[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/02 12:47:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< This being the unschooling list, I feel strongly that I people should
suggest
you try NOT to buy used curriculuanything.
>>

This is a good suggestion...because I think to transition to total
unschooling, you will waste your money on a curriculum.
And it will reinforce the fears.
It's fear that is driving his desires right now....thinking outside the box
takes time.
Ask him what he'd do if it were suddenly summer vacation right now.
Maybe point out some famous people that were homeschooled/self-taught.
Einstein did lousy in school, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson....
There are oodles of people in history that did badly in school, were
considered quite daft and ended up very succesful in their own way.
I would definitely give him a copy of Grace Lewellyns's "Teenage Liberation
Handbook".
Just to get him thinking of the possibilities.
Spend your money on art supplies, interesting foods, trips to the beach,
mountains or desert, visits to aquariums, museums, whatever piques his
interest (or yours) rather than spending it on a curriculum.
If unschooling is the true desire, then the curriculum is just going to slow
the journey to there.
Ren

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/2002 1:33:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:


> Spend your money on art supplies, interesting foods, trips to the beach,
> mountains or desert, visits to aquariums, museums, whatever piques his
> interest (or yours) rather than spending it on a curriculum.
> If unschooling is the true desire, then the curriculum is just going to
> slow
> the journey to there.

I am beginning to understand that, but the issue is that my son doesn't! No
matter how I explain it he doesn't seem to accept it and I can't imagine
*forcing* someone to *unschool*. The funny part is that this whole week
we've done nothing formal as far as learning stuff goes... just read books
and played games and explored the backyard (not that there's a whole lot to
explore, but the younger kids find it fasicinating!) and he hasn't mentioned
it at all! Maybe it will end up working for him after all. : )

Sandra
Homeschooling Mom to Five


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>
>I am beginning to understand that, but the issue is that my son doesn't! No
>matter how I explain it he doesn't seem to accept it and I can't imagine
>*forcing* someone to *unschool*. The funny part is that this whole week
>we've done nothing formal as far as learning stuff goes... just read books
>and played games and explored the backyard (not that there's a whole lot to
>explore, but the younger kids find it fasicinating!) and he hasn't mentioned
>it at all! Maybe it will end up working for him after all. : )

One other thing that might help him is for you to notice and write down
some of the stuff you see him learning. If he has a moment of worrying
about not learning anything, you can whip out your list and say, "But look
at this. You learned this and that and that and that in the last week."
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/27/02 1:24:53 PM, bianchifam7@... writes:

<< I am beginning to understand that, but the issue is that my son doesn't!
No
matter how I explain it he doesn't seem to accept it and I can't imagine
*forcing* someone to *unschool*. >>

There's a world of life between paying big bucks for him to continue to do
something you don't really believe in and "forcing him to unschool."

You could ask him if he's willing to pay for his own curriculum. (I guess
he'll say "NO!, are you crazy!?") And you could say you're not either. <g>

Or just tell him to wait a while and you can look for a curriculum if he
still wants one in.... October. By then he'll probably not want one.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/27/2002 8:38:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> You could ask him if he's willing to pay for his own curriculum. (I guess
> he'll say "NO!, are you crazy!?") And you could say you're not either. <g>
>
>
> Or just tell him to wait a while and you can look for a curriculum if he
> still wants one in.... October. By then he'll probably not want one.

Good ideas! : )
My oldest dd, when she finds something she really wants would save up her
money for books/curriculum, but there is *no way* Shawn would! LOL
Sandra
Homeschooling Mom to Five


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Camille Bauer

My oldest dd, when she finds something she really wants would save up her
money for books/curriculum, but there is *no way* Shawn would! LOL >>>

That seems cruel to me. It seems like a contrived way to force unschooling.

I think asking him what it is he really wants and him seeing that you (or anyone else ((school)) ) will not try and coerce him. He needs to have some time to know that things are not going to be forced on him, and that could take some time and yes, that might even mean letting him get a curriculum. You don't have to spend hundreds of dollars.

CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/27/02 10:39:45 PM, goddessofwisdom2@... writes:

<< My oldest dd, when she finds something she really wants would save up her
money for books/curriculum, but there is *no way* Shawn would! LOL >>>

That seems cruel to me. It seems like a contrived way to force unschooling.
>>

Does it not seem contrived, counterproductive, and manipulative, then, for a
child who believes falsely that formal school-at-home is the only way to
learn to maintain that "need" even though the parents don't believe in
putting their money and energy toward something they no longer believe is
good for him?

If kids are home by choice (and this I don't know), and the parents don't
believe in a curriculum or formal learning, then the kids aren't free to
choose $500 worth of boxed school, because $500 worth of boxed school isn't
free.

And a cheaper curriculum is NOT the path to unschooling which this list
should be helping families find.

Sandra

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> And a cheaper curriculum is NOT the path to unschooling which this
list
> should be helping families find.
>

Why? Shouldn't the goal be to help people find ways to overcome
hurdles and detours? If someone's child is that upset with the idea
of unschooling, giving them what they ask for (or a variation of it)
in a non-coercive way and discussing it frequently might be the best
way to get them to see how unnecessary it is . . . especially in a
family where the other children have embraced unschooling fully.

Denying it to someone who is that insistent, seems counterproductive
and also seems to go against the "child-led" aspect of unschooling.

I think there are many paths that lead to unschooling and many detours
along the way. I'm certainly not going to tell someone they have to
use the path I took.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/02 7:35:03 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< I'm certainly not going to tell someone they have to
use the path I took.>>

They need to take a path that will get there, though.

Dragging it out for years before they understand it isn't beneficial.
Justifying not understanding unschooling isn't the best way to help people
get it.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 4/28/02 7:27 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> And a cheaper curriculum is NOT the path to unschooling which this list
> should be helping families find.

No, I don't think we should help families find it but I think we should help
families help their kids.

I really think it depends on the kid. If a kid was in love with curriculum
because that's the mentality he'd bought into, then I'd definitely find ways
to ease him out of it.

If he was in love with the *idea* of curriculum and I knew his need for it
wouldn't extend to actually doing it, I'd help him find what he wants --
which isn't necessarily what he's asking for. (I thought the ABeka was
already purchased. I certainly wouldn't fork over that kind of money for an
experiment that I was sure was going to fail.)

Maybe what he really wants is a plan. So I'd sit down with him and discuss
what his goals are and ways to meet them and help him draw up a plan.

I think we'd also need to talk about nonacademic goals like happiness and
satisifying who he is.

Then after a week or a month or whatever, I'd talk to him again to see if he
wanted to revamp his goals and this methods and how they were working so
that he didn't get the idea that if his methods weren't working or if the
goal didn't seem so desirable that he wasn't a failure.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 8:34:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> I thought the ABeka was
> already purchased. I certainly wouldn't fork over that kind of money for an
> experiment that I was sure was going to fail

I wish... that would make it much easier! : ) Give him the books, have him
use them for a couple of weeks and then be OK with unschooling. LOL! We
haven't ever used big, complete curriculum packages like A Beka EVER... it's
always been eclectic mixes of stuff covering the basics. Anyway, thanks to
everyone for all of your help and suggestions - you guys are wonderful!

Sandra
Homeschooling Mom to Five


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 4:29:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> Does it not seem contrived, counterproductive, and manipulative, then, for a
>
> child who believes falsely that formal school-at-home is the only way to
> learn to maintain that "need" even though the parents don't believe in
> putting their money and energy toward something they no longer believe is
> good for him?
>
> If kids are home by choice (and this I don't know), and the parents don't
> believe in a curriculum or formal learning, then the kids aren't free to
> choose $500 worth of boxed school, because $500 worth of boxed school isn't
>
> free.
>
> And a cheaper curriculum is NOT the path to unschooling which this list
> should be helping families find.
>
> Sandra
>

OK, I guess I better give a better background of why/how we've been
homeschooling up until last week, and maybe you guys can see how my ds is
coming from where he's coming from! : )
My older two attended a private, Catholic school through 4th and 2nd grade.
My ds was miserable there his last year and begged to be homeschooled. So we
decided that that would be the best thing for him. We then gave my dd the
choice of staying or leaving. After quite a bit of thought, she decided she
wanted to be homeschooled. Neither of them was challenged at all there
academically and were bored to death. My dd liked the social aspect, which
would have been her only reason for staying, I think.
So, our first year home I use Sonlight which my long time homeschooling
sister reccomended to me. We got a lot accomplished that year, and the kids
seemed to enjoy it, I'd say so far, that's been our best year at home so far.
Probably because a) the kids were just *so* happy and thankful to be home
they'd have done just about anything asked of them to continue with it and b)
it was our only year without either a pregnant mom or a baby around.

