Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] sleep

Joseph Fuerst

30 Jan 2002, at 1:06pm

Speaking of sleep.....I noticed the discussion on allowing children to
determine bedtimes, etc. A few years back, I attended a wonderful
presentation by the director of the big Sleep Clinic in Cincinnati...can't
think of his name.
The seminar and presentation were terrific. He talked about "sleep
hygiene" and its importance to our general health and well-being.
I've been pondering this in relation to unschooling. I have one child
has always been sensitive to her tiredness signals, and respects them by
napping or going to bed. The other 3 are have what I call
"don't-want-to-miss-anything" syndrome....and get, well, unpleasant when
overtired.
I'm a firm believer in respecting a body's sleep needs and that getting
enpugh sleep can help with many other 'problems'....and that most people in
our society are not getting enough quality sleep.
Anybody's thoughts?
Susan

----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 12:17 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1785

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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 20 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: Kindness and META discussions
> From: "Bronwen" <felesina@...>
> 2. Parenting styles, choice and unschooled kids (was Re: Digest
Number 1783)
> From: "pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes" <djac99_1999@...>
> 3. Re: the magic of reading (maybe)
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> 4. Re: Digest Number 1784
> From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
> 5. Re: the magic of reading (maybe)
> From: Lorraine Goods <lg96@...>
> 6. Re: frustration
> From: "rumpleteasermom" <rumpleteasermom@...>
> 7. Re: introduction of Oakes Family
> From: parrishml@...
> 8. Re: Re: frustration
> From: Kolleen <Kolleen@...>
> 9. Re: Digest Number 1784
> From: "parrishmlus" <parrishml@...>
> 10. Re: FYI: bill HR 3598
> From: Cindy <crma@...>
> 11. Re: the magic of reading (maybe)
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> 12. Re: introduction of Oakes Family
> From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
> 13. Re: introduction of Oakes Family
> From: "parrishmlus" <parrishml@...>
> 14. Re: Parenting styles, choice and unschooled kids (was Re: Digest
Number 1783)
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> 15. Re: the magic of reading (maybe)
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> 16. Re: introduction of Oakes Family
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> 17. Re: the haves, the havenots and unschooling by definition
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> 18. Re: Subjects of substance WAS: new and inneed of support
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> 19. Re: Digest Number 1784
> From: "Joseph Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
> 20. Re: Digest Number 1784
> From: "Joseph Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:40:20 -0800
> From: "Bronwen" <felesina@...>
> Subject: Re: Kindness and META discussions
>
> HI!
>
> You asked about examples of what the moderators did on the other list
about meta discussions. It would go something like this:
>
> * poster explains an idea or question
>
> *bunch of posts come up to answer question, or give other ideas
>
> *someone writes something like "your reply to my post was snippy, all I
meant was ..." or "I take offense at your tone", or "I was hurt because you
seemed to dismiss me in your post"- these are all examples of writing *about
the writing*. the "style" of the post, the "rudeness" or whatever.
>
> *moderator would immediately post a reminder that the list has a no meta
discussion policy... messages of that nature can be e-mailed privately...
e-mail the moderator if you have questions..
>
> ANyway, I appreciated it because it did help us remember what you said
below- because this isnt the forum for bashing eachothers writing- it kept
us focused on sharing our ideas and giving the benefit of the doubt to those
posting.
>
> It is interesting, because in our homeschooling group this kind of came
up. I had been instramental in the formulating of a "conflict resolution"
policy for the group. The first rule was that if you had a "problem" or
"conflict" with someone (no matter what age) your first step is to approach
that person individually with your feelings. There is more..but anyway, a
big disgusting "thing" happened because certain "adults" in the group didnt
follow the policy- and it could have ALL been avoided.
>
> Anyway, this relates I think because for one, when you know you must
personally discuss things you have a problem with, they dont seem to be that
much of a problem-
>
> VERY much easier to sort of just yell out into cyber space "I was dissed!"
or talk in a private meeting with sympathisers about how "awful" the other
person is and how they think- when you havent even spoke to the person and
dont really understand them at all.
>
> Keeps you honest, "professional", keeps you thinking about and processing
what others say instead of lashing out- because if you are going to post
something, it has to relate to the actual discussion. There is no doubt
that things still get heated- but they generally dont get into the personal
attack realm.
>
> ANyway- there you go,
> Bronwen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Fetteroll
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 5:27 AM
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Kindness and META discussions
>
>
> For the first time I'm not going to quote anyone ;-) Because it applies
to
> everyone. Undoubtedly even me too! ;-) And I don't want to single anyone
> out. Or leave anyone feeling off the hook.
>
> I've been mulling over Bronwen's idea of no META discussions. I thought
> perhaps it would put a gag on discussions. But now I do notice a pattern
to
> the events leading up to a fight and it does seem to be discussions of
the
> discussion. For example:
>
> 1) Someone takes exception to the way something is expressed or someone
> takes exception to the boundaries someone sets (eg, that's not
unschooling)
>
> 2) The poster defends herself.
>
> 3) Others polarize into camps to defend the poster or the person who
felt
> attacked or the style of posting or what is and isn't rudeness and so
forth.
>
> Bronwen, can you tell us more about the policy? Do you have some of the
> email reminders that the moderators used or addresses where we can write
and
> ask them for examples they've used?
>
> The first step is "we" need to let go of the idea of there being a "we"
> here. "We" can't be kinder or blunter or more probing or huggier because
> "we" are a collection of always changing individuals. Each of us
deserves
> *trust* that she's communicating the way *she* feels is best, and
*trust*
> that if she doesn't feel she's acheiving *her own* goals of
communication
> (*whatever* they may be and *regardless* of what others think her goals
> *should* be) that she will learn from her mistakes.
>
> If some of us want a kinder list then the only way to acheive that is to
> *set an example*, *be* the tone of kindness, *NOT* the enforcer of a
certain
> standard of kindness. To be kind we can police our own selves *not* each
> other. We can't even police others who we feel aren't policing
themselves
> properly. (Shades of fundamentalism!) We have to *trust* that they can
read
> the moderator reminders as well as we can and can interpret them --
perhaps
> differently! -- but as well as we can. If we feel someone's being rude,
*let
> it go*. (Talk to the moderators. Let the moderators handle it. If
someone
> doesn't like the way the moderators are handling something then they can
> read any policies we come up with and discuss the *policies* not a
> particular poster.) We don't set an example of kindness by reprimanding
> those we feel are unkind.
>
> (Same with wanting a blunter list or more challenging list. We need to
> accept that not everyone likes blunt or probing or probing of newbies or
> whatever. If "this list" is less challenging than before is it the fault
of
> those who are responding the way *they* feel best or the fault of those
who
> *aren't* responding in ways they feel best? We need to *let go* of the
idea
> that the "best way" to help people get unschooling is to get them to
examine
> themselves. (Yes, even I'll have to let go of that! ;-) Some people feel
> it's best to lead gently. *They're entitled to that opinion* and
entitled to
> lead gently. Some people do want to be led gently. They're entitled to
go at
> the pace *they* feel is best. We have to *let it go* even if we don't
think
> the questioner is choosing what they need. It isn't unschooling to
decide
> that someone needs blunt questioning or self-examination. -- Or decide
they
> need gently led either! -- We have to trust that people coming here can
pick
> and choose from the approaches they're offered. Sometimes they *will*
get
> offended since some newbies will expect only gentle and I think it's up
to
> the moderators to send out an email about different posting styles and
the
> problems of interpretation of emails.)
>
> Though I can bet "we" will generally agree that "You're a sh*thead!" is
out
> of the realm of polite, each of us as individuals *will* have different
> ideas of what is and isn't polite or what is and isn't necessary to
discuss
> unschooling. And those levels will push other people's buttons.
Especially,
> unfortunately, newbies. Some people (the poster it's directed at or
> bystanders) *will* feel "That isn't unschooling" or "Why do you think
that?"
> is rude or unkind. We need to *trust* that the poster's intentions are
*not*
> unkindness and they are doing what they feel is best.
>
> I think, as a policy, it's best that if someone, even when it happens to
a
> newbie, has issue with the way someone has worded something, then it
should
> remain between the two posters. No one jump in to defend the newbie, the
> poster or the style of posting. If someone sees a problem, then alert a
> moderator. (Perhaps moderator email addresses should be included in the
> footer attached to posts.) And, as Bronwen said was done on the other
list,
> as soon as someone says they don't like the way something is worded, the
> moderators need to send out a private email and/or emails to the list
> depending on their discretion.
>
> *Perhaps* one problem with no META discussions is how can the list
discuss
> policy? I *don't* think setting policy is up to the moderators. I think
it's
> up to the users to decide and the moderators to act as reminders (and
> perhaps enforcers if it comes to that) of the *list's* wishes. (Or
Helen's
> wishes of course! But she seems to be of the policy that we can manage
to
> create what we need, not rely on her to create what she thinks we need.
> She's an unschooling kind of lady! :-) Perhaps if we want to discuss
changes
> in policy, we can write "Policy discussion" in the title of the post.
>
> Another problem I do see is that some discussions revolve around what is
and
> isn't unschooling and whether unschooling should be defined or not.
Being
> firmly in the camp that the definition or unschooling can't be watered
down
> or it will become synonymous with "do whatever's best for your family",
it's
> really hard for me to say that we need to let the newbies come in, hear
both
> *positions* in the argument and then decide for themselves. I think
there
> is something valuable in discussing the *idea* of whether unschooling
should
> be defined or not or whether defining it is limiting or clarifying, so
I'm
> not sure how such discussions can be allowed and still maintain a META
> policy. I think I need to think on that some more to see if I'm being
> objective enough or not ;-)
>
> So perhaps the moderators can have a few email reminders in their tool
bag:
>
> 1) No META discussions.
>
> 2) Definitions of unschooling (and perhaps some attitudes about defining
> unschooling.)
>
> 3) The problems of interpretation of emails and why it's a policy that
we
> assume no ill intent in posts. And then what channels there are for
> complaining about a particular poster.
>
> Well, I could probably come up some examples of the above to serve as
> starting points to be picked over but my daughter is asking for Nancy
Drew
> to be read and I've already been at this post for 2 hours so the
examples
> will have to wait. ;-)
>
> Joyce
>
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>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:00:36 -0000
> From: "pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes" <djac99_1999@...>
> Subject: Parenting styles, choice and unschooled kids (was Re: Digest
Number 1783)
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> > <<many unschooling parents seem to have kids that don't struggle
> with choice>>
> >
> Julie wrote: Think there might be some correlation there?
>
> Me: I do see that there could be a strong correlation, but the rest
> of your post clearly shows that there is a process involved. You
> spend time talking to your children and examining their decisions
> without forcing or coercing them to do what you think is best. Their
> decision making abilities didn't develop in a vacuum simply because
> they are unschooled. Your parenting style appears to be a great
> influence, and, from reading the messages here, I'm starting to see
> that one's parenting style cannot be divorced from unschooling.
>
> My two oldest children, by contrast, haven't been unschooled, but my
> 12yo daughter makes very responsible, classy choices for herself most
> of the time as well. This I attribute to my parenting style and her
> personality bent. My 12 yo son, on the other hand, does not make
> decisions that are in his best interest. His decisions have been a
> threat to his own safety and the safety of others, at times. Like
> you and your son, we spend a great deal of time talking him through
> the cause and effect of his actions, but he often doesn't "get it"
> until he has experienced a consequence that is painful for him. He
> has been this way since birth, it seems. Would unschooling/NCP change
> his personality bent,I wonder?
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:51:17 -0800
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> Subject: Re: the magic of reading (maybe)
>
>
> >
> >I am definitely not okay w/the idea of my kid not being able to read at
> >16. I think reading is a basic skill for survival in this society. My kid
> >is almost six and he is just starting to read. We do phonics stuff and
sound
> >games every day *at his request*. But even if he weren't into it, I'd
