Mary E Gates

I'm glad you feel this has helped you, but keep in mind this program
promotes adults "controlling" their children. Much of their advice is
detrimental to successful breastfeeding as well, in case anyone with
infants is looking into this.
Mary Ellen


>>>I just went through a class at our church called Growing Kids God's
Way. It was awesome! >>>>
___________________________________________________________________
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Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Mark & Julie

My oldest child is nearly nine. He is a great kid. He has a strong sense of self. He is confident, articulate, and helpful. He has loads of dramatic flair (most of my friends say he is destined for the stage!) and he loves his family. He is also opinionated, bossy, rude and will not take responsibility for his mistakes.

Which is what I need advice about. It is always somebody else who is in the wrong (in his mind) and because he is who he is, you cannot convince him otherwise. He is very sensitive to how he is spoken to but is not careful how he speaks to people and is becoming ruder and ruder with his brother and sister.

I love that he is confident about talking to anyone he meets but he goes overboard by monopolizing conversations when we are out and gets vrey offended if we ask him to let someone else have a turn!

My MIL is very like him and I see how she still doesn't take responsibility for her life (she still goes on about her brother getting more than her when they were children and she is 60!) and I worry that Jess is going to become that.

Is there anything I can do to help him? Or is it a problem in me? I know I can count on you guys to be brutally honest with me!! Okay, maybe not too brutal!

Julie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/19/03 12:59:51 AM, mjsolich@... writes:

<< I love that he is confident about talking to anyone he meets but he goes
overboard by monopolizing conversations when we are out and gets vrey
offended if we ask him to let someone else have a turn! >>

You could try for an enlightened self-interest approach, maybe. Tell him he
will get his way more if he allows other people to feel, sometimes, that
they're getting their way.

I have two stories. One is Kirby, who is often the most sparkly,
knowledgeable and verbal guy in a conversation. After noting a few times
that one person or another was feeling unable to get into the exchange, I got
a chance to be alone with Kirby (driving him to karate) and said I thing X
was uncomfortable yesterday, because the conversation was moving so fast and
so focussed on you. Maybe part of being a good host is trying to draw
everyone into the conversation. You're so interesting it's hard for them to
compete. Don't hog the air."

One other time I just said "Don't breathe more than your share of the air"
and he backed down from the spotlight and listened to the others.

The other story is older, but involves a club's politics. I learned this
trick on my own, and have passed it on to others with good results. When
clubs or projects are running by consensus and group effort, it can happen
that one person is getting his way a lot, not because he's a bully, but
because his ideas are good and workable. Still, no matter how workable,
there is an overlay in this society of taking turns and sharing, and
equality. So at some point someone will say "Well, Mark (to use a real
example <g>) has gotten his way the last five times, so let's let Kathryn (to
use a similar real name from the early situations) run it her way this time."

It appeases Kathryn, but is it good for the group?

And they won't really SAY "You've maxed out your quota of influence, so your
ideas will be rejected until you're back to acceptable levels."

So the way for that person to get the good ideas accepted is to plant them in
other people. Either give them away so they can be presented by others who
know they were your ideas but who will accept credit just for the sake of
getting the idea accepted, or putting it into the mind of a more selfish,
susceptible, needy person who WANTS to have his way, and just needed a good
idea to run with.

This can work two ways with a battering-ram of a kid. You can teach him that
trick. Or you can use that trick on him. If he's not going to take your
advice one more time, get someone else to drop a factoid or suggestion or a
"y'know..." his way. If they come from various places, he can't "ignore
mom." And when he's old enough to KNOW he wants his own way and to be
analytical about it, you could say "If you want to go to the movie you want
to go to, convince one of the other kids to want to go to it and to propose
it as HIS choice."

A criticism of this is that it's teaching a child to be manipulative, but
manipulation by another name is... management.

If he's already BEING manipulative, teaching him to do it gently and
unselfishly and convincing him (honestly) that it will up his stock and
popularity is a kindness.