The next year, we didn't use Sonlight because we couldn't afford it for all
of the kids (last year's stuff had mostly been loaned from my sister and it
was just for the older two). We hasd Alpha Omega math, Learning Language
Arts through Literature, planned on using the Sonlight booklists and the
library for history, and then just some various units and such for science.
BUT, we didn't really do much of that, the entire school year I was either
pregnant or there was a newborn baby needing lots of care. We did get some
things accomplished, but it was usually after some arguing.

This year was pretty similar to the last one, only maybe a little more of a
relaxed curriculum.

My son is just now, at the thought of unschooling wanting all this
A Beka and such and I just can't bring myself to spend $500 on something
he'll drop in a few weeks and not get much of anything out of it. Even used,
it would still cost atleast $250 or so which is a lot to spend for less than
a month of worksheets. Even spending $75 for a bunch of Spectrum type
workbooks is a lot for us when it's something we *know* will be dropped
shortly and not have much benefit for the time used. And just a few little
structured things *isn't* what he wants. So, for right now, Sandra's
suggestions have probably been the best ones for our situation. My dd and I
are going to a homeschool convention next month, so even saying that we'll
hold off on buying it 'til then would probably be enough, because as I've
said before, he just talks about how he wants A Beka and doesn't do the stuff
we have right now.

Does that make things any clearer? I honestly don't want to get caught up in
listing all the educational things he does because that's been a major issue
here - me wanting the kids to do things "to fill up it this lesson plan" (we
had been filling in blank lesson plans with what we've done school wise,
after it's been completed) and that would be a terrible thing for *us* to do,
while trying to move closer to unschooling. I am currently struggling with
that issue, actually - for example, when I was out, my 12 yod told me that
her 8 and 6 y/o brothers had asked her to help her play a Family Math game
and my first question was "Did you put it on the lesson plan?" Her comment
was "Mooommm... I thought you wanted to *unschool*, not just do different
things."

Sandra
Homeschooling Mom to Five


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Camille Bauer

And a cheaper curriculum is NOT the path to unschooling which this list
should be helping families find.>>>

Sandra,

You are "preaching to the choir" on this issue. I completely agree. What I am saying is that tricking him or setting up contrived scenarios is not the way either.

This kid needs some time, needs to do decompress.

CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jo Phillips

Camille wrote:
>
>Sandra,
>
>You are "preaching to the choir " on this issue. I completely agree.
What I am saying is that tricking
>him or setting up contrived scenarios is not the way either.
>
>This kid needs some time, needs to do decompress.
>

That's true, Camille. It's just another way to move away from schoolish
things. Can you think of a bigger turn off than a poorly written, cheap
curriculum? In my 15 yrs of parenting, I've learned one sure thing...
the more I refuse them of some 'thing' the more they seem to want it.
It's taken a long time to realize that *their own conclusions* that
something is not for them weighs far more than me telling them so. (and
that's quite different from me not telling them but them making a choice
because they know how I'm going to react if they make the 'wrong' one).

~oo~
_______________________________________________________________
Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at
http://www.mail2world.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 1:03:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bianchifam7@... writes:


> My son is just now, at the thought of unschooling wanting all this
> A Beka and such and I just can't bring myself to spend $500 on something
> he'll drop in a few weeks and not get much of anything out of it. Even
> used,
> it would still cost atleast $250 or so which is a lot to spend for less
> than
> a month of worksheets. Even spending $75 for a bunch of Spectrum type
> workbooks is a lot for us when it's something we *know* will be dropped
> shortly and not have much benefit for the time used. And just a few little
>
> structured things *isn't* what he wants.

