Re: Christian counter culture
rick and deborah farrington
yeah!
mrstar wrote:
mrstar wrote:
> From: "mrstar" <mrstar@...>
>
> Ann wrote<<<This intrigues me Mary.
> I am a non Christian, and I celebrate Christmas much the same as many
> Christians
> do.>>>
>
> Jesus wasn't even born in December or anywhere near December for that
> matter. The whole Christmas celebration came about as Christianity spread
> through Europe. When the Church started converting the cultures and tribes
> they would many times integrate parts of the culture into the Christian
> traditions so as to make the conversion more smooth, easy. It was supposed
> to make it easier to convert folks but what it really did was compromise
> Christianity and clutter it up with a bunch of pagan ritual. I don't know as
> much about this as I would like and as it stands now we still hold to some
> of the basic Christmas traditions such as a tree (which came from some pagan
> tradition or another, I can't recall which) and we decorate with stockings
> and stuff like that. We give a few gifts (mil gives too many gifts) and sing
> carols (ever notice, 'Deck the Halls' is not a Christmas song but a Yule
> song?) and we talk more about the birth of Christ. We do not do Santa (or
> that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. We talk about it
> and the kids pretend and have plenty of fun with it that way, but we don't
> insist (as my mil would like us to do) that Santa brought presents. We focus
> the holiday on God's gift of His son and on Jesus gift of His life. This is
> the theme of our life year round, no matter when Christ was born. I am
> actually starting to have an interest in the Jewish holidays and traditions
> (this is the culture our Lord lived in). I believe that in the future we
> may drastically alter how we view this holiday in light of the knowledge we
> are gaining of the origins of many of the traditions. Who was it that said
> they go up into the mountains for the holiday to get away from all the
> religious holiday stuff and eat at the Chinese restaurant on Christmas day?
> I could see us doing something similar to get away from all the 'religious'
> holiday stuff (non Christian, consumerism). Okay, done rambling.
>
> Mary in Idaho (Christian is counter culture)
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> Hi there! Don't y'all go tryin' to ruin Christmas for me... I'm in my 30'sI'm with you Monica! I collect Santas and treasure them. They
> and I choose to still believe in Santa Claus. One of my 3 sons doesn't, and
> that's fine. Neither does my husband, and that's fine, too. Doesn't bother
> me a bit... but, for me, Santa.. or at least the idea of Santa.. is still
> very much alive and real.
>
remind be that it's more blessed to give than to receive. My parents
taught me that Santa was the spirit of giving and I have passed that
on to my own children. My daughter was a little miffed when she
discovered that we were behind the gifts that she received, but
she's 19 now and has no objection to the fact that Santa still finds
her.
mrstar
Ann wrote<<<This intrigues me Mary.
I am a non Christian, and I celebrate Christmas much the same as many
Christians
do.>>>
Jesus wasn't even born in December or anywhere near December for that
matter. The whole Christmas celebration came about as Christianity spread
through Europe. When the Church started converting the cultures and tribes
they would many times integrate parts of the culture into the Christian
traditions so as to make the conversion more smooth, easy. It was supposed
to make it easier to convert folks but what it really did was compromise
Christianity and clutter it up with a bunch of pagan ritual. I don't know as
much about this as I would like and as it stands now we still hold to some
of the basic Christmas traditions such as a tree (which came from some pagan
tradition or another, I can't recall which) and we decorate with stockings
and stuff like that. We give a few gifts (mil gives too many gifts) and sing
carols (ever notice, 'Deck the Halls' is not a Christmas song but a Yule
song?) and we talk more about the birth of Christ. We do not do Santa (or
that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. We talk about it
and the kids pretend and have plenty of fun with it that way, but we don't
insist (as my mil would like us to do) that Santa brought presents. We focus
the holiday on God's gift of His son and on Jesus gift of His life. This is
the theme of our life year round, no matter when Christ was born. I am
actually starting to have an interest in the Jewish holidays and traditions
(this is the culture our Lord lived in). I believe that in the future we
may drastically alter how we view this holiday in light of the knowledge we
are gaining of the origins of many of the traditions. Who was it that said
they go up into the mountains for the holiday to get away from all the
religious holiday stuff and eat at the Chinese restaurant on Christmas day?
