Re: Andrea Yates
Julie Stauffer
<<she would be on a psych ward>>
Not by Texas law.
In Texas, you can be psychotic and still legally sane. To be legally insane
here, you must be unable to tell that your actions were wrong. By calling
the police, Mrs. Yates indicated that she was aware her actions needed to be
reported.
In Houston a few years ago, a man took quite a few school children
"hostage". It came out that he believed the school was a prison camp and
that children were being kept there against their will. He was attempting
to "liberate" them. By Texas law, he was legally insane.
The thinking behind the law is that being psychotic is not a protection
against being criminal.
Julie
Not by Texas law.
In Texas, you can be psychotic and still legally sane. To be legally insane
here, you must be unable to tell that your actions were wrong. By calling
the police, Mrs. Yates indicated that she was aware her actions needed to be
reported.
In Houston a few years ago, a man took quite a few school children
"hostage". It came out that he believed the school was a prison camp and
that children were being kept there against their will. He was attempting
to "liberate" them. By Texas law, he was legally insane.
The thinking behind the law is that being psychotic is not a protection
against being criminal.
Julie
Joseph Fuerst
By calling
believed she needed to drown the children in order to save them from being
corrupt in this world. So despite the fact that she realized that "in this
reality" she must report her actions, seems she was trying to honor the
voices telling her to give her children salvation by releasing them from
...their corrupt human nature...I guess.
Russell was interviewed on Oprah (no, I don't watch regularly ;-) ) He
seems very detatched....but hey, maybe he needs to be, who knows how one
would act when thrust in the public eye by such a bizzare cicumstance.
The wierdest (to me) thing I caught was something about how he'd spent 18
yrs with his little children and he wanted to remember and appreciate that.
I think he added thier lifetimes together or something (7 + 5 + 3 + 2 +
1/2.....I'm approximating here) I thought it waas strange to see it that
way ..... To me he's been involved with his offspring for 7 yrs.
Susan.....if I thought hat way, I'd have 22 yrs experience as a
parent.......wierd, eldest here is 10.
> the police, Mrs. Yates indicated that she was aware her actions needed tobe
> reported.But she reports to a "higher Authority"....I thought I'd read that she
>
believed she needed to drown the children in order to save them from being
corrupt in this world. So despite the fact that she realized that "in this
reality" she must report her actions, seems she was trying to honor the
voices telling her to give her children salvation by releasing them from
...their corrupt human nature...I guess.
Russell was interviewed on Oprah (no, I don't watch regularly ;-) ) He
seems very detatched....but hey, maybe he needs to be, who knows how one
would act when thrust in the public eye by such a bizzare cicumstance.
The wierdest (to me) thing I caught was something about how he'd spent 18
yrs with his little children and he wanted to remember and appreciate that.
I think he added thier lifetimes together or something (7 + 5 + 3 + 2 +
1/2.....I'm approximating here) I thought it waas strange to see it that
way ..... To me he's been involved with his offspring for 7 yrs.
Susan.....if I thought hat way, I'd have 22 yrs experience as a
parent.......wierd, eldest here is 10.
Carol & Mac
Wierder still......
Carol
> The wierdest (to me) thing I caught was something about how he'd spent 18I'd have 65 years experience even though I'm only 50 years old!!!
> yrs with his little children and he wanted to remember and appreciate
> that.
> I think he added thier lifetimes together or something (7 + 5 + 3 + 2 +
> 1/2.....I'm approximating here) I thought it waas strange to see it
> that
> way ..... To me he's been involved with his offspring for 7 yrs.
>
> Susan.....if I thought hat way, I'd have 22 yrs experience as a
> parent.......wierd, eldest here is 10.
Carol
[email protected]
-=-To me he's been involved with his offspring for 7 yrs.-=-
Not involved enough, I think!
It was creepy to read that she had marked the Bible passages about her duty
to discipline her children, or whatever. That's big on some of the Christian
homeschooling sites. That God will punish parents who fail to chastise their
children. They justify spankings and (light) beatings (with dowels) by
saying if they DON'T do it they're not obeying God.
Sandra
Not involved enough, I think!
