Julie Stauffer

Fun things to do while stuck at home without a car:

bake
build a solar oven
garden
build a tree fort
train the dog
watch birds
learn to predict the weather
do experiments with water pressure
read everything you can get your hands on
build bat houses
raise rabbits
sew

But above all, do what the kids want to do. The marine park passes are a
great idea as long as the kids don't have to go if they don't want to or
they don't have to be quizzed on the animals, etc.. You might also check
out 4-H (its not just about raising steers) because many of the projects the
kids can complete almost completely at home.

Julie

[email protected]

Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder.
Question...this self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving
it. As I read the posts on the board I can see how this would work for my
family and for myself. However, every job gives you a test, you need to take
test in college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your
child for test taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that
everyone says children need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder.
>Question...this self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving
>it. As I read the posts on the board I can see how this would work for my
>family and for myself. However, every job gives you a test, you need to take
>test in college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your
>child for test taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that
>everyone says children need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!

A young woman I know wanted to go to the community college when she was
16. Having been unschooled and having no diploma, they wanted her to take
an English placement exam which involved writing an essay. She had never
taken a test in her life, nor written an essay. After writing several
essays and getting them critiqued by an English teacher, she got 96%.

If they want to do the thing they have to take the test for, they can learn
how to take tests. It's a skill that can be learned any time. In fact I
learned more about test-taking from my grade 7 art teacher than anywhere
else. She taught us lots of little hints like:
Look over the whole test first. See where the harder and easier parts are.
Do all the easier questions first, then do the harder ones.
Unless you're actually penalized more for a wrong answer, guess the ones
you don't know.
Leave time to proofread but don't change an answer unless you're sure it's
wrong. Your first answer was probably right.
There were probably more, but I can't think of them just now.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/23/02 11:42:45 AM, dbatiste7@... writes:

<< However, every job gives you a test >>

I took typing tests for a temp agency once, but other than that I've never
taken a test to get a job.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/23/2002 10:38:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> << However, every job gives you a test >>
>
> I took typing tests for a temp agency once, but other than that I've never
> taken a test to get a job.
>
> Sandra
>

I've missed the genesis and evolution of this thread (pun intended).

I am not clear how it is that anyone thinks that all jobs do not "test" the
job-holder.

In a sense, I believe that unschooling can be analogized to the omnipresent
testing of every real person in the real world, whether it be in the context
of employment, parenthood, relationships, Monopoly, or otherwise.

If people did not, in general, somewhat innately and somewhat learnedly,
respond to the "tests" presented by circumstance, then we would not, as a
society, thrive, progress, and/or exist.

Our desire to strive to address and resolve these "tests" is, to me, the
essence of unschooling. Particularly, of course, when the "tests" are those
of wanting to know that which is unknown, or to learn that which is not yet
learned.

Kate Davis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/23/02 8:50:05 PM, Katedavislawfirm@... writes:

<< I've missed the genesis and evolution of this thread (pun intended).

<<I am not clear how it is that anyone thinks that all jobs do not "test" the
job-holder. >>

Even reading e-mail lists tests people.

The original was about formal testing situations.

Sandra

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> I took typing tests for a temp agency once, but other than that I've
never
> taken a test to get a job.
>

The library here gives a test on the book classification system to all
of it's applicants. One of the hotels I worked for gave a test to
every applicant. But even a job for which there is no paper test to
get the job has one big test for the people who are employed . . . the
first week or so on the job. Just because it isn't a paper and pencil
quiz, doesn;t mean it isn't a test.

Bridget

Fetteroll

on 5/23/02 1:41 PM, dbatiste7@... at dbatiste7@... wrote:

> However, every job gives you a test, you need to take
> test in college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your
> child for test taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that
> everyone says children need?

One of the harder parts of getting unschooling is seeing how the world is
contained in the world, so to speak ;-) When things get pulled out and
treated as artificial, we get the feeling they are artificial. But they
aren't. It's only the artificial reproduction of them in schools that
doesn't exist in real life.

Before you asked for ideas on helping a child learn the sounds of the
alphabet. But if you look at your older kids, was grasping that so difficult
for them? The sounds *are* there in real life. If they weren't, then why
would we learn them (formally or informally). It's useful to walk so kids
walk. It's useful to talk so kids talk. The sounds the letters make are
useful for figuring out what the on screen commands in a video game mean
(among loads of other things!) so kids figure them out. ;-)

As people said, tests are a part of life. Our mouths will pass or fail us on
how well we've read directions or a recipe. ;-) Tests are also part of real
games people do just for fun. Video games, logic games, crossword puzzles,
computer games, personality quizzes and so on.

I think the one lesson about tests that kids don't need is that their entire
future is riding on how well they do. That's a way too prominent message in
school and kids are having tests thrown at them every which way. If your
kids want to take the SATs and know there's books and software and classes
to familiarize them with the style if they feel it's necessary and they know
they can take it as many times as they want (as far as I know!), then it's
not a big deal. (petersons.com, ets.org and collegeboard.com all have free
practice tests.)

BTW, there's a lot of information about unschooling and getting into college
at Learn in Freedom (http://www.learninfreedom.org/)

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/24/02 6:38:25 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< Just because it isn't a paper and pencil
quiz, doesn;t mean it isn't a test. >>

Well by that definition, finding out about the job is a test, filling out an
application and getting an interview is a test, deciding what to wear and
getting it all on straight and right-side out is a test, finding the place,
getting there on time, walking through the lobby...

The original question was about giving paper and pencil tests to kids to
prepare for all those <exaggerated amount of> required paper and pencil tests
which will <not> barrage people in life.

Sandra

Sandra

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> The original question was about giving paper and pencil tests to
kids to
> prepare for all those <exaggerated amount of> required paper and
pencil tests
> which will <not> barrage people in life.
>

And like I said before, I've had to take actual paper and pencil
tests as part of job apps. So has Rachel. There are employers out
there like that and unless you are independently wealthy or win the
lottery, you might have to take one to get a job.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/24/02 7:30:28 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< And like I said before, I've had to take actual paper and pencil
tests as part of job apps. So has Rachel. There are employers out
there like that and unless you are independently wealthy or win the
lottery, you might have to take one to get a job.
>>

The question is not whether there were some. The question was whether EVERY
job required it. They do not. I think most do not. If some do, then the
original statement was still in error.

Not all dogs have four legs, some have three.
Saying "All dogs will have three legs, so shouldn't we get our kids a
three-legged dog now?" is not a statement to be defended with "I've had a
three-legged dog."

Sandra

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> The question is not whether there were some. The question was
whether EVERY
> job required it. They do not. I think most do not. If some do,
then the
> original statement was still in error.
>

I never read anyone who said that EVERY job required it, only that it
might be a good thing to at least be aware of and maybe prepared to
face because some jobs require it.

