Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] EMAIL SUGGESTION: ATTN MODERATOR
Camille Bauer
Valerie suggests
<<With 690 people on here, it might be a good idea to do "replies go to
the author.">>
Please dont! No one else would see the responses. What is the point then?
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<With 690 people on here, it might be a good idea to do "replies go to
the author.">>
Please dont! No one else would see the responses. What is the point then?
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Valerie Cifuentes
What if the list was set under GROUP SETTINGS : RELPIES GO TO THE AUTHOR
OF THE MESSAGE.
That way the bantering is kept to a very low. Those who care to have
heated "discussions" can do so without involving the entire list?
I have been out of town and I'm new to the list. I'm trying to filter
though to find the good stuff to help me with my unschooling decision,
but I've discovered that over half of the emails are replies back and
forth on several different agreements! It's wearing me out.
I joined this list over a week ago and found that I had to clear away
quite a bit each day.
With 690 people on here, it might be a good idea to do "replies go to
the author."
I am a busy mom and I'm trying to figure out if this list is really
going to be overly time consuming or if it's going to weigh my heart
down with bickering back and forth? I'm thinking of leaving.
I don't find the exposure to arguing, nit picking and intolerance of
each other enlightening at all,
Some are forgetting to change the subject lines to what the topic has
morphed into. I can safely say almost 1/3 haven't been faithful in this
area so far. It's exhausting!
I feel sorry for those that do "digest" what a mess it would be.
I'm on a list that does "replies go to the author of the message" and
there are virtually NO REPEATS.
You may change the To on your email to address the group when it is
needed, and if you feel that the group will benefit by something you say
in reply to someone's post, then that's great too, but at least this
airing out will be kept to a minimum. Most people will not post to the
list something they know should have gone to a specific person, most
people are reluctant to post to someone's box something that is
offensive or rude in any way.
I don't sit at my PC all day, so I can't keep up with this.
I wish members would keep the subject line as detailed as possible.
Moderator: Can you email me privately as to why the list can't be set at
"replies go to author?"
I have met a lady in my hsing group that was on this list and couldn't
keep up either. It looks like it will happen to me if things continue as
they are.
Some of folks have been on here a long time and obviously feel this is
their territory. It doesn't seem that there is a lot of friendliness to
new comers. (Though I have seen some nice people here too! Please don't
misunderstand me.)
As I can see, USing is just now getting a lot of recognition, many
families will be checking into it, it'd be nice to have a non-hostile
environment to converse in. I would like to refer people here, but I
feel I'd be complicating their lives if do it now.
I'm saying this is love
Thank you!
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Valerie Cifuentes
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
I CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT FORWARDS, CHAIN LETTERS AND PETITIONS. THEY ARE
FILLING UP MY BOX AND TAKING UP MY TIME. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING!
http://nolen.home.texas.net/valerie/Cifuentes.html
I'm A Navy Brat & Wife of HM2 Cifuentes; Active Duty Navy, & Mother of
Three Young Navy Brats!
*~*PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE AS I CHECK EMAIL ONCE IN THE MORNING & EVENING
AFTER 3:00PM AND NOT ON SUNDAY (THE LORD'S DAY.)*~*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OF THE MESSAGE.
That way the bantering is kept to a very low. Those who care to have
heated "discussions" can do so without involving the entire list?
I have been out of town and I'm new to the list. I'm trying to filter
though to find the good stuff to help me with my unschooling decision,
but I've discovered that over half of the emails are replies back and
forth on several different agreements! It's wearing me out.
I joined this list over a week ago and found that I had to clear away
quite a bit each day.
With 690 people on here, it might be a good idea to do "replies go to
the author."
I am a busy mom and I'm trying to figure out if this list is really
going to be overly time consuming or if it's going to weigh my heart
down with bickering back and forth? I'm thinking of leaving.
I don't find the exposure to arguing, nit picking and intolerance of
each other enlightening at all,
Some are forgetting to change the subject lines to what the topic has
morphed into. I can safely say almost 1/3 haven't been faithful in this
area so far. It's exhausting!
I feel sorry for those that do "digest" what a mess it would be.
I'm on a list that does "replies go to the author of the message" and
there are virtually NO REPEATS.
You may change the To on your email to address the group when it is
needed, and if you feel that the group will benefit by something you say
in reply to someone's post, then that's great too, but at least this
airing out will be kept to a minimum. Most people will not post to the
list something they know should have gone to a specific person, most
people are reluctant to post to someone's box something that is
offensive or rude in any way.
I don't sit at my PC all day, so I can't keep up with this.
I wish members would keep the subject line as detailed as possible.
Moderator: Can you email me privately as to why the list can't be set at
"replies go to author?"
I have met a lady in my hsing group that was on this list and couldn't
keep up either. It looks like it will happen to me if things continue as
they are.
Some of folks have been on here a long time and obviously feel this is
their territory. It doesn't seem that there is a lot of friendliness to
new comers. (Though I have seen some nice people here too! Please don't
misunderstand me.)
As I can see, USing is just now getting a lot of recognition, many
families will be checking into it, it'd be nice to have a non-hostile
environment to converse in. I would like to refer people here, but I
feel I'd be complicating their lives if do it now.
I'm saying this is love
Thank you!
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Valerie Cifuentes
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
I CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT FORWARDS, CHAIN LETTERS AND PETITIONS. THEY ARE
FILLING UP MY BOX AND TAKING UP MY TIME. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING!
http://nolen.home.texas.net/valerie/Cifuentes.html
I'm A Navy Brat & Wife of HM2 Cifuentes; Active Duty Navy, & Mother of
Three Young Navy Brats!
*~*PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE AS I CHECK EMAIL ONCE IN THE MORNING & EVENING
AFTER 3:00PM AND NOT ON SUNDAY (THE LORD'S DAY.)*~*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Valerie Cifuentes
You would see responses when folks posted them public, but to fill up
boxes with the back and forth thing it's overwhelming. Like right now,
I'm discussing whether or not "replies go to author" are a good idea.
And look, unless someone is taking a poll, why should I send this to
someone not interested in it at all? Now quadruple the scenario. If I
wanted all to know what I'm saying to you now because I personally felt
it would benefit the list, then I would simply reply and change the
email addy.
Also, folks are replying under other subject headings. Quite a bit of
"back and forth" went on under the
"math experience" maybe up to 30 emails! I went though a lot! No one
bothered to change the heading to whatever they were discussing. To tell
you the truth, I had so many emails I don't know if I ever got down to
the original "math experience" post or not. :o|
Quite a few of the posts are "okay" type things too, or a suggestion to
one particular person that would effect the rest of the list.
Can't the "replies to author" be tried out for a few days to see if it
would work? Otherwise, I'm going to the smaller list that's less
aggressive.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Valerie Cifuentes
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
I CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT FORWARDS, CHAIN LETTERS AND PETITIONS. THEY ARE
FILLING UP MY BOX AND TAKING UP MY TIME. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING!
http://nolen.home.texas.net/valerie/Cifuentes.html
I'm A Navy Brat & Wife of HM2 Cifuentes; Active Duty Navy, & Mother of
Three Young Navy Brats!
*~*PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE AS I CHECK EMAIL ONCE IN THE MORNING & EVENING
AFTER 3:00PM AND NOT ON SUNDAY (THE LORD'S DAY.)*~*
-----Original Message-----
From: Camille Bauer [mailto:goddessofwisdom2@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:11 PM
To: Unschooling_dotcom
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] EMAIL SUGGESTION: ATTN MODERATOR
Valerie suggests
<<With 690 people on here, it might be a good idea to do "replies go to
the author.">>
Please dont! No one else would see the responses. What is the point
then?
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
boxes with the back and forth thing it's overwhelming. Like right now,
I'm discussing whether or not "replies go to author" are a good idea.
And look, unless someone is taking a poll, why should I send this to
someone not interested in it at all? Now quadruple the scenario. If I
wanted all to know what I'm saying to you now because I personally felt
it would benefit the list, then I would simply reply and change the
email addy.
Also, folks are replying under other subject headings. Quite a bit of
"back and forth" went on under the
"math experience" maybe up to 30 emails! I went though a lot! No one
bothered to change the heading to whatever they were discussing. To tell
you the truth, I had so many emails I don't know if I ever got down to
the original "math experience" post or not. :o|
Quite a few of the posts are "okay" type things too, or a suggestion to
one particular person that would effect the rest of the list.
Can't the "replies to author" be tried out for a few days to see if it
would work? Otherwise, I'm going to the smaller list that's less
aggressive.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Valerie Cifuentes
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
I CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT FORWARDS, CHAIN LETTERS AND PETITIONS. THEY ARE
FILLING UP MY BOX AND TAKING UP MY TIME. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING!
http://nolen.home.texas.net/valerie/Cifuentes.html
I'm A Navy Brat & Wife of HM2 Cifuentes; Active Duty Navy, & Mother of
Three Young Navy Brats!
*~*PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE AS I CHECK EMAIL ONCE IN THE MORNING & EVENING
AFTER 3:00PM AND NOT ON SUNDAY (THE LORD'S DAY.)*~*
-----Original Message-----
From: Camille Bauer [mailto:goddessofwisdom2@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:11 PM
To: Unschooling_dotcom
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] EMAIL SUGGESTION: ATTN MODERATOR
Valerie suggests
<<With 690 people on here, it might be a good idea to do "replies go to
the author.">>
Please dont! No one else would see the responses. What is the point
then?
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 4/23/02 5:37 PM, Valerie Cifuentes at homeschool@... wrote:
What are your goals for your kids?
What do you fear most as far as homeschooling your kids is concerned?
Do you want unschooling in a nutshell? Just ask and people will try to
define the undefinable in a few sentences. You won't "get" unschooling from
them but it might be enough to give you a better idea.
But you might also try the Unschooling.com message boards.