It was creepy to read that she had marked the Bible passages about her duty
to discipline her children, or whatever. That's big on some of the Christian
homeschooling sites. That God will punish parents who fail to chastise their
children. They justify spankings and (light) beatings (with dowels) by
saying if they DON'T do it they're not obeying God.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>-=-To me he's been involved with his offspring for 7 yrs.-=-I saw in one article that he's going to continue supporting Andrea, but
>
>Not involved enough, I think!
he's going to have to get on with his life now. Wanta bet he's married
again within the year?
He also missed out on Andrea's sentencing (and his own jury duty) because
he was flying across the country to be on two different talk shows. You'd
think he'd want to be there to find out what was going to happen to her.
Tia
>It was creepy to read that she had marked the Bible passages about her dutyNo one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
>to discipline her children, or whatever. That's big on some of the Christian
>homeschooling sites. That God will punish parents who fail to chastise their
>children. They justify spankings and (light) beatings (with dowels) by
>saying if they DON'T do it they're not obeying God.
>
>Sandra
>
>
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Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Buttons
> In Houston a few years ago, a man took quite a few school childrenattempting
> "hostage". It came out that he believed the school was a prison camp and
> that children were being kept there against their will. He was
> to "liberate" them. By Texas law, he was legally insane.I don't know about this specific situation except what you wrote but I
could relate to that (school/prison). We pass by the "schools" and there's
not much difference (to me) except the razor wire :-(
Buttons
Kara Bauer
That God will punish parents who fail to chastise their
children. They justify spankings and (light) beatings (with dowels) by
saying if they DON'T do it they're not obeying God.>>
Well there is an issue I won't touch with a ten foot pole :) However, did anyone see him on Oprah today? It was very 'odd', and that is the only word there was for it. He has no emotions at all. It was kind of creepy to me.
KaraGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
children. They justify spankings and (light) beatings (with dowels) by
saying if they DON'T do it they're not obeying God.>>
Well there is an issue I won't touch with a ten foot pole :) However, did anyone see him on Oprah today? It was very 'odd', and that is the only word there was for it. He has no emotions at all. It was kind of creepy to me.
KaraGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
Psychotic episodes are not infinite, they can be finite and at the end of
said episode the person will know that what they did during the episode was
wrong or that help was needed.
Her episode was no different in that she felt that she had to protect the
children and that is what her voices were telling her.
The difference is that she has the misfortune of being a woman in Texas
where they merrily kill off the insane and mentally retarded on a regular
basis.
All of which does not negate the fact that the father was culpable and
criminally negligent with regards to the safety of those children. Nor does
it negate the malpractice of the doctor.
Lynda
said episode the person will know that what they did during the episode was
wrong or that help was needed.
Her episode was no different in that she felt that she had to protect the
children and that is what her voices were telling her.
The difference is that she has the misfortune of being a woman in Texas
where they merrily kill off the insane and mentally retarded on a regular
basis.
All of which does not negate the fact that the father was culpable and
criminally negligent with regards to the safety of those children. Nor does
it negate the malpractice of the doctor.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:13 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Andrea Yates
> <<she would be on a psych ward>>
>
> Not by Texas law.
>
> In Texas, you can be psychotic and still legally sane. To be legally
insane
> here, you must be unable to tell that your actions were wrong. By calling
> the police, Mrs. Yates indicated that she was aware her actions needed to
be
> reported.
>
> In Houston a few years ago, a man took quite a few school children
> "hostage". It came out that he believed the school was a prison camp and
> that children were being kept there against their will. He was attempting
> to "liberate" them. By Texas law, he was legally insane.
>
> The thinking behind the law is that being psychotic is not a protection
> against being criminal.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Lynda
What I find very strange is how few stations do any interviews with her
family who are absolutely livid over his actions.
Lynda, who doesn't want to even think of using his math because the numbers
come out in the hundreds!
family who are absolutely livid over his actions.
Lynda, who doesn't want to even think of using his math because the numbers
come out in the hundreds!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Andrea Yates
> By calling
> > the police, Mrs. Yates indicated that she was aware her actions needed
to
> be
> > reported.