I just want to be perfectly clear with everyone on this list, and most
particularly with bianchifam7 Sandra, that I do not believe that it is
"wrong," even in the teensiest weensiest bit, to not get a curriculum where
cost prohibits same. If you can't get, you can't get.

I do, however, continue to believe that, if cost were not a factor, then a
curriculum, if child-selected, child-imposed, child-guided, child-directed,
and child-controlled, is not "anti-unschooling."

Kate Davis
Law Office of Kathleen M.P. Davis, Chartered
1400 Centrepark Blvd., Suite 950
West Palm Beach, FL 33401


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jo Phillips

Go to your local Goodwill and pick up some used ABeka materials there.
Some will be used, yes. but you can often find things that have only a
few pages marked on. It'll cost you all of a few dollars.
Then, it won't be long before he'll be over this craving for ABeka and
you can introduce him to all the *other* wonderful books by visiting
Borders and the library ;-)
~oo~
_______________________________________________________________
Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at
http://www.mail2world.com

<-----Original Message----->
>In a message dated 4/28/2002 1:03:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>bianchifam7@... writes:
>
>
> > My son is just now, at the thought of unschooling wanting all this
> > A Beka and such and I just can't bring myself to spend $500 on
something
> > he'll drop in a few weeks and not get much of anything out of it.
Even
> > used,
> > it would still cost atleast $250 or so which is a lot to spend for
less
> > than
> > a month of worksheets. Even spending $75 for a bunch of Spectrum
type
> > workbooks is a lot for us when it's something we *know* will be
dropped
> > shortly and not have much benefit for the time used. And just a few
little
> >
> > structured things *isn't* what he wants.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Sun, 28 Apr 2002 13:17:18 EDT Katedavislawfirm@... writes:

> I do, however, continue to believe that, if cost were not a factor,
> then a
> curriculum, if child-selected, child-imposed, child-guided,
> child-directed,
> and child-controlled, is not "anti-unschooling."

My daughter (unschooled all the way) has been thinking about going to
school next year (if the school schedule doesn't interfere with the
soccer practice schedule, which may be a problem because the school is in
a tiny town of 800 people, and soccer is in a larger town of 50,000
people 35 miles away... but I digress). She's very curious, mostly. We're
trying to set up a visit but it's been hard, with all the stuff she does
(so I think that actually fitting in school every day will be even
harder... and I've said that... we'll see). So, anyway, she wanted some
"schoolbooks", to see what schoolkids did. In that case, I think
acquiring schoolbooks for her was the right thing to do, and I did.

The total cost, BTW, was .65. I had a 3rd grade spelling workbook lying
around that I'd bought at a thrift store for .15 and was planning to sell
on ebay, and I gave that to her. She did most of one chapter, including
setting up a "schedule" for herself of doing one page a day. We talked a
lot about phonics, because some of the worksheets involved sorting words
according to the vowel sounds, and she didn't know what a "long o" or a
"soft a" were - although she can read anything and surprised me by
spelling almost all of the words correctly for the "pretest". That whole
thing lasted less than a week, although she did ask me to give her words
to spell aloud sometimes for a weeks weeks after that.

The math textbook was .50, at the library booksale. She did the first
chapter test, writing the answers in the text, although I pointed out
that the schools wouldn't accept that, and she pointed out that this was
*her* book that we'd bought, not a school's book. I explained what the
meant by "number families", and what < and > meant. She asked if the
answers were all correct, and I told her they were, and she wrote "A+" at
the top and that was the last of the math book. That was all in February,
I think....

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/02 12:27:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< I do, however, continue to believe that, if cost were not a factor, then a
curriculum, if child-selected, child-imposed, child-guided, child-directed,
and child-controlled, is not "anti-unschooling."

>>
It is anti-unschooling if the child in question has fear and doens't think
they are learning without it....which is exactly what this scenario looked
like.
A child with trust in themselves, with joy in learning is probably not going
to choose a packaged curriculum over real life!!
Would you?
Ren

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 6:16:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:


> It is anti-unschooling if the child in question has fear and doens't think
> they are learning without it....which is exactly what this scenario looked
> like.
> A child with trust in themselves, with joy in learning is probably not
> going
> to choose a packaged curriculum over real life!!
> Would you?
> Ren

At times I would choose a packaged curriculum as *part* of real life (and not
necessarily "over" it).