Sandra

Shyrley

Mark & Julie wrote:

> My oldest child is nearly nine. He is a great kid. He has a strong sense of self. He is confident, articulate, and helpful. He has loads of dramatic flair (most of my friends say he is destined for the stage!) and he loves his family. He is also opinionated, bossy, rude and will not take responsibility for his mistakes.
>
> Which is what I need advice about. It is always somebody else who is in the wrong (in his mind) and because he is who he is, you cannot convince him otherwise. He is very sensitive to how he is spoken to but is not careful how he speaks to people and is becoming ruder and ruder with his brother and sister.
>
> I love that he is confident about talking to anyone he meets but he goes overboard by monopolizing conversations when we are out and gets vrey offended if we ask him to let someone else have a turn!
>

My 10 year old daughter is very like that. It's always someone else's fault :-(

Shyrley

Shyrley

Angela wrote:

> Shyrley wrote:
> My 10 year old daughter is very like that. It's always someone else's
> fault :-(
>
>
> Might it be the age? Just wondering. Kids often see things in black
> and white, right and wrong, no gray areas.
>

Well, if that age stretches from birth to 11 so far, then maybe :-)
I think some people are just like that. My sister is a prime example. She's 32 and is the most self-centered, the world owes me something, person I have ever met.
I still have hope for Heather though....

Shyrley

Angela

Shyrley wrote:
My 10 year old daughter is very like that. It's always someone else's
fault :-(



Might it be the age? Just wondering. Kids often see things in black
and white, right and wrong, no gray areas.

Angela in Maine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn Ackroyd

Wow!! We must have the same MIL!!! My husband and I have discussed this
very issue often. We're in a unique situation because my FIL works for
my husband - so I sure am interested in any advise people have for
people with challenges like this! My FIL's opinion is we shouldn't
criticize or suggest anything to her about these weaknesses as she
cannot take any kind of criticism at all. She sure can dish it out
though!

D

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark & Julie [mailto:mjsolich@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 1:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] need advice


My oldest child is nearly nine. He is a great kid. He has a strong sense
of self. He is confident, articulate, and helpful. He has loads of
dramatic flair (most of my friends say he is destined for the stage!)
and he loves his family. He is also opinionated, bossy, rude and will
not take responsibility for his mistakes.

Which is what I need advice about. It is always somebody else who is in
the wrong (in his mind) and because he is who he is, you cannot convince
him otherwise. He is very sensitive to how he is spoken to but is not
careful how he speaks to people and is becoming ruder and ruder with his
brother and sister.

I love that he is confident about talking to anyone he meets but he goes
overboard by monopolizing conversations when we are out and gets vrey
offended if we ask him to let someone else have a turn!

My MIL is very like him and I see how she still doesn't take
responsibility for her life (she still goes on about her brother
getting more than her when they were children and she is 60!) and I
worry that Jess is going to become that.

Is there anything I can do to help him? Or is it a problem in me? I
know I can count on you guys to be brutally honest with me!! Okay,
maybe not too brutal!

Julie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark & Julie

Okay, I have lifted the TV restrictions and the kids are watching lots and lots of TV/videos as I expected they would. I am having trouble not feeling guilty. I guess I feel like I am not doing anything and I am not used to feeling this way.

Sandra has talked about strewing their path with interesting things which I try to do but I don't know whether to ask if they would like to play a game or do a puzzle etc instead of watching TV or just let them be for a few months to get used to the freedom of having the TV available.

What can I do to alleviate feeling like I am not doing enough for them? Hmmm, I suppose I could do more with them even if it means watching The Magic School Bus for the tenth time. Aargh!

Julie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/13/03 9:59:50 PM, mjsolich@... writes:

<< Sandra has talked about strewing their path with interesting things which
I try to do but I don't know whether to ask if they would like to play a game
or do a puzzle etc instead of watching TV or just let them be for a few
months to get used to the freedom of having the TV available. >>

I'd do some of both, but I wouldn't say "Do you want to do a puzzle instead
of watching TV?"

Maybe get a puzzle out on a table in another room and just lay the pieces
out. See who bites. If nobody, put it back up later, or work the border and
leave it easy for people to wander by and add to, maybe.

It doesn't have to be scheduled or agreed to in advance or done all in one
pass.