(http://www.unschooling.com) I find them much easier to read because the
messages tend to stick to the topics and you can see all the messages
together for that topic.
And there are also some books, recommended at Unschooling.com and
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com They're easier to grab in the brief minutes
of busy motherhood :-) It's tought to take the computer into the bathroom
;-) Books do lack that indefinable quality of discussion that sparks the
brain cells. But they might be enough to help you be able to filter faster.
You'll be able to see what you need to pay attention to more easily.
might help people remember.
answers to the questions we ask. Most will come from the questions that
other people ask, from serendipitous posts, from having read something that
didn't seem relevant that later pops up in life.
Getting unschooling, like understanding life, involves having the whole
world thrown at you and learning what to pay attention to at anyone time
while still letting the rest wash over you. If you had just concentrated on
the words your child wanted to know (milk, up, juice, for instance) without
immersing him in a sea of the English language, he wouldn't realize there
was more to English than what he could immediately grasp. He couldn't
realize that he needed to ask about sentences if he didn't know they
existed.
Or maybe picture trying to learn how to sail, one factoid at a time. Which
factoids would you choose to learn? In order to learn to sail, you need to
immerse yourself in it so you can experience the whole big picture. The same
is basically true of any new endeavor, especially something as huge as
unschooling.
wonder if you're still subscribed ;-) Right now it is very active. And
usually it is fairly active.
I'm not insensitive to this concern that a number of people have brought up.
But it might be like asking a Mack Truck to be a sports car. This list is an
ongoing messy dialog about changing thinking. It isn't easy for most people
to understand how learning can happen without teaching, especially because
unschooling needs to look different for every family because it is centered
around each unique child.
I am concerned about the bickering. There's no reason to waste people's time
with nasty personal notes back and forth. But some people see debate as
bickering and debate does need to happen in order for many people (all
people?) to get unschooling.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
> I'm trying to filterHow about asking some questions. :-)
> though to find the good stuff to help me with my unschooling decision,
What are your goals for your kids?
What do you fear most as far as homeschooling your kids is concerned?
Do you want unschooling in a nutshell? Just ask and people will try to
define the undefinable in a few sentences. You won't "get" unschooling from
them but it might be enough to give you a better idea.
But you might also try the Unschooling.com message boards.
(http://www.unschooling.com) I find them much easier to read because the
messages tend to stick to the topics and you can see all the messages
together for that topic.
And there are also some books, recommended at Unschooling.com and
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com They're easier to grab in the brief minutes
of busy motherhood :-) It's tought to take the computer into the bathroom
;-) Books do lack that indefinable quality of discussion that sparks the
brain cells. But they might be enough to help you be able to filter faster.
You'll be able to see what you need to pay attention to more easily.
> Some are forgetting to change the subject lines to what the topic hasI can do a biweekly reminder (which is as often as Yahoo will do them). That
> morphed into. I can safely say almost 1/3 haven't been faithful in this
> area so far. It's exhausting!
might help people remember.
> Moderator: Can you email me privately as to why the list can't be set atBecause only a tiny portion of getting unschooling will come from direct
> "replies go to author?"
answers to the questions we ask. Most will come from the questions that
other people ask, from serendipitous posts, from having read something that
didn't seem relevant that later pops up in life.
Getting unschooling, like understanding life, involves having the whole
world thrown at you and learning what to pay attention to at anyone time
while still letting the rest wash over you. If you had just concentrated on
the words your child wanted to know (milk, up, juice, for instance) without
immersing him in a sea of the English language, he wouldn't realize there
was more to English than what he could immediately grasp. He couldn't
realize that he needed to ask about sentences if he didn't know they
existed.
Or maybe picture trying to learn how to sail, one factoid at a time. Which
factoids would you choose to learn? In order to learn to sail, you need to
immerse yourself in it so you can experience the whole big picture. The same
is basically true of any new endeavor, especially something as huge as
unschooling.
> I have met a lady in my hsing group that was on this list and couldn'tThe list does go through periods of great activity and periods where you
> keep up either. It looks like it will happen to me if things continue as
> they are.
wonder if you're still subscribed ;-) Right now it is very active. And
usually it is fairly active.
I'm not insensitive to this concern that a number of people have brought up.
But it might be like asking a Mack Truck to be a sports car. This list is an
ongoing messy dialog about changing thinking. It isn't easy for most people
to understand how learning can happen without teaching, especially because
unschooling needs to look different for every family because it is centered
around each unique child.
I am concerned about the bickering. There's no reason to waste people's time
with nasty personal notes back and forth. But some people see debate as
bickering and debate does need to happen in order for many people (all
people?) to get unschooling.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
Gabrielle Ward
Hi. My name is Gabrielle.
I've been lurking for a week and I don't have time to read all the emails either, as I am home/unschooling my 3, and I'd rather spend most of my time with them.
I agree with Valerie, in her idea. It works VERY well at the indigo adults group.
IE. If it's for the group, just change the 'to' line.
Very easy!!!
Gabrielle in Australia
I've been lurking for a week and I don't have time to read all the emails either, as I am home/unschooling my 3, and I'd rather spend most of my time with them.
I agree with Valerie, in her idea. It works VERY well at the indigo adults group.
IE. If it's for the group, just change the 'to' line.
Very easy!!!
Gabrielle in Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: Valerie Cifuentes
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 9:05 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] EMAIL SUGGESTION: ATTN MODERATOR
You would see responses when folks posted them public, but to fill up
boxes with the back and forth thing it's overwhelming. Like right now,
I'm discussing whether or not "replies go to author" are a good idea.
And look, unless someone is taking a poll, why should I send this to
someone not interested in it at all? Now quadruple the scenario. If I
wanted all to know what I'm saying to you now because I personally felt
it would benefit the list, then I would simply reply and change the
email addy.
Also, folks are replying under other subject headings. Quite a bit of
"back and forth" went on under the
"math experience" maybe up to 30 emails! I went though a lot! No one
bothered to change the heading to whatever they were discussing. To tell
you the truth, I had so many emails I don't know if I ever got down to
the original "math experience" post or not. :o|
Quite a few of the posts are "okay" type things too, or a suggestion to
one particular person that would effect the rest of the list.
Can't the "replies to author" be tried out for a few days to see if it
would work? Otherwise, I'm going to the smaller list that's less
aggressive.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Valerie Cifuentes
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
I CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT FORWARDS, CHAIN LETTERS AND PETITIONS. THEY ARE
FILLING UP MY BOX AND TAKING UP MY TIME. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING!
http://nolen.home.texas.net/valerie/Cifuentes.html
I'm A Navy Brat & Wife of HM2 Cifuentes; Active Duty Navy, & Mother of
Three Young Navy Brats!
*~*PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE AS I CHECK EMAIL ONCE IN THE MORNING & EVENING
AFTER 3:00PM AND NOT ON SUNDAY (THE LORD'S DAY.)*~*
-----Original Message-----
From: Camille Bauer [mailto:goddessofwisdom2@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:11 PM
To: Unschooling_dotcom
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] EMAIL SUGGESTION: ATTN MODERATOR
Valerie suggests
<<With 690 people on here, it might be a good idea to do "replies go to
the author.">>
Please dont! No one else would see the responses. What is the point
then?
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
schuyler_waynforth
Why don't you just read it on-line. Go to
groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling_dotcom and click on edit my
membership. Change your membership so you don't get e-mails and you
can browse on-line at your leisure. You have to sign in and there
are advertisements, but you don't get a bunch of email to deal with
and you can follow whatever thread you want to follow.
It's what I do with all of the lists I belong to.
Schuyler
groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling_dotcom and click on edit my
membership. Change your membership so you don't get e-mails and you
can browse on-line at your leisure. You have to sign in and there
are advertisements, but you don't get a bunch of email to deal with
and you can follow whatever thread you want to follow.
It's what I do with all of the lists I belong to.
Schuyler
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Gabrielle Ward" <wardox@t...> wrote:
> Hi. My name is Gabrielle.
>
> I've been lurking for a week and I don't have time to read all the
emails either, as I am home/unschooling my 3, and I'd rather spend
most of my time with them.
>
> I agree with Valerie, in her idea. It works VERY well at the
indigo adults group.
>
> IE. If it's for the group, just change the 'to' line.
>
> Very easy!!!
>
> Gabrielle in Australia
]
Fetteroll
on 4/23/02 8:47 PM, Gabrielle Ward at wardox@... wrote:
where there isn't much to learn from answers to other people's questions.
(I'm not sure I can imagine a scenario the second fits but I guess it isn't
impossible.)
But if I try to imagine learning what I have about unschooling reading a
list without the freewheeling questions and answers and discussions I've
experienced on lists and message boards over the past 7 years, I think I'd
be doing eclectic! That's at least easy to understand without a major
paradigm shift.
I hope people remembering to change subjects will help. I hope the mail
clogging bickering can end. But other than what I suggested to Valerie, and
suggesting a list with fewer people, perhaps *don't* try to keep up. Just
let whatever you can wash over you. We're awash in information in this
society anyway so learning how to let a lot of it slide could be a useful
skill.
Joyce
> I've been lurking for a week and I don't have time to read all the emailsI can see how this would work for a topic with rather specific answers, or
> either, as I am home/unschooling my 3, and I'd rather spend most of my time
> with them.
>
> I agree with Valerie, in her idea. It works VERY well at the indigo adults
> group.
where there isn't much to learn from answers to other people's questions.
(I'm not sure I can imagine a scenario the second fits but I guess it isn't
impossible.)
But if I try to imagine learning what I have about unschooling reading a
list without the freewheeling questions and answers and discussions I've
experienced on lists and message boards over the past 7 years, I think I'd
be doing eclectic! That's at least easy to understand without a major
paradigm shift.