In my opinion, unschooling requires a parent to trust the child to make the
right decisions for the child, at the right time, regarding education.
Elsewise, it is parent-directed learning, and *not* "unschooling.

Kate Davis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jocelyn Vilter

I mostly agree with these ideas, but what if, for example, you and your
family were planning a vacation. What if you thought your only option was
to stay home from work for two weeks. What if you didn't KNOW you had
another option, an option to go SomePlaceNewAndExciting? If you had always
just stayed home for two weeks and that had been fine up until now, but
someone enlightened you about the idea of Other Places, might you not be
intrigued but also a little bit fearful? I think one of our biggest
responsibilities as unschooling parents is to introduce new ideas to our
kids. We have to willing to hear "no thanks", but I think we still need to
keep offering. If you don't know all your options, how then can you make
good choices?

Jocelyn Vilter

>
> In my opinion, unschooling requires a parent to trust the child to make the
> right decisions for the child, at the right time, regarding education.
> Elsewise, it is parent-directed learning, and *not* "unschooling.

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 7:04:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jvilter@... writes:


> I mostly agree with these ideas, but what if, for example, you and your
> family were planning a vacation. What if you thought your only option was
> to stay home from work for two weeks. What if you didn't KNOW you had
> another option, an option to go SomePlaceNewAndExciting? If you had always
> just stayed home for two weeks and that had been fine up until now, but
> someone enlightened you about the idea of Other Places, might you not be
> intrigued but also a little bit fearful? I think one of our biggest
> responsibilities as unschooling parents is to introduce new ideas to our
> kids. We have to willing to hear "no thanks", but I think we still need to
> keep offering. If you don't know all your options, how then can you make
> good choices?
>
> Jocelyn Vilter
>

I agree with you. It was my understanding, based upon the posts, that this
particular child DID know the alternatives to curricula, and had decided that
those options were not appropriate for him, at this time.

I do agree with you, though.

We do not disagree.

Kate Davis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jocelyn Vilter

Good, I don't think we disagree either. I've lost track of the original
post and how much the child did or did not know about unschooling. In a
hypothetical case then...<G>

Jocelyn Vilter

> From: Katedavislawfirm@...
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 19:10:13 EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] curriculum
>
> I agree with you. It was my understanding, based upon the posts, that this
> particular child DID know the alternatives to curricula, and had decided that
> those options were not appropriate for him, at this time.
>
> I do agree with you, though.
>
> We do not disagree.

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 6:35:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> Why? Shouldn't the goal be to help people find ways to overcome
> hurdles and detours? If someone's child is that upset with the idea
> of unschooling, giving them what they ask for (or a variation of it)
> in a non-coercive way and discussing it frequently might be the best
> way to get them to see how unnecessary it is . . . especially in a
> family where the other children have embraced unschooling fully.
>
> Denying it to someone who is that insistent, seems counterproductive
> and also seems to go against the "child-led" aspect of unschooling.
>

If my 11 yo wants a math workbook, we get her one. She likes them. Roxana
(14) once wanted to be taught how to diagram sentences - I had no clue - but
I bought her a workbook.

But, I think what Sandra is reacting to is that there is a different tone
here in Sandra (mom of 5)'s son's desire. HE specifically said he doesn't
want to unschool, that he wants his mom to tell him what to do. In other
words, he isn't wanting to take responsibility, he is wanting to NOT take it.


So - Sandra is saying that as unschoolers we should not recommend catering to
THAT aspect of the situation. I agree.

However, I also think that she can take what he wants (to have his learning
controlled, to have some sort of guarantee that he'll be taught "what he
needs to know", etc.) and offer him something that might appeal to him but
still hand over responsibility to him.