> >
> But she reports to a "higher Authority"....I thought I'd read that she
> believed she needed to drown the children in order to save them from being
> corrupt in this world. So despite the fact that she realized that "in
this
> reality" she must report her actions, seems she was trying to honor the
> voices telling her to give her children salvation by releasing them from
> ...their corrupt human nature...I guess.
>
> Russell was interviewed on Oprah (no, I don't watch regularly ;-) ) He
> seems very detatched....but hey, maybe he needs to be, who knows how one
> would act when thrust in the public eye by such a bizzare cicumstance.
> The wierdest (to me) thing I caught was something about how he'd spent 18
> yrs with his little children and he wanted to remember and appreciate
that.
> I think he added thier lifetimes together or something (7 + 5 + 3 + 2 +
> 1/2.....I'm approximating here) I thought it waas strange to see it
that
> way ..... To me he's been involved with his offspring for 7 yrs.
>
> Susan.....if I thought hat way, I'd have 22 yrs experience as a
> parent.......wierd, eldest here is 10.
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
[email protected]
I saw the interview by Oprah with the father. To me, it seems that he did
all he could to help her. He trusted the doctors opinion and they never said
she was a threat to her children. She probably did not tell the doctors all
that she was thinking for fear they would come and take her children away.
She probably thought she could handle everything. Her mother in law was
staying with her and had been every day for a couple of months. She was
getting better so the mother in law started coming an hour later in the
morning. That is when the tragedy happened. I feel sorry beyond belief for
those precious children. But, I feel sorry for the parents too because they
got lost in a system that was supposed to help them.
Mary
all he could to help her. He trusted the doctors opinion and they never said
she was a threat to her children. She probably did not tell the doctors all
that she was thinking for fear they would come and take her children away.
She probably thought she could handle everything. Her mother in law was
staying with her and had been every day for a couple of months. She was
getting better so the mother in law started coming an hour later in the
morning. That is when the tragedy happened. I feel sorry beyond belief for
those precious children. But, I feel sorry for the parents too because they
got lost in a system that was supposed to help them.
Mary
Bonni Sollars
I read in a book that it was King Solomon who advocated spanking. His
son grew up to be a harsh ruler who caused the kindom to divide because
of it. You don't find spanking any where else in the Bible. In fact,
Jesus said not to rule over people but to serve everyone. Also, even
Solomon taught to use a rod, which was like a thin, flexible stick that
holds mylar baloons at the store. It is meant to sting, but cannot
physically harm the child like a bigger, rigid stick or a paddle. Of
course, there is no where it says you have to spank in the Bible. I
know, I read it every day. In fact, it seems to never really say an
absolute in the proverbs. Proverbs is just a book of things to think
about, that usually apply abstractly to things in life. For instance, it
says stripes of a friend are faithful- that's not literally true. People
don't spank their friends, they use words to confront things that they
see as wrong. So it's often figurative. And the scripture about saving
your child from hell has to do with it's better for him to get a spanking
now for rebelling than to later become a criminal who kills and steals.
The idea of hell being the grave, or dying an early death due to wrong
behavior. Of course, it also implies the idea of defying your parents
and getting away with it may lead to defying God without remedy. It says
in the New Testament to not make your kids mad by provoking them, but
instead to instruct and correct them respectfully. Also, in other places
in the Bible, the rod implies the one shepherds used to guide their sheep
to keep them from going over a cliff and as a visual aid so their sheep
would know where the shepherd was-not something to beat the sheep with.
In fact, other scriptures villify the shepherds who beat their sheep.
The New Testament teaches that we are no longer under the law, but under
grace. We are no longer to be getting in trouble by God, but free to
have a relationship with God of love, forgiveness and acceptance. That
should describe a Christian's relationship with one's children, since we
are supposed to be examples to them of God's nature. Okay, now I'm done.