I could see us doing something similar to get away from all the 'religious'
holiday stuff (non Christian, consumerism). Okay, done rambling.
Mary in Idaho (Christian is counter culture)
I am a non Christian, and I celebrate Christmas much the same as many
Christians
do.>>>
Jesus wasn't even born in December or anywhere near December for that
matter. The whole Christmas celebration came about as Christianity spread
through Europe. When the Church started converting the cultures and tribes
they would many times integrate parts of the culture into the Christian
traditions so as to make the conversion more smooth, easy. It was supposed
to make it easier to convert folks but what it really did was compromise
Christianity and clutter it up with a bunch of pagan ritual. I don't know as
much about this as I would like and as it stands now we still hold to some
of the basic Christmas traditions such as a tree (which came from some pagan
tradition or another, I can't recall which) and we decorate with stockings
and stuff like that. We give a few gifts (mil gives too many gifts) and sing
carols (ever notice, 'Deck the Halls' is not a Christmas song but a Yule
song?) and we talk more about the birth of Christ. We do not do Santa (or
that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. We talk about it
and the kids pretend and have plenty of fun with it that way, but we don't
insist (as my mil would like us to do) that Santa brought presents. We focus
the holiday on God's gift of His son and on Jesus gift of His life. This is
the theme of our life year round, no matter when Christ was born. I am
actually starting to have an interest in the Jewish holidays and traditions
(this is the culture our Lord lived in). I believe that in the future we
may drastically alter how we view this holiday in light of the knowledge we
are gaining of the origins of many of the traditions. Who was it that said
they go up into the mountains for the holiday to get away from all the
religious holiday stuff and eat at the Chinese restaurant on Christmas day?
I could see us doing something similar to get away from all the 'religious'
holiday stuff (non Christian, consumerism). Okay, done rambling.
Mary in Idaho (Christian is counter culture)
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/30/99 9:47:15 AM EST, mrstar@... writes:
<< We do not do Santa (or
that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. >>
Neither do we and everyone thinks it is just terrible!! The family thinks
we are "robbing our children" by not perpetuating this lie! I, however, do
not think my children are sufferring because Mom buys their teeth instead of
the Tooth Fairy, or we go to church and celebrate Christ rising instead of
the Easter Bunny. I am so glad to see others with this view also! Let's keep
up a tradition of truth!
Blessings, Lori in TX
<< We do not do Santa (or
that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. >>
Neither do we and everyone thinks it is just terrible!! The family thinks
we are "robbing our children" by not perpetuating this lie! I, however, do
not think my children are sufferring because Mom buys their teeth instead of
the Tooth Fairy, or we go to church and celebrate Christ rising instead of
the Easter Bunny. I am so glad to see others with this view also! Let's keep
up a tradition of truth!
Blessings, Lori in TX
[email protected]
In a message dated 99-09-30 12:54:03 EDT, you write:
<<
<< We do not do Santa (or
that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. >>
one--
what about letting children learn to love the mysteries of life? I know my
paretns told me stories of faries and elves, santa and the easter bunny,
knomes and angels,
and today I am a Christian. I wouldnt have beena ble to become a believer of
something so abstract as the bible (a book not written by anyone I know) and
in Jesus (someone I technically have never met) without understanding that
there are many mysteries in life. Just something to think about--
and Santa isnt lying, if you make him out to be the spirit of giving, which
we have with our childrne.