> >start "making him" at a later age. Not at the age he is now, but
certainly
> >by 10 or so. Yup, you betcha I would! It is the one thing I feel strongly
> >that he has to learn.
>
> Been there. Done that. It just slowed down his process of learning to
> read. And damaged our relationship to boot. I honestly think he would
> have read sooner and better if I'd left him alone about it.
>
> I also believe that there have always been and always will be some people
> who just aren't academically inclined, people who will always learn in
> other ways than reading. I don't think it's right to push these kids into
> an academic mold when they could well be the person who invents something
> really useful to our society or something. Edison eventually learned to
> read. If he'd been made to stay in school and learn academics, we would
> probably have missed out on a lot of useful inventions.
>
> My son is able to read what he *has* to, though slowly. I think his
> reading will still improve by the time he's ready to leave home, but if it
> doesn't, he's still going to be ok.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:51:02 -0600
> From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1784
>
> <<We use workbooks too only their used to earn money and other rewards>>
>
> Perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems you are saying that you pay your
kids
> money to do workbooks. That coupled with the information you posted about
> unschooling at home while your kids were in ps, leads me to question your
> understanding of unschooling.
>
> Unschooling isn't something done part time or occasionally. It is 24/7 of
> the child pursuing his own dreams and desires, not completing pages to get
> money.
>
> Again, perhaps I misunderstood.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:40:51 -0500 (EST)
> From: Lorraine Goods <lg96@...>
> Subject: Re: the magic of reading (maybe)
>
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Tia Leschke wrote:
>
> >
> > Been there. Done that. It just slowed down his process of learning to
> > read. And damaged our relationship to boot.
>
> It's been quite the opposite experience w/us. Our reading "lessons" are
> incorporated into our general read-aloud snuggle times and it's been a
> good experience for us. Of course, the kid has always been a book hog so I
> guess that has something to do w/it. We can literally spend the entire
> day reading aloud and he never tires of it; he's just always had a
> big love for books and that's why I guess he's so motivated.
>
> >I honestly think have read sooner and better if I'd left him alone about
it.
>
> You're probably right, and I'm glad you are taking a more laid back
> approach since it seems to be working for him. Obviously, kids are
> individuals and have their own learning styles -- just like we do.
>
> Best,
> Lynn
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:51:26 -0000
> From: "rumpleteasermom" <rumpleteasermom@...>
> Subject: Re: frustration
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes"
> <djac99_1999@y...> wrote:
> > After reading this board for several months, I can see that
> parental
> > attitudes go a long way toward a child developing the ability to
> > handle choices. I, personally, would like to see more written
> about
> > the process it took to help those kids get there - more written
> about
> > the work your Grandma talked about
>
> I'll give you an example from home. Rachel has depression problems
> and is on Prozac. She knows she feels better when her sleep schedule
> is patterned so that she is up during the day. She also knows that
> if she hangs out on the computer at night starts watching tv at
> night, she will be up all night. It's a pattern, she knows it, I
> know it, we all know it. The last time she got into a bad pattern,
> she wuld get royally mad if we left the house without her. We had
> numerous discussions about the fact that it is like waking the dead
> to get her up and we would give her one wake-up call and then be on
> our way from then on. She now understands it is her decision to get
> out of or stay in bed and has stopped going off on us if we leave
> without her.
> In other words, it's her choice. It does not matter if I want her up
> in the morning or not. But she had to learn to live peacefully with
> the consequences too. When she was going off on us for leaving her
> at home, I started making her get up when we went out. When she
> decided to stop getting mad at us, I started leaving her alone.
>
> Bridget
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:40:36 EST
> From: parrishml@...
> Subject: Re: introduction of Oakes Family
>
> Dorinda, your post was my ... biggest chuckle of the week! What an
> industrious "unschooling" family!
>
> Laura
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 02 18:35:45 -0500
> From: Kolleen <Kolleen@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: frustration
>
> >pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes wrote:
> >After reading this board for several months, I can see that parental
> >attitudes go a long way toward a child developing the ability to
> >handle choices. I, personally, would like to see more written about
> >the process it took to help those kids get there - more written about
> >the work your Grandma talked about
>
>
> 'Work' in the meaning that I wrote it is to be defined as 'not always
> taking the easier/faster way out' of a situation.
>
> This is most likely more physical when they are young, and more mental
> when they are older.
>
> For example: You got a load of laundry to fold. Your two year old wants
> to help (at that age they all want to help!). It would, of course, be
> faster if you did it yourself. But if you let your child help it, it will
> be more work for you to 'refold' and to find the ones they walked away
> with. But the lesson to them is worth your time and energy.
>
> As they get older, this can mean something like 'biting your tongue' when
> you pass by a messy bedroom for the 6th month in a row. Until eventually
> they pull it together.
>
> Control and rewards are by far easier for getting the desired results
> that a PARENT has in mind. But they aren't the best results for a person
> to become a self-assured adult.
>
> regards,
> kolleen
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:04:56 -0000
> From: "parrishmlus" <parrishml@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1784
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> > <<We use workbooks too only their used to earn money and other
> rewards>>
> >
> > Perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems you are saying that you pay
> your kids
> > money to do workbooks. That coupled with the information you
> posted about
> > unschooling at home while your kids were in ps, leads me to
> question your
> > understanding of unschooling.
> >
>
> Julie --
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but Dorinda's message looks like nothing so much as
> a big fat worm-on-a-hook to me. Did you take the bait, or am I
> totally wrong about this post? Could this possibly be an unschooler,
> and not some really creative troll?
>
> Dorinda -- i most heartily apologize if you were not pulling this
> list's collective leg (legs?). I mean it -- you had me reading your
> post to my daughter -- had my HUSBAND (MR.
> Homeschooling/Unschooling/Whatever) exclaiming, "She's an
> UNschooler???"
>
> Well, maybe a really creative unschooler with too much time on her
> hands.
>
> Delicious post.
>
> Laura
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:15:48 -0800
> From: Cindy <crma@...>
> Subject: Re: FYI: bill HR 3598
>
>
>
> Lorraine Goods wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Tia Leschke wrote:
> >
> > > Oh puke! One of the main reasons I moved from the U.S. to Canada in
> > > 1970. I sure wasn't going to raise boys for cannon fodder.
> > > Tia
> >
> > I hear ya! My boy sure ain't going to fight for Big Oil, no!
> >
>
> What is interesting is that my husband was explaining to me the
> night before last why we won't ever need a draft again. He said
> a lot of military people don't want a draft; they can get enough
> the way things are now. At the end of his explanation I said that
> it sounded like everyone (civilians) were the cannon fodder for
> this type of war. He agreed. Of course rationality has nothing
> to do with what Congress might pass.
>
> I may be moving to Canada - my little guy isn't going. I am so
> thankful that my oldest is 26 so past the age of the draft. My
> nephews and countless others aren't though. What insanity!
>
> --
>
> Cindy Ferguson
> crma@...
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:03:40 -0800
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> Subject: Re: the magic of reading (maybe)
>
>
> >
> >
> >It's been quite the opposite experience w/us. Our reading "lessons" are
> >incorporated into our general read-aloud snuggle times and it's been a
> >good experience for us. Of course, the kid has always been a book hog so
I
> >guess that has something to do w/it. We can literally spend the entire
> >day reading aloud and he never tires of it; he's just always had a
> >big love for books and that's why I guess he's so motivated.
>
> My son was just the same way, only he never asked for phonics and never
> wanted to do them. He loved being read to but didn't want to read for
> himself yet. If your son asked for phonics and reading games, great.
It's
> just that you said (I think it was you, could be wrong) there was an age
> beyond which you *would* force the issue. That age for me was 12. And it
> really was a mistake. (Never mind that it wasn't unschooling.)
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 02:35:20 -0000
> From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
> Subject: Re: introduction of Oakes Family
>
> I checked out your website and noticed a link to unschooling.com.
> Have you read there, or its message board?
> Your typical week seems fairly structured, and I was wondering, what
> do you mean by "time fillers" in your description of workbooks?
> Joanna
>
>
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Dorinda Oakes" <dorioakes@s...>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I am new here but not to unschooling.
> > We have done it since birth even when the kids were in PS we
> unschooled at
> > home.
> > My kids do well on standardized testing with one of then 6 grades
> higher
> > than his PS placement would be this year.
> > Andrew our oldest (15 in March) is learning disabled and unschooled
> himself
> > how to read with the Goosebumps books.
> > Lin III (12 next week) Is the one testing above grade level. Is
> working on
> > his Highschool Credits.
> > Felicia (just turned 10 in August) is having trouble with
> multiplication and
> > division.
> >
> > We use a geosafari which I make my own cards to fit subjects they
> are
> > working on in there unschooling. I also make File folder games for
> them. If
> > they play the games great If the don't oh well ant any rate I have
> > somethiong to show nosy people who claim my kids do nothing all
> day. :-))
> >
> > I have gotten really good at record keeping! My children had
> homebased head
> > start which trains parents to look at all the activities that there
> kids are
> > doing and pick out the educational content. I would reccomend it to
> anyone
> > who has toddlers 3-5 that plans on unschooling. They have a really
> nice form
> > that you fill out. or at least they did wghen my kids were there. I
> have
> > blank forms for elementary school in Maine that I made at my web
> site.
> > http://www.angelfire.com/me3/dorioakes/Homeschooling.html
> > My highschool form might be there too by the end of the week. If
> you want me
> > to upload a scanned immage of how it looks for Felicia Let me know.
> I can do
> > that.
> >
> > We also use computer curriculum of Jumpstart, Cornerstone Home, and
> > Cluefinders. The kids only play them when they want to and what
> ever grade
> > they want to.
> >
> > We use workbooks too only they are used to earn money or other
> rewards.
> > After all who goes to work (except homeschooling Mom's) without
> being
> > financially rewarded?????
> >
> > I'll talk Later.
> > Dorinda
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.319 / Virus Database: 178 - Release Date: 1/28/02
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:50:42 -0000
> From: "parrishmlus" <parrishml@...>
> Subject: Re: introduction of Oakes Family
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., parrishml@a... wrote:
> > Dorinda, your post was my ... biggest chuckle of the week! What an
> > industrious "unschooling" family!
> >
> > Laura
>
> I have to apologize for thinking you were joking, Dorinda. I've been
> away from unschooling message boards and lists for several months
> now. I was completely clueless about the changes on this board. These
> days when people say that they are unschoolers, it could mean
> different things, i guess. Our unschooling looks really different
> from your unschooling. I admit to being somewhat confused. Did I fall
> down a rabbit hole or something?
>
> Laura
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 06:30:04 -0500
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> Subject: Re: Parenting styles, choice and unschooled kids (was Re: Digest
Number 1783)
>
> on 1/29/02 1:00 PM, pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes at djac99_1999@...
> wrote:
>
> > Would unschooling/NCP change his personality bent,I wonder?
>
> I suspect he would still take risks but perhaps learn sooner how to search
> out the consequences and deal with them since they'd be his
responsibility.
> (To some extent.) Some people are wired that way. To some people the
actions
> are worth the consequences even if the rest of us can't see how it
possibly
> could be so. Why would it be worth the risk to jump your motorcycle across
> 20 tractor trailer trucks? Why would it be worth the risk to test fly
> experimental planes? Why would it be worth the risk to experiment with
> explosive chemicals to create bigger and better fireworks?
>
> What kind of risks does he take?
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 06:54:17 -0500
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> Subject: Re: the magic of reading (maybe)
>
> on 1/29/02 9:31 AM, Lorraine Goods at lg96@... wrote:
>
> > But even if he weren't into it, I'd start "making him" at a later age.
>
> I *do* understand what you're saying, Lynn.
>
> This is really more of a message to others with the same fears, rather
than
> directed at you, Lynn. More a discussion of the *idea* of delayed reading
> being equated with illiteracy.
>
> *If* someone wanted to get past the fear that their child wouldn't read if