<<What can I do to alleviate feeling like I am not doing enough for them?
Hmmm, I suppose I could do more with them even if it means watching The Magic
School Bus for the tenth time. Aargh!>>

What about finding something you do want to watch that they would want to wat
ch too? If they're liking a particular Magic Schoolbus, can you find
something that's related to the topic? And casually set it out or print
something out and tape it inside the bathroom door where you know they'll be
sitting sometime soon?

If in some connect-the-dots fashion you find another point or two related to
what they're doing, you'll be where they are to some degree and maybe not
feel too guilty.

Probably they'll lighten up.

What about adding things to where they are? Even if they're obsessed with
the repetition of one video, what about bringing Lego or food or laundry to
fold or something into that room?

When my kids are really liking a movie and there's a good soundtrack, I try
to get one. Sometimes I find them used at thriftstores. That's how I got
Stand By Me on a cassette. And I cycle those around. Sometimes in the car,
sometimes in Holly's room, sometimes back in the closet for a year or two.

Sandra

Stephanie Elms

> Sandra has talked about strewing their path with interesting
> things which I try to do but I don't know whether to ask if
> they would like to play a game or do a puzzle etc instead of
> watching TV or just let them be for a few months to get used
> to the freedom of having the TV available.

Let them go...how long has it been so far? Still offer other alternatives
but do not put pressure on them to *not* choose tv (that was the mistake
I made when giving up food restrictions...he had the ultimate choice but
I was still making his choice seem like the "bad" one. One way to help
with this (also helps you to see the benefit of tv) is to watch it with
them. Then you are interacting and enjoying it with them. I remember
feeling guilty when I watched with them (thinking that if they were watching
tv I should be cleaning or something). Now I realize that it is time well
spent enjoying something fun with my kids.

Also, don't forget you can do both? Lots of times I out a puzzle or game and
leave the tv while we play. SOmetimes we just play and ignore the tv, sometimes
they start playing and then something catches their interest on the tv and
we stop. Now that we have de-tved the boys often are finding their own things
to do while the tv is on (gone are the days of being glued to the tube!). And
I have also found that if what is on is not that interesting, they have absolutely
no problem with me turning it off. :o)

Hang in there! It is also good that spring is coming...I have found that as the
weather gets nicer they are watching less (their choice which is nice!). Seems
natural that way.

Hang in there. It can be hard at first letting go of that tv is evil thing...but speaking
as one who has been there it is worth letting go. :o)

Stephanie E. (tv restriction free since Oct 2002!)

kayb85

> What about finding something you do want to watch that they would
want to wat
> ch too? If they're liking a particular Magic Schoolbus, can you
find
> something that's related to the topic? And casually set it out or
print
> something out and tape it inside the bathroom door where you know
they'll be
> sitting sometime soon?
>
> If in some connect-the-dots fashion you find another point or two
related to
> what they're doing, you'll be where they are to some degree and
maybe not
> feel too guilty.

For anyone with kids into the magic school bus, their website is kind
of neat. There are fun online games and science experiment ideas.
http://www.scholastic.com/magicschoolbus/simplescience/home.htm

Sheila

kayb85

> Also, don't forget you can do both? Lots of times I out a puzzle or
game and
> leave the tv while we play. SOmetimes we just play and ignore the
tv, sometimes
> they start playing and then something catches their interest on the
tv and
> we stop. Now that we have de-tved the boys often are finding their
own things
> to do while the tv is on (gone are the days of being glued to the
tube!). And
> I have also found that if what is on is not that interesting, they
have absolutely
> no problem with me turning it off. :o)

I am the kind of person who cannot watch a tv show and hold a
conversation at the same time. I can't do anything that requires any
concentration at all while watching a show. I can fold laundry and
straighten up, but I can't put a puzzle together.

My kids do all kinds of things at the same time they're watching tv!
My daughter can actually read a book and watch a tv show at the same
time, and take them both in. That amazes me.

Sometimes she'll ask me to play a game with her while she watches a
tv show. I'll play the game with her but more often than not I have
no idea what is happening on the tv show, because my concentration is
on one thing at a time. Either the game or the tv, but not both at
once!

I wonder if maybe it's because she has unlimited tv that she can do
that. Or maybe it's just a difference in the way our brains work.

