Lily James

Hi all! :)

I have a wild and wonderful two year old and I'm thinking and exploring and
reading about different school, homeschool, unschool, megaschool, nonschool,
ultraubersuperschool, etc. options available to us as my husband and I
consider trying to keep him alive to the age of 18. :)

I guess what we're doing right now is probably somewhere between unschool
and homeschool. But I won't get into that ;) I'm sure you DON'T want to hear
about it!

My question is this: How do unschoolers feel about lessons? Piano lessons,
swimming lessons, tai chi lessons, etc. I'm talking about where the child
goes to a place, with another adult, not the parent, and learns in a
structured way about something. Ever do that? Or is it bad-bad-bad?

Love,
LILY

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rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lily James" <glamatron@h...> wrote:

>
> My question is this: How do unschoolers feel about lessons? Piano
lessons,
> swimming lessons, tai chi lessons, etc. I'm talking about where the
child
> goes to a place, with another adult, not the parent, and learns in a
> structured way about something. Ever do that? Or is it bad-bad-bad?
>
> Love,
> LILY
>

My girls take a chem class and a ham class. I still consider them
unschoolers. Funny thing is, Rachel questioned it. I told her as
long as it was her choice to take the classes she was still practicing
freedom.

Bridget

joanna514

> My question is this: How do unschoolers feel about lessons? Piano
lessons,
> swimming lessons, tai chi lessons, etc. I'm talking about where the
child
> goes to a place, with another adult, not the parent, and learns in
a
> structured way about something. Ever do that? Or is it bad-bad-bad?
>
> Love,
> LILY

It's is usually good-good-good here at our house. If it's not, we
drop it.
My kids are in sports and 4-H and scouts and one is thinking of
starting violin, but hasn't pushed the issue yet. All of this comes
from their desires or my suggestions and we go with whatever they
like and want. And not liking or wanting is perfectly acceptable.
Joanna

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In a message dated 3/30/02 7:02:42 AM, glamatron@... writes:

<< My question is this: How do unschoolers feel about lessons? Piano lessons,
swimming lessons, tai chi lessons, etc. I'm talking about where the child
goes to a place, with another adult, not the parent, and learns in a
structured way about something. Ever do that? Or is it bad-bad-bad? >>

I have one who is very involved in a karate school, and has been for six
years. I shopped around for one that was more into philosophy than
"fighting," and we're really happy with it. Kirby teaches one of the
beginning classes each week, and participates with the adults in seminars and
special events. They would let him be in the adult class, but he prefers the
advanced kids' class, because he has friends there he's known for years and
that's the only time he sees them. Most of them are totally scheduled all
week with other lessons.

Holly has taken dance classes and is in an acting class for homeschoolers
(ending at the end of April) and is about to start a year at an acting school
where she knows no one. She's really excited about it though. When we
signed her up we told them our priority as parents was that she have fun and
not be overly pressured. We said she was doing it because SHE wanted to,
and if she didn't like it we wouldn't press her to continue. They didn't act
like they had heard that before. It doesn't matter; that's our deal with
Holly.

Marty played ice hockey one year but didn't like the locker room culture and
traditions. He had taken six skating levels before that (a deal he made with
me--that he could play hockey if he took their six classes first so he would
be a really competent skater and less likely to get huled with the "OH aren't
you CUTE!" from the older girls and women (he was eight).

Oh! Holly was learning fiddle from a homeschooling dad (violinist from age 8
who three years ago started doing Celtic and bluegrass) who was himself
experimenting with teaching in a more student-focussed and less "curriculum"
focussed way, so it was an experiment for both of them. She's taking a break
from the lessons, but still practices sometimes and fully intends to go back,
maybe in summer.

If the child is the focus and not the "subject matter," if it comes from
their interest and curiosity and not the parents' pressure or requirement,
the traditional pressures aren't so much in effect. If it's something they
can't do at home (ice skating, acting in a play in a real theatre), their
voluntary participation doesn't, in my opinion, change the unschooling aspect
of their lives.

