! Although I compleetly feel that by making it
> avalable and making your self avalable to answer
> questions on such a topic, IS teaching.. Kind of like
> passive teaching... Some teaching needs to be passive
> and some needs to be direct -- either way it is
> teaching....

That point could be debated either way, but I think for people trying to get
unschooling it's helpful to see that there *is* a difference between
teaching and learning.

Most people come to unschooling with the mindset that teaching and learning
are inseparable. And teaching means a teacher leading someone along a
particular pathway to a particular destination. In order to get unschooling
it's helpful to have the false connection between teaching and learning
severed so people can start bulding a new model of learning.

So calling "making yourself available" teaching might be a fun debate about
the malleability of the English language, I think it might just be confusing
for people trying to get the concept of learning without teaching. The
important part of the process that new unschoolers need to grasp is the
central core to learning is what happens inside the learner, not whatever
the teachers (passive or otherwise) are doing outside the learner.

It's not that the environment isn't important in unschooling. It's very
important. But it's getting someone to the point of view that learning
happens from the inside reaching out rather than the outside pushing in that
helps people get unschooling.

Joyce

CopperScaleDragon

Last episode Anji Henderson <vual77@...>, had this to say:

>
>HEY you had memory!! I had to type in every program
>from code and then save it on an audio tape !! :)

The audio tape was what the original Atari and Commodore machines had
as well. The 5 1/4' drive was an amazing invention to all of us! The
30 + minutes it took to save a program was reduced to a few seconds.

The Timex-Sinclair had no storage device, only 2k of ram (internal
memory) with an option to expand to 16 k of ram. The 16 k module was a
box that plugged into the expansion slot on the back of the computer
and was bigger and heavier than the computer itself. (The computer
was about the size of today's palm computer.) When you think of our
machines with 128 meg and up being standard, it is amazing that 2k
would do anything, but it did. We had to type in each program we
wanted to use every time we turned on the machine as when you turned
it off, the program was gone! I still can not believe we actually
bought the thing!

>
>EXACTLY!! Although I compleetly feel that by making it
>avalable and making your self avalable to answer
>questions on such a topic, IS teaching.. Kind of like
>passive teaching... Some teaching needs to be passive
>and some needs to be direct -- either way it is
>teaching....

Maybe a more unschooling way to think of it is that we are available
to help guide when they need us. "Did you try looking on the web site
for a patch?" "Have you read the 'read.me' file on the CD?" "Maybe
you might try actually reading the doc that came with it!" LOL


>
>Exactly and that adventure you take I bet has you
>knowing more then the average Joe or Jo-ann...

Sometimes. It depends on the system and the software.

>Ah... Yes my son, also 13, has his own computer.. But
>he had to build it to have it ...

That is a great approach. My son did not build his computer this
time, but he has installed upgrades with his old system and is now
helping my husband get the old "E" Machine ready to go to family in
another city.

>and as for games he
>has to search most of them and down load a freeware or
>shareware so I can see it before it is purchased with
>who ever's money..

We get the legal demo versions a lot as well. I never allow him to
download the pirated stuff that is also available in abundance,
though.

Jane

I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended
up where I intended to be.
- Douglas Adams

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/02 6:55:43 AM, zintz@... writes:

<< When my very mechanically-inclined brother taught me how to drive those
many, many years ago, he told me that in order to be a competent driver the
most important thing I should know first of all is what to do if the car
doesn't work. He actually walked me through this. He said: "If the car
doesn't start, you pop the hood and take a look at the engine. Then, reach
for your wallet, pull out your triple-A card, and call for help.">>

<<He has a great sense of humor, but the point is we don't have know the
inner workings of a thing (unless you WANT to) to be able to use it well. >>

That's a great story. <g> I want a brother like that.

My dad thought it was important that I know how engines worked and he
convinced me to rebuild a VW engine with him. EEEEYEW. It was miserable.
He rebuilt it with me holding the oily parts gingerly and trying to
concentrate on what he was saying. My driver's ed teacher, too, went through
all KINDS of detail about how linkages and pumps and hoses and filters
worked. I suppose it helped. At least when I hear noises or feel grindings
I can say "transmission" or "fuel system." But that's like knowing a stomach
cramp from a muscle twinge. It's not hugely useful all by itself if I don't
know what to do NEXT.

But that theory about not needing to know how to build or fix it to use it
well applies to musical instruments, VCRs, writing (gerunds!?), gardening,
sports... Not every great jock is an expert on physics or anatomy or the
latest in sports injury technology.

Sandra

marji

Sandra wrote:

>That's a great story. <g> I want a brother like that.

I wish I could share him with you! He's a wonderful human being!

>My dad thought it was important that I know how engines worked and he
>convinced me to rebuild a VW engine with him. EEEEYEW...

Back in 1979 or so, my boyfriend (emphasis on the word "friend") gave me
this terrific book, which I still have. It's called Everything I Know
About Cars Would Just About Fill a Book, by Stephanie Judy. The book
allowed me to learn about the way cars really work without having to get me
fingernails black (not that that would bother me all that much). The
advantage was that mechanics were not able to take advantage of me too
badly because I could speak intelligently about what I thought might the
matter. I could give the car a sort of preoperative diagnosis, and the
mechanic could see that he wouldn't be able to pull the wool over my eyes
too badly.