I hope people remembering to change subjects will help. I hope the mail
clogging bickering can end. But other than what I suggested to Valerie, and
suggesting a list with fewer people, perhaps *don't* try to keep up. Just
let whatever you can wash over you. We're awash in information in this
society anyway so learning how to let a lot of it slide could be a useful
skill.
Joyce
Valerie Cifuentes
>>>>>But if I try to imagine learning what I have about unschoolingreading a
list without the freewheeling questions and answers and discussions I've
experienced on lists and message boards over the past 7 years, I think
I'd
be doing eclectic! That's at least easy to understand without a major
paradigm shift.<<<<
Thank you for your feedback and serious consideration of my dilemma.
The thing is: there is also "information overload." I can easily throw a
question out there.
Also, doing the "replies to author" doesn't completely annul any online
conversations, it only limits the "yeah okay" and "I simply agree" type
thing that can fill up a box quickly.
Suppose I post, and I get 4 people from that one post that is interested
in what I've said.
Then there are 5 posts automatically from that one post (including
mine.) That's only ONE topic.
I don't feel I'm getting the big picture on this list because too many
things are jumping out at me at one time, like the "yeah okay" stuff
that could have been sent to the author of the original posts.
I believe that the bantering back and forth would come to a halt almost
completely. Someone who is intolerant to another is less likely to
attack a through a personal email and that "he said, she said" and
sticking up for one another ends too because there isn't an audience to
it.
If I go and set myself with the message board, then I'm not able to
interact as freely and because many of the posts aren't up to date on
the subject line I would end up clicking them to see if they are
accurately posted. If I go to digest I'd be sitting here having to
filter through the back and forth anyway.
I just think it's worth a try to do the "replies go to the author" for a
day or two and see how it works.
I was curious as to how many did digest on this list and went to the
webpage. I found that about 166 of the 690 are "bouncing" members. I'm
not able to get the digest info.
I'm on a list that has over 450 members that use "replies go to author"
and it runs smoothly and there is plenty of discussion, and it's not
overwhelming. It remains interesting without redundancy.
Those who are seasoned in USing can simply send emails in that they
think will help others.
Sorry to be long winded, I really want to stay here.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Valerie Cifuentes
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
I CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT FORWARDS, CHAIN LETTERS AND PETITIONS. THEY ARE
FILLING UP MY BOX AND TAKING UP MY TIME. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING!
http://nolen.home.texas.net/valerie/Cifuentes.html
I'm A Navy Brat & Wife of HM2 Cifuentes; Active Duty Navy, & Mother of
Three Young Navy Brats!
*~*PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE AS I CHECK EMAIL ONCE IN THE MORNING & EVENING
AFTER 3:00PM AND NOT ON SUNDAY (THE LORD'S DAY.)*~*
-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] EMAIL SUGGESTION: ATTN MODERATOR
on 4/23/02 8:47 PM, Gabrielle Ward at wardox@... wrote:
> I've been lurking for a week and I don't have time to read all theemails
> either, as I am home/unschooling my 3, and I'd rather spend most of mytime
> with them.adults
>
> I agree with Valerie, in her idea. It works VERY well at the indigo
> group.I can see how this would work for a topic with rather specific answers,
or
where there isn't much to learn from answers to other people's
questions.
(I'm not sure I can imagine a scenario the second fits but I guess it
isn't
impossible.)
But if I try to imagine learning what I have about unschooling reading a
list without the freewheeling questions and answers and discussions I've
experienced on lists and message boards over the past 7 years, I think
I'd
be doing eclectic! That's at least easy to understand without a major
paradigm shift.
I hope people remembering to change subjects will help. I hope the mail
clogging bickering can end. But other than what I suggested to Valerie,
and
suggesting a list with fewer people, perhaps *don't* try to keep up.
Just
let whatever you can wash over you. We're awash in information in this
society anyway so learning how to let a lot of it slide could be a
useful
skill.
Joyce
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Valerie Cifuentes
> I'm trying to filterHow about asking some questions. :-)
> though to find the good stuff to help me with my unschooling decision,
Well, I really don't have but one at this moment and it is, Do any of
you teach your Teen children algebra?
I mean in the form of "solving for variables" or the like. The reason
I'm asking is; I did a PayPal transaction and a percentage was taken out
because I received a refund and the other person used a credit card.
PayPal charged a fee for this transaction.
My Teen had been doing Saxon math. She learned some of the formulas for
algebra. She figured out how much the percentage was by rewording the
problem and finding the right formula. I taught her this with Saxon,
meaning, she didn't come up with wanting to learn this herself. She
really didn't want to know much about math at all. But I insisted that
she at least "try" and to not allow the math to intimidate her. I talked
her into doing it by calling the math "puzzles to solve." It lightened
the mood considerably. She wasn't gun-ho, but she did it. I think to
please me. (This is BEFORE I looked into USing.) Anyway, she was so
happy when she solved the PayPal problem and was able to find that they
took 6.5% Now she has a skill to use. Same with learning parameters, she
can figure on her own how much carpet in her bedroom she wants right
away. I think that she learned that maybe I do have some educational
things to impart to her because I know she is ready for them and she
will be alert as when to use the new techniques as situations arise.
Rather than me just waiting to ask the magic question, "Mom, may I learn
such and such?" Can she possibly know what she really wants? What I mean
is do USer's just strike the match for the child and see if it burns and
if not, then stop or do you wait for your child to ask for the match? Is
not considered USing if I introduce things for them to do, like math,
and maybe nudge them to see if they are ready. That's what I do anyway.
My middle daughter loves to use her Saxon math book.
She enjoys it so much, (she's an sequential type), it would break her
heart if I took it away and hurt her feelings that I don't consider it
valuable anymore. Does that make sense?
What are your goals for your kids?
I would like for them to have "original thought." I want them to be
creative and individuals who are not afraid to go against the grain if
that's what it takes to do right. I want them to find what they would
love to do for a living and do it. My worst thought is that they would
be stuck into a job they hated and would live a stoic existence.
What do you fear most as far as homeschooling your kids is concerned?
That one day the government with produce laws forbidding homeschooling.
I have no fear of homeschooling otherwise.
Do you want unschooling in a nutshell? Just ask and people will try to
define the undefinable in a few sentences. You won't "get" unschooling
from
them but it might be enough to give you a better idea.
I get the idea what it is, sometimes it seems like "more work" for those
that aren't ultra creative.
I'm a reader by heart and I listen to a lot of music. I'm about to do
some gardening. I'm not super artsy though I encourage my kids to do
art. My son has a volcano lab that we are going to get into tomorrow.
I talk to my children about current events etc. We spend a lot of time
on the beach too.
But when it comes to math and grammar. I don't know, I think that it's
important to be direct about those things. I don't mean "stuffing it"
but just exposing them to it.
We are making a homophone chart. I just handed them a Scholastic book
(similar to a short dictionary) and I asked them to look up three words,
even it they didn't know what they meant, but liked the way that they
sounded. We made up fun sentences verbally with them. I am particular
about handwriting. I think that children should have good handwriting
skills, (when they are completely ready). My children all have beautiful
handwriting because of a program I've taught them. They love to make
beautiful letters. So they do that with the homophone chart. It's fun
and it's like a game. Even my Teen enjoys it!
But some here may not think that this is USing?
I didn't post the entire message due to time constraints. But thank you
for letting me share! :O)
I'm long winded, sorry. too much to think about in one day!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I *don't* want it changed. I'm on a list where the replies go to the
>
>I hope people remembering to change subjects will help. I hope the mail
>clogging bickering can end. But other than what I suggested to Valerie, and
>suggesting a list with fewer people, perhaps *don't* try to keep up. Just
>let whatever you can wash over you. We're awash in information in this
>society anyway so learning how to let a lot of it slide could be a useful
>skill.
author by default, and I'm always forgetting and sending replies to one
person.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/02 8:54:06 PM, homeschool@... writes:
<< What I mean
is do USer's just strike the match for the child and see if it burns and
if not, then stop or do you wait for your child to ask for the match? >>
We keep fires burning all the time.
<< What I mean
is do USer's just strike the match for the child and see if it burns and
if not, then stop or do you wait for your child to ask for the match? >>
We keep fires burning all the time.
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2002 5:48:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
wardox@... writes:
people have to stop and think about whether the post ought to go to the whole
list or whether it is really intended for one person. The BAD thing about it
is that lots and lots of people answer questions offlist and the rest of us
don't get the benefit of hearing those answers.
I don't really think it would help us, here, because I think the posts that
are causing the problems would get sent to the whole list anyway.
Otherwise, all posts are really intended for the whole list.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wardox@... writes:
> I agree with Valerie, in her idea. It works VERY well at the indigo adultsI'm on another list that does this too. The GOOD thing about it is that
> group.
>
> IE. If it's for the group, just change the 'to' line.
people have to stop and think about whether the post ought to go to the whole
list or whether it is really intended for one person. The BAD thing about it
is that lots and lots of people answer questions offlist and the rest of us
don't get the benefit of hearing those answers.
I don't really think it would help us, here, because I think the posts that
are causing the problems would get sent to the whole list anyway.
Otherwise, all posts are really intended for the whole list.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 4/23/02 10:47 PM, Valerie Cifuentes at homeschool@... wrote:
by living life freely and joyfully in an environment that's rich enough for
them to both explore their interests and stumble across new interests.
People actually do use algebra in their daily lives. Algebra is just finding
out what you don't know from what you do. When kids are exposed to math by
using it in the real world they develop an understanding of how numbers work
that most kids who learn math formally usually don't get.
It's the difference between learning Spanish formally in a classroom and
learning it by going to Spain and having to use it to get what you need.
Someone in a classroom may appear to know more because they are learning
what they'll be tested on. Someone learning through immersion is learning
how to *use* the language, they're using great big huge concepts without
totally understanding them and getting feedback on how well they're using
them.
they're happy we did it, it does reinforce the fear that they would never
have learned that on their own and what other things aren't they learning
that we should be teaching?