If I convinced them (subtly or overtly) that they weren't likely to learn
science or history at our house, but they needed to want to take classes
elsewhere, I'd think neither I nor they were very clear on the potential of
unschooling.

Sandra

zenmomma *

Hi LILY and welcome. :o)

>>I guess what we're doing right now is probably somewhere between unschool
>>and homeschool. But I won't get into that ;) I'm sure you DON'T want to
>>hear about it!>>

Well, *I* do. ;-) And since he's only 2, I would guess it's a lot more like
unschool than homeschool. Isn't everything a 2 year old does driven by
self-interest. LOL! Playing with letters and numbers, reading together,
trips to the park, puzzles, Sesame Street, talking, laughing. Am I close?


>>My question is this: How do unschoolers feel about lessons? Piano lessons,
>>swimming lessons, tai chi lessons, etc. I'm talking about where the child
>>goes to a place, with another adult, not the parent, and learns in a
>>structured way about something. Ever do that? Or is it bad-bad-bad?>>

My kids take/have taken lots of classes. We measure the effectiveness of a
class on the joy-scale. Is it bringing joy and happy learning to my kids? If
they say yes, the class continues. If not, we move on.

Life is good.
~Mary



















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Lynda

The kidlets have taken lessons here and there. IMHO, if the child asks for
the lessons, helps find the teacher/class and isn't "forced" to practice or
study or continue the lessons/class, then it is unschooling.

However, if it is all about mom/dad doing all the research about the
school/class/teacher, mom/dad finding just the right school/class/teacher
that mom/dad thinks will be the right fit and as time goes on is what
mom/dad thinks fills the bill and that good ol' collective nursey pronoun
"we" keeps coming up, then it is sugar-coated unschooling which would be all
about fitting it into a parent defined box and not about child-led.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lily James" <glamatron@...
>
> Hi all! :)
>
> My question is this: How do unschoolers feel about lessons? Piano lessons,
> swimming lessons, tai chi lessons, etc. I'm talking about where the child
> goes to a place, with another adult, not the parent, and learns in a
> structured way about something. Ever do that? Or is it bad-bad-bad?
>
> Love,
> LILY
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>

rumpleteasermom

You know, I guess I'm pretty lucky in that regard. I know my girls
are not swayed by my opinion of what they should do. They are just
really strong willed people (don't know where they get THAT from)and
not in the least afraid to tell me they are uninterested in something.
But I can see in some of my real life friends the potential for them
to be leading the child without realizing it.

Bridget

-- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:

>
> However, if it is all about mom/dad doing all the research about the
> school/class/teacher, mom/dad finding just the right
school/class/teacher
> that mom/dad thinks will be the right fit and as time goes on is
what
> mom/dad thinks fills the bill and that good ol' collective nursey
pronoun
> "we" keeps coming up, then it is sugar-coated unschooling which
would be all
> about fitting it into a parent defined box and not about child-led.
>
> Lynda

Joan Wilson

I think the question is how does your child feel about them. :)
My question is this: How do unschoolers feel about lessons? Piano lessons,
swimming lessons, tai chi lessons, etc. I'm talking about where the child
goes to a place, with another adult, not the parent, and learns in a
structured way about something. Ever do that? Or is it bad-bad-bad?

Love,
LILY

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http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/2002 11:05:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jroselady@... writes:


>
> My question is this: How do unschoolers feel about lessons? Piano
> lessons,
> swimming lessons, tai chi lessons, etc. I'm talking about where the child
> goes to a place, with another adult, not the parent, and learns in a
> structured way about something. Ever do that? Or is it bad-bad-bad?

I make my kids beg for 'em first <G>.

Seriously - we sometimes use experts, of course. But it is not IMPOSED - it
is by choice. When the kids take piano lessons - which they've all done at
different times - it is because they REALLY want to do it. If they don't want
to continue, then they don't continue.

The difference is that the child is doing the choosing - and is choosing to
learn something from that expert and can choose to stop it if they don't
think it is working for them or if they just lose interest.