Rachael
<<
<< We do not do Santa (or
that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. >>
>>I understand your beliefs, and I respect them, but I ahve a question on this
one--
what about letting children learn to love the mysteries of life? I know my
paretns told me stories of faries and elves, santa and the easter bunny,
knomes and angels,
and today I am a Christian. I wouldnt have beena ble to become a believer of
something so abstract as the bible (a book not written by anyone I know) and
in Jesus (someone I technically have never met) without understanding that
there are many mysteries in life. Just something to think about--
and Santa isnt lying, if you make him out to be the spirit of giving, which
we have with our childrne.
Rachael
David Albert
Roop0625@... wrote:
been lying to them about the easter bunny and Santa Claus, they
inevitably wonder what else they have been lied to about. Some become
cynical -- which is harder to undo than is creating a sense of the
miraculous. (I'd be quite willing to bet -- if Quakers didn't have a
testimony against gambling -- that more Christians have been unmade that
way than made.) We choose to celebrate the mysterious (the writing of
the Mozart Requiem or the painting the Sistine Chapel) or the miraculous
(the original creation of life from inorganic matter)
The bigger challenge for me has always been making sure children are in
charge of their own fantasy play -- in our culture, Santa Claus and the
Easter Bunny are just one step removed from Barbie and G.I. Joe. We
know that our kids can do better, A LOT better, than this if we just
give them the opportunity.
(my book -- off the press today!! -- has a whole chapter on this -- I'll
be happy to share it for anyone who asks as a Word attachment for anyone
who asks -- but I won't clutter up the list.)
David Albert
--
My book "And the Skylark Sings with Me: Adventures in Homeschooling and
Community-Based Education" will be off the press around September 30.
To read a sample chapter, reviewers' comments, or the foreword, visit my
website at http://www.skylarksings.com
> From: Roop0625@...My experience is the opposite. When children realize that adults have
>
> In a message dated 99-09-30 12:54:03 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> << We do not do Santa (or
> that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. >>
> >>
>
> I understand your beliefs, and I respect them, but I ahve a question
> on this
> one--
>
> what about letting children learn to love the mysteries of life? I
> know my
> paretns told me stories of faries and elves, santa and the easter
> bunny,
> knomes and angels,
> and today I am a Christian.
been lying to them about the easter bunny and Santa Claus, they
inevitably wonder what else they have been lied to about. Some become
cynical -- which is harder to undo than is creating a sense of the
miraculous. (I'd be quite willing to bet -- if Quakers didn't have a
testimony against gambling -- that more Christians have been unmade that
way than made.) We choose to celebrate the mysterious (the writing of
the Mozart Requiem or the painting the Sistine Chapel) or the miraculous
(the original creation of life from inorganic matter)
The bigger challenge for me has always been making sure children are in
charge of their own fantasy play -- in our culture, Santa Claus and the
Easter Bunny are just one step removed from Barbie and G.I. Joe. We
know that our kids can do better, A LOT better, than this if we just
give them the opportunity.
(my book -- off the press today!! -- has a whole chapter on this -- I'll
be happy to share it for anyone who asks as a Word attachment for anyone
who asks -- but I won't clutter up the list.)
David Albert
--
My book "And the Skylark Sings with Me: Adventures in Homeschooling and
Community-Based Education" will be off the press around September 30.
To read a sample chapter, reviewers' comments, or the foreword, visit my
website at http://www.skylarksings.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/30/99 11:16:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
shantinik@... writes:
<< My experience is the opposite. When children realize that adults have
been lying to them about the easter bunny and Santa Claus, they
inevitably wonder what else they have been lied to about. >>
LOL, my kids still believe in Santa, and they are in their 20's...
Charlotte
shantinik@... writes:
<< My experience is the opposite. When children realize that adults have
been lying to them about the easter bunny and Santa Claus, they
inevitably wonder what else they have been lied to about. >>
LOL, my kids still believe in Santa, and they are in their 20's...