There are lots of very cool "learning materials" - and I guess I call them
curriculum, but they aren't that in the sense that some people mean that. I'm
thinking of something like the "Math for Smartypants" book by Marilyn Burns
or "The Joy of Mathematics" by Theoni Pappas or maybe some of the Brown Paper
School books. They are activity-based. The authors speak TO the reader,
they're not in that weird 3rd person passive tone that most textbooks use.
They follow what is called a "constructivist" theory of mathematical
education - which seems to me to be a good way to get launched into
unschooling - which is really, to me, radical constructivism applies to all
areas of learning. Here is a little definition of constructivist mathematics
education: "...constructivism is the philosophy that knowledge cannot be
provided in some final form from parent to child or from teacher to student
but must be actively assembled in the mind by each learner in his or her own
way. The responsibility for expanding what one knows, or for constructing new
knowledge, rests primarily on the learner and his or her efforts to achieve
understanding."

So - I do think that it is possible to choose "better or worse" materials and
that if a kid wants "school" - that instead of just getting cheap workbooks
and doing school or leaving him floundering by just tossing him "to the
workbooks" (sort of like "to the wolves") that maybe getting some of these
kinds of learning materials - that DO hand the responsiblity for learning
over to the learner - is a better step. Let the kid think you're "doing
school" if that's what he need to think -- but don't do it. Instead, come up
with some materials that have activities to do - together or on his own.

--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 4:04:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jvilter@... writes:


> If you don't know all your options, how then can you make
> good choices?

My son *does* know that he has other options, though and is still saying he
doesn't want to unschool. Though, now he's saying that he wants to because
"it'd be easier to just not learn anything..." still most certaintly doesn't
understand unschooling, but it might be easier to do it with him starting out
with this attitude than his previous one of wanting tons of text and
workbooks, plus I won't have to spend any extra money for him to get over it.
: )

Sandra
Homeschooling Mom to Five


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jocelyn Vilter

I don't mean to keep beating this poor horse, but I guess I'd restate what I
said this way: If you don't understand all your options, then how can you
make informed choices?

If he doesn't understand unschooling enough to trust it, then I'm not sure
what you can do without undermining his trust of you. I think I'd get him
some nice, inexpensive workbooks (the Key to series springs to mind) and
continue to point out in a sweet and calm way, the fun and Learning that's
going on with the rest of his siblings.

We don't go *anywhere* without my sons "office". This time around, it's an
orange plastic case we bought at an office supply store. Unlike a backpack,
it's flat and gives him a hard surface to draw on. There is a clamp at the
top too, to keep papers from blowing around. About one inch deep, and
hinged, it holds all his important stuff. He keeps paper and pencils for
drawing, various card games and D & D manuals, dice, tape and scissors with
him. We just got a travel Master Mind game this week that fits perfectly.
Maybe you could come up with something like this for your son, and he could
carry it with him on the way to fun places. The workbooks could be in
there, as well as the kind of stuff I mentioned above (or whatever else he's
interested in?). That way, he'd have to option to spend time on the
workbooks or to participate in whatever else was going on at the time. I'll
bet that eventually, given enough other interesting options, he'd slack off
on the workbooks.

> From: bianchifam7@...
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:51:07 EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] curriculum
>
> In a message dated 4/28/2002 4:04:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> jvilter@... writes:
>
>
>> If you don't know all your options, how then can you make
>> good choices?
>
> My son *does* know that he has other options, though and is still saying he
> doesn't want to unschool. Though, now he's saying that he wants to because
> "it'd be easier to just not learn anything..." still most certaintly doesn't
> understand unschooling, but it might be easier to do it with him starting out
> with this attitude than his previous one of wanting tons of text and
> workbooks, plus I won't have to spend any extra money for him to get over it.
> : )
>
> Sandra
> Homeschooling Mom to Five

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Katedavislawfirm@a... wrote:

> At times I would choose a packaged curriculum as *part* of real life
(and not
> necessarily "over" it).
>
> In my opinion, unschooling requires a parent to trust the child to
make the
> right decisions for the child, at the right time, regarding
education.
> Elsewise, it is parent-directed learning, and *not* "unschooling.
>
> Kate Davis

Kate,
I agree with you on this one completely. Turn the situation on it's
side a little and ponder it the other way; If I said that little
Johnny was afraid to go to public school because he didn't think he
would learn enough there. Would you then force him to do it?
So if little Johnny is afraid of unschooling and mom wants him to
embrace it, which is the better way to get him there, acknowledge his
fears and slowing help him overcome them by offering what he needs
when he needs it, or just acting like his fears and thoughts don't
matter and refusing to help him get what HE wants for 'school', and in
this case, 'school' means whatever little Johnny wants it to mean.