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/13/03 11:59:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mjsolich@... writes:

> Sandra has talked about strewing their path with interesting things which I
> try to do but I don't know whether to ask if they would like to play a game
> or do a puzzle etc instead of watching TV or just let them be for a few
> months to get used to the freedom of having the TV available.
>
> What can I do to alleviate feeling like I am not doing enough for them?
> Hmmm, I suppose I could do more with them even if it means watching The
> Magic School Bus for the tenth time. Aargh!
>
>

First off YEA!!! How great. You won't regret it.

Try to find your own passion. Try new things. You will be modeling behavior
you would like them to carry with them forever and you get to have fun too.
They may find something you are doing interesting and want to participate.
Or maybe not.

I do ask my children if they want to do things. "Hey guys it's beautiful out
do you want to go to the park?" Or investigate a new park or go to the zoo.
Search the web and try to find things in your area you haven't done or seen
before. It is easy to forget about things you like, even children can get
stuck in a rut. I wouldn't say ......instead of watching TV. Just offer the
suggestion of painting, or starting a garden, make cookies, go to the movies
or watch TV with them or .....

Don't pester though. Don't continue to try to find things for them to do.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/2003 12:16:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
genant2@... writes:

> I do ask my children if they want to do things. "Hey guys it's beautiful
> out
> do you want to go to the park?" Just offer the
> suggestion of painting, or starting a garden, make cookies, go to the
> movies
> or watch TV with them or .....
>
>

Ok, first let me balance my statement with the offering that I am seriously
NOT at all trying to be cantankerous or get any debate started, this is
merely a question that I'm hoping someone can answer for me to help me be a
better unschooling mom.

Ok, the question, several days ago I asked how I could expose my daughter to
some learning adventures, something she might find fun and even be math
related ( I got some really GOOD ideas and thanks to those of you who helped
me out), but I also got told I was WRONG, totally wrong for buying a computer
game and leaving it for my daughter to play or not play, no expectations.
That I shouldn't even be sending her links that I think are interesting, too
much pressure, too many expectations, not unschooling, were the remarks that
I got in response.

Which is it? Do we OFFER things we think our children might find interesting
or do we just wait for them to come to US with their questions about
something, then find out interesting things to do with their inquiry?

I also want to thank whoever sent the idea about the zoombini computer games.
Cait has had great fun with it for a few days now. She doesn't even have a
clue it's anything but about FUN and that's so wonderful to me!

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me clarify the unschooling principal
of either offering a child an opportunity or waiting for the child to ask for
one.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 4/14/03 2:53 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... at rubyprincesstsg@...
wrote:

> Which is it? Do we OFFER things we think our children might find interesting
> or do we just wait for them to come to US with their questions about
> something, then find out interesting things to do with their inquiry?

It depends.

We definitely should be making things available. But maybe ask yourself are
you offering it because it's something they might be interested in or
because you think it would be a good way of getting them from where they are
to where you think they should be?

Joyce

Tia Leschke

>
> Ok, the question, several days ago I asked how I could expose my daughter
to
> some learning adventures, something she might find fun and even be math
> related ( I got some really GOOD ideas and thanks to those of you who
helped
> me out), but I also got told I was WRONG, totally wrong for buying a
computer
> game and leaving it for my daughter to play or not play, no expectations.
> That I shouldn't even be sending her links that I think are interesting,
too
> much pressure, too many expectations, not unschooling, were the remarks
that
> I got in response.
>
> Which is it? Do we OFFER things we think our children might find
interesting
> or do we just wait for them to come to US with their questions about
> something, then find out interesting things to do with their inquiry?