> they waited too long, there are *plenty* of stories, particularly at
> Unschooling.com, that can assure people that if the printed word is a fun,
> useful part of their lives that they will read when they're
developmentally
> ready. We get filled up with too many scary stories of kids hitting 16 and
> being illiterate, and the *cause* that's pointed to is because the school
> failed them, because it didn't have the proper programs at the proper
time.
> But it just isn't true. It's because of the pressure to read by a certain
> age (4th grade), the stigma of being singled out because you can't do what
> "everyone" else can, the tedium of being forced to do something you don't
> want to do yet and have no interest in. When that environment is removed,
> kids *do* (honestly! :-) learn to read when they are developmentally ready
> and they feel reading is worthwhile to *them*.
>
> School and society fill us with so many certainties about how children
learn
> but that really just aren't true outside the setting of school.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 07:30:00 -0500
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> Subject: Re: introduction of Oakes Family
>
> on 1/29/02 12:24 PM, Dorinda Oakes at dorioakes@... wrote:
>
> > We have done it since birth even when the kids were in PS we unschooled
at
> > home.
>
> I suspect what you did was enrich their learning with fun activities.
> Nothing wrong with that! Sounds like fun! This is not to say you need to
> change anything about what you're doing. Only to gently suggest that if
> you're looking for ideas to make things kids need to know fun, you'll find
> the offerings on this list slim in that area. If, on the otherhand, you're
> trying to feel more comfortable that living is learning, trying to let go
of
> levels and the idea that some things are necessary to learn, then there's
> lots of helpful advice here.
>
> Unschooling doesn't have anything to do with learning what everyone is
> certain everyone needs to know. Unschooling is letting go of the idea that
> kids need to multiply or learn geography or history or grammar or how to
> write. Those things *will* be part of their lives and kids *will* reach a
> level of competence that is useful to them. Books will be set in real
> locations, games will be played that need arithmetic to be better at,
> message boards will have messages that kids will want to respond to. (Or
not
> if their interests lie elsewhere.) The concept of unschooling is that,
just
> as they took what path they found most useful for their own needs in
> learning to speak (talking about dinosaurs or poop or Teletubbies), kids
> will acquire what they need as adults by exploring the paths of their
> interests. Whatever level of geography (or whatever) they acquire
naturally
> through living -- and continue acquiring through out their lives -- is
the
> level that they will need as adults. *If* they need a higher level for
some
> purpose that suddenly strikes them, they will either set about acquiring
it
> because they know they can learn whatever they set out to learn, or they
> will have already acquired it because it's part of the things they are
> naturally drawn to.
>
> > My kids do well on standardized testing with one of then 6 grades higher
> > than his PS placement would be this year.
>
> In unschooling there are no grades or placements. Unschooled kids are
where
> they are according to their own needs, not some standard.
>
> > Felicia (just turned 10 in August) is having trouble with multiplication
and
> > division.
>
> Because she has a need in her right now life for multiplication and
division
> (a job? love of a particular game or type of puzzle?) and she isn't up to
> doing what she feels she needs? Or because she's not performing at some
> grade-level standard?
>
> Again, this is not saying what you're doing is wrong, only that if you
want
> ideas on doing more of the same, other lists (like one that deals with
> eclectic homeschooling) will have *way* more ideas for you than this one.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:36:16 -0500
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> Subject: Re: the haves, the havenots and unschooling by definition
>
> on 1/28/02 1:42 AM, Lynda at lurine@... wrote:
>
> > If the term disappears tomorrow, who cares?
>
> I care. And I can give you reasons why I care. The reasons aren't intended
> to convince anyone that I'm right and someone else is wrong. The reasons
are
> an explanation of why I do what I do. Everyone has their own reasons for
> doing what they do and feeling what they feel. I think we're each entitled
> to act as we feel is best to achieve the goals *we* feel are important.
One
> of my goals is to help keep the definition of unschooling clear because
it's
> important *to me*. (Another is to help newbies who are in a quandry to see
> the illusory barriers in their thinking set up by society that keeps them
> from seeing the true nature of the problems they're facing.)
>
> > If the term gets "watered down," so what.
>
> *My* reasons for caring whether it gets watered down or not is that for
> those *who do* want to let go entirely, there needs to be a clear goal to
> reach.
>
> Unless there are people -- and I don't mean everyone needs to do this --
but
> people who do speak up and say "*This* is unschooling" and people who
> believe with all their hearts that "*This* place has benefits that that
> place doesn't have" and speak their minds on it, then many people who
could
> have gone farther had they only known will stop at their comfort level
> believing there are no greater benefits.
>
> It *seems* like just living unschooling and showing people unschooling
will
> let them understand unschooling without defining it. After all a child
> unschools exactly like that. He follows the path that leads to *his* goal.
> He isn't seeking out a path that leads to someone's definition of "Jimmy's
> goal in life". He's setting his own goal and taking his own path.
>
> But, though that may be the *method* of unschooling, the *philosophy* of
> unschooling *isn't* whatever goal that a family decides suits their family
> best. It *is* a very definite definible goal and helping people reach
*that
> particular* goal is different than helping them reach whatever goal they
> feel comfortable with.
>
> But just because I want to keep the definition of unschooling clear
> *doesn't* mean I advocate jumping all over newbies who are unclear on the
> concept and try to brow beat them into accepting my definition.
>
> *How* somenoe handles statements they disagree with is an entirely
separate
> issue from *why* they do so. They may seem connected, but they *are*
> separate.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:06:42 -0500
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> Subject: Re: Subjects of substance WAS: new and inneed of support
>
> on 1/27/02 6:11 PM, Lynda at lurine@... wrote:
>
> > If a sender continues with an in your face, shove it down your throat
style
> > even when the person asking a question has made it clear that isn't a
style
> > that they like or appreciate, then perhaps the sender needs to look a
little
> > closer to home to see why they feel it is necessary for them to treat
all
> > people asking questions to verbal abuse.
>
> But, objectively speaking, why would a receiver continue asking questions
of
> someone they felt wasn't communicating in the way they felt comfortable
> with? Yes, everyone can point to specific instances and say "What about
> this?" But that's losing sight of what the true nature of the problem is.
> The problem *isn't* that someone chooses to communicate in a way he has
> gotten positive feed back on, but that others decide that he shouldn't
> communicate that way because some don't like it.
>
> I sometimes find it helpful to turn a question around and use it on
> something I agree with to see if it fits.
>
> If someone were asking the Dalai Lama questions about Buddhism and didn't
> like his gentle, seek inside yourself answers (or whatever style he'd
use),
> isn't the Dalai Lama entitled to feel that the method he uses to help
people
> on the path to enlightenment best? If he thought some other way were
better,
> then wouldn't he use it? Or, at least, he employs his skills in the way he
> feels he's best at. If a fair number of people wanted a more direct (or
> whatever) style, does he have an obligation to change to meet their needs?
> Should he compromise the method he feels is best in order to meet the
needs
> of more people or compromise meeting more people's needs so he can meet
the
> needs of those who seek the style he feels he's best at?
>
> Maybe that's hard to see. It's hard to get past the idea that someone
> shouldn't be irritating other people. If someone were *only* irritating
> people, then people certainly have a right to speak up. If someone is
> speaking in a way that *some* find irritating and *some* find helpful --
> *not* helpful because they enjoy being irritated but because they find
> something in the style illuminating -- then the problem *isn't* how to
> silence that person so no one gets irritated, but to create an environment
> where that style *and* other styles can co-exist so that those who come
here
> can have a *choice*.
>
> Perhaps all it will take is an email reminder posted to the list that
> different people have different styles of communicating, or some such
> wording.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:43:54 -0500
> From: "Joseph Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1784
>
> **When I say I am done talking about him because I think most of you
> have heard enough, I'm told that I should explain again.
>
> Bridget**
>
>
> Well, actually, I never "told you" you *should* do anything. I merely
> asked questions about whether or not it may be a good idea if newer list
> members are interested. Believe me, I am hesitant to have you try it
> again. And your response here reminds me why.
> And apparently, you don't want to....I'm certainly willing to take
that
> at face value.
>
> respectfully,
> Susan
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:31:18 -0500
> From: "Joseph Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1784
>
> ***Is it acceptable to become an adult in our society who just doesn't
> > read? Would you want to allow your kid to go out into the world so
> > unprepared? Aren't you worried they'll be taken advantage of, or be
unable
> > to negotiate contracts/instructions/newspapers?
>
> I am definitely not okay w/the idea of my kid not being able to read at
> 16. I think reading is a basic skill for survival in this society. My kid
> is almost six and he is just starting to read. We do phonics stuff and
sound
> games every day *at his request*. But even if he weren't into it, I'd
> start "making him" at a later age. Not at the age he is now, but certainly
> by 10 or so. Yup, you betcha I would! It is the one thing I feel strongly
> that he has to learn. Years ago, it was illegal for my ancestors to learn
> how to read (we are African American) in this country. I feel it would be
> a slap in the face for all their struggles for me to neglect this one
> aspect of his upbringing.
>
> Best,
> Lynn***
>
> Now this is the kind of thinking that just begs for a response along the
> lines of unschooling! I'll just ask, Lynn, you're willing to give up
> unschooling if your child can't read by age 10? I'm wondering whether you
> fully understand it then. And I won't speak for Tia, but she has
commented
> many times that her experience of intervening with her son seemed to make
> things worse in their relationship.
>
> I truly understand your dilemma, for I have experienced what you are
simply
> talking about as a possible situation. Let me share a bit of my
experience.
> Since we moved away from the school track for our family (my oldest had
> attended kindergarten and two yrs of preschool), I explored aspects of
> educating our children at home and found that unschooling resonated as the
> most genuine way to allow my children to grow.
> When my very intelligent dd wasn't reading by the end of 'first
grade',
> I worried. She had even forgotten the sight words she had memorized in
> kindergarten. All the veteran homeschoolers advised me to take a deep
breat
> h and be patient. I had to trusyt a bunch of people I'd never met in
> person? Well, I did. For several months. And as dd did NOT 'take off'
in
> her reading, my patience left me. I once again struggled to 'let go. A
> discussion came up here ...about whether or not it's ok for a parent to
> 'just let them grow up illiterate'. But again, the those who had older
> children, children who learned to read 'later', others coping with the
> same circumstance all recommended being patient. I went up and down this
> roller coaster....though the hills and valleys became less and less
> pronounced.
> Finally, about a year ago, I *truly got it*!!! I had *really*
missed
> the point of unschooling in regard to reading! All along, I was pushing
dd
> into word games, shaming her at times (I didn't consciously intend to...I
> was ashamed it camed out that way). In my roller coaster ride, I was
still
> pushing her...only it became more subtle usually. Or I'd think...ok,
I've
> been patient for 6-7 months, and that hasn't 'worked' (meaning it didn't
> get me what *I* wanted - her to read AND enjoy it!)
> Intead of allowing her the freedom to learn when, how, as much as
SHE
> chose, I was trying to get her to meet MY expectations. When she was 8,
> dh and I even devised a *plan* to have her tested if she couldn't read by
> age 9. Then it was, we'll start a stringent structured program by age 9;
> then it was....maybe I'm not handling this right, maybe we should pay a
> tutor. Well, all this didn't settle well with me. And whenever it came
up,
> dd felt like she had disappointed me, like a failure. She was stressed
and
> tense about reading and 'tried' to do it for me....yet became increasingly
> resistant.
> When I examined this situation more closely, I realized I had some
> major de-schooling to do of my own thinking. I had to examine how
> mainstream ideas had infiltrated my thinking about how it's my *job* to
make
> sure she knows certain things.
> And your post almost exactly states my thinking on it.
> Maybe you'll not be able to understand unless you go through it. But I
was
> wrong in my attitude and it only harmed my dd. She was not truly allowed
> the freedom she neede in this area (i.e., NOT unschooling) until I had
this
> breakthrough in my thinking and attitude.
> I need to go now......I hope you can look at this with an open mind!
> Susan
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