Bonni
son grew up to be a harsh ruler who caused the kindom to divide because
of it. You don't find spanking any where else in the Bible. In fact,
Jesus said not to rule over people but to serve everyone. Also, even
Solomon taught to use a rod, which was like a thin, flexible stick that
holds mylar baloons at the store. It is meant to sting, but cannot
physically harm the child like a bigger, rigid stick or a paddle. Of
course, there is no where it says you have to spank in the Bible. I
know, I read it every day. In fact, it seems to never really say an
absolute in the proverbs. Proverbs is just a book of things to think
about, that usually apply abstractly to things in life. For instance, it
says stripes of a friend are faithful- that's not literally true. People
don't spank their friends, they use words to confront things that they
see as wrong. So it's often figurative. And the scripture about saving
your child from hell has to do with it's better for him to get a spanking
now for rebelling than to later become a criminal who kills and steals.
The idea of hell being the grave, or dying an early death due to wrong
behavior. Of course, it also implies the idea of defying your parents
and getting away with it may lead to defying God without remedy. It says
in the New Testament to not make your kids mad by provoking them, but
instead to instruct and correct them respectfully. Also, in other places
in the Bible, the rod implies the one shepherds used to guide their sheep
to keep them from going over a cliff and as a visual aid so their sheep
would know where the shepherd was-not something to beat the sheep with.
In fact, other scriptures villify the shepherds who beat their sheep.
The New Testament teaches that we are no longer under the law, but under
grace. We are no longer to be getting in trouble by God, but free to
have a relationship with God of love, forgiveness and acceptance. That
should describe a Christian's relationship with one's children, since we
are supposed to be examples to them of God's nature. Okay, now I'm done.
Bonni
[email protected]
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:58:59 EST Unschoolingmommy@... writes:
her to be but back on antipsychotic medication, he'd had her hospitalized
at least twice, his mother had come out to stay with her and help with
the kids for a long period. It sounded to me like he was lulled into
believing the "experts" because he just didn't know what else to do. The
"charismatic religious leader" they followed for a time seemed almost
cult-ish, and thinking on his own seemed like something he wasn't really
comfortable or experienced in doing. No one - including the father - ever
believed she'd hurt the children. I imagine he worried that she probably
wouldn't be cooking great meals or interacting much with them, but he
thought they would be safe and really didn't know where else to turn to
get help.
Dar
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> I feel sorry beyondExactly. The father has taken her to shrink after shrink, he'd asked for
> belief for
> those precious children. But, I feel sorry for the parents too
> because they
> got lost in a system that was supposed to help them.
her to be but back on antipsychotic medication, he'd had her hospitalized
at least twice, his mother had come out to stay with her and help with
the kids for a long period. It sounded to me like he was lulled into
believing the "experts" because he just didn't know what else to do. The
"charismatic religious leader" they followed for a time seemed almost
cult-ish, and thinking on his own seemed like something he wasn't really
comfortable or experienced in doing. No one - including the father - ever
believed she'd hurt the children. I imagine he worried that she probably
wouldn't be cooking great meals or interacting much with them, but he
thought they would be safe and really didn't know where else to turn to
get help.
Dar
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Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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Joseph Fuerst
> I'd have 65 years experience even though I'm only 50 years old!!!hee hee :-)
>
> Carol
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/21/02 12:56:48 AM, lurine@... writes:
<< Nor does
it negate the malpractice of the doctor. >>
The husband defended having more children by saying their counselor had not
"forbidden it." The counselor said she had recommended against it. (She,
I think a she... I was reading it.)
I would hate for the door to be opened for doctors to forbid people to have
children. Already too many people take doctors' recommendations as commands
(as in "My doctor says I can't breastfeed" or "My doctor won't let me...
"whatever).
Maybe you meant another doctor.
Sandra
<< Nor does
it negate the malpractice of the doctor. >>
The husband defended having more children by saying their counselor had not
"forbidden it." The counselor said she had recommended against it. (She,
I think a she... I was reading it.)
I would hate for the door to be opened for doctors to forbid people to have
children. Already too many people take doctors' recommendations as commands
(as in "My doctor says I can't breastfeed" or "My doctor won't let me...
"whatever).
Maybe you meant another doctor.
Sandra
Cindy
SandraDodd@... wrote:
The doctor who made the recommendation against any more children was a woman
and one she had seen a couple of years ago. And one who really helped her.
The last doctor she saw discharged her from the hospital because she could
feed and bathe herself. He also took her off her medication (Haldol or
something like that) over her objections. She knew it was helping her.