I think in your case the advice was *because* your daughter had expressed a
disinterest in math. She didn't want to do it. The suggestions people are
giving in the TV question are more or less neutral things, just some
alternatives to TV. If math had never been an issue with your daughter, it
would have been fine to leave the CD around (assuming you have the money to
buy CDs that might not get used. I would get it from the library first, but
maybe your library doesn't have them.)
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/03 2:55:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:

> Which is it? Do we OFFER things we think our children might find
> interesting
> or do we just wait for them to come to US with their questions about
> something, then find out interesting things to do with their inquiry?
>
>

I don't remember exactly, but my thinking was that you were trying to get her
to do math. It wasn't because she was totally interested in Geometry and you
were trying to find something to help her with her questions. Weren't you
trying to get her interested in math to help her with medical school? I was
thinking it wasn't her idea at all, the math I mean. Getting a Math CD ROM
isn't in itself a bad thing to do as long as she has the option to put it
aside and never look at it. It goes with all the other CD ROMs. If I am
mixing you up with someone else please fill me in. I think a lot has to do
with the whys you are doing things, not always the whats. Was the math CD
ROM and book done to offer her something you really believe she is into or
interested in at the time? Something interesting and fun.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/2003 12:15:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
genant2@... writes:
> I do ask my children if they want to do things. "Hey guys it's beautiful
> out
> do you want to go to the park?" Or investigate a new park or go to the
> zoo.
> Search the web and try to find things in your area you haven't done or seen
>
> before. It is easy to forget about things you like, even children can get
> stuck in a rut. I wouldn't say ......instead of watching TV. Just offer
> the
> suggestion of painting, or starting a garden, make cookies, go to the
> movies
> or watch TV with them or .....

And if it's "on the calendar", it's something to look forward to and prepare
for.

Tomorrow we're going to the park, Wednesday we're meeting Bob and Sue at the
art place. Thursday I'm going to plant some tomatoes. Friday we're going to
the beach---whatever

I think it's easier when everyone is "on the same track" and is eagerly
awaiting the next "event" as opposed to (while they're really into playing
Leggos or watching TV) saying, "OK, who wants to go to the museum?" If they
know YOU're going today at 10:00, it's easier to "get in the mood".

Duncan always likes to hear what's planned (or not) for tomorrow when I'm
tucking him in at night. Sometimes we don't make our plans until he's going
to bed---as he brushes his teeth or after reading. Most are made in advance,
though.

Not that we don't do many things on the spur of the moment, but it's often
easier to get everyone out the door when they know what's happening a few
days before.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/2003 2:55:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
> Ok, the question, several days ago I asked how I could expose my daughter to
>
> some learning adventures, something she might find fun and even be math
> related ( I got some really GOOD ideas and thanks to those of you who
> helped
> me out), but I also got told I was WRONG, totally wrong for buying a
> computer
> game and leaving it for my daughter to play or not play, no expectations.
> That I shouldn't even be sending her links that I think are interesting,
> too
> much pressure, too many expectations, not unschooling, were the remarks
> that
> I got in response.
>
> Which is it? Do we OFFER things we think our children might find
> interesting
> or do we just wait for them to come to US with their questions about
> something, then find out interesting things to do with their inquiry?


It depends on YOUR motivation. Are you doing these things SO that she'll
learn math? Or because it'll be something she'd enjoy? Is it because it's "ed
ucational" or because it's fun? Do you have an ulterior motive? Is she in the
least bit pressured to "perform"?

If your daughter has an interest in medicine, surround her with related
things to pick up WHEN she wants to. (Microscope, Gray's Anatomy,
Candy-striping) But be willing to take "no" for an answer. There should be no
strings attached to anything.


>I also want to thank whoever sent the idea about the zoombini computer
games.
> Cait has had great fun with it for a few days now. She doesn't even have a
> clue it's anything but about FUN and that's so wonderful to me!

Watch your motivation! It IS FUN! THAT'S what's wonderful!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/03 12:55:09 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:

<< I also got told I was WRONG, totally wrong for buying a computer
game and leaving it for my daughter to play or not play, no expectations.
That I shouldn't even be sending her links that I think are interesting, >>

Is this list missing a lot of posts still? None of that sounds familiar, and
I read ever post I got.

<<Which is it? Do we OFFER things we think our children might find
interesting
or do we just wait for them to come to US with their questions about
something, then find out interesting things to do with their inquiry?>>

Depends. What did you find? How are you offering it? What are your
expectations?
It is neither just one thing nor the other, and in any division of the world
into JUST two things, you're creating a probably false dichotomy. Somewhere
is the right place between the extreme positions, and where YOUR right place
is depends on your own personal priorities.