[email protected]

20 Sep 2005, at 11:56am

Our experiences with sleep predate our unschooling. When the kids were
babies I'd nurse them to sleep and stay with them or in the next room, and if one
woke up I'd go in and carry him or nurse him or rock him. I never "put them
down for naps," and my friends who did that, who scheduled hours of dark and
quiet and tried to "train them" to sleep seemed even in that first year or two
to be less connected to their babies than I wanted to be.

When Kirby was old enough to say he wasn't sleepy, when I was really sleepy,
there were a couple of things I'd do. Sometimes I would put on a cassette
tape and ask him to just listen to it until it ended, and then if he was still
awake he could wake me up. Maybe twice he lasted through, but dozens of
times he'd fall asleep before it was over. The other thing was if he woke up in
the middle of the night and I wasn't able to wake up enough to be with him,
I'd set him up with finger food and a sippy cup in a high chair with a long
videotape, and a little blanket, and he would either eat and drink and watch
until I woke up, or more often would put the blanket down as a pillow and fall
asleep.

We were in a small house then, and we could hear each other speak in normal
voices, and at night when it was quiet we could hear each other breathe. In
the big house we're in now, that wouldn't have worked as well. But what I
have done here, though Holly was turning six when we moved here, was to lie down
on the couch in the den, with her on a futon on the floor watching a movie to
which she would fall asleep. I was still asleep, but she wasn't alone.

Just last week we played a verson of that. Holly wanted to watch a movie
with me. I'd already watched it earlier, and told her I might fall asleep.
She said okay. I was in a recliner and was awake enough that if she said
something I could respond, and I as trying to keep track of where we were in the
movie a little, but mostly I slept. When it was over we both went to bed.