It helps a great deal to become conscious of what they are learning
*without* being taught. That's the huge part of the puzzle that's missing.
We really only see what we've taught them and we don't see the far greater
number of things they've learned on their own. And we tend not to value
those things too, because if they learned them without being taught then it
seems they weren't all that difficult to begin with.
In an unschooling way the PayPal problem might have been presented as a
problem that you wanted a sounding board for. You could have explained the
problem and walked through it. She might have asked questions to help
you/her understand what was going on.
She might not have the same understanding after watching you but she would
have a foundation of understanding to build on so the next time percentages
came up she'd have something to relate them to, another part to add to the
piece of the puzzle that was already in place.
If she had opportunities like the PayPal with her own money, she might have
brought the problem to you and you could have puzzled it out together.
The things we learn on our own because we need the information or skill is
where the profound learning happens. Unfortunately it's quiet so we parents
don't get as much feedback from it as we do when we teach.
around from thinking in terms of subjects to thinking in terms of exploring
interests. The "subjects" should be the *tools* we reach for to make sense
of what we do, not the goal themselves. History is meaningless unless we
have the questions we want answered that history can provide. (Like being
interested in the Little House series and being curious about why Laura's
life was as it was.)
The point in life is the bird house, not the hammer. As a side-effect of
building a bird house we learn how to use a hammer. The hammer is
meaningless without the uses it gets put to. And learning how to use a
hammer is even more useless if it's learned for the sake of learning how to
hammer "just in case". Learning that way in fact limits someone's concept of
a hammer because it then becomes a tool for pounding nails. It won't be a
tool for cracking nuts or a paperweight or to whack a wrench to loosen a
bolt or a prop to test center of balance.
That's inadequate but, like a problem in percentages you've walked through
for your daughter out loud, it is a foundation, a beginning.
he's trying to do. He needs to have what he might need in reach and
accessible.
When your kids were learning to speak, did you speak to them as an adult,
concerned that they had to learn words like corporate takeover, radio
astronomy, medulla oblongata, cartesian coordinates or they'd never make it
in the world? Or did you talk about the things they were interested in,
naturally immersing those words and subjects in the proper context of
language even if they didn't totally grasp every word you were saying and
yet naturally at a level that wouldn't confound them totally?
So an unschooler doesn't think in terms of *leading* a child to what he
needs to know so much as making the opportunities to need those things
available. That can sound like an impossible task! How can we possibly
surround them with everything that's in a 9th grade science book? Well you
can and you can't ;-) That science book is just a distillation, just a tiny
portion of what is in your child's life right now. The chapter on astronomy
may go in and trickle out unless the child has looked up with a wondering
parent and looked for constellations or given the time to notice stars come
in different colors or asked about the first "star" that appears at sunset
or tried to find the various faces in the moon that other cultures have
found. It really doesn't need to go further than that (though, of course,
some kids may). It will create a sense of wonder and curiosity and good
feelings about the night sky that will be a foundation for learning more. A
textbook chapter the child has no interest in initially might spark an
interest that would have been sparked by the night sky but it's as likely to
leave another child with no desire to learn more.
What you supply them with isn't the information, but the sense of wonder --
you'll need to recapture this too :-) -- and the resources to explore
wherever their interests lead them. It doesn't mean you need every
educational product on the market. It can be just a mom who can say "Let's
go look it up with Google." :-)
sometimes it helps to come ask for some perspective when they've been
playing a computer game for 3 weeks straight ;-)
There's nothing wrong with textbooks if that's what the child likes. I think
it can be comforting for adults if kids like textbooks and workbooks and we
can feel satisified they're "doing math" but that comfort can make us stop
there. We will be less likely to feel the need to supply the real world
contexts we would for a non-textbook child that will make math meaningful:
allowance, games, Nintendo, cooking, counting and sorting, and so on and so
forth.
So in a way, yes, you should see it as less valuable because Saxon shouldn't
be the center of math but just one small aspect of math. (Saxon seems to
work best at teaching kids how to take math tests.) But you should also see
it as valuable because it is valuable to your daughter.
The really tricky part is to learn to see things that same way when they
value learning all 251+ Pokemon names! ;-)
When you think of the people who are "original thinkers" do you imagine them
as having been fed what they need to know by well meaning experts who know
what they needed to know or having reached out for what they needed to know?
When you picture people who are happy in their jobs, are those jobs
exclusively jobs available to college graduates? Did those jobs come from
what they were given, or from what they sought out for themselves?
and wonder. Creativity implies that you need to make the world entertaining
so the kids want to know what you're sure they need to. No, all that's
necessary is being curious about life yourself. Share how happy you are over
something you've found or done. (Imagine how pleased you are when your child
does this around you.) Stop and smell the roses. And wonder how the grapes
got all the way from Chili and what other movie did that actor play in and
what happens when you type two random words into Google and are there any
clues in the personal ads that tell you what kind of people they are and so
on.
Do you share favorite passages or tell them of your favorite books? (That's
not one of my skills so it't just an idea for those who might find it
natural.)
Do you talk about why you like certain songs? Do you listen to music beyond
your "comfort zone" or explore some world music?
Have you planted things in the garden that kids might enjoy? (Their
appreciation isn't a necessary part of the deal. Wanting to create an
environment that provides them with things to stumble across is though.)
Have you asked them if they'd like you to plant something for them? Or given
them a section of the yard that belongs to them to do with as they please?
(Plant flowers, vegetables, turn it into a mud pit ;-)
Do they collect things at the beach? Do you look them up and observe them?
Be curious yourself :-) It's not necessary for the kids to pursue it if they
aren't interested, but it is important that they see you being curious.
(Don't force yourself. Just find natural opportunities to be curious. You
might need to give yourself a little shove if you haven't learned something
just for the sake of curiosity in a while! But it can be infectious :-) To
you and the kids.)
that goes with it, but they do know it. (Mad Libs are good. Ruth Heller's
books are goregous.)
Perhaps the greatest "teacher" is needing to write for a personally
meaningful reason. Email, IMs, letters, poems, stories, comic books, game
walkthroughs, webpages. The *need* has to come from them. But you need to
make sure the opportunities are there and available.
if they are having fun at it. *Anything* they enjoy they will learn
something from. Just ask yourself why you feel they need to know homophones.
What use are they? They are like surprises hidden in English and there's a
great deal of learning that can happen around stumbling on such things --
like *why* do two totally differently spelled words sound alike and *why* do
two words spelled alike have different pronounciations -- or bringing them
up like a puzzle to ponder over. But the only "need" of them in kids
learning is when teachers are teaching reading and spelling and making sure
the kids don't mix up the spellings of two, to and too so the teacher can
check off that they "learned" those to provide feedback to parents,
administrators and the state.
Kids *can* learn to read and spell without ever dealing with homophones
formally. They'll just absorb them. Just as they accept without even
thinking about it that spoken English is a great deal different in formality
of structure than written English. But it's fun to point them out and talk
about them when they or you stumble on them :-) Or even if you think, "Gee,
they might be interested in this because it's interesting so I'll get this
book and run it by whoever is interested." (Which is a rather poor excuse
for a sentence in a discussion of grammar learned through writing ;-)
yourself why. Usually when we ask ourselves why and we get irritated that
someone's asking it's because the answer is "just because it's important"
but we can't really pinpoint why.
And that's another one of the hard parts about unschooling. It's digging
deep and figuring out why it is we think such and such is important. And
there are often so *many* things that are important "just because"! In a way
it's easier just to do the things we think are important even if the doing
might be rough (in terms of kid resistance) or need creativity (to make it
fun so the kids don't resist so much). It's tough to let go of that little
piece of the world we thought we had control over. (But there *are* rewards
in terms of kids learning and being and becoming who they are.)
Doctors have horrible handwriting.
Calligraphers need very nice writing. But do calligraphers come from having
been made to practice until their handwriting was nice or is the nice
handwriting an indication that someone might enjoy a book on calligraphy?
What are the consequences of having bad handwriting? How about not being
able to fill out a job application so someone else can read it? But if it's
a job the person wants, isn't that a huge motivator to learn? Do we really
think that our kids would not self-improve for something they want? Haven't
they *always* done that? The only difference is we have a mental block about
self-improving over something "academic". And probably the reason is because
academics gets force fed through dull lectures and hours of dull practice so
the various subjects -- and often learning itself --- becomes a huge
mountain to climb.
But an unschooled child doesn't have the weight of those years of dull
practice tied to his concept of learning. Improving handwriting is like
improving skateboarding -- except easier on the knees and elbows ;-) All it
takes is some greater attentiveness, perhaps asking some questions on letter
formation, perhaps going through a book. Anything learned for personally
meaningful reasons is learned almost effortlessly, because the effort has
meaning and can often be fun.
Yes, all of this digging deep and asking ourselves to reexamine what we
think is important and why we think it's important takes a lot of time and
work! :-) But to those who are trying to achieve the goals that unschooling
is best suited for it's more than worth it.
great :-) Scatter some calligraphy books around the house. Point out
interesting handwriting. Read about the development of writing. (*If* they
want to.) Try out some Chinese brushes and some Chinese calligraphy. Look at
the Book of Kells and other illuminated manuscripts. (If they want to. Or do
it for yourself.)
But your pride in their having accomplished what you hoped they would will
get in the way of "getting" unschooling. Unschooling won't be about you and
what you can do but about them and what they can and want to do for
themselves. Again, that's not meant as a criticism. Only as an indicator of
where you are from where an unschooler is. And it only needs to concern you
as important if you want to get from where you are to where the unschooler
is. If you're happy where you are and your kids are leading joyfilled lives
then forcing yourself to do something different may be more trouble than
it's worth. But if there are parts that aren't working, then it's worth
sitting back and wondering why and how it could be different.