I offer things to my kids, and they ask me questions, and I find them
interesting things to do sometimes. They offer things to me, and I ask them
questions, and they find me interesting things to do sometimes.

Sandra

Mary

From: <rubyprincesstsg@...>

<<Which is it? Do we OFFER things we think our children might find
interesting
or do we just wait for them to come to US with their questions about
something, then find out interesting things to do with their inquiry?>>



As an unschooling parent, I always make sure to supply whatever I can to my
children when they show an interest in something. Whether that's books,
movies, games, trips or conversation, etc. That's all based on their
interests. Aside from that, I also find things that come up that may just
interest them also, without them thinking about it. Just like I would say,
"hey there's a new movie coming out about______, do you want to go and see
it?" I would also ask if they are interested in swimming class or baseball
or whatever. The decision is always there. Sometimes they come up with
things and sometimes I do. If I get a notion that it's a beautiful day for
the park, I'll ask. If they want to go, we're there. If not, we stay put. I
never push, in any way, any of the above mentioned issues. Not movies,
sports ,math, reading or anything. But I see asking to go to the park or
swimming as much different than asking if we could do some math today.

The flack you got about your daughter had to do with math. YOU are, or were
convinced that she HAS to have math to do what she wants. She wasn't
interested at all. Not when you suggested computer programs, not when you
suggested to google it. She seemed to be saying no to you about math on more
than one occasion. You even said you had to go on about how she needed it.
That's the difference in what the others are talking about here. As long as
no one says, "you really NEED to go to the park with me or you NEED to stop
watching tv or even why don't you stop doing that and find something else to
do for awhile" then suggesting when an interest could be there is great.
It's pushing when no interest exists that is harmful.

Mary B

MARK and JULIE SOLICH

Thanks for all the great suggestions. They were really helpful.

We have a really old house with a 80sqm living area recently added on to the
rear of the house so the kitchen, dining and lounge are one huge room. I
have set the table up with puzzles and craft stuff and have put a blanket in
front of the TV for them to keep their Lego on. Everything is visible and
easily reached.

Thanks again.

Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: <genant2@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] need advice


> In a message dated 4/13/03 11:59:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mjsolich@... writes:
>
> > Sandra has talked about strewing their path with interesting things
which I
> > try to do but I don't know whether to ask if they would like to play a
game
> > or do a puzzle etc instead of watching TV or just let them be for a few
> > months to get used to the freedom of having the TV available.
> >
> > What can I do to alleviate feeling like I am not doing enough for them?
> > Hmmm, I suppose I could do more with them even if it means watching The
> > Magic School Bus for the tenth time. Aargh!
> >
> >
>
> First off YEA!!! How great. You won't regret it.
>
> Try to find your own passion. Try new things. You will be modeling
behavior
> you would like them to carry with them forever and you get to have fun
too.
> They may find something you are doing interesting and want to participate.
> Or maybe not.
>
> I do ask my children if they want to do things. "Hey guys it's beautiful
out
> do you want to go to the park?" Or investigate a new park or go to the
zoo.
> Search the web and try to find things in your area you haven't done or
seen
> before. It is easy to forget about things you like, even children can get
> stuck in a rut. I wouldn't say ......instead of watching TV. Just offer
the
> suggestion of painting, or starting a garden, make cookies, go to the
movies
> or watch TV with them or .....
>
> Don't pester though. Don't continue to try to find things for them to do.
> Pam G.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>
>

Rebecca DeLong

kayb85 <sheran@...> wrote:

<<<My kids do all kinds of things at the same time they're watching tv!
My daughter can actually read a book and watch a tv show at the same
time, and take them both in. That amazes me.>>>

I have always read better when the tv or radio is on. It's like I have to have something to block out to really get into what I'm reading. I used to beg my mom to let me have the tv on to do my homework, she never would, I was never able to finish my homework. I just couldn't concentrate on it, my mind would wonder and the next thing I knew it was hours later and I hadn't gotten anything done.

Rebecca

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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/2003 4:27:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
genant2@... writes:

> I don't remember exactly, but my thinking was that you were trying to get
> her
> to do math. It wasn't because she was totally interested in Geometry and
> you
> were trying to find something to help her with her questions.