To tie this into unschooling, I know I never would have wanted to take an
automechanics class in school, but when he gave me that book, I read it
cover-to-cover and gobbled it up (it helped, I suppose, that the book was
well written, well illustrated, written for someone like me, and very funny).

I still have the book, but I just saw that if you want to buy it on Amazon,
it's out of print and you'd have to pay a pretty penny for it used. But
it's a great book.

~marji~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>Back in 1979 or so, my boyfriend (emphasis on the word "friend") gave me
>this terrific book, which I still have. It's called Everything I Know
>About Cars Would Just About Fill a Book, by Stephanie Judy.

Hey! Stephanie is an unschooler, here in BC. Her daughter just left the
nest last summer. She's the one who wrote the book Making Music for the
Joy of It. I haven't read the car book, but the music book is awesome.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

marji

>Hey! Stephanie is an unschooler, here in BC. Her daughter just left the
>nest last summer. She's the one who wrote the book Making Music for the
>Joy of It. I haven't read the car book, but the music book is awesome.
>Tia

WOW!!! That is sooo cool!! I'm gonna get my hands on that book! Thanks
for telling me!

~marji~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Diane

I was interested in this. My dh knew DOS and all manner of programs and is
frustrated as hell with all this gooey (GUI, for purists) stuff. "Just give me a
command line any day," he says.

My 21-year-old son has been around computers forever and hates them.

My 75 (or so) year old MIL used typewriters at work for ever, and has a computer
but can't stand to use it--doesn't do so often or well.

My parents (retired teachers) in their late 60's never used one at work, except
perhaps for the last 2 or 3 years, and that very minimally. They're on the thing
all the time; use digital cameras, scan stuff, email, ebay, the whole nine
yards. They recently got a second computer.

I think it has more to do with the person than with previous conditioning.

:-) Diane

Fetteroll wrote:

> on 5/25/02 1:39 PM, Anji Henderson at vual77@... wrote:
>
> > Doesn't the manipulation of older
> > programs help with today's programs??

Fetteroll

on 5/27/02 11:00 AM, marji at zintz@... wrote:

> I still have the book, but I just saw that if you want to buy it on Amazon,
> it's out of print and you'd have to pay a pretty penny for it used. But
> it's a great book.

A really good site for searching for books is

http://www.addall.com

It searches a lot of different used book lists like Bibliofind, Abebooks,
Half.com.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/27/2002 5:23:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> So calling "making yourself available" teaching might be a fun debate about
> the malleability of the English language, I think it might just be
> confusing
> for people trying to get the concept of learning without teaching.

When I say that I didn't "TEACH" my children to read, my mother (recently
retired from public school teaching) gets exasperated with me. She says that
creating a learning environment and supporting children as THEY learn is the
very best kind of teaching and that I'm one of the best teachers she's ever
known. It drives her crazy that I want to NOT call that teaching.

SHE gets the difference between the "fill their heads with stuff I think they
should learn" kind of teaching versus what we do in my family. But she also
thinks that the "work" that I do -- having conversations, helping the kids
find resources they need, taking them to interesting events or activities,
etc., is simply "the best kind of teaching under ideal circumstances."

But - I do agree that it is best to make the distinction clear. Few people
will come to unschooling like my mom did -- seeing it as a logical extension
of what she says the very best teachers know really is best for kids --
minimally invasive education <G>. (As the Hole in the Wall project guy called
it.)

--pamS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/28/02 1:15:41 AM, PSoroosh@... writes:

<< When I say that I didn't "TEACH" my children to read, my mother (recently
retired from public school teaching) gets exasperated with me. >>

This same Pam who wrote that used to needle and poke at me, years ago, when I
said I wasn't teaching my kids to read. "You must be doing SOMETHING. What
are you doing?"

I persevered. <g>

<<She says that
creating a learning environment and supporting children as THEY learn is the
very best kind of teaching and that I'm one of the best teachers she's ever
known. It drives her crazy that I want to NOT call that teaching. >>

It's facilitating learning. That's the terminology which can make the
difference in how homeschooling parents make their decisions and comfort
themselves. "Teachers" have certain rights and duties which "learning
facilitators" do not.

When learning facilitators are employed by a school and get
teacher-paychecks, then they are the best kind of teachers. <g>

But if homeschooling parents insist on thinking of themselves as teachers,
all the history of "teacher" and every vision of a teacher in their
conscious, subconscious, and Jungian brains *WILL* color that and slant it
toward control and guilt and martyrdom and responsibility.

If they look at their children as active learners, and focus on that, then
they will connect what they are doing with all the happy learning visions in
their multi-level brains, and with all the happy learning instances and
opportunities in their internal model of the universe, and that will be
freeing instead of limiting.

"Teacher" points at one spot.
"Learner" points at the infinite number of other spots.


Sandra