Unschooling could end up looking almost exactly like what you're doing,
offering fun activities. The only difference is in the expectation that they
must learn such and such. If they can say "No, thanks, I'd rather go play
Nintendo," and you can carry on with the kids who are interested or just on
your own then it's probably unschooling. :-)
Joyce
> Do any ofThe unschooling philosophy is that people will learn what they need to learn
> you teach your Teen children algebra?
by living life freely and joyfully in an environment that's rich enough for
them to both explore their interests and stumble across new interests.
People actually do use algebra in their daily lives. Algebra is just finding
out what you don't know from what you do. When kids are exposed to math by
using it in the real world they develop an understanding of how numbers work
that most kids who learn math formally usually don't get.
It's the difference between learning Spanish formally in a classroom and
learning it by going to Spain and having to use it to get what you need.
Someone in a classroom may appear to know more because they are learning
what they'll be tested on. Someone learning through immersion is learning
how to *use* the language, they're using great big huge concepts without
totally understanding them and getting feedback on how well they're using
them.
> I taught her this with Saxon,When we teach them something that we are certain they will need to know and
> meaning, she didn't come up with wanting to learn this herself.
they're happy we did it, it does reinforce the fear that they would never
have learned that on their own and what other things aren't they learning
that we should be teaching?
It helps a great deal to become conscious of what they are learning
*without* being taught. That's the huge part of the puzzle that's missing.
We really only see what we've taught them and we don't see the far greater
number of things they've learned on their own. And we tend not to value
those things too, because if they learned them without being taught then it
seems they weren't all that difficult to begin with.
> I talked*Eeverything* in life can be approached as a puzzle to solve.
> her into doing it by calling the math "puzzles to solve."
In an unschooling way the PayPal problem might have been presented as a
problem that you wanted a sounding board for. You could have explained the
problem and walked through it. She might have asked questions to help
you/her understand what was going on.
She might not have the same understanding after watching you but she would
have a foundation of understanding to build on so the next time percentages
came up she'd have something to relate them to, another part to add to the
piece of the puzzle that was already in place.
If she had opportunities like the PayPal with her own money, she might have
brought the problem to you and you could have puzzled it out together.
The things we learn on our own because we need the information or skill is
where the profound learning happens. Unfortunately it's quiet so we parents
don't get as much feedback from it as we do when we teach.
> Rather than me just waiting to ask the magic question, "Mom, may I learnOne of the hard parts of unschooling, I think, is in turning our thinking
> such and such?" Can she possibly know what she really wants? What I mean
> is do USer's just strike the match for the child and see if it burns and
> if not, then stop or do you wait for your child to ask for the match?
around from thinking in terms of subjects to thinking in terms of exploring
interests. The "subjects" should be the *tools* we reach for to make sense
of what we do, not the goal themselves. History is meaningless unless we
have the questions we want answered that history can provide. (Like being
interested in the Little House series and being curious about why Laura's
life was as it was.)
The point in life is the bird house, not the hammer. As a side-effect of
building a bird house we learn how to use a hammer. The hammer is
meaningless without the uses it gets put to. And learning how to use a
hammer is even more useless if it's learned for the sake of learning how to
hammer "just in case". Learning that way in fact limits someone's concept of
a hammer because it then becomes a tool for pounding nails. It won't be a
tool for cracking nuts or a paperweight or to whack a wrench to loosen a
bolt or a prop to test center of balance.
That's inadequate but, like a problem in percentages you've walked through
for your daughter out loud, it is a foundation, a beginning.
> IsUnschooling is providing what the child needs today in order to achieve what
> not considered USing if I introduce things for them to do, like math,
> and maybe nudge them to see if they are ready.
he's trying to do. He needs to have what he might need in reach and
accessible.
When your kids were learning to speak, did you speak to them as an adult,
concerned that they had to learn words like corporate takeover, radio
astronomy, medulla oblongata, cartesian coordinates or they'd never make it
in the world? Or did you talk about the things they were interested in,
naturally immersing those words and subjects in the proper context of
language even if they didn't totally grasp every word you were saying and
yet naturally at a level that wouldn't confound them totally?
So an unschooler doesn't think in terms of *leading* a child to what he
needs to know so much as making the opportunities to need those things
available. That can sound like an impossible task! How can we possibly
surround them with everything that's in a 9th grade science book? Well you
can and you can't ;-) That science book is just a distillation, just a tiny
portion of what is in your child's life right now. The chapter on astronomy
may go in and trickle out unless the child has looked up with a wondering
parent and looked for constellations or given the time to notice stars come
in different colors or asked about the first "star" that appears at sunset
or tried to find the various faces in the moon that other cultures have
found. It really doesn't need to go further than that (though, of course,
some kids may). It will create a sense of wonder and curiosity and good
feelings about the night sky that will be a foundation for learning more. A
textbook chapter the child has no interest in initially might spark an
interest that would have been sparked by the night sky but it's as likely to
leave another child with no desire to learn more.
What you supply them with isn't the information, but the sense of wonder --
you'll need to recapture this too :-) -- and the resources to explore
wherever their interests lead them. It doesn't mean you need every
educational product on the market. It can be just a mom who can say "Let's
go look it up with Google." :-)
> My middle daughter loves to use her Saxon math book.There's nothing valueless in anything a child is interested in. (Though
> She enjoys it so much, (she's an sequential type), it would break her
> heart if I took it away and hurt her feelings that I don't consider it
> valuable anymore. Does that make sense?
sometimes it helps to come ask for some perspective when they've been
playing a computer game for 3 weeks straight ;-)
There's nothing wrong with textbooks if that's what the child likes. I think
it can be comforting for adults if kids like textbooks and workbooks and we
can feel satisified they're "doing math" but that comfort can make us stop
there. We will be less likely to feel the need to supply the real world
contexts we would for a non-textbook child that will make math meaningful:
allowance, games, Nintendo, cooking, counting and sorting, and so on and so
forth.
So in a way, yes, you should see it as less valuable because Saxon shouldn't
be the center of math but just one small aspect of math. (Saxon seems to
work best at teaching kids how to take math tests.) But you should also see
it as valuable because it is valuable to your daughter.
The really tricky part is to learn to see things that same way when they
value learning all 251+ Pokemon names! ;-)
> I would like for them to have "original thought." I want them to beAnd those are pretty much exactly what unschoolers goals are :-)
> creative and individuals who are not afraid to go against the grain if
> that's what it takes to do right. I want them to find what they would
> love to do for a living and do it. My worst thought is that they would
> be stuck into a job they hated and would live a stoic existence.
When you think of the people who are "original thinkers" do you imagine them
as having been fed what they need to know by well meaning experts who know
what they needed to know or having reached out for what they needed to know?
When you picture people who are happy in their jobs, are those jobs
exclusively jobs available to college graduates? Did those jobs come from
what they were given, or from what they sought out for themselves?
> I get the idea what it is, sometimes it seems like "more work" for thoseNo, creativity has less to do with it than cultivating a sense of curiosity
> that aren't ultra creative.
and wonder. Creativity implies that you need to make the world entertaining
so the kids want to know what you're sure they need to. No, all that's
necessary is being curious about life yourself. Share how happy you are over
something you've found or done. (Imagine how pleased you are when your child
does this around you.) Stop and smell the roses. And wonder how the grapes
got all the way from Chili and what other movie did that actor play in and
what happens when you type two random words into Google and are there any
clues in the personal ads that tell you what kind of people they are and so
on.
> I'm a reader by heart and I listen to a lot of music. I'm about to doThat sounds great :-)
> some gardening. I'm not super artsy though I encourage my kids to do
> art. My son has a volcano lab that we are going to get into tomorrow.
> I talk to my children about current events etc. We spend a lot of time
> on the beach too.
Do you share favorite passages or tell them of your favorite books? (That's
not one of my skills so it't just an idea for those who might find it
natural.)
Do you talk about why you like certain songs? Do you listen to music beyond
your "comfort zone" or explore some world music?
Have you planted things in the garden that kids might enjoy? (Their
appreciation isn't a necessary part of the deal. Wanting to create an
environment that provides them with things to stumble across is though.)
Have you asked them if they'd like you to plant something for them? Or given
them a section of the yard that belongs to them to do with as they please?
(Plant flowers, vegetables, turn it into a mud pit ;-)
Do they collect things at the beach? Do you look them up and observe them?
Be curious yourself :-) It's not necessary for the kids to pursue it if they
aren't interested, but it is important that they see you being curious.
(Don't force yourself. Just find natural opportunities to be curious. You
might need to give yourself a little shove if you haven't learned something
just for the sake of curiosity in a while! But it can be infectious :-) To
you and the kids.)
> But when it comes to math and grammar. I don't know, I think that it'sI can guarantee they know grammar. They may not have the formal language
> important to be direct about those things. I don't mean "stuffing it"
> but just exposing them to it.
that goes with it, but they do know it. (Mad Libs are good. Ruth Heller's
books are goregous.)
Perhaps the greatest "teacher" is needing to write for a personally
meaningful reason. Email, IMs, letters, poems, stories, comic books, game
walkthroughs, webpages. The *need* has to come from them. But you need to
make sure the opportunities are there and available.
> We are making a homophone chart. I just handed them a Scholastic bookThat sounds like it could be fun. :-) And this isn't meant to discourage you
> (similar to a short dictionary) and I asked them to look up three words,
> even it they didn't know what they meant, but liked the way that they
> sounded. We made up fun sentences verbally with them.
if they are having fun at it. *Anything* they enjoy they will learn
something from. Just ask yourself why you feel they need to know homophones.
What use are they? They are like surprises hidden in English and there's a
great deal of learning that can happen around stumbling on such things --
like *why* do two totally differently spelled words sound alike and *why* do
two words spelled alike have different pronounciations -- or bringing them
up like a puzzle to ponder over. But the only "need" of them in kids
learning is when teachers are teaching reading and spelling and making sure
the kids don't mix up the spellings of two, to and too so the teacher can
check off that they "learned" those to provide feedback to parents,
administrators and the state.