And, before you ask, yes sometimes they just don't feel like going THAT day
and yes I nudge a bit and encourage them to recognize that it is a momentary
whim and to see that they'd be sorry to drop the whole activity because they
didn't feel like going to one lesson. And no I don't make them practice EVER
and yes I'm willing to pay for lessons because it is LESSONS that they want
(assuming we can afford them). And yes there are weeks and months that they
don't practice, but just show up at the lesson each week unprepared. I make
sure we have teachers who are okay with that and tell them I'm willing to pay
for that half-hour a week of them working with my kid even if the progress is
super slow at times because the kids don't practice. And yes the kids do
practice in spurts. My 14 yo is now asking to go back to piano and violin
lessons and she's spending a lot of time playing piano and violin on her own
right now. She'll definitely practice on her own too because she's highly
motivated right now. If she loses interest and wants to spend her time doing
something else, later, then that's what she'll do.

--pamS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/02 12:05:08 PM, jroselady@... writes:

<< Ever do that? Or is it bad-bad-bad? >>

We've done it sometimes. Karate. Ice hockey. Fiddle lessons. We take
steps to keep it from being bad-bad. I've given teachers copies of articles
on homeschooling, and told them we're avoiding harsh criticism, and have told
them that if the kids lose interest that's okay.

What their teachers have liked the most about them is the sweet openness,
their true desire to learn, their active curiosity... So the few times
there's been a problem, I've reminded them they LIKE those kids, and the
difference is directly attributable to their being homeschooled, and so not
to razz them about unschooling.

Sandra

Helen Hegener

At 7:20 PM -0400 4/8/2002, SandraDodd@... wrote:
>What their teachers have liked the most about them is the sweet openness,
>their true desire to learn, their active curiosity...

Jody (22) ran into that when she took an intensive 10-day residential
course through the American Alpine Institute to become a Wilderness
First Aid Responder:
http://www.aai.cc/

She was one of only two girls (the other was a 32-yo reg. nurse), one
of the very few without some kind of prior medical training (she had
a Red Cross 1st aid card), and had never been in a classroom
environment before. She showed up at the first day of classes without
so much as a notebook and pen!

She still laughs about her final essay paper - she'd torn it up in
frustration the night before it was due, then thought "what the hell"
and straightened it all back out, taped the rips, and turned it in.

She aced the class, and when Mark went to pick her up at graduation
the instructors quizzed him for an hour about homeschooling, saying
they'd *never* seen anyone with the kind of learning abilities Jody
had evidenced. They've asked her to come back many times since then
to help train others. I hope someday she takes them up on the offer,
as it's a pretty awesome place and a wonderful group of people to
work with.

Helen (yeah, proud mama <g>)

[email protected]

I know I'm late responding to this. I'm way backlogged on e-mail.

I'm still a very green, trying-to-find-my-way, let go kind of unschooler. (I
probably couldn't even call myself that yet...but I hope to be there)

Anyway, I'm going to say in advance that I have a lot of questions and doubts
of my own related to unschooling. And I really feel like I need the advice
from folks on this list about some of those questions. So, I want to make a
disclaimer in the beginning and state that I am not trying to intentionally
come on this list and challenge any of you. I am truly trying to learn.

So here goes...

This is about the issue of children being forced to do certain activities,
etc.
I happen to have a couple of children who are very cautious and very
unwilling to try new things. And yet, when they have been gently pushed into
some of these things, they find out that they love them. My eldest daughter,
for example, has a lovely voice and loves to sing. There was a show choir
she could be in and my hubby and I really kind of pushed her to do it because
we felt she needed the social stimulation. It was a difficult first six
months and she had her ups and downs. We let her skip rehearsals and
performances and didn't push her to sign up again for another year. She did
all by herself, though, and now in her second year, this is the top priority
in her life and something she totally "lives for" each week. Besides that,
she has made several good friends in the group.