Or is it only child-led if the child leads the way the unschooling mom
wants him to, or thinks he should? Regardless of where it came
from that fear of unschooling is part of the child. You aren't
necessarily going to make that go away by putting it off for a month.
It might get better or it might get worse.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 8:17:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> Kate,
> I agree with you on this one completely. Turn the situation on it's
> side a little and ponder it the other way; If I said that little
> Johnny was afraid to go to public school because he didn't think he
> would learn enough there. Would you then force him to do it?
> So if little Johnny is afraid of unschooling and mom wants him to
> embrace it, which is the better way to get him there, acknowledge his
> fears and slowing help him overcome them by offering what he needs
> when he needs it, or just acting like his fears and thoughts don't
> matter and refusing to help him get what HE wants for 'school', and in
> this case, 'school' means whatever little Johnny wants it to mean.
>
> Or is it only child-led if the child leads the way the unschooling mom
> wants him to, or thinks he should? Regardless of where it came
> from that fear of unschooling is part of the child. You aren't
> necessarily going to make that go away by putting it off for a month.
> It might get better or it might get worse.
>
> Bridget
>

Bridget:

I would love to discuss this issue on site, but I cannot for the life of me
understand the issue as described. Can you rephrase it?

Kate Davis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., PSoroosh@a... wrote:

>
> So - I do think that it is possible to choose "better or worse"
materials and
> that if a kid wants "school" - that instead of just getting cheap
workbooks
> and doing school or leaving him floundering by just tossing him "to
the
> workbooks" (sort of like "to the wolves") that maybe getting some of
these
> kinds of learning materials - that DO hand the responsiblity for
learning
> over to the learner - is a better step. Let the kid think you're
"doing
> school" if that's what he need to think -- but don't do it. Instead,
come up
> with some materials that have activities to do - together or on his
own.
>
> --pamS

Yes, that's pretty much what I think. If a kidlet thinks he can't
learn without a curriculum, don't just say, "yes you can" and be done
with it. Give them what they are asking for (within reason) but then
leave the responsibility to actually do it with them.

Then if the rest of the family is unschooling in a more traditional'
(weird word to use here but I think it fits) way, maybe the one
schooly child will come around to it naturally and with less stress
and worry.

Bridget

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Katedavislawfirm@a... wrote:

>
> Bridget:
>
> I would love to discuss this issue on site, but I cannot for the
life of me
> understand the issue as described. Can you rephrase it?
>
> Kate Davis
>

I'm not sure I can. And I guess my thinking is colored a little by
Wyndham's anxiety right now, but it seems to me, that if a child is
afraid of letting go of school completely, it might make them worse to
'force' unschooling on him. Although it sounds like the issue is now
resolving itself for Sandra.

And there is this thought running through my head, that it sounds like
some here are saying it should only be child-led if it fits some
expectation of what unschooling should be. In general people say that
curriculum is fine if the child chooses it, but then given specific
situations, they say no, don't do that.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/02 6:17:35 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< Regardless of where it came
from that fear of unschooling is part of the child. You aren't
necessarily going to make that go away by putting it off for a month.
It might get better or it might get worse.>>

IF that were true, it's only a month.

But I don't think it's true, and I think it's a statement that shows a lack
of understanding of unschooling. If a child goes the month of May, 2002,
without a formal curriculum and learns NOTHING, then we have all of us made a
big mistake.

If a child goes the month of May, 2002, and learns quite a bit just becuase
it's impossible not to, then in June, July and August, he will EASILY (if he
really is stuck in school-mode) slack, because it's summer vacation. And in
September, he and his mother can look back over four months of learning and
make a different agreement then if he wants to.

A month of no-learning is not going to happen.

Sandra