Kids *can* learn to read and spell without ever dealing with homophones
formally. They'll just absorb them. Just as they accept without even
thinking about it that spoken English is a great deal different in formality
of structure than written English. But it's fun to point them out and talk
about them when they or you stumble on them :-) Or even if you think, "Gee,
they might be interested in this because it's interesting so I'll get this
book and run it by whoever is interested." (Which is a rather poor excuse
for a sentence in a discussion of grammar learned through writing ;-)
> I am particularWhy? I don't mean that question in an attacking way. I mean, stop and ask
> about handwriting. I think that children should have good handwriting
> skills, (when they are completely ready).
yourself why. Usually when we ask ourselves why and we get irritated that
someone's asking it's because the answer is "just because it's important"
but we can't really pinpoint why.
And that's another one of the hard parts about unschooling. It's digging
deep and figuring out why it is we think such and such is important. And
there are often so *many* things that are important "just because"! In a way
it's easier just to do the things we think are important even if the doing
might be rough (in terms of kid resistance) or need creativity (to make it
fun so the kids don't resist so much). It's tough to let go of that little
piece of the world we thought we had control over. (But there *are* rewards
in terms of kids learning and being and becoming who they are.)
Doctors have horrible handwriting.
Calligraphers need very nice writing. But do calligraphers come from having
been made to practice until their handwriting was nice or is the nice
handwriting an indication that someone might enjoy a book on calligraphy?
What are the consequences of having bad handwriting? How about not being
able to fill out a job application so someone else can read it? But if it's
a job the person wants, isn't that a huge motivator to learn? Do we really
think that our kids would not self-improve for something they want? Haven't
they *always* done that? The only difference is we have a mental block about
self-improving over something "academic". And probably the reason is because
academics gets force fed through dull lectures and hours of dull practice so
the various subjects -- and often learning itself --- becomes a huge
mountain to climb.
But an unschooled child doesn't have the weight of those years of dull
practice tied to his concept of learning. Improving handwriting is like
improving skateboarding -- except easier on the knees and elbows ;-) All it
takes is some greater attentiveness, perhaps asking some questions on letter
formation, perhaps going through a book. Anything learned for personally
meaningful reasons is learned almost effortlessly, because the effort has
meaning and can often be fun.
Yes, all of this digging deep and asking ourselves to reexamine what we
think is important and why we think it's important takes a lot of time and
work! :-) But to those who are trying to achieve the goals that unschooling
is best suited for it's more than worth it.
> My children all have beautifulIf they love to make beautiful letters great :-) If it's fun and a game
> handwriting because of a program I've taught them. They love to make
> beautiful letters. So they do that with the homophone chart. It's fun
> and it's like a game. Even my Teen enjoys it!
> But some here may not think that this is USing?
great :-) Scatter some calligraphy books around the house. Point out
interesting handwriting. Read about the development of writing. (*If* they
want to.) Try out some Chinese brushes and some Chinese calligraphy. Look at
the Book of Kells and other illuminated manuscripts. (If they want to. Or do
it for yourself.)
But your pride in their having accomplished what you hoped they would will
get in the way of "getting" unschooling. Unschooling won't be about you and
what you can do but about them and what they can and want to do for
themselves. Again, that's not meant as a criticism. Only as an indicator of
where you are from where an unschooler is. And it only needs to concern you
as important if you want to get from where you are to where the unschooler
is. If you're happy where you are and your kids are leading joyfilled lives
then forcing yourself to do something different may be more trouble than
it's worth. But if there are parts that aren't working, then it's worth
sitting back and wondering why and how it could be different.
Unschooling could end up looking almost exactly like what you're doing,
offering fun activities. The only difference is in the expectation that they
must learn such and such. If they can say "No, thanks, I'd rather go play
Nintendo," and you can carry on with the kids who are interested or just on
your own then it's probably unschooling. :-)
Joyce
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
This is a very good point. I know a lot of the reason this worked for
us so well and we fell into it so naturally before we even knew there
was a name for it, is because my dh and I both have a sense of wonder
about things. We can both find interest and learning in watching a
bug or playing with bubbles or a slew of other things. So the kidlets
kind of picked that up naturally too.
Bridget
>curiosity
> No, creativity has less to do with it than cultivating a sense of
> and wonder. Creativity implies that you need to make the worldentertaining
> so the kids want to know what you're sure they need to. No, allthat's
> necessary is being curious about life yourself.Joyce,
This is a very good point. I know a lot of the reason this worked for
us so well and we fell into it so naturally before we even knew there
was a name for it, is because my dh and I both have a sense of wonder
about things. We can both find interest and learning in watching a
bug or playing with bubbles or a slew of other things. So the kidlets
kind of picked that up naturally too.
Bridget
[email protected]
<<Well, I really don't have but one at this moment and it is, Do any of
you teach your Teen children algebra?>>
I don't "teach" my children anything. I explain, offer, remark upon, show. I
know that it just is s difference of wording but that's important to me.
Once I moved away from school like words it was easier for me to grasp the
core of unschooling. As to Algebra, (or history or health or the other ) I
find that it comes along with life. You saw and your daughter saw algebra in
use with the PayPal questions. What a wonderful time to point out a neat way
that numbers work. I wouldn't have found it helpful to teach her algebra
ahead of time because I have found that when I tried "teaching" my children
were no longer interested. My kids would have said "That's nnice mom", and
walked away. The long, boring repetitive "schoolwork" would have caused the
love of numbers and puzzles to disappear.
<<Anyway, she was so
happy when she solved the PayPal problem and was able to find that they
took 6.5% Now she has a skill to use.>>
I think she may have been able to learn the same skill at the time the
PayPal problem came up. That is how I have found unschooling to work.
Learning the skill as the opportunity arises, rather than "in school because
she may one day need it" (institutional school or home school)
<<Rather than me just waiting to ask the magic question, "Mom, may I learn
such and such?" Can she possibly know what she really wants? >>
Before I "got" unschooling, I thought that I would leave my kids alone, they
would de-school and when they were done, they would come to me and say, "I
wan't to learn about X"
I doesn't work like that! Unschooling children are not typically doing
bookreports, or spontaneously making up science fair projects, or solving
math problems for fun. Some may, but most will be learning about different
things in more subtle ways. Watching TV, movies, reading books and
magazines, playing with dirt and rocks, talking with others, shopping,
onlince surfing, PLAYING. Learning will cease to look like what it does in
school and begin to look more like how adults learn something new.
s
<<not considered USing if I introduce things for them to do, like math,
and maybe nudge them to see if they are ready. >>
TO ME, it is not unschooling to wait for them to learn "Math" It is
unschooling to see them learn about how numbers work together, how to manage
an allowance, how to make the most economical purchase, to see them open
their own bank account, to triple a recipe or to halve one, and to put
together a huge lego structure that is perfectly proportioned (not like
mine)
.
<<My middle daughter loves to use her Saxon math book.
She enjoys it so much, (she's an sequential type), it would break her
heart if I took it away and hurt her feelings that I don't consider it
valuable anymore. Does that make sense?>>
Of course, this is how your DD has learned up until now. It takes time for
them to understand and move away from the beliefs that school and school
methods is how one learns.
<< My worst thought is that they would
be stuck into a job they hated and would live a stoic existence.>>
Slightly off the thread comment on this. Life today has changed from getting
your first job and staying until retirement. Jobs change, careers change,
people change. They never have to be "stuck in a job they hate".
<<I get the idea what it is, sometimes it seems like "more work" for those
that aren't ultra creative.>>
Most unschoolers are not ultra creative and finding new ways to get our
children to learn what we feel is important as they go through thier "School
years".
We are trusting that our children are able to learn things that *they* need
to know, when *they* need to know it. Many of us believe that there is no
"body of knowledge" that must be imparted to our children, they will learn,
just as we do. I strive to show my children that whatever they want to know
about is out there for them to grab onto, when they need it. My goal is not
to give them knowledge, it's to show them how to find that knowledge for
themselves.
.
<<But when it comes to math and grammar. I don't know, I think that it's
important to be direct about those things. I don't mean "stuffing it"
but just exposing them to it. >>
How could anyone NOT be exposed to math or grammar? It's all around us, not
just found in Saxon Algebra 1/2 or Little-Brown's grammar text. It's on the
PayPal site, or Goosebumps books or War& Peace or Stephen King's On Writing
or balancing a checkbook. Like art and gardening and feeding the pets,
learning is EVERYWHERE. It is impossible NOT to do.
<<We are making a homophone chart.>>
What is a homophone?
My children all have beautiful
handwriting because of a program I've taught them.
My oldest has terrible handwriting and he propbably used a program similar
to yours. ;o)
<<They love to make
beautiful letters.>>
Which is probably WHY they have beautiful handwriting.
<<So they do that with the homophone chart. It's fun
and it's like a game. Even my Teen enjoys it!
But some here may not think that this is USing?>>
There may be many who feel that way. But just because someone says "IMO,
that is not really unschooling" doesn't mean you are wrong.
I did some things in school that were fun and like a game. but what other
choice did I have? and it wasn't a game.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
you teach your Teen children algebra?>>
I don't "teach" my children anything. I explain, offer, remark upon, show. I
know that it just is s difference of wording but that's important to me.
Once I moved away from school like words it was easier for me to grasp the
core of unschooling. As to Algebra, (or history or health or the other ) I
find that it comes along with life. You saw and your daughter saw algebra in
use with the PayPal questions. What a wonderful time to point out a neat way
that numbers work. I wouldn't have found it helpful to teach her algebra
ahead of time because I have found that when I tried "teaching" my children
were no longer interested. My kids would have said "That's nnice mom", and
walked away. The long, boring repetitive "schoolwork" would have caused the
love of numbers and puzzles to disappear.