My question was sort of two fold about the math. I, personally, was
concerned that I might not be opening enough doors for her to have a love of
math like some of the children here have. Obviously at some point SOMETHING
interested them enough to nurture the desire and love of math. I was looking
for something that might foster that love and learning.

I was concerned as a parent that by my just shrugging off her not picking up
anything "mathy" on her own to look at that I might be doing a disservice to
her later in life if she at some point (i.e., college) needed to be
knowledgeable about it. I didn't want her to HATE it when it became a
necessity IF it does.

I got some great answers about that and it more than reassured me that she
can easily pick it up when she truly needs it and is motivated to have it in
her life.

But the part about sending her links or purchasing a computer program and
leaving them around I thought I understood where things NOT to do. Just wait
until she actually asks about something or shows an interest THEN offer
whatever you can.

I know someone just said that park day or a movie is different than math.
But I WANT it to be no different, I don't want her to think of math as
something other than another cool learning experience and something to be
explored. That was really the root of the questioning and I didn't know how
to go about that and if I were really doing her any favors by just ignoring
her "educational needs". You all soothed my soul on that issue and I'm
completely comfortable with her finding it in her own time.

I bought the zoombini games, I played them myself, she saw them and she began
to play along. So she enjoyed that for a bit. I'm not sure how long it will
last. But I was torn at that thought too. Was I purchasing something and
laying it by the computer without her asking for it something I shouldn't do?

Shouldn't an exposure, experience with math be just as much an adventure as a
beautiful day in the park? Maybe I'm just wishing and hoping and it really
can't be that way.

So the short answer is expose them to as much as possible if they don't show
an interest in it then they don't but it's ok as long as you don't ask them
if they want to do ___________?

Thanks again for all the helpful advice you have offered.

glena


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/03 7:24:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< ( I got some really GOOD ideas and thanks to those of you who helped
me out), but I also got told I was WRONG, totally wrong for buying a
computer
game and leaving it for my daughter to play or not play, no expectations.
That I shouldn't even be sending her links that I think are interesting, too
much pressure, too many expectations, not unschooling, were the remarks that
I got in response. >>

That's not true at ALL.
We said that we DO send our kids links and buy interesting games and such,
but NOT after they've expressed no interest in said topic.
You were sending links and trying to GET your dd interested in something she
clearly did not want.
We were advising against that and instead focusing on the things she IS
interested in.
Huge difference.
I don't see how on earth you came to the above conclusion.


Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/2003 11:29:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

> We were advising against that and instead focusing on the things she IS
> interested in.
> Huge difference.
> I don't see how on earth you came to the above conclusion.
>
>
But I guess it seemed like a catch 22 to me. How would she/I KNOW if she
were interested in anything that was great fun and involved math if even I
didn't know what that might be?

She has never said I hate algebra, I don't want to do it, I'm not interested.
I think maybe once again I wasn't clear.

It was MY FEARS that I wasn't doing enough to expose her to any higher math.
That I was AFRAID it was up to me to introduce her and I wasn't really
because I didn't know a way to incorporate it into daily stuff. I said I had
bought an Algebra CD Rom and she hadn't picked it up, but she hadn't said she
didn't like it either. For all I know she hadn't even noticed it.

I was really looking for assurance that I didn't NEED to do anything about
bringing up the algebra and to know what others did that helped their
children foster a love of math.

It's like unschooling if you never heard of it, how do you know you want it?
If you never tried Godiva chocolate ice cream and no one mentioned it, you
would be really missing out. (if you like chocolate ice cream of course, but
if you never tried it, you might not even know you DO like it)

But I do get the idea of not pushing any one particular thing if they are not
interested. I didn't/don't. That was what I was worried about. Could it be
a good thing if I just let it go as I had been doing. I got the reassurances
that I needed that math is not this great mystery that must be learned in
layers throughout the learning years. I was reassured I was NOT neglecting
what she could/might need in a few short years for college.

I also got some great websites and ideas for really fun things to introduce,
THANKS.

I might actually get better at this one day, although I think it's working
pretty well already.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

> But the part about sending her links or purchasing a computer
program and
> leaving them around I thought I understood where things NOT to do.
Just wait
> until she actually asks about something or shows an interest THEN
offer
> whatever you can.