I think the chances of a tornado hitting my house are pretty low, but
I still should know what to do if one is heading my way, (and note to
dh - going to the roof of the twelve story building you are in because
you wanna see it is NOT the right answer!)

It never hurts to know more than you need to at any given time.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/24/2002 6:30:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> you might have to take one to get a job.

I've had to take one. ONE - I'm fifty years old and I've worked full or part
time since I was 15 at many more jobs than I could ever list. I took a
written test one time - to apply for a civil service job as a telephone
switchboard operator for the city. I was 18 and I scored 3rd out of over
2,000 people taking the test (everybody applying for ANY civil service job
took the same test at the same time, once a year). It was a basic literacy
test and it included situational things like: You need to enter someone's
backyard on official city business. A sign on the gate says 'Beware of Dog.'
You should: a) open the gate and run in as fast as you can and hope the dog
doesn't see you, b) open the gate and call the dog to see if it is friendly,
c) go to the front door and ask the owners to control the dog before you
enter, and d) skip that house and go on to the next one.

--pamS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<I never read anyone who said that EVERY job required it, only that it
might be a good thing to at least be aware of and maybe prepared to
face because some jobs require it.>>

Then you're the second person in this thread to admit not having read it all.

PLEASE, to everyone involved, if you're skimming or just reading every third
post, try to refrain from insulting or correcting the commentary of those who
ARE reading carefully.

Yesterday, Thursday, here: " every job gives you a test"

In context:

<<Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder.
Question...this self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving
it. As I read the posts on the board I can see how this would work for my
family and for myself. However, every job gives you a test, you need to take
test in college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your
child for test taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that
everyone says children need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!>>


It's not metaphysical, it's not philosphical, it's not metaphorical, it's
just about plain old tests. And it says "every." And it is not true.

Sandra

[email protected]

Well, not every...sorry! But some.

Dee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

>It was a basic literacy
>test and it included situational things like: You need to enter someone's
>backyard on official city business. A sign on the gate says 'Beware of Dog.'
>You should: a) open the gate and run in as fast as you can and hope the dog
>doesn't see you, b) open the gate and call the dog to see if it is friendly,
>c) go to the front door and ask the owners to control the dog before you
>enter, and d) skip that house and go on to the next one.

The correct answer was D. Right? (It would have been for me!) (Gosh, I
hate tests) <vbg>

~marji~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/24/02 10:39:49 AM, zintz@... writes:

<< A sign on the gate says 'Beware of Dog.'
>You should: a) open the gate and run in as fast as you can and hope the dog
>doesn't see you, b) open the gate and call the dog to see if it is friendly,
>c) go to the front door and ask the owners to control the dog before you
>enter, and d) skip that house and go on to the next one.

The correct answer was D. Right? >>


Was there no extra credit for write-in answers? What if you were a dog
hypnotist, or what if you could develop a safe an inexpensive
dog-tranquilizing mist?

I'd go to the front door, but my second answer would be skip it.

I haven't had as many jobs as some people here, but two in college (no test),
one at Dunkin Donuts (no test), El Paragua restaurant (not test), taught in a
public school (no test, but I had taken a spelling test required before
certification--the other tests had been abandoned one by one as unfair or
unworkable), worked in the records office at the university here (no test),
worked for the SCA being the CEO and overseeing publications and mailings
(two different jobs, different times, no tests). But I did take a typing
test when I was 26. They asked how fast I could type and I shrugged and said
"60?" I had never broken 40 when I was in school, but I knew I had gotten
faster from typing for fun, words to songs, tests and handouts for school,
since I never used the textbooks when I taught), doing newsletters for
clubs... I tested 90. I shrugged again. They found me a job.


Sandra

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> Then you're the second person in this thread to admit not having
read it all.
>

I NEVER said any such thing. In fact, in the 20 or so hours between
the post you cite and this post the conversation about testing had
included several posts and at the point I wrote mine, NO ONE was
claiming that every job required a pen and paper test. In fact, the
poster of the one you cite below has since explained that based on HER
observation it would appear that not all but most jobs require written
tests.

> PLEASE, to everyone involved, if you're skimming or just reading
every third
> post, try to refrain from insulting or correcting the commentary of
those who
> ARE reading carefully.
>

I read every post. And I was under the impression that the moderators
were frowning upon the concept of pulling an old post out of context
like you did here.

> Yesterday, Thursday, here: " every job gives you a test"
>
> In context:
>
> <<Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder.
> Question...this self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am
loving
> it. As I read the posts on the board I can see how this would work
for my
> family and for myself. However, every job gives you a test, you need
to take
> test in college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare
your
> child for test taking if you are not giving them the "formal
education" that
> everyone says children need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!>>
>
>
> It's not metaphysical, it's not philosphical, it's not metaphorical,
it's
> just about plain old tests. And it says "every." And it is not
true.
>
> Sandra

Fetteroll

> I NEVER said any such thing.

And so on.

Okey dokey. This can stop now. It's not helping anyone understand
unschooling any better.

> And I was under the impression that the moderators
> were frowning upon the concept of pulling an old post out of context
> like you did here.

The moderator (of which I am the one and only) encourages clarity. Quoting
from an ongoing discussion to clear up some confusion is not only not
frowned upon but encouraged.

What *is* discouraged -- because it makes sense not because it's some
arbitrary rule! -- is returning to a past argument to rehash who said what
and who meant what. If it couldn't be settled at the time based on fresh
interpretations of what people were trying to communicate, it certainly
won't be settled by returning to it based on *memories* of interpretations
of what was said.

If it's some point of unschooling philosophy it's Truth exists independent
of how someone expressed themselves in the past and we should approach it
from a fresh angle to understand it better.

If it's not some point of unschooling philosophy, the argument gets a bit
tedious to others after a few emails.

If that's not clear, please ask and I can try to explain it better.

You may all return to your *unschooling* discussion now. :-)

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

[email protected]

My next door neighbor has a three legged dog.
I also once knew a three legged cat.
And a six fingered man.
But he didn't kill anyone's father.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/24/2002 10:15:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> << A sign on the gate says 'Beware of Dog.'
> >You should: a) open the gate and run in as fast as you can and hope the
> dog
> >doesn't see you, b) open the gate and call the dog to see if it is
> friendly,
> >c) go to the front door and ask the owners to control the dog before you
> >enter, and d) skip that house and go on to the next one.
>
> The correct answer was D. Right? >>
>
>
> Was there no extra credit for write-in answers? What if you were a dog
> hypnotist, or what if you could develop a safe an inexpensive
> dog-tranquilizing mist?

I don't know the correct answer - it wasn't a test to help us learn,
remember? It was a filter.

--pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

I don;t understand where this fit into the conversation because all I
have to go on is the subject line.

But anyway, we have a three legged cat and the Princess Bride is one
of our favorite movies.