To tell a child "If you don't sleep eight hours you'll be grumpy" is the same
as saying "if you eat too much candy you'll get sick." You risk flatly
telling a lie. It's threat for the purpose of control. It's working on the
assumption that what a mother says is truth because she's a mother and that's a
dangerous thought to think. Partly we think it in justification of our own
mothers and grandmothers. "Why would she have said it 200 times if there's
no truth to it?"

To be mindful we need to consider each thing we do in its own immediate
light. It's worth reminding children of scheduled activities the next day, but to
try to *make* them sleep eight hours before is likely to cause agitation and
stress, and people do NOT fall asleep when they're stressed and agitated. Five
or six hours of peaceful, gentle sleep is WAY way better than eight hours of
being in the bed feeling unloved and controlled and ashamed.

My kids are 19, 16, and 13. Recently, Marty has been going to sleep the
earliest. If he has to go to work the next day, he's usually asleep by midnight
or 1:00. He works from noon to five. When he's not going to work, he
might be up later with friends, either online or out at an allnight resaurant or
Walmart. Kirby works at 11:00 each weekday. He doesn't need as much sleep
as Marty. He gets himself up and gets there on time. Holly has had the
most erratic schedule lately. Now that school has started it's getting more
regular, because the kids she plays Halo II can't stay up so late on school
nights, so the school schedules of kids in other parts of the country are
affecting her at our house. That's interesting. But after they've gone to bed and
Kirby wants to go to sleep (the XBox is in his room), she sometimes stays up
later on the computer, chatting with some of the kids she met at HesFes, and
their friends, before they go to school in the morning, or later if it's not a
schoolday. Some days, lately, Holly sleeps until late afternoon. Sometimes
she sets an alarm for noon or 1:00 and asks me to make sure she gets up.

When there's a reason to get up, they set an alarm and get up cheerfully.
When being asleep seems better than being awake, they go to bed. Because
they've done it all their lives, I'm less concerned about it, and they're less
likely to stay up just for the sake of staying up than might happen in families
new to the idea.

There's no good reason to jump straight to a different way of being, when it
can be done gradually. Lots of little "yesses" are better than one giant "I
don't care anymore," in lots of ways. Better with food, better with sleep,
better with choices. Maybe even better with a curriculum, if the parents are
undecided. Rather than "try unschooling" and fail from lack of
understanding or desire, might it be better if they just don't make kids start their work
or finish it, and let it peter out with all of them seeing the lack of
importance of it, and seeing the kids learn more happily other ways? I don't know.
Never had to learn that one.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathy Stamp

20 Sep 2005, at 1:09pm

"There's no good reason to jump straight to a different way of being, when
it
can be done gradually. Lots of little "yesses" are better than one giant
"I
don't care anymore," in lots of ways. Better with food, better with
sleep,
better with choices. Maybe even better with a curriculum, if the parents
are
undecided. Rather than "try unschooling" and fail from lack of
understanding or desire, might it be better if they just don't make kids
start their work
or finish it, and let it peter out with all of them seeing the lack of
importance of it, and seeing the kids learn more happily other ways? I
don't know.
Never had to learn that one."

I like this Sandra. I don't post often, but I have been reading for years.
We started out with public school.
3.5 years ago I brought my 7 year old daughter home, just this past year
one of her older brothers decided to join us, and all of the younger
children (now 8,6,3,and 8 months) have never been to school. I have always
been what's coined an "Attachement Parent" but school always just seemed
like what you had to do. I've learned so much over the years through some
great books, message boards, and discussion lists etc. We still use a math
curriculum, and a bit of "scheduled" reading but that's a far way from where
we use to be, and it works for us. I say "yes" more than I say "no" now, and
I always think about why I'm going to say "no" if I do. I think that just
throwing all rules to the wind could be confusing to children and adults
alike. So we take it slow. The big thing that's important to me is that I
have really talked to my kids, as we have slowly made the changes. To me
what's most important is that my kids will and do talk to me about their
lives and their thoughts. We discuss things and our relationships seems real
and respectful in both directions:-).

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] sleep

> Our experiences with sleep predate our unschooling. When the kids were
> babies I'd nurse them to sleep and stay with them or in the next room, and
> if one
> woke up I'd go in and carry him or nurse him or rock him. I never "put
> them
> down for naps," and my friends who did that, who scheduled hours of dark
> and
> quiet and tried to "train them" to sleep seemed even in that first year or
> two
> to be less connected to their babies than I wanted to be.
>
> When Kirby was old enough to say he wasn't sleepy, when I was really
> sleepy,
> there were a couple of things I'd do. Sometimes I would put on a
> cassette
> tape and ask him to just listen to it until it ended, and then if he was
> still
> awake he could wake me up. Maybe twice he lasted through, but dozens of
> times he'd fall asleep before it was over. The other thing was if he
> woke up in
> the middle of the night and I wasn't able to wake up enough to be with
> him,
> I'd set him up with finger food and a sippy cup in a high chair with a
> long
> videotape, and a little blanket, and he would either eat and drink and
> watch
> until I woke up, or more often would put the blanket down as a pillow and
> fall
> asleep.
>
> We were in a small house then, and we could hear each other speak in
> normal
> voices, and at night when it was quiet we could hear each other breathe.
> In
> the big house we're in now, that wouldn't have worked as well. But what
> I
> have done here, though Holly was turning six when we moved here, was to
> lie down
> on the couch in the den, with her on a futon on the floor watching a movie
> to
> which she would fall asleep. I was still asleep, but she wasn't alone.
>
> Just last week we played a verson of that. Holly wanted to watch a movie
> with me. I'd already watched it earlier, and told her I might fall
> asleep.
> She said okay. I was in a recliner and was awake enough that if she said
> something I could respond, and I as trying to keep track of where we were
> in the
> movie a little, but mostly I slept. When it was over we both went to
> bed.
>
> To tell a child "If you don't sleep eight hours you'll be grumpy" is the
> same
> as saying "if you eat too much candy you'll get sick." You risk flatly
> telling a lie. It's threat for the purpose of control. It's working on
> the
> assumption that what a mother says is truth because she's a mother and
> that's a
> dangerous thought to think. Partly we think it in justification of our
> own
> mothers and grandmothers. "Why would she have said it 200 times if
> there's
> no truth to it?"
>
> To be mindful we need to consider each thing we do in its own immediate
> light. It's worth reminding children of scheduled activities the next
> day, but to
> try to *make* them sleep eight hours before is likely to cause agitation
> and
> stress, and people do NOT fall asleep when they're stressed and agitated.
> Five
> or six hours of peaceful, gentle sleep is WAY way better than eight hours
> of
> being in the bed feeling unloved and controlled and ashamed.
>
> My kids are 19, 16, and 13. Recently, Marty has been going to sleep the
> earliest. If he has to go to work the next day, he's usually asleep by
> midnight
> or 1:00. He works from noon to five. When he's not going to work, he
> might be up later with friends, either online or out at an allnight
> resaurant or
> Walmart. Kirby works at 11:00 each weekday. He doesn't need as much
> sleep
> as Marty. He gets himself up and gets there on time. Holly has had the
> most erratic schedule lately. Now that school has started it's getting
> more
> regular, because the kids she plays Halo II can't stay up so late on
> school
> nights, so the school schedules of kids in other parts of the country are
> affecting her at our house. That's interesting. But after they've gone
> to bed and
> Kirby wants to go to sleep (the XBox is in his room), she sometimes stays
> up
> later on the computer, chatting with some of the kids she met at HesFes,
> and
> their friends, before they go to school in the morning, or later if it's
> not a
> schoolday. Some days, lately, Holly sleeps until late afternoon.
> Sometimes
> she sets an alarm for noon or 1:00 and asks me to make sure she gets up.
>
> When there's a reason to get up, they set an alarm and get up cheerfully.
> When being asleep seems better than being awake, they go to bed. Because
> they've done it all their lives, I'm less concerned about it, and they're
> less
> likely to stay up just for the sake of staying up than might happen in
> families
> new to the idea.
>
> There's no good reason to jump straight to a different way of being, when
> it
> can be done gradually. Lots of little "yesses" are better than one giant
> "I
> don't care anymore," in lots of ways. Better with food, better with
> sleep,
> better with choices. Maybe even better with a curriculum, if the parents
> are
> undecided. Rather than "try unschooling" and fail from lack of
> understanding or desire, might it be better if they just don't make kids
> start their work
> or finish it, and let it peter out with all of them seeing the lack of
> importance of it, and seeing the kids learn more happily other ways? I
> don't know.
> Never had to learn that one.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> <http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Rebecca Benson

21 Sep 2005, at 5:50pm

That's exactly how I've always been. All of my friends have such a regimented sleep schedule that it is mind boggling. They all think I'm very radical because I don't have naptimes and the kids have all slept in my bed and then in my room until they felt ready to move into their own room. I am SO far from radical (sigh).

SandraDodd@... wrote:
-=-Our experiences with sleep predate our unschooling. When the kids were babies I'd nurse them to sleep and stay with them or in the next room, and if one woke up I'd go in and carry him or nurse him or rock him. I never "put them
down for naps," and my friends who did that, who scheduled hours of dark and quiet and tried to "train them" to sleep seemed even in that first year or two to be less connected to their babies than I wanted to be.-=-

I'm able to do this with Phoenix, my 4yo, but what did you do when you had two little ones who wanted to stay up when you were exhausted and one of them was only two?