I like to think in terms of whether I would get this for my husband.
Dh and I are good buddies, and if I'm out and see something that I
know he would really like, I get it for him. I never get dh anything
just because I think he needs to read more or because I don't think
his math skills are sharp enough. But if I see something and
think, "Ooh, he will REALLY like that", I get it for him. I do the
same with my kids. And because my kids don't have to go to work and
have all day to play, I find a lot more cool things that I think they
will really enjoy. I don't even think in terms of "Ooh, if I get her
this book she'll read more". or "Ooooh, a good way to teach
division!" I just think in terms of "Oooh, she will REALLY like
this!"

> Shouldn't an exposure, experience with math be just as much an
adventure as a
> beautiful day in the park? Maybe I'm just wishing and hoping and
it really
> can't be that way.

Sometimes, if they're ready for the exposure, and it's what they need
at that very moment, sure! And I've had days when my kids have
turned down an offer for a day at the park. Not too often, but it's
happened!

Sheila

Mary

From: <rubyprincesstsg@...>

<<I know someone just said that park day or a movie is different than math.
But I WANT it to be no different, I don't want her to think of math as
something other than another cool learning experience and something to be
explored. That was really the root of the questioning and I didn't know
how
to go about that and if I were really doing her any favors by just ignoring
her "educational needs". You all soothed my soul on that issue and I'm
completely comfortable with her finding it in her own time.>>


I think you are referring to something I said. It was going on the
assunption that most children love the movies or park. From what you
described, your daughter was not liking math and was not interested in
having to like it. You said she needed it, she knew you said she needed and
she still wasn't interested. If my child said they really didn't like to go
to the park, I wouldn't drive by once a week saying look how much fun
everyone is having. I wouldn't tell them that as a child, they really should
like the park and I wouldn't ask them, even once a week if they wanted to
go. I'm not saying you did all those things but I'm stressing the point so
you see the difference.

If you don't stress needing math, the child will find it abundantly every
day in whatever it is she is interested in at the moment. Pointing it out
makes it all back fire. I mean pointing it out before they find it. Once
they enjoy it so much in their interest, you can say, see, that's math!!

Mary B

zenmomma *

>>Ok, the question, several days ago I asked how I could expose my daughter
>>to some learning adventures, something she might find fun and even be math
>>related ( I got some really GOOD ideas and thanks to those of you who
>>helped me out), but I also got told I was WRONG, totally wrong for buying
>>a computer game and leaving it for my daughter to play or not play, no
>>expectations.>>

This was a different scenario completely than the current situation. If I
remember, Glena, you had declared that your daughter "needed" to learn math
and you were looking for ways to get her interested. People here were
pointing out that that isn't the best way to get to an unschooling frame of
mind. We need to let go of the idea that our kids "need" to learn school
defined subjects on a timetable. The idea was that you should take the math
pressure off completely and help your daughter explore other things that she
is interested in right now. So the difference was in your intent.

>>Which is it? Do we OFFER things we think our children might find
>>interesting or do we just wait for them to come to US with their questions
>>about something, then find out interesting things to do with their
>>inquiry?>>

Both. But getting rid of *our* schooly expectations is always the first
step. Always work towards engaging your child's mind, not fufilling a
perceived future need.

>>Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me clarify the unschooling
>>principal of either offering a child an opportunity or waiting for the
>>child to ask for one.>>

It's not an either/or situation. Think in terms of fun and engaging, and
forget about terms like math and science. If fun and engaging are the goals
of the day, then strew, suggest and join in. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive."

~ Thich Nhat Hanh





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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/15/2003 1:16:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
zenmomma@... writes:

> It's not an either/or situation. Think in terms of fun and engaging, and
> forget about terms like math and science. If fun and engaging are the goals
>
> of the day, then strew, suggest and join in. :o)
>

Thanks, I am working on that, it's so much easier after all the comments that
math CAN be learned when one is ready and I'm not going to cause her to hate
me, math and life by ignoring it. (prime reason one shouldn't take too much
stock in a PS officials comment on unschooling I guess).

Thanks again.
glena


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