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., <ElissaJC@c...> wrote:
> My next door neighbor has a three legged dog.
> I also once knew a three legged cat.
> And a six fingered man.
> But he didn't kill anyone's father.
> ~Elissa Cleaveland
> "It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of
instruction
> have
> not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A.
Einstein

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> > I NEVER said any such thing.
>
> And so on.
>
> Okey dokey. This can stop now. It's not helping anyone understand
> unschooling any better.
>


So, now you are saying that it's okay for Sandra to accuse me of
posting without reading the whole thread but it isn't okay for me to
correct that impression?

Bridget

Fetteroll

The following has absolutely nothing to do with unschooling so everyone but
Bridget is free to skip it without feeling they may miss that one idea that
will make unschooling crystal clear. ;-)

And if Dee is reading, I don't want you to feel the least bit guilty that
this has sparked from one of your phrases. This is such a tricky medium and
misinterpretations can spring up anytime anywhere, even with the most
innocent and clear phrasing!

on 5/25/02 9:29 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> So, now you are saying that it's okay for Sandra to accuse me of
> posting without reading the whole thread but it isn't okay for me to
> correct that impression?

My impression of what transpired matched what Sandra was saying. Funny thing
is that over the 8 years that I've been reading Sandra¹s writing, every time
I think she might be remembering wrong and I go back and check, darned if
she isn't right. You may interpret my confidence in what she remembers as
bias. I interpret it as learning from experience.

So, since my impression matched what Sandra was saying, I didn't check
before stepping in, but since you're pursuing this I will check just to make
sure.

Dee: However, every job gives you a test, you need to take test in college,
you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your child for test
taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that everyone says
children need?

Kate: I've missed the genesis and evolution of this thread (pun intended). I
am not clear how it is that anyone thinks that all jobs do not "test" the
job-holder.

[Me: Not meaning to insult Kate since she was merely being honest in
admitting having missed the beginning of the thread. It¹s just to show that
there was at least one person who said she hadn't read everything.]

Bridget: Just because it isn't a paper and pencil quiz, doesn;t mean it
isn't a test.

Sandra: The original question was about giving paper and pencil tests to
kids to prepare for all those <exaggerated amount of> required paper and
pencil tests which will <not> barrage people in life.

[Me: one might argue that Dee did not say "pencil and paper tests" but the
examples she gave: "you need to take test in college, you have to take a
driving test, how do you prepare your child for test taking if you are not
giving them the "formal education" that everyone says children need?" are
indeed formal, pencil and paper types of tests.]

Bridget: And like I said before, I've had to take actual paper and pencil
tests as part of job apps. So has Rachel. There are employers out there
like that and unless you are independently wealthy or win the lottery, you
might have to take one to get a job.

Sandra: The question is not whether there were some. The question was
whether EVERY job required it. They do not. I think most do not. If some
do, then the original statement was still in error.

Bridget: I never read anyone who said that EVERY job required it ...

[Me: If you never read anyone who said ³every job², when ³every job² was not
only in the original post but in the quotes of *4* posts that came before
you said you ³never read², then is it a great leap to conclude ³Then you're
the second person in this thread to admit not having read it all?²]

Bridget (cont.): I never read anyone who said that EVERY job required it
only that it might be a good thing to at least be aware of and maybe
prepared to face because some jobs require it.

[Me: What you say above doesn't match *anything* -- even *paraphrased* --
that anyone said previously. If you want to check the entire thread from
Dee's question up to the point of my moderation it is down below my
signature.]

Sandra: Then you're the second person in this thread to admit not having
read it all. PLEASE, to everyone involved, if you're skimming or just
reading every third post, try to refrain from insulting or correcting the
commentary of those who ARE reading carefully.

Dee: Well, not every...sorry! But some.

[Me: By this Dee is apparently realizing from the answers that she didn¹t
ask the question she really want to. But to be fair to anyone who answered
after this, Dee didn¹t include any quotes or anything so in the midst of 3
or 4 simultaneous conversations it wasn¹t really clear what these two
sentences were referring to.]

Bridget: I NEVER said any such thing. In fact, in the 20 or so hours
between the post you cite and this post the conversation about testing had
included several posts and at the point I wrote mine, NO ONE was claiming
that every job required a pen and paper test. In fact, the poster of the
one you cite below has since explained that based on HER observation it
would appear that not all but most jobs require written tests.

[Me: 3 sentences and 3 or 4 factual errors: 1) You did not say you did not
read in so many words, but your actions certainly lead to that conclusion.
2) The 5 posts including the ³every job² phrase were in the 20 hour period
you mention. 3) You will notice Dee did not say ³most². She said ³some.² 4)
And to call Dee¹s 2 short sentences an explanation based on her observation
is stretching the truth real close to the breaking point.]

Bridget: I read every post.

[Me: Previous to compiling this, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt
that you may have read the first post a bit too quickly and missed the
³every job² bit. But now that I¹ve laid out everything nice and neat and
since the ³every job² part was quoted 4 times, and then your memory and
summarization of what was said previously is *incredibly* faulty, my powers
of belief don¹t stretch quite that far. If you really are reading every post
my suggestion would be to no longer rely on your memory of what was said and
to go back and reread what was actually written before telling someone else
their memory is at fault. I would also suggest including direct quotes
since, at very the least, based on this and numerous past posts, *my*
confidence in your memory and abilities to accurately paraphrase is now
nil.]

Bridget: And I was under the impression that the moderators were frowning
upon the concept of pulling an old post out of context like you did here.

[Me: Since I¹ve patiently explained to you the reasoning behind the ³no
bringing up old posts² suggestion *at least* twice which was *after* one of
the previous moderators explained it *at least* once, to have this garbled
version of it posted to the list is really trying my patience.]

So once again, Sandra is right.

(Damn she¹s good.)

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

(a copy of this message has been sent to the Unschooling-dotcom moderators
list)

======== The posts from the thread this conversation refers to ========

on 5/23/02 1:41 PM, dbatiste7@... at dbatiste7@... wrote:

> Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder. Question...this
> self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving it. As I read the
> posts on the board I can see how this would work for my family and for myself.
> However, every job gives you a test, you need to take test in college, you
> have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your child for test taking if
> you are not giving them the "formal education" that everyone says children
> need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!