A few days after her prescription ran out she killed the children. That
doctor is a man and IMO should be on trial with her as an accessory to
the murders.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>Yes, she did.
> In a message dated 3/21/02 12:56:48 AM, lurine@... writes:
>
> << Nor does
> it negate the malpractice of the doctor. >>
>
> The husband defended having more children by saying their counselor had not
> "forbidden it." The counselor said she had recommended against it. (She,
> I think a she... I was reading it.)
>
> I would hate for the door to be opened for doctors to forbid people to have
> children. Already too many people take doctors' recommendations as commands
> (as in "My doctor says I can't breastfeed" or "My doctor won't let me...
> "whatever).
>
> Maybe you meant another doctor.
>
The doctor who made the recommendation against any more children was a woman
and one she had seen a couple of years ago. And one who really helped her.
The last doctor she saw discharged her from the hospital because she could
feed and bathe herself. He also took her off her medication (Haldol or
something like that) over her objections. She knew it was helping her.
A few days after her prescription ran out she killed the children. That
doctor is a man and IMO should be on trial with her as an accessory to
the murders.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Joseph Fuerst
> -=-To me he's been involved with his offspring for 7 yrs.-=-Ain't that the truth!
>
> Not involved enough, I think!
>
> It was creepy to read that she had marked the Bible passages about herduty
> to discipline her children, or whatever. That's big on some of theChristian
> homeschooling sites. That God will punish parents who fail to chastisetheir
> children. They justify spankings and (light) beatings (with dowels) byI hadn't read that.....it is creepy - to say the least. I have to wonder
> saying if they DON'T do it they're not obeying God.
>
> Sandra
>
about some of the "family values" Russel and Andrea held. Imagine these
ideas being fed and nourished in someone with a mental illness. At some
point the thinking is that she becomes delusional....I wonder if it has
something to do with being held to this type of standard in parenting (i.e.,
that "good" parents must cause pain to their children in order to "teach"
and discipline them.)
Joseph Fuerst
> I saw in one article that he's going to continue supporting Andrea, butIf he can find a vulnerable, gullbible woman he can 'control'.....would be
> he's going to have to get on with his life now. Wanta bet he's married
> again within the year?
>
my guess. Unfortunately, there are plenty out there.
And don't forget the baby that will be on the way.
Susan
Stacy Finch
I haven't read all of the posts, probably. I am a couple of digests behind,
but wanted to go ahead and put in my two cents.
I think her husband is still in shock and denial. Oprah spoke briefly about
the stages of grief. He thinks he has accepted it and moved on. My thought
while watching him yesterday is either he will fall apart several months
down the road. Or he will be totally immersed in another relationship and
not have dealt with the tragedy.
They had a clip on her family. They are obviously in the anger and blaming
stage of grief. It would be difficult not to go there during the grieving
process.
I hope he gets there at some point. It's important to complete all the steps
of grieving.
Stacy
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
but wanted to go ahead and put in my two cents.
I think her husband is still in shock and denial. Oprah spoke briefly about
the stages of grief. He thinks he has accepted it and moved on. My thought
while watching him yesterday is either he will fall apart several months
down the road. Or he will be totally immersed in another relationship and
not have dealt with the tragedy.
They had a clip on her family. They are obviously in the anger and blaming
stage of grief. It would be difficult not to go there during the grieving
process.
I hope he gets there at some point. It's important to complete all the steps
of grieving.
Stacy
_________________________________________________________________
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Kara Bauer
it is creepy - to say the least. I have to wonder
about some of the "family values" Russel and Andrea held. Imagine these
ideas being fed and nourished in someone with a mental illness. >>
One of the things that bothered me the most was that even after it was recommended she not have anymore by doctor and psychiatrist, *his feeling was that they would continue to have as many as God gave them... HELLO! That and after watching Oprah, the man doesn't have one emotion, it was very unnerving and I just don't believe him.
The last thing I found interesting is that her entire family has gone against now publicly...
KaraGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
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about some of the "family values" Russel and Andrea held. Imagine these
ideas being fed and nourished in someone with a mental illness. >>
One of the things that bothered me the most was that even after it was recommended she not have anymore by doctor and psychiatrist, *his feeling was that they would continue to have as many as God gave them... HELLO! That and after watching Oprah, the man doesn't have one emotion, it was very unnerving and I just don't believe him.