<<Anyway, she was so
happy when she solved the PayPal problem and was able to find that they
took 6.5% Now she has a skill to use.>>
I think she may have been able to learn the same skill at the time the
PayPal problem came up. That is how I have found unschooling to work.
Learning the skill as the opportunity arises, rather than "in school because
she may one day need it" (institutional school or home school)
<<Rather than me just waiting to ask the magic question, "Mom, may I learn
such and such?" Can she possibly know what she really wants? >>
Before I "got" unschooling, I thought that I would leave my kids alone, they
would de-school and when they were done, they would come to me and say, "I
wan't to learn about X"
I doesn't work like that! Unschooling children are not typically doing
bookreports, or spontaneously making up science fair projects, or solving
math problems for fun. Some may, but most will be learning about different
things in more subtle ways. Watching TV, movies, reading books and
magazines, playing with dirt and rocks, talking with others, shopping,
onlince surfing, PLAYING. Learning will cease to look like what it does in
school and begin to look more like how adults learn something new.
s
<<not considered USing if I introduce things for them to do, like math,
and maybe nudge them to see if they are ready. >>
TO ME, it is not unschooling to wait for them to learn "Math" It is
unschooling to see them learn about how numbers work together, how to manage
an allowance, how to make the most economical purchase, to see them open
their own bank account, to triple a recipe or to halve one, and to put
together a huge lego structure that is perfectly proportioned (not like
mine)
.
<<My middle daughter loves to use her Saxon math book.
She enjoys it so much, (she's an sequential type), it would break her
heart if I took it away and hurt her feelings that I don't consider it
valuable anymore. Does that make sense?>>
Of course, this is how your DD has learned up until now. It takes time for
them to understand and move away from the beliefs that school and school
methods is how one learns.
<< My worst thought is that they would
be stuck into a job they hated and would live a stoic existence.>>
Slightly off the thread comment on this. Life today has changed from getting
your first job and staying until retirement. Jobs change, careers change,
people change. They never have to be "stuck in a job they hate".
<<I get the idea what it is, sometimes it seems like "more work" for those
that aren't ultra creative.>>
Most unschoolers are not ultra creative and finding new ways to get our
children to learn what we feel is important as they go through thier "School
years".
We are trusting that our children are able to learn things that *they* need
to know, when *they* need to know it. Many of us believe that there is no
"body of knowledge" that must be imparted to our children, they will learn,
just as we do. I strive to show my children that whatever they want to know
about is out there for them to grab onto, when they need it. My goal is not
to give them knowledge, it's to show them how to find that knowledge for
themselves.
.
<<But when it comes to math and grammar. I don't know, I think that it's
important to be direct about those things. I don't mean "stuffing it"
but just exposing them to it. >>
How could anyone NOT be exposed to math or grammar? It's all around us, not
just found in Saxon Algebra 1/2 or Little-Brown's grammar text. It's on the
PayPal site, or Goosebumps books or War& Peace or Stephen King's On Writing
or balancing a checkbook. Like art and gardening and feeding the pets,
learning is EVERYWHERE. It is impossible NOT to do.
<<We are making a homophone chart.>>
What is a homophone?
My children all have beautiful
handwriting because of a program I've taught them.
My oldest has terrible handwriting and he propbably used a program similar
to yours. ;o)
<<They love to make
beautiful letters.>>
Which is probably WHY they have beautiful handwriting.
<<So they do that with the homophone chart. It's fun
and it's like a game. Even my Teen enjoys it!
But some here may not think that this is USing?>>
There may be many who feel that way. But just because someone says "IMO,
that is not really unschooling" doesn't mean you are wrong.
I did some things in school that were fun and like a game. but what other
choice did I have? and it wasn't a game.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Valerie Cifuentes" <homeschool@c...>
wrote:
a mandatory thing to live in this household. Well, it seems that way
anyway. All three of the kidlets are become champion punsters. And
homophones are just one of the merry ways to create a pun.
Bridget
wrote:
> We are making a homophone chart.My kids are learning all about homophones. Mostly because punning is
a mandatory thing to live in this household. Well, it seems that way
anyway. All three of the kidlets are become champion punsters. And
homophones are just one of the merry ways to create a pun.
Bridget
brr_imcold
>any of
> <<Well, I really don't have but one at this moment and it is, Do
> you teach your Teen children algebra?>>Yes, well... not "teach" (she uses these books on her own.. her own
>
time schedule, nobody is sitting with her telling her stuff) but my
dd is learning Algebra and she LOVES Harold Jacob's Elementary
Algebra. He has also written a Geometry book that she says is just a
wonderful. These books are NOT your typical textbook/Saxon Math
books. He uses real-life examples to get a concept across. Also, no
boring repetative drill pages are in his books.
My dd wants to attend college to pursue a career that will require a
degree so I feel it's imparative she learn these things from a book
(such as this one) rather than leaving it to chance. College is
expensive and to spend the first year catching up on these basic
things when she can learn them outside of that setting is more
economical for us. To say she'll have exposure to these concepts just
by living is risky... so far, she's not run across a lot of these
things in real life yet she'll be expected to know them in a college
classroom.
brr_imcold
>any of
> <<Well, I really don't have but one at this moment and it is, Do
> you teach your Teen children algebra?>>Yes, well... not "teach" (she uses these books on her own.. her own
>
time schedule, nobody is sitting with her telling her stuff) but my
dd is learning Algebra and she LOVES Harold Jacob's Elementary
Algebra. He has also written a Geometry book that she says is just a
wonderful. These books are NOT your typical textbook/Saxon Math
books. He uses real-life examples to get a concept across. Also, no
boring repetative drill pages are in his books.
My dd wants to attend college to pursue a career that will require a
degree so I feel it's imparative she learn these things from a book
(such as this one) rather than leaving it to chance. College is
expensive and to spend the first year catching up on these basic
things when she can learn them outside of that setting is more
economical for us. To say she'll have exposure to these concepts just
by living is risky... so far, she's not run across a lot of these
things in real life yet she'll be expected to know them in a college
classroom.
zenmomma *
>>I am a busy mom and I'm trying to figure out if this list is reallygoing to be overly time consuming or if it's going to weigh my heart
down with bickering back and forth? I'm thinking of leaving.>>
Have you tried visiting the message boards at www.unschooling.com ? It's a
great format to float in and out of. There are no messages in your inbox and
it's easier to follow specific topics without getting everything all at
once.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/24/2002 3:16:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
friend. It started because they wanted to take music, computer, drama, and
art courses at the local community college. They can do that without a high
school diploma (they're doing it now) - but it requires a bit of running
around getting signatures for permission. They can avoid unit limits and
other hassles by having a high school diploma. One easy way to get that, in
California, is to pass the California High School Proficiency Exam (CHSPE).
So - that's what they've decided to do. It also gives them the ability to
work without having to get a work permit - which can ALSO be a hassle since
they are only given out by schools.
Anyway - wanting to take the CHSPE led to them wanting some tutoring in math.
Neither had ever done a single minute of any formal math program - we started
from ground zero with simple arithmetic and moved very quickly through
adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing of whole numbers and then
through fractions and decimals and percentages and exponents and roots. Also
threw in some basic geometry and some consumer math - like figuring out
compound interest. Then they were ready for algebra. They could probably pass
the test without algebra - they don't have to score all that high on the test
to pass it - but they wanted to be really prepared so we looked around at
different algebra materials and picked one out. They have had no trouble
learning it- at a very very fast pace - probably 10 times faster than in a
college classroom situation. We've taken a hiatus for the past couple of
months because their college classes were taking a lot of their time (my
daughter is taking Beginning Voice, JavaScript programming, and History of
Opera). But they did enjoy doing the algebra and plan to get back to it soon.
The thing that interests me is that they pick up the techniques VERY quickly
- they have no math anxiety at all - zero. If they don't understand
something, it doesn't bother them, they just ask questions and try to see it
another way, etc. Very calm, very natural, very happy.
They read the material in the book on their own and work some problems. I sit
with them once or twice a week and mostly chat with them about what they're
working on - they ask me if there is something they don't understand. Often
what they want to talk about is some idea of theirs that goes beyond the
textbook - some idea about how the stuff might be used or something funny
they noticed, etc.
I feel SO validated that not doing any formal math was a good idea.
BUT - remember - we did a LOT of math in our everyday natural lives. I notice
math and like it. We play a LOT of games and we do a lot of "math-talk" in
our regular lives. For example, I remember eating M&Ms in the front seat of
the car one day, with one kid sitting with me, waiting for something. I casua
lly, just out of curiosity, wondered aloud, "Wonder what the probability is
of randomly picking a red M&M out of the bag." My daughter dumped the bag in
her lap and started sorting and counting. We went on from there -- after
figuring out the probability of picking one red M&M, I asked her, jokingly,
"What's the probability of picking either a red or green or brown or ... "--
listing all the colors. It is a probability of 1 or 100 percent which led to
a little discussion about what 100 percent of something means. And so on.
I think that if you're going to unschool math, you owe it to the kids to be
willing to have some mathy types of conversations and to make yourself learn
to enjoy them and get over your own math anxiety IF you have any. Don't blame
yourself - school did it to you.
--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> > Do any ofOn the other hand - I have been teaching Algebra to my 14 yo and her 15 yo
> > you teach your Teen children algebra?
>
> The unschooling philosophy is that people will learn what they need to
> learn
> by living life freely and joyfully in an environment that's rich enough for
> them to both explore their interests and stumble across new interests.
friend. It started because they wanted to take music, computer, drama, and
art courses at the local community college. They can do that without a high
school diploma (they're doing it now) - but it requires a bit of running
around getting signatures for permission. They can avoid unit limits and
other hassles by having a high school diploma. One easy way to get that, in
California, is to pass the California High School Proficiency Exam (CHSPE).