***** on 5/23/02 2:22 PM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:

>
>> Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder.
>> Question...this self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving
>> it. As I read the posts on the board I can see how this would work for my
>> family and for myself. However, every job gives you a test, you need to take
>> test in college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your
>> child for test taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that
>> everyone says children need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!
>>
> A young woman I know wanted to go to the community college when she was 16.
> Having been unschooled and having no diploma, they wanted her to take an
> English placement exam which involved writing an essay. She had never taken a
> test in her life, nor written an essay. After writing several essays and
> getting them critiqued by an English teacher, she got 96%.
>
> If they want to do the thing they have to take the test for, they can learn
> how to take tests. It's a skill that can be learned any time. In fact I
> learned more about test-taking from my grade 7 art teacher than anywhere else.
> She taught us lots of little hints like: Look over the whole test first. See
> where the harder and easier parts are. Do all the easier questions first, then
> do the harder ones. Unless you're actually penalized more for a wrong answer,
> guess the ones you don't know. Leave time to proofread but don't change an
> answer unless you're sure it's wrong. Your first answer was probably right.
> There were probably more, but I can't think of them just now. Tia

***** on 5/23/02 3:25 PM, ElissaJC@... at ElissaJC@...
wrote:

> Very, very often, the longest answer is the right one. YMMV. ~Elissa
> Cleaveland

***** on 5/23/02 10:37 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/23/02 11:42:45 AM, dbatiste7@... writes:
>
> << However, every job gives you a test >>
>
> I took typing tests for a temp agency once, but other than that I've never
> taken a test to get a job.
>
> Sandra

***** on 5/23/02 10:48 PM, Katedavislawfirm@... at
Katedavislawfirm@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/23/2002 10:38:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:

>> << However, every job gives you a test >>
>>
>> I took typing tests for a temp agency once, but other than that I've never
>> taken a test to get a job.
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>
> I've missed the genesis and evolution of this thread (pun intended).
>
> I am not clear how it is that anyone thinks that all jobs do not "test" the
> job-holder.
>
> In a sense, I believe that unschooling can be analogized to the omnipresent
> testing of every real person in the real world, whether it be in the context
> of employment, parenthood, relationships, Monopoly, or otherwise.
>
> If people did not, in general, somewhat innately and somewhat learnedly,
> respond to the "tests" presented by circumstance, then we would not, as a
> society, thrive, progress, and/or exist.
>
> Our desire to strive to address and resolve these "tests" is, to me, the
> essence of unschooling. Particularly, of course, when the "tests" are those
> of wanting to know that which is unknown, or to learn that which is not yet
> learned.
>
> Kate Davis
>
***** on 5/24/02 1:36 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 5/23/02 8:50:05 PM, Katedavislawfirm@... writes:
>
> << I've missed the genesis and evolution of this thread (pun intended).
>
> <<I am not clear how it is that anyone thinks that all jobs do not "test" the
> job-holder. >>
>
> Even reading e-mail lists tests people.
>
> The original was about formal testing situations.
>
> Sandra
>
***** on 5/24/02 8:36 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>>
>> I took typing tests for a temp agency once, but other than that I've never
>> taken a test to get a job.
>>
>
> The library here gives a test on the book classification system to all of it's
> applicants. One of the hotels I worked for gave a test to every applicant.
> But even a job for which there is no paper test to get the job has one big
> test for the people who are employed . . . the first week or so on the job.
> Just because it isn't a paper and pencil quiz, doesn;t mean it isn't a test.
>
> Bridget
>
***** on 5/24/02 8:48 AM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@... wrote:

> on 5/23/02 1:41 PM, dbatiste7@... at dbatiste7@... wrote:
>
>> However, every job gives you a test, you need to take test in college, you
>> have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your child for test taking if
>> you are not giving them the "formal education" that everyone says children
>> need?
>>
> One of the harder parts of getting unschooling is seeing how the world is
> contained in the world, so to speak ;-) When things get pulled out and treated
> as artificial, we get the feeling they are artificial. But they aren't. It's
> only the artificial reproduction of them in schools that doesn't exist in real
> life.
>
> Before you asked for ideas on helping a child learn the sounds of the
> alphabet. But if you look at your older kids, was grasping that so difficult
> for them? The sounds *are* there in real life. If they weren't, then why would
> we learn them (formally or informally). It's useful to walk so kids walk. It's
> useful to talk so kids talk. The sounds the letters make are useful for
> figuring out what the on screen commands in a video game mean (among loads of
> other things!) so kids figure them out. ;-)
>
> As people said, tests are a part of life. Our mouths will pass or fail us on
> how well we've read directions or a recipe. ;-) Tests are also part of real
> games people do just for fun. Video games, logic games, crossword puzzles,
> computer games, personality quizzes and so on.
>
> I think the one lesson about tests that kids don't need is that their entire
> future is riding on how well they do. That's a way too prominent message in
> school and kids are having tests thrown at them every which way. If your kids
> want to take the SATs and know there's books and software and classes to
> familiarize them with the style if they feel it's necessary and they know they
> can take it as many times as they want (as far as I know!), then it's not a
> big deal. (petersons.com, ets.org and collegeboard.com all have free practice
> tests.)
>
> BTW, there's a lot of information about unschooling and getting into college
> at Learn in Freedom (http://www.learninfreedom.org/)
>
> Joyce
>
***** on 5/24/02 9:00 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 5/24/02 6:38:25 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
>
> << Just because it isn't a paper and pencil quiz, doesn;t mean it isn't a
> test. >>
>
> Well by that definition, finding out about the job is a test, filling out an
> application and getting an interview is a test, deciding what to wear and
> getting it all on straight and right-side out is a test, finding the place,
> getting there on time, walking through the lobby...
>
> The original question was about giving paper and pencil tests to kids to
> prepare for all those <exaggerated amount of> required paper and pencil tests
> which will <not> barrage people in life.
>
> Sandra
>
***** on 5/24/02 9:26 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>> The original question was about giving paper and pencil tests to kids to
>> prepare for all those <exaggerated amount of> required paper and pencil tests
>> which will <not> barrage people in life.
>
> And like I said before, I've had to take actual paper and pencil tests as part
> of job apps. So has Rachel. There are employers out there like that and
> unless you are independently wealthy or win the lottery, you might have to
> take one to get a job.
>
> Bridget

***** on 5/24/02 9:38 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/24/02 7:30:28 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
>
> << And like I said before, I've had to take actual paper and pencil tests as
> part of job apps. So has Rachel. There are employers out there like that and
> unless you are independently wealthy or win the lottery, you might have to
> take one to get a job.