The last thing I found interesting is that her entire family has gone against now publicly...
KaraGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
That is a contradition of the testimony at the trial. A friend and her
family were coming by and she was bathing or eating right. They asked him
to have her committed again.
I think he lives in a world that he created and doesn't choose to see
anything else.
As to getting caught in a system, he made the choose to have more children
against the advise of doctors. That is not getting caught in the system.
Lynda
family were coming by and she was bathing or eating right. They asked him
to have her committed again.
I think he lives in a world that he created and doesn't choose to see
anything else.
As to getting caught in a system, he made the choose to have more children
against the advise of doctors. That is not getting caught in the system.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <Unschoolingmommy@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Andrea Yates
> I saw the interview by Oprah with the father. To me, it seems that he did
> all he could to help her. He trusted the doctors opinion and they never
said
> she was a threat to her children. She probably did not tell the doctors
all
> that she was thinking for fear they would come and take her children away.
> She probably thought she could handle everything. Her mother in law was
> staying with her and had been every day for a couple of months. She was
> getting better so the mother in law started coming an hour later in the
> morning. That is when the tragedy happened. I feel sorry beyond belief
for
> those precious children. But, I feel sorry for the parents too because
they
> got lost in a system that was supposed to help them.
>
> Mary
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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Lynda
the shrinks and the medical doc (it is in the medical records) recommended
that she not have more children because the ppd and pyschosis was
progressive. They gave them the % and "strongly recommend that Andrea have
no further children."
According to her family, the father made the decision along with the "cult
leader" they were seeing and she was coerced into having more children, "the
Bible says, blah, blah, blah" and "a good Christian would, blah, blah, blah"
as a means of forcing into getting pregnant again.
The malpractice comes in with the last shrink she was seeing. The norm is
to reduce psych drugs, not go cold turkey, particularly when the husband and
several family members have told the shrink that she is as bad if not worse
than she was when she was admitted to the psych unit after her last
pregnancy.
Not only did he delete a med, he did not prescribe anything to replace it.
He was asked to give her the shots that had helped her before. He refused.
He was asked to admit her to the psych unit, he refused.
Had he done as requested or followed normally accepted medical procedures
those children would still be alive.
Lynda
that she not have more children because the ppd and pyschosis was
progressive. They gave them the % and "strongly recommend that Andrea have
no further children."
According to her family, the father made the decision along with the "cult
leader" they were seeing and she was coerced into having more children, "the
Bible says, blah, blah, blah" and "a good Christian would, blah, blah, blah"
as a means of forcing into getting pregnant again.
The malpractice comes in with the last shrink she was seeing. The norm is
to reduce psych drugs, not go cold turkey, particularly when the husband and
several family members have told the shrink that she is as bad if not worse
than she was when she was admitted to the psych unit after her last
pregnancy.
Not only did he delete a med, he did not prescribe anything to replace it.
He was asked to give her the shots that had helped her before. He refused.
He was asked to admit her to the psych unit, he refused.
Had he done as requested or followed normally accepted medical procedures
those children would still be alive.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Andrea Yates
>
> In a message dated 3/21/02 12:56:48 AM, lurine@... writes:
>
> << Nor does
> it negate the malpractice of the doctor. >>
>
> The husband defended having more children by saying their counselor had
not
> "forbidden it." The counselor said she had recommended against it.
(She,
> I think a she... I was reading it.)
>
> I would hate for the door to be opened for doctors to forbid people to
have
> children. Already too many people take doctors' recommendations as
commands
> (as in "My doctor says I can't breastfeed" or "My doctor won't let me...
> "whatever).
>
> Maybe you meant another doctor.
>
> Sandra
>
>
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Lynda
Oops, typing too fast. She was NOT bathing and eating.
Lynda
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Andrea Yates
> That is a contradition of the testimony at the trial. A friend and her
> family were coming by and she was bathing or eating right. They asked him
> to have her committed again.
>
> I think he lives in a world that he created and doesn't choose to see
> anything else.