So - that's what they've decided to do. It also gives them the ability to
work without having to get a work permit - which can ALSO be a hassle since
they are only given out by schools.
Anyway - wanting to take the CHSPE led to them wanting some tutoring in math.
Neither had ever done a single minute of any formal math program - we started
from ground zero with simple arithmetic and moved very quickly through
adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing of whole numbers and then
through fractions and decimals and percentages and exponents and roots. Also
threw in some basic geometry and some consumer math - like figuring out
compound interest. Then they were ready for algebra. They could probably pass
the test without algebra - they don't have to score all that high on the test
to pass it - but they wanted to be really prepared so we looked around at
different algebra materials and picked one out. They have had no trouble
learning it- at a very very fast pace - probably 10 times faster than in a
college classroom situation. We've taken a hiatus for the past couple of
months because their college classes were taking a lot of their time (my
daughter is taking Beginning Voice, JavaScript programming, and History of
Opera). But they did enjoy doing the algebra and plan to get back to it soon.
The thing that interests me is that they pick up the techniques VERY quickly
- they have no math anxiety at all - zero. If they don't understand
something, it doesn't bother them, they just ask questions and try to see it
another way, etc. Very calm, very natural, very happy.
They read the material in the book on their own and work some problems. I sit
with them once or twice a week and mostly chat with them about what they're
working on - they ask me if there is something they don't understand. Often
what they want to talk about is some idea of theirs that goes beyond the
textbook - some idea about how the stuff might be used or something funny
they noticed, etc.
I feel SO validated that not doing any formal math was a good idea.
BUT - remember - we did a LOT of math in our everyday natural lives. I notice
math and like it. We play a LOT of games and we do a lot of "math-talk" in
our regular lives. For example, I remember eating M&Ms in the front seat of
the car one day, with one kid sitting with me, waiting for something. I casua
lly, just out of curiosity, wondered aloud, "Wonder what the probability is
of randomly picking a red M&M out of the bag." My daughter dumped the bag in
her lap and started sorting and counting. We went on from there -- after
figuring out the probability of picking one red M&M, I asked her, jokingly,
"What's the probability of picking either a red or green or brown or ... "--
listing all the colors. It is a probability of 1 or 100 percent which led to
a little discussion about what 100 percent of something means. And so on.
I think that if you're going to unschool math, you owe it to the kids to be
willing to have some mathy types of conversations and to make yourself learn
to enjoy them and get over your own math anxiety IF you have any. Don't blame
yourself - school did it to you.
--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/24/2002 6:16:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
BLECHY eggs).
Anyway, it is always enlightening to have unschooling philosophy compressed
into such a descriptive "soundbite."
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> It's the difference between learning Spanish formally in a classroom andI LOVE these nuggets. (Not chicken nuggets, minds you -- chicken make those
> learning it by going to Spain and having to use it to get what you need.
>
BLECHY eggs).
Anyway, it is always enlightening to have unschooling philosophy compressed
into such a descriptive "soundbite."
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Valerie Cifuentes
This sounds ideal to me. :o)
In a message dated 4/24/2002 3:16:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
yo
friend. It started because they wanted to take music, computer, drama,
and
art courses at the local community college. They can do that without a
high
school diploma (they're doing it now) - but it requires a bit of running
around getting signatures for permission. They can avoid unit limits and
other hassles by having a high school diploma. One easy way to get that,
in
California, is to pass the California High School Proficiency Exam
(CHSPE).
So - that's what they've decided to do. It also gives them the ability
to
work without having to get a work permit - which can ALSO be a hassle
since
they are only given out by schools.
Anyway - wanting to take the CHSPE led to them wanting some tutoring in
math.
Neither had ever done a single minute of any formal math program - we
started
from ground zero with simple arithmetic and moved very quickly through
adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing of whole numbers and then
through fractions and decimals and percentages and exponents and roots.
Also
threw in some basic geometry and some consumer math - like figuring out
compound interest. Then they were ready for algebra. They could probably
pass
the test without algebra - they don't have to score all that high on the
test
to pass it - but they wanted to be really prepared so we looked around
at
different algebra materials and picked one out. They have had no trouble
learning it- at a very very fast pace - probably 10 times faster than in
a
college classroom situation. We've taken a hiatus for the past couple of
months because their college classes were taking a lot of their time (my
daughter is taking Beginning Voice, JavaScript programming, and History
of
Opera). But they did enjoy doing the algebra and plan to get back to it
soon.
The thing that interests me is that they pick up the techniques VERY
quickly
- they have no math anxiety at all - zero. If they don't understand
something, it doesn't bother them, they just ask questions and try to
see it
another way, etc. Very calm, very natural, very happy.
They read the material in the book on their own and work some problems.
I sit
with them once or twice a week and mostly chat with them about what
they're
working on - they ask me if there is something they don't understand.
Often
what they want to talk about is some idea of theirs that goes beyond the
textbook - some idea about how the stuff might be used or something
funny
they noticed, etc.
I feel SO validated that not doing any formal math was a good idea.
BUT - remember - we did a LOT of math in our everyday natural lives. I
notice
math and like it. We play a LOT of games and we do a lot of "math-talk"
in
our regular lives. For example, I remember eating M&Ms in the front seat
of
the car one day, with one kid sitting with me, waiting for something. I
casua
lly, just out of curiosity, wondered aloud, "Wonder what the probability
is
of randomly picking a red M&M out of the bag." My daughter dumped the
bag in
her lap and started sorting and counting. We went on from there -- after
figuring out the probability of picking one red M&M, I asked her,
jokingly,
"What's the probability of picking either a red or green or brown or ...
"--
listing all the colors. It is a probability of 1 or 100 percent which
led to
a little discussion about what 100 percent of something means. And so
on.
I think that if you're going to unschool math, you owe it to the kids to
be
willing to have some mathy types of conversations and to make yourself
learn
to enjoy them and get over your own math anxiety IF you have any. Don't
blame
yourself - school did it to you.
--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or
seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what
feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 4/24/2002 3:16:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
> > Do any ofenough for
> > you teach your Teen children algebra?
>
> The unschooling philosophy is that people will learn what they need to
> learn
> by living life freely and joyfully in an environment that's rich
> them to both explore their interests and stumble across new interests.On the other hand - I have been teaching Algebra to my 14 yo and her 15
yo
friend. It started because they wanted to take music, computer, drama,
and
art courses at the local community college. They can do that without a
high
school diploma (they're doing it now) - but it requires a bit of running
around getting signatures for permission. They can avoid unit limits and
other hassles by having a high school diploma. One easy way to get that,
in
California, is to pass the California High School Proficiency Exam
(CHSPE).
So - that's what they've decided to do. It also gives them the ability
to
work without having to get a work permit - which can ALSO be a hassle
since
they are only given out by schools.
Anyway - wanting to take the CHSPE led to them wanting some tutoring in
math.
Neither had ever done a single minute of any formal math program - we
started
from ground zero with simple arithmetic and moved very quickly through
adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing of whole numbers and then
through fractions and decimals and percentages and exponents and roots.
Also
threw in some basic geometry and some consumer math - like figuring out
compound interest. Then they were ready for algebra. They could probably
pass
the test without algebra - they don't have to score all that high on the
test
to pass it - but they wanted to be really prepared so we looked around
at
different algebra materials and picked one out. They have had no trouble
learning it- at a very very fast pace - probably 10 times faster than in
a
college classroom situation. We've taken a hiatus for the past couple of
months because their college classes were taking a lot of their time (my
daughter is taking Beginning Voice, JavaScript programming, and History
of
Opera). But they did enjoy doing the algebra and plan to get back to it
soon.
The thing that interests me is that they pick up the techniques VERY
quickly
- they have no math anxiety at all - zero. If they don't understand
something, it doesn't bother them, they just ask questions and try to
see it
another way, etc. Very calm, very natural, very happy.
They read the material in the book on their own and work some problems.
I sit
with them once or twice a week and mostly chat with them about what
they're
working on - they ask me if there is something they don't understand.
Often
what they want to talk about is some idea of theirs that goes beyond the
textbook - some idea about how the stuff might be used or something
funny
they noticed, etc.
I feel SO validated that not doing any formal math was a good idea.
BUT - remember - we did a LOT of math in our everyday natural lives. I
notice
math and like it. We play a LOT of games and we do a lot of "math-talk"
in
our regular lives. For example, I remember eating M&Ms in the front seat
of
the car one day, with one kid sitting with me, waiting for something. I
casua
lly, just out of curiosity, wondered aloud, "Wonder what the probability
is
of randomly picking a red M&M out of the bag." My daughter dumped the
bag in
her lap and started sorting and counting. We went on from there -- after
figuring out the probability of picking one red M&M, I asked her,
jokingly,
"What's the probability of picking either a red or green or brown or ...
"--
listing all the colors. It is a probability of 1 or 100 percent which
led to
a little discussion about what 100 percent of something means. And so
on.
I think that if you're going to unschool math, you owe it to the kids to
be
willing to have some mathy types of conversations and to make yourself
learn
to enjoy them and get over your own math anxiety IF you have any. Don't
blame
yourself - school did it to you.
--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or
seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what
feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
Now, Kate, you haven't been watching your commercials! Chickens ain't got
no nuggets! <<bg>>
Lynda
no nuggets! <<bg>>
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <Katedavislawfirm@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] EMAIL SUGGESTION: WITH SOME FEEDBACK
> In a message dated 4/24/2002 6:16:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> fetteroll@... writes:
>
>
> > It's the difference between learning Spanish formally in a classroom and
> > learning it by going to Spain and having to use it to get what you need.
> >
>
> I LOVE these nuggets. (Not chicken nuggets, minds you -- chicken make
those
> BLECHY eggs).
>
> Anyway, it is always enlightening to have unschooling philosophy
compressed
> into such a descriptive "soundbite."
>
> Kate Davis
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>