-=-When Kirby was old enough to say he wasn't sleepy, when I was really sleepy, there were a couple of things I'd do. Sometimes I would put on a cassette tape and ask him to just listen to it until it ended, and then if he was still
awake he could wake me up.-=-
-=-But what I have done here, though Holly was turning six when we moved here, was to lie down on the couch in the den, with her on a futon on the floor watching a movie to
which she would fall asleep. I was still asleep, but she wasn't alone.-=-

I try not to tell my kids the eight-hour lie, because I know that every person is different. But the truth is that the boys ARE tired a good portion of the time, with dark circles under their eyes and my 9yo, the one who can't sleep late even when he tries, is starting to get the sniffles. But I think they just need to learn their own bodies and learn what makes them feel the most comfortable.

My original post wasn't about getting the kids to bed earlier so much as it was a question on how to create a balance between what my younger children want and need and what I need.

-=-To tell a child "If you don't sleep eight hours you'll be grumpy" is the same as saying "if you eat too much candy you'll get sick." You risk flatly telling a lie. It's threat for the purpose of control.
To be mindful we need to consider each thing we do in its own immediate light.-=-

I like this a lot, maybe because I tried "jumping into" unschooling a couple of years ago and it was a disaster. Now we're getting there gradually and the results have been truly amazing.

-=-There's no good reason to jump straight to a different way of being, when it can be done gradually. Lots of little "yesses" are better than one giant "I don't care anymore," in lots of ways.
Sandra

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[email protected]

21 Sep 2005, at 5:54pm

In a message dated 9/21/05 3:31:55 PM, rjpbenson@... writes:

> One, my only time to go walking is early in the morning unless I want to
> drag all five kids with me and two,my 7mo is, and always has been, an early
> riser.
> ========================

[email protected]

21 Sep 2005, at 6:02pm

In a message dated 9/21/05 3:31:55 PM, rjpbenson@... writes:

> -=-My 13 and 9yo both say they like to stay up late because it makes them
> feel more mature and adult-like to stay up later than their parents. -=-
>

Rebecca Benson

21 Sep 2005, at 9:23pm

I get up at 530 and leave the house by 545, back by 645 so that my husband can get in the shower at that time, that way, if one of the girls wakes up, my husband or I will be there for them. I take my 7mo old with me.
I guess I could resume my walking schedule in a few years, but I actually just started it a month or so ago because my doctor says I need to lose weight since I'm at very high risk for developing Type 2 Diabetes. I've tried exercise tapes and that sort of thing, but my baby wakes up when I get out of bed so I'm not able to exercise unless he's with me and being rocked (so he's either in the stroller or in the Baby Bjorn).
I hadn't thought about a neighborhood teenager coming by. We live in a very small town and I can't imagine anyone wanting their kid to come over before dawn to hang out at my house (not to mention we really can't afford it), but I guess I should stop being such a naysayer and actually make an effort to try one of your suggestions!

SandraDodd@... wrote:

In a message dated 9/21/05 3:31:55 PM, rjpbenson@... writes:

> One, my only time to go walking is early in the morning unless I want to
> drag all five kids with me and two,my 7mo is, and always has been, an early
> riser.
> ========================

Do you walk before your husband goes to work?

Can you wait a few years to resume your walking schedule?

Is there a neighboring teenager who could come to your house early and just
be there in case kids wake up and want breakfast?

Sandra

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Rebecca Benson

21 Sep 2005, at 9:29pm

I definitely think you're right about the deschooling aspect of choosing their own bedtime. I keep telling my husband that we just need to be patient and realize that they need to push the limits for a while to find out where their own boundaries lie.

I'm not sure how to go about making dark and quiet more desireable than what the boys are experiencing, but I'm thinking that if I can just be patient and try to establish a bedtime routine that is really pleasing to the girls, that they are helping to create, things will be fine.

...and if all else fails, they'll get older and this situation will cease to exist anyway!:-)
Rebecca

SandraDodd@... wrote:

In a message dated 9/21/05 3:31:55 PM, rjpbenson@... writes:

> -=-My 13 and 9yo both say they like to stay up late because it makes them
> feel more mature and adult-like to stay up later than their parents. -=-
>

This is not criticism of your family at all, but a pointer to a result of
traditional rules.
It's likely that being told they had to go to bed because they were little
was the way they "learned" that staying up late is the cool, adult thing to do.
And so for a while they will stay awake just because they couldn't before.
It's similar to deschooling, I think, or to binging on previously-forbidden
food, or refusing previousy-required food.

Without real choices, will a person learn to sleep just because of
sleepiness, or will he always have to go by the clock and rules?

-=-My little ones want to stay up because the older ones get to.-=-

Finding ways to help dark and quiet be desireable might help.

Sandra

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[email protected]

22 Sep 2005, at 9:26am

In a message dated 9/21/2005 8:23:52 PM Central Standard Time,
rjpbenson@... writes:

guess I could resume my walking schedule in a few years, but I actually just
started it a month or so ago because my doctor says I need to lose weight
since I'm at very high risk for developing Type 2 Diabetes

~~~

Congratulations on being so committed to your health that you get up so
early! I'm impressed.

There are lots of studies out now that say you don't have to get your
exercise all at once. You can spread it out a little all throughout the day. You
could take a shorter early morning walk with the baby, and then take walks
with the kids at other parts of the day. Walk to other places in town, the
park, the grocery store, instead of driving.

The point is to keep moving all day, no matter what you're doing. The
reason we have to "exercise" in our modern world is because we don't have to
"work" for our survival. So spend some time imagining what it would be like
without electricity <g> and do those kinds of things throughout the day. Tend a
garden, sweep the carpet instead of vacuum, cook outside, spend lots of time
outside with the kids.

I spend a lot of time imagining what my dad's childhood was like, based on
the stories he's told me over my lifetime and knowing his mother and putting
her stories together. (She'll be 100 in November, but her mind is gone.) She
had 4 kids and a farmhouse to run, and her husband died while her kids were
young, and the river flooded and changed course and took their farm and they
had to move into town. So what was her life like? Nursing twins (my daddy
and his sister) and giving birth again so soon after. Cooking what she grows
or slaughters. I can still remember her drinking black coffee out of the
saucer and the smell of burnt bacon in her house. My dad told me a story about
how the mule got stuck in the mud with all 4 kids on it's back, and his mother
dragged that mule out and all 4 kids with just her own strength. I think
she was fit, don't you?

I'm not suggesting any mother go back to that hard life (which she never
complained about, btw), but we can learn why we are so fat and diabetic in this
country by considering what it was like without modern conveniences, and
emulate that sort of activity.

With three littles like you have, it's easy to get exhausted quickly. But
just more movement built into your day will help, and that's easy to do with
all the baby/toddler-wrangling you have to do. The more you move, the easier
it gets, and the more you move, the more you can do...

Another reason I try to move more every day is to make a good example for my
youngest son, who has the bad diabetic genes, and I want him to have a
history of a lifetime of fitness, instead of getting fat and lazy like his mother
and father did. (Not so lazy anymore!) Maybe if you get your older kids
moving more every day they won't be so wide-awake at midnight, either.

Karen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

22 Sep 2005, at 10:25am

In a message dated 9/21/05 7:30:40 PM, rjpbenson@... writes:

> I'm not sure how to go about making dark and quiet more desireable than
> what the boys are experiencing,
>

You could say simply and truthfully that noise and wild lateness are no good
for several reasons:
disruption of the peace of the house

risk of neighbors complaining and you getting in trouble (that is quite real
if they're being full-speed, full-noise, full-on-obviously-awake)

lack of restfulness

disruption of daytime

You could just say that they can stay up IF they can do so in a still and
quiet manner, with the intent of going to sleep when they feel sleepy, not with
the intent of prowling and howling like coyotes until daylight.

-=-...and if all else fails, they'll get older and this situation will cease
to exist anyway!:-) -=-

If all else succeeds they will too, but don't think of it as "if all else
fails." Figure out how to make it make sense to the people in your family, and
to work.

I think saying "you can stay up as late as you want" is just another rule, in
a case in which rules have been the norm.

If you move toward living by principle rather than rules, all kinds of things
will make more sense to you and the kids all.

http://sandradodd.com/benrules

There's something Ben Lovejoy wrote up for a talk he gave.

Here's some other commentary on rules vs. principles

http://sandradodd.com/rules

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Benson

23 Sep 2005, at 10:01am

Sandrewmama <sandrewmama@...> wrote:

Rebecca, I had this same issue and solved it by getting a treadmill. I still try to do it in the morning, while they're sleeping -- but they're older and could entertain themselves if I did it after they're awake. If you're not comfortable wearing the baby while on a treadmill (I'm not sure how safe that'd be?) you might be able to put the baby in a bouncy chair or swing or something and still keep him content with your presence... maybe?

My husband and I have talked about buying a treadmill, we just haven't had the money to buy one yet. Even a used one is a little out of our budget right now...maybe Santa will bring me one!

Rebecca

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Rebecca Benson

23 Sep 2005, at 10:15am

tuckervill2@... wrote:

In a message dated 9/21/2005 8:23:52 PM Central Standard Time,
rjpbenson@... writes:

guess I could resume my walking schedule in a few years, but I actually just
started it a month or so ago because my doctor says I need to lose weight
since I'm at very high risk for developing Type 2 Diabetes

~~~

Congratulations on being so committed to your health that you get up so
early! I'm impressed.