>
> As to getting caught in a system, he made the choose to have more children
> against the advise of doctors. That is not getting caught in the system.
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Unschoolingmommy@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 6:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Andrea Yates
>
>
> > I saw the interview by Oprah with the father. To me, it seems that he
did
> > all he could to help her. He trusted the doctors opinion and they never
> said
> > she was a threat to her children. She probably did not tell the doctors
> all
> > that she was thinking for fear they would come and take her children
away.
> > She probably thought she could handle everything. Her mother in law
was
> > staying with her and had been every day for a couple of months. She was
> > getting better so the mother in law started coming an hour later in the
> > morning. That is when the tragedy happened. I feel sorry beyond belief
> for
> > those precious children. But, I feel sorry for the parents too because
> they
> > got lost in a system that was supposed to help them.
> >
> > Mary
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
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> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
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>
Honored Babies
>I think her husband is still in shock and denial. Oprah spoke briefly aboutStages of grief??? Hahahahahahahahahahaha...
>the stages of grief.
There is a woman in Canada working on her Psych doctorate who is doing a
paper basically on dispelling that myth.
>I hope he gets there at some point. It's important to complete all the steps~Paula
>of grieving.
Bonni Sollars
Paula, Please explain why you don't believe there are the stages of
grief.
I am very curious to know, since I actually do help a lot of people and
wouldn't want to encourage them with a lie, if I knew a better truth.
Bonni
grief.
I am very curious to know, since I actually do help a lot of people and
wouldn't want to encourage them with a lie, if I knew a better truth.
Bonni
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/21/02 11:58:06 PM, bacwoodz@... writes:
<< I often have a problem when the media describes people such as Yates as
"Christian" or how about the headline "Homeschooling mother kills children" -
it almost implies that homeschooling or Christianity had something to do with
it. >>
I think in her case both homeschooling and Christianity did have something to
do with it.
And if people want to say "NO, it was entirely just because she was crazy,"
do we want the fallout of the thought that the insanity made her homeschool
or be Christian?
Sandra
<< I often have a problem when the media describes people such as Yates as
"Christian" or how about the headline "Homeschooling mother kills children" -
it almost implies that homeschooling or Christianity had something to do with
it. >>
I think in her case both homeschooling and Christianity did have something to
do with it.
And if people want to say "NO, it was entirely just because she was crazy,"
do we want the fallout of the thought that the insanity made her homeschool
or be Christian?
Sandra
Katy Clark
You call knocking her up three more times after the doctors specifically told him that Andrea should not have any more children, that her psychosis would only escalate with each pregnancy helping her? I'm sure she appreciated the help!! Her family told the media that they offered to help Andrea but Russell told them no, that she had to handle things on her own. It sounds like they were both mentally unstable!! She drowned those children--she's guilty and should be punished, but he was no saint and should be right there beside her as an accessory to murder.
How much do you want to bet that before this year is over he'll be married to anther sweet young thang whom he'll keep tied to the kitchen table. He makes me sick.
Unschoolingmommy@... wrote: I saw the interview by Oprah with the father. To me, it seems that he did
all he could to help her. He trusted the doctors opinion and they never said
she was a threat to her children. She probably did not tell the doctors all
that she was thinking for fear they would come and take her children away.
She probably thought she could handle everything. Her mother in law was
staying with her and had been every day for a couple of months. She was
getting better so the mother in law started coming an hour later in the
morning. That is when the tragedy happened. I feel sorry beyond belief for
those precious children. But, I feel sorry for the parents too because they
got lost in a system that was supposed to help them.
Mary
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How much do you want to bet that before this year is over he'll be married to anther sweet young thang whom he'll keep tied to the kitchen table. He makes me sick.
Unschoolingmommy@... wrote: I saw the interview by Oprah with the father. To me, it seems that he did
all he could to help her. He trusted the doctors opinion and they never said
she was a threat to her children. She probably did not tell the doctors all
that she was thinking for fear they would come and take her children away.
She probably thought she could handle everything. Her mother in law was
staying with her and had been every day for a couple of months. She was
getting better so the mother in law started coming an hour later in the
morning. That is when the tragedy happened. I feel sorry beyond belief for
those precious children. But, I feel sorry for the parents too because they
got lost in a system that was supposed to help them.