> The question is not whether there were some. The question was whether EVERY
> job required it. They do not. I think most do not. If some do, then the
> original statement was still in error.
>
> Not all dogs have four legs, some have three. Saying "All dogs will have three
> legs, so shouldn't we get our kids a three-legged dog now?" is not a statement
> to be defended with "I've had a three-legged dog."
>
> Sandra

***** on 5/24/02 9:50 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>> The question is not whether there were some. The question was whether EVERY
>> job required it. They do not. I think most do not. If some do, then the
>> original statement was still in error.
>
> I never read anyone who said that EVERY job required it, only that it might be
> a good thing to at least be aware of and maybe prepared to face because some
> jobs require it.
>
> I think the chances of a tornado hitting my house are pretty low, but I still
> should know what to do if one is heading my way, (and note to dh - going to
> the roof of the twelve story building you are in because you wanna see it is
> NOT the right answer!)
>
> It never hurts to know more than you need to at any given time.
>
> Bridget
>
***** on 5/24/02 11:30 AM, PSoroosh@... at PSoroosh@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/24/2002 6:30:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> rumpleteasermom@... writes:

>> you might have to take one to get a job.
>>
> I've had to take one. ONE - I'm fifty years old and I've worked full or part
> time since I was 15 at many more jobs than I could ever list. I took a written
> test one time - to apply for a civil service job as a telephone switchboard
> operator for the city. I was 18 and I scored 3rd out of over 2,000 people
> taking the test (everybody applying for ANY civil service job took the same
> test at the same time, once a year). It was a basic literacy test and it
> included situational things like: You need to enter someone's backyard on
> official city business. A sign on the gate says 'Beware of Dog.' You should:
> a) open the gate and run in as fast as you can and hope the dog doesn't see
> you, b) open the gate and call the dog to see if it is friendly, c) go to the
> front door and ask the owners to control the dog before you enter, and d) skip
> that house and go on to the next one.
>
> --pamS
>
***** on 5/24/02 11:44 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> <<I never read anyone who said that EVERY job required it, only that it might
> be a good thing to at least be aware of and maybe prepared to face because
> some jobs require it.>>
>
> Then you're the second person in this thread to admit not having read it all.
>
> PLEASE, to everyone involved, if you're skimming or just reading every third
> post, try to refrain from insulting or correcting the commentary of those who
> ARE reading carefully.
>
> Yesterday, Thursday, here: " every job gives you a test"
>
> In context:
>
> <<Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder.
> Question...this self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving it.
> As I read the posts on the board I can see how this would work for my family
> and for myself. However, every job gives you a test, you need to take test in
> college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your child for
> test taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that everyone
> says children need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!>>

> It's not metaphysical, it's not philosphical, it's not metaphorical, it's just
> about plain old tests. And it says "every." And it is not true.
>
> Sandra
>
***** on 5/24/02 12:17 PM, dbatiste7@... at dbatiste7@... wrote:

> Well, not every...sorry! But some.
>
> Dee
>
***** on 5/24/02 12:37 PM, marji at zintz@... wrote:

>
>> It was a basic literacy test and it included situational things like: You
>> need to enter someone's backyard on official city business. A sign on the
>> gate says 'Beware of Dog.' You should: a) open the gate and run in as fast as
>> you can and hope the dog doesn't see you, b) open the gate and call the dog
>> to see if it is friendly, c) go to the front door and ask the owners to
>> control the dog before you enter, and d) skip that house and go on to the
>> next one.
>>
> The correct answer was D. Right? (It would have been for me!) (Gosh, I hate
> tests) <vbg>
>
> ~marji~
>
***** on 5/24/02 1:07 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 5/24/02 10:39:49 AM, zintz@... writes:
>
> << A sign on the gate says 'Beware of Dog.' You should: a) open the gate and
> run in as fast as you can and hope the dog doesn't see you, b) open the gate
> and call the dog to see if it is friendly, c) go to the front door and ask the
> owners to control the dog before you enter, and d) skip that house and go on
> to the next one.
>
> The correct answer was D. Right? >>

> Was there no extra credit for write-in answers? What if you were a dog
> hypnotist, or what if you could develop a safe an inexpensive
> dog-tranquilizing mist?
>
> I'd go to the front door, but my second answer would be skip it.
>
> I haven't had as many jobs as some people here, but two in college (no test),
> one at Dunkin Donuts (no test), El Paragua restaurant (not test), taught in a
> public school (no test, but I had taken a spelling test required before
> certification--the other tests had been abandoned one by one as unfair or
> unworkable), worked in the records office at the university here (no test),
> worked for the SCA being the CEO and overseeing publications and mailings (two
> different jobs, different times, no tests). But I did take a typing test when
> I was 26. They asked how fast I could type and I shrugged and said "60?" I
> had never broken 40 when I was in school, but I knew I had gotten faster from
> typing for fun, words to songs, tests and handouts for school, since I never
> used the textbooks when I taught), doing newsletters for clubs... I tested
> 90. I shrugged again. They found me a job.

> Sandra
>
***** on 5/24/02 3:14 PM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>>
>> Then you're the second person in this thread to admit not having read it all.
>>
>
> I NEVER said any such thing. In fact, in the 20 or so hours between the post
> you cite and this post the conversation about testing had included several
> posts and at the point I wrote mine, NO ONE was claiming that every job
> required a pen and paper test. In fact, the poster of the one you cite below
> has since explained that based on HER observation it would appear that not all
> but most jobs require written tests.
>
>> PLEASE, to everyone involved, if you're skimming or just reading every third
>> post, try to refrain from insulting or correcting the commentary of those who
>> ARE reading carefully.
>>
>
> I read every post. And I was under the impression that the moderators were
> frowning upon the concept of pulling an old post out of context like you did
> here.
>
>> Yesterday, Thursday, here: " every job gives you a test"
>>
>> In context:
>>
>> <<Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder.
>> Question...this self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving
>> it. As I read the posts on the board I can see how this would work for my
>> family and for myself. However, every job gives you a test, you need to take
>> test in college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your
>> child for test taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that
>> everyone says children need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!>>
>>
>>
>> It's not metaphysical, it's not philosphical, it's not metaphorical, it's
>> just about plain old tests. And it says "every." And it is not true.
>>
>> Sandra
>>
***** on 5/24/02 5:35 PM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@... wrote:

>> I NEVER said any such thing.
>>
> And so on.
>
> Okey dokey. This can stop now. It's not helping anyone understand unschooling
> any better.
>
>> And I was under the impression that the moderators were frowning upon the
>> concept of pulling an old post out of context like you did here.
>>
> The moderator (of which I am the one and only) encourages clarity. Quoting
> from an ongoing discussion to clear up some confusion is not only not frowned
> upon but encouraged.
>
> What *is* discouraged -- because it makes sense not because it's some
> arbitrary rule! -- is returning to a past argument to rehash who said what and
> who meant what. If it couldn't be settled at the time based on fresh
> interpretations of what people were trying to communicate, it certainly won't
> be settled by returning to it based on *memories* of interpretations of what
> was said.
>
> If it's some point of unschooling philosophy it's Truth exists independent of
> how someone expressed themselves in the past and we should approach it from a
> fresh angle to understand it better.
>
> If it's not some point of unschooling philosophy, the argument gets a bit
> tedious to others after a few emails.
>
> If that's not clear, please ask and I can try to explain it better.
>
> You may all return to your *unschooling* discussion now. :-)
>
> Joyce Unschooling-dotcom moderator



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alan Tait

Come on Bridget, you've been on this list long enough to know it's run
on a one rule for Sandra one for everyone else basis.