There are lots of studies out now that say you don't have to get your
exercise all at once. You can spread it out a little all throughout the day. You
could take a shorter early morning walk with the baby, and then take walks
with the kids at other parts of the day. Walk to other places in town, the
park, the grocery store, instead of driving.

To make something like what you're suggesting work, I would have to get more organized, because in the past I have tried doing the 10-minute here and there workout and it would never happen. I do really well when I set aside a block of time first thing in the morning and workout before my day has begun. But that doesn't mean I can't change.

The point is to keep moving all day, no matter what you're doing.

I recently read an article that said washing dishes by hand burns 120 calories for 30 minutes, so maybe if I just look for a way to make each activity MORE active, I'd burn more calories that way.

Another reason I try to move more every day is to make a good example.

That's part of the reason I get up so early everyday even though I'd rather sleep in. I want my kids to know that exercise and being fit is important to me and I know they'll see that if I continue to exercise and eat better.
Maybe if you get your older kids
moving more every day they won't be so wide-awake at midnight, either.

Karen

You're right. I've noticed that on the days they go bike riding or play basketball they go to bed earlier and sleep more soundly. So do I.
Rebecca

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[email protected]

23 Sep 2005, at 11:19am

In a message dated 9/23/05 8:04:46 AM, rjpbenson@... writes:

> -=-Even a used one is a little out of our budget right now...maybe Santa
> will bring me one!-=-
>

Maybe you could join the local freecycle list and ask for one.

Reconsider your budget in such a way that if a treadmill will eliminate
stress, it's not just "a treadmill" but an investment in the mental health,
togetherness and unschooling of the family. If it will prevent future therapy or
marrige counselling, it will look a lot cheaper. If money can buy a little
happiness (or at least calmer more peaceful thinking for the mom) it might be
worth not rejecting out of hand.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Benson

24 Sep 2005, at 8:26am

SandraDodd@... wrote:
-=-Reconsider your budget in such a way that if a treadmill will eliminate stress, it's not just "a treadmill" but an investment in the mental health, togetherness and unschooling of the family. If it will prevent future therapy or
marrige counselling, it will look a lot cheaper. If money can buy a little happiness (or at least calmer more peaceful thinking for the mom) it might be worth not rejecting out of hand.-=-

I hadn't thought of it in that way, but you're absolutely right. That's what I love so much about this group - it gives me a new way of looking at things and keeps me from getting stuck in a rut.

Rebecca

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rjpbenson

24 Sep 2005, at 8:58am

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote
-=- I think saying "you can stay up as late as you want" is just
another rule, in > a case in which rules have been the norm.-=-

I'm not sure how this is just another rule. What I've actually said
to them is that their dad and I aren't going to tell them what time to
go to bed anymore because we feel that is a decision they need to make
for themselves.

-=-If you move toward living by principle rather than rules, all kinds
of things will make more sense to you and the kids all. -=-

That's what I'm trying to do, but it's hard to get out of the old
mindset. I've read everything on your Radical Unschooling website
that discusses rules vs. principles and I still feel like I'm
floundering. I just have to have faith that with practice, this will
get easier in time.

Rebecca

[email protected]

24 Sep 2005, at 10:49am

In a message dated 9/24/05 6:59:53 AM, rjpbenson@... writes:

> -=-I'm not sure how this is just another rule. What I've actually said
> to them is that their dad and I aren't going to tell them what time to
> go to bed anymore because we feel that is a decision they need to make
> for themselves. -=-
>

==============

If you will inflexibly demand that they make their own decisions, it's
another incidence of inflexibility.

Maybe they want suggestions. Holly can decide what to wear, but sometimes
we'll remind her of realities of the situation (conservative, dark, cold, not
nice to wear white, whatever). My kids can decide what to eat, but a sick kid
is more likely to be gifted with soup and juice. They don't need to make
those decisions for themselves, on their own, in the absence of oher factors and
ideas and reminders.

There are other realities about being asleep, awake, noisy or loud when one
lives with other people, even if just one other consenting adult. To pretend
otherwise isn't balance or principle.

The principle of making one's own decisions should be in the context of the
needs of the individual AND others involved. I can drive a car whenever and
wherever I want to. How I decide when and where has much to do with other
people in our family.

I don't think giving choices should preclude helping kids, offering them food
and making their beds and offering to tuck them in and all that. It's more
important to let go of "have to" than to let go of "might want to," or of o
ffering and then being willing to take "can I wait a while?" for an answer.

Abandoning a whole way of life suddenly is probably almost as uncomfortable
as arbitrary rules are. Saying yes more and more and more would feel better
for everyone, I think. Maybe it's too late for you go gently if you've
already jumped.

This is not intended to encourage people to use math lessons or to teach
reading.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Benson

26 Sep 2005, at 11:30am

-=-SandraDodd@... wrote:

In a message dated 9/24/05 6:59:53 AM, rjpbenson@... writes:

> -=-I'm not sure how this is just another rule. What I've actually said to them is that their dad and I aren't going to tell them what time to go to bed anymore because we feel that is a decision they need to make for themselves. -=-
>

==============

-=-If you will inflexibly demand that they make their own decisions, it's another incidence of inflexibility.-=-

AAAAHHHH!!! This is like one of those Zen koans (is that spelled right?)that drive you nuts because they get your mind working in ways it's not used to. I understand what you're saying, but I don't UNDERSTAND what you're saying. I thought that by letting them take control of their own bedtimes, I was being more flexible, not less. I just don't understand how I'm supposed to give them the control, without letting them know that it's theirs.

-=-Maybe they want suggestions. Holly can decide what to wear, but sometimes we'll remind her of realities of the situation (conservative, dark, cold, not nice to wear white, whatever). My kids can decide what to eat, but a sick kid
is more likely to be gifted with soup and juice. They don't need to make those decisions for themselves, on their own, in the absence of oher factors and ideas and reminders.-=-

My husband had mentioned that it seemed like our 13yo, Logan, wanted us to tell him what time to go to bed, but when I've suggested that maybe he should go to bed since he looks tired or is yawning a lot, he says no. So then what should I do?

-=-There are other realities about being asleep, awake, noisy or loud when one lives with other people, even if just one other consenting adult. To pretend otherwise isn't balance or principle.
The principle of making one's own decisions should be in the context of the needs of the individual AND others involved-=-

I've explained to the boys that the only way they can stay up later than everyone else is if they are respectful of everyone who is sleeping. They also agreed to go to their room and lay low for 20-30 minutes each night so the girls would be able to fall asleep and so could Damon and I. So I feel that the needs of everyone involved ARE being considered.

-=-I don't think giving choices should preclude helping kids, offering them food and making their beds and offering to tuck them in and all that. -=-

I'm not sure why you would think that that is what has happened. The one thing that had fallen by the wayside that I've reinstated, was the whole bedtime routine with brushing of teeth, washing face and hands, pajamas and a story. Then if Colton (9yo)wants to stay up he can, but at least I've had that time with him and he's gotten the personal hygeine part taken care of with someone to help if he needs it.

-=-It's more important to let go of "have to" than to let go of "might want to," or of offering and then being willing to take "can I wait a while?" for an answer.-=-

So did I inadvertently replace, "You have to go to bed now," with "You have to stay up because you CAN stay up?" Do you think that's how the boys are taking it and if so, how do I rectify that?

-=-Abandoning a whole way of life suddenly is probably almost as uncomfortable as arbitrary rules are. Saying yes more and more and more would feel better for everyone, I think.-=-

Actually, only the bedtime situation has been addressed. The boys still have chores (although I tend to help them do them or just do the chores for them whenever I have the chance), they still have their one hour of semi-structured school (which will probably be the last thing to go because my husband still can't/won't accept unschooling)and my husband still insists on TV and video game controls in regards to ratings and the amount of time spent watching or playing.

-=-This is not intended to encourage people to use math lessons or to teach reading.-=-

And the math lessons are the things I wanted to give up first, but my husband and I are still arguing about that one. But I have faith.....

Rebecca

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Pamela Sorooshian

26 Sep 2005, at 12:03pm

Rebecca --

Nobody here can tell you exactly what to do - nobody knows exactly
what you're really doing. We can only make guesses, based on how you
describe it, using words. So - ALWAYS see what you read here in that
light. This is a place for "ideas," but not for a "blueprint."

YOU have to decide if YOU think that might be how the boys are taking
it. And then read all the ideas and you decide what sounds right and
good for your family. Use your own thinking skills on this stuff -
you know your own kids. Maybe none of the ideas given by people here
will work, but you might come up with a variation or combination or
something entirely different that is inspired by ideas you read here.

-pam

On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Rebecca Benson wrote:

>
> So did I inadvertently replace, "You have to go to bed now," with
> "You have to stay up because you CAN stay up?" Do you think that's
> how the boys are taking it and if so, how do I rectify that?
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

26 Sep 2005, at 12:06pm

Are you doing a whole hour of math every day?
You called it semi-structured - what does that mean?