Mary
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http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
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Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia. --- Charles Schultz
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards�
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joseph Fuerst
You make a good point here, Mary. The mental "health" system is really in
a bad way these days. I know the horrible ordeal I went through to get
insurance approval to see a psychologist regarding our the 6 yr old. Ours
was not near a desperate situation.....had it been, I'm afraid the process
of getting approved may have driven me over the edge...and by the time we
jumped through the hoops and got to the appointment, it would have been too
late. In our case, the issues had been resolved almost cy the time of our
initial appointment.
I though so much during that period about how people with deeper
problems may not survive this process. For us, the issues were basically
situational......new baby, exhausted mom, led to flare-ups with 6 yr olds
medical problems, then the mental aspects of us dealing with it.
Susan
a bad way these days. I know the horrible ordeal I went through to get
insurance approval to see a psychologist regarding our the 6 yr old. Ours
was not near a desperate situation.....had it been, I'm afraid the process
of getting approved may have driven me over the edge...and by the time we
jumped through the hoops and got to the appointment, it would have been too
late. In our case, the issues had been resolved almost cy the time of our
initial appointment.
I though so much during that period about how people with deeper
problems may not survive this process. For us, the issues were basically
situational......new baby, exhausted mom, led to flare-ups with 6 yr olds
medical problems, then the mental aspects of us dealing with it.
Susan
> I saw the interview by Oprah with the father. To me, it seems that he didsaid
> all he could to help her. He trusted the doctors opinion and they never
> she was a threat to her children. She probably did not tell the doctorsall
> that she was thinking for fear they would come and take her children away.for
> She probably thought she could handle everything. Her mother in law was
> staying with her and had been every day for a couple of months. She was
> getting better so the mother in law started coming an hour later in the
> morning. That is when the tragedy happened. I feel sorry beyond belief
> those precious children. But, I feel sorry for the parents too becausethey
> got lost in a system that was supposed to help them.
>
> Mary
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Joseph Fuerst
> All of which does not negate the fact that the father was culpable anddoes
> criminally negligent with regards to the safety of those children. Nor
> it negate the malpractice of the doctor.I'm gonna have to disagree with this.
>
> Lynda
Living with a mentally ill person does not mean one knows how to manage the
person or situation well. From what has been made public, I see know
reason why Russell *should have* or *actually did* know the risks involved.
A counselor *may have* known the potential risk.
reminds me of a situation I once went through while at our local Alzheimer's
Association. A d-i-l explained a situation about her F-i-l with dementia,
who was living alone in a four apt bldg. He had been an electrician and
seemed to like to 'work on' the electrcal equipment for the bldg.
She absolutely did not see the danger. He still seemed proficient with
his tools....and often was.....however, she did not know "the illness" the
way I did. Even at the end, she wasn't completely convinced of the
potential danger, but trusted me enough to allow for my opinion and have
it checked out. She agreed to get an thorough medical exam
(hospitalization) and he was soon removed from the situation to a safe one.
I am still profoundly grateful that there was no bureacratic crap for
her to attain our services.....the outcome could have very likely been
different. But there are hardly any services 'out there' for people
these days.
Susan
Joseph Fuerst
>numbers
> Lynda, who doesn't want to even think of using his math because the
> come out in the hundreds!And isn't he an engineer? Perhaps he'd have done well as a statistician!
(Of the how to Lie with them sort)
Susan
Lynda
Or that homeschooling and Christianity caused her insanity?
Lynda
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Andrea Yates
>
> In a message dated 3/21/02 11:58:06 PM, bacwoodz@... writes:
>
> << I often have a problem when the media describes people such as Yates as
> "Christian" or how about the headline "Homeschooling mother kills
children" -
> it almost implies that homeschooling or Christianity had something to do
with
> it. >>
>
> I think in her case both homeschooling and Christianity did have something
to
> do with it.
>
> And if people want to say "NO, it was entirely just because she was
crazy,"
> do we want the fallout of the thought that the insanity made her
homeschool
> or be Christian?
>
> Sandra
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
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> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>