Charlotte
faith buckley
My family doesn't do Halloween either. Everything that is done on Halloween,
from bobbing for apples to wearing costumes, stems from pagan rituals. Even
making a jack-o-lantern. Our church holds a Hallelujah Night which gives the
families in our church an alternative.My kids love it. No costumes, but lots of
games, singing, and FOOD!
And about the santa thing. I have a friend of mine who honestly doesn't let
anything into his family's house that has anything to do with santa. He thinks
it's a little peculiar that the letters from Santa also spell satan. :-)
Anyway, we aren't that strict but we don't do santa, fairies or bunnies either.
I believe my kids need to center their lives around the true meanings behind the
holidays. Not fairy tale myths or falsehoods. Like you said it's just like
lying.
But that is the way my family is, not everyone celebrates that way and that's
cool. Everyone has their own view points. Mine just happens to be right! Just
kidding! I'm trying to put a joke in here or there!! Just to lighten things up
a little.
Bless you!
Living for Him,
Faith
mrstar wrote:
from bobbing for apples to wearing costumes, stems from pagan rituals. Even
making a jack-o-lantern. Our church holds a Hallelujah Night which gives the
families in our church an alternative.My kids love it. No costumes, but lots of
games, singing, and FOOD!
And about the santa thing. I have a friend of mine who honestly doesn't let
anything into his family's house that has anything to do with santa. He thinks
it's a little peculiar that the letters from Santa also spell satan. :-)
Anyway, we aren't that strict but we don't do santa, fairies or bunnies either.
I believe my kids need to center their lives around the true meanings behind the
holidays. Not fairy tale myths or falsehoods. Like you said it's just like
lying.
But that is the way my family is, not everyone celebrates that way and that's
cool. Everyone has their own view points. Mine just happens to be right! Just
kidding! I'm trying to put a joke in here or there!! Just to lighten things up
a little.
Bless you!
Living for Him,
Faith
mrstar wrote:
> From: "mrstar" <mrstar@...>
>
> We do not do Santa (or that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like
> lying. We talk about it
> and the kids pretend and have plenty of fun with it that way, but we don't
> insist (as my mil would like us to do) that Santa brought presents. We focus
> the holiday on God's gift of His son and on Jesus gift of His life. This is
> the theme of our life year round, no matter when Christ was born. I am
> actually starting to have an interest in the Jewish holidays and traditions
> (this is the culture our Lord lived in).
>
> Mary in Idaho (Christian is counter culture)
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com
Monica L. Molinar
> << My experience is the opposite. When children realize that adults haveHi there! Don't y'all go tryin' to ruin Christmas for me... I'm in my 30's
> been lying to them about the easter bunny and Santa Claus, they
> inevitably wonder what else they have been lied to about. >>
>
> LOL, my kids still believe in Santa, and they are in their 20's...
>
> Charlotte
and I choose to still believe in Santa Claus. One of my 3 sons doesn't, and
that's fine. Neither does my husband, and that's fine, too. Doesn't bother
me a bit... but, for me, Santa.. or at least the idea of Santa.. is still
very much alive and real.
Driving past Santa's house today...
Monica
[email protected]
<< << We do not do Santa (or
that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. >>
<<When children realize that adults have
been lying to them about the easter bunny and Santa Claus, they
inevitably wonder what else they have been lied to about.>>
when my first child was little i wondered if she would feel this way, but i
have come to a place where i realize that kids dont see it the way an adult
would-- feeling betrayed, etc. i think, as several others have mentioned,
that they would be more likely to become more cynical and more likely to lose
the sense of the magical and mysterious if you take these untangibles away.
perhaps we are all projecting our own reactions onto our children, which is
only natural. we didnt do santa (etc) at my home growing up and i really
still dont get as easily stirred up as some about the magical and mysterious!
i have had a disadvantage there i think and am sooo glad that the religion
that is my own has plenty of it to ignite those other senses besides
intellectual... it is easy to just "be practical" for me, but if that is our
focus we sure miss out on a lot... honesty is important but it is not about
that. if we look deeper than face value and literalism-- we can see that we
can share the "embodiment of" or "spirit of" without literally saying "sorry
kiddos, its all a lie!"