I just wonder-if we wouldn't have "pushed" her, would she have even known
that this opportunity existed? Or probably she would have come around to it
on her own, right? This is where the trust comes in, isn't it? I've got to
trust that she can find what she needs when she needs it. But I can
certainly offer resources. That's how I envision my role, as a mentor or a
resource person if she asks. Is that the idea? I know I'm asking lots of
questions, but I'm just craving some enlightenment! Enlighten me, please!
How do I let go?

Thanks!

The questioner...
Caro


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Fetteroll

on 4/14/02 11:29 PM, Burkfamily@... at Burkfamily@... wrote:

> I've got to
> trust that she can find what she needs when she needs it. But I can
> certainly offer resources. That's how I envision my role, as a mentor or a
> resource person if she asks. Is that the idea?

That's my idea too :-)

Sometimes it helps to picture your husband doing to you whatever you feel is
necessary to do to your child. Would you want him to spend 6 months urging
you to keep going to something? Would the fact that you ended up liking it
justify his coercion?

I think going twice is enough. My daughter thinks once :-)

Yes, I think she'll miss out on some things if she makes the decision after
trying something (that she chose to do on her own) once. But the world is
full of opportunities and that one thing won't make or break her life.

If I suggest giving a movie 15 minutes and she decides she doesn't like it
after that 15 mintues but the next 15 minutes would have turned her around
and it would have turned out to be one of her favorite movies, well, oh
well! There's *lots* of movies in the world! And she has *lots* of life left
to perhaps get past that first 15 minutes some time in the future. Because
*if* I push her that extra 15 minutes and I'm *wrong* the damage is far
worse than if she misses out on something.

Every time she makes a decision, she's learning more about herself and
learning more about making decisions. :-)

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/2002 9:24:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Burkfamily@... writes:


> I just wonder-if we wouldn't have "pushed" her, would she have even known
> that this opportunity existed? Or probably she would have come around to
> it
> on her own, right?

You know, LOTS of wonderful things happen by serendipity. But not everything
will happen that way. If your child has a lovely voice and LOVES to sing and
you think she'd love to sing in a group, it would seem to me to be a kind and
thoughtful thing for you, who love her, to find such a group for her. And if
your daughter is slow to warm up to things, but you know from past experience
that she WILL warm up and really appreciate you urging her on - then you know
that and she knows that and its part of the parent/child dance you have with
each other.

Heck, I have to persuade my dear delightful and darling husband to do things,
very very often. He has a personality type that usually makes him turn down
invitations and opportunities right off the bat - I figure that's one of the
reasons he MARRIED me in the first place, so that he'd have someone to push
him out of his comfort zone once in a while. I'm thoughtful as I can be about
what I drag him to <G>, and he almost always is very grateful.

--pam


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/15/2002 9:17:55 AM Central Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> <<Every time she makes a decision, she's learning more about herself and
> learning more about making decisions. :-)>>


Yes, I see this with her. I always used to think you had to "teach" kids the
value of wise decisions. But, they teach themselves better. Just recently,
this same child made the decision to quit piano lessons after almost eight
years with the same teacher. The teacher, who had always been kind and warm,
was very angry and cold to my daughter. It was extremely hard for my dd, but
she was firm and decisive and stuck by her desire to take voice lessons
instead. All I could think of was WOW...I wish I had had that kind of
determination at fifteen.

Thanks for your comments, Joyce and all.

Caro

>
>




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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/15/2002 12:20:28 PM Central Daylight Time,
PSoroosh@... writes:


> <<Heck, I have to persuade my dear delightful and darling husband to do
> things,
> very very often. He has a personality type that usually makes him turn down
> invitations and opportunities right off the bat - I figure that's one of
> the
> reasons he MARRIED me in the first place, so that he'd have someone to push
> him out of his comfort zone once in a while. I'm thoughtful as I can be
> about
> what I drag him to <G>, and he almost always is very grateful.>>


Sounds like my dh, too! Maybe we could PUSH them together for some
socializing! <VBG>

Caro

>
>




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