######################################
Celebrate HE and campaign for guidance withdrawal
http://www.freedomineducation.org.uk
info@...
######################################


> -----Original Message-----
> From: rumpleteasermom [mailto:rumpleteasermom@...]
> Sent: 25 May 2002 14:29
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: A moderator interruption
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> > > I NEVER said any such thing.
> >
> > And so on.
> >
> > Okey dokey. This can stop now. It's not helping anyone understand
> > unschooling any better.
> >
>
>
> So, now you are saying that it's okay for Sandra to accuse me of
> posting without reading the whole thread but it isn't okay for me to
> correct that impression?
>
> Bridget
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line!
~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Fetteroll

on 5/25/02 2:14 PM, Alan Tait at alan_tait@... wrote:

> Come on Bridget, you've been on this list long enough to know it's run
> on a one rule for Sandra one for everyone else basis.

Did this help anyone understand more about unschooling?

I believe I documented the points that Bridget said were incorrect ad naseum
so there wouldn't be any confusion.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

havabentley

That's right, Bridget. Either get with their 'program' or become a
(moderated)lurker like the rest (numbering in the hundreds now) of
us! Actually, the lurking is quite entertaining ::rolling eyes in
disbelief that this place continues to get HEM support!::
Sarah Carothers


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Alan Tait" <alan_tait@h...> wrote:
> Come on Bridget, you've been on this list long enough to know it's
run
> on a one rule for Sandra one for everyone else basis.
>
>
> ######################################
> Celebrate HE and campaign for guidance withdrawal
> http://www.freedomineducation.org.uk
> info@f...
> ######################################
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rumpleteasermom [mailto:rumpleteasermom@j...]
> > Sent: 25 May 2002 14:29
> > To: Unschooling-dotcom@y...
> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: A moderator interruption
> >
> > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> > > > I NEVER said any such thing.
> > >
> > > And so on.
> > >
> > > Okey dokey. This can stop now. It's not helping anyone
understand
> > > unschooling any better.
> > >
> >
> >
> > So, now you are saying that it's okay for Sandra to accuse me of
> > posting without reading the whole thread but it isn't okay for me
to
> > correct that impression?
> >
> > Bridget
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject
line!
> ~~~
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Unschooling-dotcom-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Fetteroll

Pardon the disruption to those who are discussing unschooling ...

on 5/25/02 2:31 PM, havabentley at puddles@... wrote:

> That's right, Bridget. Either get with their 'program'

I think we can *all* get with the program by discussing unschooling which is
what presumably we all came here to discuss.

> or become a
> (moderated)lurker like the rest (numbering in the hundreds now) of
> us!

And while we're discussing unschooling, perhaps we can keep in mind that
clarity, honesty and accuracy are important.

Let's strive for clarity here so those who are new to the list are not
misled. Yes, the list is moderated. (Obviously.) But there is *no one* on
moderated status (as in needing their posts to be approved before they are
released to the list.)

> Actually, the lurking is quite entertaining ::rolling eyes in
> disbelief that this place continues to get HEM support!::

If anyone has a complaint with the moderation or with the way the list is
run, please email me privately so the list isn't disrupted. It would be a
good idea to keep a copy of all correspondence so if I can't resolve it you
can have a full copy of what was discussed and continue it with Helen
Hegener <HEM-Editor@...>

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

(a copy of this message has been sent to the Unschooling-dotcom moderators
list)

That's right, Bridget. Either get with their 'program' or become a
(moderated)lurker like the rest (numbering in the hundreds now) of
us! Actually, the lurking is quite entertaining ::rolling eyes in
disbelief that this place continues to get HEM support!::
Sarah Carothers


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Alan Tait" <alan_tait@h...> wrote:
> Come on Bridget, you've been on this list long enough to know it's
run
> on a one rule for Sandra one for everyone else basis.
>
>
> ######################################
> Celebrate HE and campaign for guidance withdrawal
> http://www.freedomineducation.org.uk
> info@f...
> ######################################
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rumpleteasermom [mailto:rumpleteasermom@j...]
> > Sent: 25 May 2002 14:29
> > To: Unschooling-dotcom@y...
> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: A moderator interruption
> >
> > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> > > > I NEVER said any such thing.
> > >
> > > And so on.
> > >
> > > Okey dokey. This can stop now. It's not helping anyone
understand
> > > unschooling any better.
> > >
> >
> >
> > So, now you are saying that it's okay for Sandra to accuse me of
> > posting without reading the whole thread but it isn't okay for me
to
> > correct that impression?
> >
> > Bridget
> >
> >

Fetteroll

on 5/26/02 9:52 AM, Betty Holder at ninnyridge03@... wrote:

> BUT this particular statement from the MODERATOR surprised and shocked me.

There are explanations but not excuses for my rude remark. I do apologize
for letting my tiredness leak out at the end.

I especially apologize to the list if my rudeness gives others a feeling of
free license to be rude in return and engage in finger pointing and name
calling. It doesn't help anyone understand more about unschooling.

If anyone doesn't like someone else's style of help, please just don't read
their posts.

So let's return to talking about unschooling.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

Betty Holder

To: [email protected]

>>>>>>So once again, Sandra is right.

(Damn she¹s good.)

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator<<<<<<<<<<<

I'm a little tired of this line of discussion and had made up my mind to delete any further comments without even reading them when I started to read this one. BUT this particular statement from the MODERATOR surprised and shocked me. For someone who is supposedly trying to *keep the peace* (so to speak)on this list, which I'm sure at times is trying to say the least, this statement seemed to be trying to stir up unrest(and I'm sure it was a success). Sandra may always be RIGHT, as you said, but Sandra is also downright RUDE in her comments sometimes. Nomatter how RIGHT someone is, that is hard to digest. Especially when it seems the moderator supports and encourages her.

Betty


(a copy of this message has been sent to the Unschooling-dotcom moderators
list)

======== The posts from the thread this conversation refers to ========

on 5/23/02 1:41 PM, dbatiste7@... at dbatiste7@... wrote:

> Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder. Question...this
> self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving it. As I read the
> posts on the board I can see how this would work for my family and for myself.
> However, every job gives you a test, you need to take test in college, you
> have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your child for test taking if
> you are not giving them the "formal education" that everyone says children
> need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!