erin
that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. >>
<<When children realize that adults have
been lying to them about the easter bunny and Santa Claus, they
inevitably wonder what else they have been lied to about.>>
when my first child was little i wondered if she would feel this way, but i
have come to a place where i realize that kids dont see it the way an adult
would-- feeling betrayed, etc. i think, as several others have mentioned,
that they would be more likely to become more cynical and more likely to lose
the sense of the magical and mysterious if you take these untangibles away.
perhaps we are all projecting our own reactions onto our children, which is
only natural. we didnt do santa (etc) at my home growing up and i really
still dont get as easily stirred up as some about the magical and mysterious!
i have had a disadvantage there i think and am sooo glad that the religion
that is my own has plenty of it to ignite those other senses besides
intellectual... it is easy to just "be practical" for me, but if that is our
focus we sure miss out on a lot... honesty is important but it is not about
that. if we look deeper than face value and literalism-- we can see that we
can share the "embodiment of" or "spirit of" without literally saying "sorry
kiddos, its all a lie!"
erin
David Albert
MORELFAM@... wrote:
can very easily understand play acting, and can make easy distinctions
between what is real and what is not. Play acting does not make me more
cynical. But this is much more difficult for children. (I think you
are covering for them, thinking that since it has no such effect upon
you as an adult, it is unlikely to have such an effect on kids.)
But this isn't the real issue anyway. The important aspect is how we
can co-create stories, myths, rituals, meaning with our kids, so that we
can grow together as families. The Santa Claus thing, taken by itself
is static -- it doesn't change, except that the kids' expectations for
larger presents grow. If we can find ways to use Santa Claus in a way
which nurtures a child's natural sense of good will -- the Santa Claus
within -- then it can become very powerful indeed. But the fact that
Santa comes with so much baggage attached makes it that much more
difficutlt.
David
--
My book "And the Skylark Sings with Me: Adventures in Homeschooling and
Community-Based Education" will be off the press around September 30.
To read a sample chapter, reviewers' comments, or the foreword, visit my
website at http://www.skylarksings.com
> From: MORELFAM@...Actually, and in my personal experience, the opposite is true. Adults
>
> << << We do not do Santa (or
> that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. >>
>
> <<When children realize that adults have
> been lying to them about the easter bunny and Santa Claus, they
> inevitably wonder what else they have been lied to about.>>
>
> when my first child was little i wondered if she would feel this way,
> but i
> have come to a place where i realize that kids dont see it the way an
> adult
> would-- feeling betrayed, etc. i think, as several others have
> mentioned,
> that they would be more likely to become more cynical and more likely
> to lose
> the sense of the magical and mysterious if you take these untangibles
> away.
> perhaps we are all projecting our own reactions onto our children,
> which is
> only natural.
can very easily understand play acting, and can make easy distinctions
between what is real and what is not. Play acting does not make me more
cynical. But this is much more difficult for children. (I think you
are covering for them, thinking that since it has no such effect upon
you as an adult, it is unlikely to have such an effect on kids.)
But this isn't the real issue anyway. The important aspect is how we
can co-create stories, myths, rituals, meaning with our kids, so that we
can grow together as families. The Santa Claus thing, taken by itself
is static -- it doesn't change, except that the kids' expectations for
larger presents grow. If we can find ways to use Santa Claus in a way
which nurtures a child's natural sense of good will -- the Santa Claus
within -- then it can become very powerful indeed. But the fact that
Santa comes with so much baggage attached makes it that much more
difficutlt.
David
--
My book "And the Skylark Sings with Me: Adventures in Homeschooling and
Community-Based Education" will be off the press around September 30.