***** on 5/23/02 2:22 PM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:

>
>> Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder.
>> Question...this self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving
>> it. As I read the posts on the board I can see how this would work for my
>> family and for myself. However, every job gives you a test, you need to take
>> test in college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your
>> child for test taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that
>> everyone says children need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!
>>
> A young woman I know wanted to go to the community college when she was 16.
> Having been unschooled and having no diploma, they wanted her to take an
> English placement exam which involved writing an essay. She had never taken a
> test in her life, nor written an essay. After writing several essays and
> getting them critiqued by an English teacher, she got 96%.
>
> If they want to do the thing they have to take the test for, they can learn
> how to take tests. It's a skill that can be learned any time. In fact I
> learned more about test-taking from my grade 7 art teacher than anywhere else.
> She taught us lots of little hints like: Look over the whole test first. See
> where the harder and easier parts are. Do all the easier questions first, then
> do the harder ones. Unless you're actually penalized more for a wrong answer,
> guess the ones you don't know. Leave time to proofread but don't change an
> answer unless you're sure it's wrong. Your first answer was probably right.
> There were probably more, but I can't think of them just now. Tia

***** on 5/23/02 3:25 PM, ElissaJC@... at ElissaJC@...
wrote:

> Very, very often, the longest answer is the right one. YMMV. ~Elissa
> Cleaveland

***** on 5/23/02 10:37 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/23/02 11:42:45 AM, dbatiste7@... writes:
>
> << However, every job gives you a test >>
>
> I took typing tests for a temp agency once, but other than that I've never
> taken a test to get a job.
>
> Sandra

***** on 5/23/02 10:48 PM, Katedavislawfirm@... at
Katedavislawfirm@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/23/2002 10:38:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:

>> << However, every job gives you a test >>
>>
>> I took typing tests for a temp agency once, but other than that I've never
>> taken a test to get a job.
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>
> I've missed the genesis and evolution of this thread (pun intended).
>
> I am not clear how it is that anyone thinks that all jobs do not "test" the
> job-holder.
>
> In a sense, I believe that unschooling can be analogized to the omnipresent
> testing of every real person in the real world, whether it be in the context
> of employment, parenthood, relationships, Monopoly, or otherwise.
>
> If people did not, in general, somewhat innately and somewhat learnedly,
> respond to the "tests" presented by circumstance, then we would not, as a
> society, thrive, progress, and/or exist.
>
> Our desire to strive to address and resolve these "tests" is, to me, the
> essence of unschooling. Particularly, of course, when the "tests" are those
> of wanting to know that which is unknown, or to learn that which is not yet
> learned.
>
> Kate Davis
>
***** on 5/24/02 1:36 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 5/23/02 8:50:05 PM, Katedavislawfirm@... writes:
>
> << I've missed the genesis and evolution of this thread (pun intended).
>
> <<I am not clear how it is that anyone thinks that all jobs do not "test" the
> job-holder. >>
>
> Even reading e-mail lists tests people.
>
> The original was about formal testing situations.
>
> Sandra
>
***** on 5/24/02 8:36 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>>
>> I took typing tests for a temp agency once, but other than that I've never
>> taken a test to get a job.
>>
>
> The library here gives a test on the book classification system to all of it's
> applicants. One of the hotels I worked for gave a test to every applicant.
> But even a job for which there is no paper test to get the job has one big
> test for the people who are employed . . . the first week or so on the job.
> Just because it isn't a paper and pencil quiz, doesn;t mean it isn't a test.
>
> Bridget
>
***** on 5/24/02 8:48 AM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@... wrote:

> on 5/23/02 1:41 PM, dbatiste7@... at dbatiste7@... wrote:
>
>> However, every job gives you a test, you need to take test in college, you
>> have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your child for test taking if
>> you are not giving them the "formal education" that everyone says children
>> need?
>>
> One of the harder parts of getting unschooling is seeing how the world is
> contained in the world, so to speak ;-) When things get pulled out and treated
> as artificial, we get the feeling they are artificial. But they aren't. It's
> only the artificial reproduction of them in schools that doesn't exist in real
> life.
>
> Before you asked for ideas on helping a child learn the sounds of the
> alphabet. But if you look at your older kids, was grasping that so difficult
> for them? The sounds *are* there in real life. If they weren't, then why would
> we learn them (formally or informally). It's useful to walk so kids walk. It's
> useful to talk so kids talk. The sounds the letters make are useful for
> figuring out what the on screen commands in a video game mean (among loads of
> other things!) so kids figure them out. ;-)
>
> As people said, tests are a part of life. Our mouths will pass or fail us on
> how well we've read directions or a recipe. ;-) Tests are also part of real
> games people do just for fun. Video games, logic games, crossword puzzles,
> computer games, personality quizzes and so on.
>
> I think the one lesson about tests that kids don't need is that their entire
> future is riding on how well they do. That's a way too prominent message in
> school and kids are having tests thrown at them every which way. If your kids
> want to take the SATs and know there's books and software and classes to
> familiarize them with the style if they feel it's necessary and they know they
> can take it as many times as they want (as far as I know!), then it's not a
> big deal. (petersons.com, ets.org and collegeboard.com all have free practice
> tests.)
>
> BTW, there's a lot of information about unschooling and getting into college
> at Learn in Freedom (http://www.learninfreedom.org/)
>
> Joyce
>
***** on 5/24/02 9:00 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 5/24/02 6:38:25 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
>
> << Just because it isn't a paper and pencil quiz, doesn;t mean it isn't a
> test. >>
>
> Well by that definition, finding out about the job is a test, filling out an
> application and getting an interview is a test, deciding what to wear and
> getting it all on straight and right-side out is a test, finding the place,
> getting there on time, walking through the lobby...
>
> The original question was about giving paper and pencil tests to kids to
> prepare for all those <exaggerated amount of> required paper and pencil tests
> which will <not> barrage people in life.
>
> Sandra
>
***** on 5/24/02 9:26 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>> The original question was about giving paper and pencil tests to kids to
>> prepare for all those <exaggerated amount of> required paper and pencil tests
>> which will <not> barrage people in life.
>
> And like I said before, I've had to take actual paper and pencil tests as part
> of job apps. So has Rachel. There are employers out there like that and
> unless you are independently wealthy or win the lottery, you might have to
> take one to get a job.
>
> Bridget

***** on 5/24/02 9:38 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/24/02 7:30:28 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
>
> << And like I said before, I've had to take actual paper and pencil tests as
> part of job apps. So has Rachel. There are employers out there like that and
> unless you are independently wealthy or win the lottery, you might have to
> take one to get a job.

> The question is not whether there were some. The question was whether EVERY
> job required it. They do not. I think most do not. If some do, then the
> original statement was still in error.
>
> Not all dogs have four legs, some have three. Saying "All dogs will have three
> legs, so shouldn't we get our kids a three-legged dog now?" is not a statement
> to be defended with "I've had a three-legged dog."
>
> Sandra

***** on 5/24/02 9:50 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>> The question is not whether there were some. The question was whether EVERY
>> job required it. They do not. I think most do not. If some do, then the
>> original statement was still in error.
>
> I never read anyone who said that EVERY job required it, only that it might be
> a good thing to at least be aware of and maybe prepared to face because some
> jobs require it.
>
> I think the chances of a tornado hitting my house are pretty low, but I still
> should know what to do if one is heading my way, (and note to dh - going to
> the roof of the twelve story building you are in because you wanna see it is
> NOT the right answer!)
>
> It never hurts to know more than you need to at any given time.
>
> Bridget
>
***** on 5/24/02 11:30 AM, PSoroosh@... at PSoroosh@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/24/2002 6:30:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> rumpleteasermom@... writes:

>> you might have to take one to get a job.
>>
> I've had to take one. ONE - I'm fifty years old and I've worked full or part
> time since I was 15 at many more jobs than I could ever list. I took a written
> test one time - to apply for a civil service job as a telephone switchboard
> operator for the city. I was 18 and I scored 3rd out of over 2,000 people
> taking the test (everybody applying for ANY civil service job took the same
> test at the same time, once a year). It was a basic literacy test and it
> included situational things like: You need to enter someone's backyard on
> official city business. A sign on the gate says 'Beware of Dog.' You should:
> a) open the gate and run in as fast as you can and hope the dog doesn't see
> you, b) open the gate and call the dog to see if it is friendly, c) go to the
> front door and ask the owners to control the dog before you enter, and d) skip
> that house and go on to the next one.
>
> --pamS
>
***** on 5/24/02 11:44 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> <<I never read anyone who said that EVERY job required it, only that it might
> be a good thing to at least be aware of and maybe prepared to face because
> some jobs require it.>>
>
> Then you're the second person in this thread to admit not having read it all.
>
> PLEASE, to everyone involved, if you're skimming or just reading every third
> post, try to refrain from insulting or correcting the commentary of those who
> ARE reading carefully.
>
> Yesterday, Thursday, here: " every job gives you a test"
>
> In context:
>
> <<Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder.
> Question...this self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving it.
> As I read the posts on the board I can see how this would work for my family
> and for myself. However, every job gives you a test, you need to take test in
> college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your child for
> test taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that everyone
> says children need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!>>

> It's not metaphysical, it's not philosphical, it's not metaphorical, it's just
> about plain old tests. And it says "every." And it is not true.
>
> Sandra
>
***** on 5/24/02 12:17 PM, dbatiste7@... at dbatiste7@... wrote:

> Well, not every...sorry! But some.
>
> Dee
>
***** on 5/24/02 12:37 PM, marji at zintz@... wrote:

>
>> It was a basic literacy test and it included situational things like: You
>> need to enter someone's backyard on official city business. A sign on the
>> gate says 'Beware of Dog.' You should: a) open the gate and run in as fast as
>> you can and hope the dog doesn't see you, b) open the gate and call the dog
>> to see if it is friendly, c) go to the front door and ask the owners to
>> control the dog before you enter, and d) skip that house and go on to the
>> next one.
>>
> The correct answer was D. Right? (It would have been for me!) (Gosh, I hate
> tests) <vbg>
>
> ~marji~
>
***** on 5/24/02 1:07 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 5/24/02 10:39:49 AM, zintz@... writes:
>
> << A sign on the gate says 'Beware of Dog.' You should: a) open the gate and
> run in as fast as you can and hope the dog doesn't see you, b) open the gate
> and call the dog to see if it is friendly, c) go to the front door and ask the
> owners to control the dog before you enter, and d) skip that house and go on
> to the next one.
>
> The correct answer was D. Right? >>

> Was there no extra credit for write-in answers? What if you were a dog
> hypnotist, or what if you could develop a safe an inexpensive
> dog-tranquilizing mist?
>
> I'd go to the front door, but my second answer would be skip it.
>
> I haven't had as many jobs as some people here, but two in college (no test),
> one at Dunkin Donuts (no test), El Paragua restaurant (not test), taught in a
> public school (no test, but I had taken a spelling test required before
> certification--the other tests had been abandoned one by one as unfair or
> unworkable), worked in the records office at the university here (no test),
> worked for the SCA being the CEO and overseeing publications and mailings (two
> different jobs, different times, no tests). But I did take a typing test when
> I was 26. They asked how fast I could type and I shrugged and said "60?" I
> had never broken 40 when I was in school, but I knew I had gotten faster from
> typing for fun, words to songs, tests and handouts for school, since I never
> used the textbooks when I taught), doing newsletters for clubs... I tested
> 90. I shrugged again. They found me a job.

> Sandra
>
***** on 5/24/02 3:14 PM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>>
>> Then you're the second person in this thread to admit not having read it all.
>>
>
> I NEVER said any such thing. In fact, in the 20 or so hours between the post
> you cite and this post the conversation about testing had included several
> posts and at the point I wrote mine, NO ONE was claiming that every job
> required a pen and paper test. In fact, the poster of the one you cite below
> has since explained that based on HER observation it would appear that not all
> but most jobs require written tests.
>
>> PLEASE, to everyone involved, if you're skimming or just reading every third
>> post, try to refrain from insulting or correcting the commentary of those who
>> ARE reading carefully.
>>
>
> I read every post. And I was under the impression that the moderators were
> frowning upon the concept of pulling an old post out of context like you did
> here.
>
>> Yesterday, Thursday, here: " every job gives you a test"
>>
>> In context:
>>
>> <<Great ideas. I will be saving this one to my favorites folder.
>> Question...this self directed learning....sounds wonderful and I am loving
>> it. As I read the posts on the board I can see how this would work for my
>> family and for myself. However, every job gives you a test, you need to take
>> test in college, you have to take a driving test, how do you prepare your
>> child for test taking if you are not giving them the "formal education" that
>> everyone says children need? Did I explain that right? I hope so!>>
>>
>>
>> It's not metaphysical, it's not philosphical, it's not metaphorical, it's
>> just about plain old tests. And it says "every." And it is not true.
>>
>> Sandra
>>
***** on 5/24/02 5:35 PM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@... wrote:

>> I NEVER said any such thing.
>>
> And so on.
>
> Okey dokey. This can stop now. It's not helping anyone understand unschooling
> any better.
>
>> And I was under the impression that the moderators were frowning upon the
>> concept of pulling an old post out of context like you did here.
>>
> The moderator (of which I am the one and only) encourages clarity. Quoting
> from an ongoing discussion to clear up some confusion is not only not frowned
> upon but encouraged.
>
> What *is* discouraged -- because it makes sense not because it's some
> arbitrary rule! -- is returning to a past argument to rehash who said what and
> who meant what. If it couldn't be settled at the time based on fresh
> interpretations of what people were trying to communicate, it certainly won't
> be settled by returning to it based on *memories* of interpretations of what
> was said.
>
> If it's some point of unschooling philosophy it's Truth exists independent of
> how someone expressed themselves in the past and we should approach it from a
> fresh angle to understand it better.
>
> If it's not some point of unschooling philosophy, the argument gets a bit
> tedious to others after a few emails.
>
> If that's not clear, please ask and I can try to explain it better.
>
> You may all return to your *unschooling* discussion now. :-)
>
> Joyce Unschooling-dotcom moderator



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