To read a sample chapter, reviewers' comments, or the foreword, visit my
website at http://www.skylarksings.com
faith buckley
> << << We do not do Santa (orA true story:
> that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. >>
>
> <<When children realize that adults have
> been lying to them about the easter bunny and Santa Claus, they
> inevitably wonder what else they have been lied to about.>>
I knew a mother that told her son about Santa and the easter bunny. One day,
when he was about 4 or so, he heard that they weren't real and wanted an answer
out of mommy. She told him that Santa was just a story and all of the good stuff
about the giving spirit. But the question he came back with left her
speechless! He asked her, "Then is Jesus real?" She realized that, as most
children can't, her son couldn't differentiate between real and make-believe.
Just something more to add to the conversation.
Living for Him,
Faith
Joel Hawthorne
In our family our six year old insisted on knowing what the Easter Bunny was all
about. She was asked what she thought and she said that she thought that Mama was
doing it. This was confirmed and my daughter chortled with laughter she thought it
was wonderful that mama was going around the house doing all this Easter stuff. She
thought it was funny too. No resentment or upset re: being "lied" to. She saw it
for what it was, an attempt on the parents part to delight their children with a
magical play (which for us has little religious significance). We have talked a
little bit about the many world religions which have their god figure either die or
be killed, and who then comes back to life. She is only moderately interested.
We don't try to "trick" the children about Santa (who we have bring gifts every
Christmas) but as they have grown up the older one finally asked point blank about
Santa because she already had reasoned that it didn't really make sense. She wasn't
disappointed as we merely confirmed what she knew. She then participated in the
fiction with her sister.
We answer the questions with "What do you think?" and leave it at that unless they
get to the point blank stage where they want confirmation or denial of their
opinion. I used to worry about it but am reassured by how the kids have responded.
They really sense the intention of this kind of myth/game/play/theatre/ and because
we do not try to "convince" them of the "reality" of the myth they don't seem to feel
conflicted about it. Our love for them shines through it all.
faith buckley wrote:
best wishes
Joel
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative
justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org
about. She was asked what she thought and she said that she thought that Mama was
doing it. This was confirmed and my daughter chortled with laughter she thought it
was wonderful that mama was going around the house doing all this Easter stuff. She
thought it was funny too. No resentment or upset re: being "lied" to. She saw it
for what it was, an attempt on the parents part to delight their children with a
magical play (which for us has little religious significance). We have talked a
little bit about the many world religions which have their god figure either die or
be killed, and who then comes back to life. She is only moderately interested.
We don't try to "trick" the children about Santa (who we have bring gifts every
Christmas) but as they have grown up the older one finally asked point blank about
Santa because she already had reasoned that it didn't really make sense. She wasn't
disappointed as we merely confirmed what she knew. She then participated in the
fiction with her sister.
We answer the questions with "What do you think?" and leave it at that unless they
get to the point blank stage where they want confirmation or denial of their
opinion. I used to worry about it but am reassured by how the kids have responded.
They really sense the intention of this kind of myth/game/play/theatre/ and because
we do not try to "convince" them of the "reality" of the myth they don't seem to feel
conflicted about it. Our love for them shines through it all.
faith buckley wrote:
> From: faith buckley <faithb@...>--
>
> > << << We do not do Santa (or
> > that bunny or fairy either) just cause it is like lying. >>
> >
> > <<When children realize that adults have
> > been lying to them about the easter bunny and Santa Claus, they
> > inevitably wonder what else they have been lied to about.>>
>
> A true story:
> I knew a mother that told her son about Santa and the easter bunny. One day,
> when he was about 4 or so, he heard that they weren't real and wanted an answer
> out of mommy. She told him that Santa was just a story and all of the good stuff
> about the giving spirit. But the question he came back with left her
> speechless! He asked her, "Then is Jesus real?" She realized that, as most
> children can't, her son couldn't differentiate between real and make-believe.
>
> Just something more to add to the conversation.
> Living for Him,
> Faith
best wishes
Joel
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative
justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org