-pam

On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Rebecca Benson wrote:

> Actually, only the bedtime situation has been addressed. The boys
> still have chores (although I tend to help them do them or just do
> the chores for them whenever I have the chance), they still have
> their one hour of semi-structured school (which will probably be
> the last thing to go because my husband still can't/won't accept
> unschooling)and my husband still insists on TV and video game
> controls in regards to ratings and the amount of time spent
> watching or playing.
>
> -=-This is not intended to encourage people to use math lessons or
> to teach reading.-=-
>
>
>
> And the math lessons are the things I wanted to give up first, but
> my husband and I are still arguing about that one. But I have
> faith.....
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

26 Sep 2005, at 2:01pm

In a message dated 9/26/05 9:45:37 AM, rjpbenson@... writes:

> -=-I just don't understand how I'm supposed to give them the control,
> without letting them know that it's theirs. -=-
>

Because you're still thinking in terms of control, you feel controlled.
They feel relief from control (which might be inevitable for a while).

Don't "give them the control," undo the control.

It's kind of like leaving the idea of "teaching" behind. If you go from
teaching them to telling them they're their own teachers, and they should teach
themselves, your lives are still based on the idea of and ghosts of teachers
and teaching.

Change to learning.

Change from "control" to "principle"--what is sleeping for? When should
people sleep and why should people sleep?

-=-My husband had mentioned that it seemed like our 13yo, Logan, wanted us to
tell him what time to go to bed, but when I've suggested that maybe he should
go to bed since he looks tired or is yawning a lot, he says no. So then what
should I do? -=-

Not feel rejected when he doesn't accept your suggestions as "telling him
what time"? If you say, "Are you tired?" or "When do you need to be up
tomorrow?" then you're giving him input he can regard or not without rejecting you.
If you say "Maybe you should go to bed" and then feel rejected if he
doesn't, you've created something where there doesn't need to be something. Not
only does there not need to be something, there needs to be nothing.

There's a zen problem for you. <g>

Holly got the foil off a Dove miniature the other day that said "You're
allowed to do nothing."
That's a good one! Some people could interpret to mean the same as "you're
not allowed to do anything," but I don't think that's what was intended. <g>

-=-I've explained to the boys that the only way they can stay up later than
everyone else is if they are respectful of everyone who is sleeping.-=-

Is that the phrasing you used, "be respectful"? Maybe be way more specific:
"If we don't hear you," or "If it seems from the outside or the next room
that you're asleep."

-=-I'm not sure why you would think that that is what has happened. -=-

Because of things you wrote. But not just you. People who come and
communicate some for of "I've read what you wrote and I DID WHAT YOU SAID and now my
life sucks."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Benson

27 Sep 2005, at 8:36am

I know, I know. I just feel so confused about what I'm doing because this is so new to me. Also, I'm having to hold back from completely following my instincts since my husband is not really in favor of any of things that I want to do and so it's a constant compromise between what I feel is best for the kids and my husband's much more conservative views. But you are totally right. No one can know what is going in my home and with my sons but me and I need to have a little more faith in my own perceptions. Thanks for the wake up call.
Rebecca

Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
Rebecca --

Nobody here can tell you exactly what to do - nobody knows exactly
what you're really doing. We can only make guesses, based on how you
describe it, using words. So - ALWAYS see what you read here in that
light. This is a place for "ideas," but not for a "blueprint."

YOU have to decide if YOU think that might be how the boys are taking
it. And then read all the ideas and you decide what sounds right and
good for your family. Use your own thinking skills on this stuff -
you know your own kids. Maybe none of the ideas given by people here
will work, but you might come up with a variation or combination or
something entirely different that is inspired by ideas you read here.

-pam

On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Rebecca Benson wrote:

>
> So did I inadvertently replace, "You have to go to bed now," with
> "You have to stay up because you CAN stay up?" Do you think that's
> how the boys are taking it and if so, how do I rectify that?
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Benson

27 Sep 2005, at 8:49am

My 13yo does a couple of pages of Key to Algebra every couple of days and the other days we do math riddles, play games (Monopoly, Equate, Yahtzee) or he cooks or practices origami. He actually chose to do the algebra on his own after reading a Newsweek article about this college student who works in a factory over summer breaks. He told me that he really does want to go to college and so we sat down and looked at some of the requirements for admission to some of our local colleges, so I think of his math as still being unschooling. But he does Vocabulary from Classical Roots for about 15 minutes a day and then all of us sit down and read one of the history stories from Story of the World and then he and his brother can choose to do any of the different activities if they want to. That's it for him.

My 9yo is using Saxon 54. I usually just sit down with him, we read over the lesson together and then he does the practice problems and usually about five problems from the lesson. If he just wants to give me the answers orally that's fine, and if he seems to understand the principle right off the bat, then he won't even do the problems from the lesson. We do "book math" a couple of times a week and then the rest of the time he plays MathBlaster or Totally Tut or Subtraction Shark, etc. He does history with his brother and I, and occasionally I'll ask him to do some spelling puzzles or we'll play Alphabug Soup or Scrabble. That's pretty much it.

So we're not very structured and if there is something more interesting going on, or if the boys are reading a good book that they just can't put down or are playing a game (not a video game or watching TV because my husband is still against these things before 5pm), then we'll just skip "lessons" for the day. I would eventually just like to skip them altogether, but my husband is taking some time to get what I'm trying to say about unschooling.

Rebecca

Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

Are you doing a whole hour of math every day?
You called it semi-structured - what does that mean?

-pam

On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Rebecca Benson wrote:

> Actually, only the bedtime situation has been addressed. The boys
> still have chores (although I tend to help them do them or just do
> the chores for them whenever I have the chance), they still have
> their one hour of semi-structured school (which will probably be
> the last thing to go because my husband still can't/won't accept
> unschooling)and my husband still insists on TV and video game
> controls in regards to ratings and the amount of time spent
> watching or playing.
>
> -=-This is not intended to encourage people to use math lessons or
> to teach reading.-=-
>
>
>
> And the math lessons are the things I wanted to give up first, but
> my husband and I are still arguing about that one. But I have
> faith.....
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Benson

27 Sep 2005, at 9:09am

You know that feeling you get when it feels like a lightbulb has just clicked on in your head and you finally "get" something? That is the feeling I had when I read this post! I feel so Zen!

What I said to the boys in terms of staying up late was that as long as they didn't wake anyone else they could stay up, so no roughhousing, loud talking, opening and closing of doors a million times(all of our bedrooms and the den are all down the same hallway),etc.

-=-People who come and communicate some form of "I've read what you wrote and I DID WHAT YOU SAID and now my life sucks."-=-

For some reason the above line just cracked me up! I don't feel that way at all, though. Sometimes I DO find myself feeling that if I could just copy your life or Pam's or Joyce's then I would be doing things "right" but that's not realistic or even what I really want. I love my life, I just always am looking for ways to bring more peace and joy into my home and family. Unschooling is the way to that. Thanks.

Rebecca

SandraDodd@... wrote:

In a message dated 9/26/05 9:45:37 AM, rjpbenson@... writes:

> -=-I just don't understand how I'm supposed to give them the control,
> without letting them know that it's theirs. -=-
>

Because you're still thinking in terms of control, you feel controlled.
They feel relief from control (which might be inevitable for a while).

Don't "give them the control," undo the control.

It's kind of like leaving the idea of "teaching" behind. If you go from
teaching them to telling them they're their own teachers, and they should teach
themselves, your lives are still based on the idea of and ghosts of teachers
and teaching.

Change to learning.

Change from "control" to "principle"--what is sleeping for? When should
people sleep and why should people sleep?

-=-My husband had mentioned that it seemed like our 13yo, Logan, wanted us to
tell him what time to go to bed, but when I've suggested that maybe he should
go to bed since he looks tired or is yawning a lot, he says no. So then what
should I do? -=-

Not feel rejected when he doesn't accept your suggestions as "telling him
what time"? If you say, "Are you tired?" or "When do you need to be up
tomorrow?" then you're giving him input he can regard or not without rejecting you.
If you say "Maybe you should go to bed" and then feel rejected if he
doesn't, you've created something where there doesn't need to be something. Not
only does there not need to be something, there needs to be nothing.

There's a zen problem for you. <g>

Holly got the foil off a Dove miniature the other day that said "You're
allowed to do nothing."
That's a good one! Some people could interpret to mean the same as "you're
not allowed to do anything," but I don't think that's what was intended. <g>

-=-I've explained to the boys that the only way they can stay up later than
everyone else is if they are respectful of everyone who is sleeping.-=-

Is that the phrasing you used, "be respectful"? Maybe be way more specific:
"If we don't hear you," or "If it seems from the outside or the next room
that you're asleep."

-=-I'm not sure why you would think that that is what has happened. -=-

Because of things you wrote. But not just you. People who come and
communicate some for of "I've read what you wrote and I DID WHAT YOU SAID and now my
life sucks."

Sandra

[
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

27 Sep 2005, at 12:23pm

Sounds like sort of fun - math riddles and so on. You might look at
Marilyn Burns books - "Math for Smarty Pants" and "The I Hate
Mathematics Book" for activities, as well as "Family Math" - the one
for middle school years has algebra activities, by the way. But - a
good move toward unschooling might be to ditch the Saxon! Do you HAVE
to use Saxon with the 9 yo? Can you find something that is less
stultifying and less likely to make him end up absolutely HATING
math? Because that IS what seems to happen with so many kids who use
Saxon.

If anybody has not looked at Julie Brennan's "Living Math" website -
it is so wonderful, you really should browse around there! Julie is a
homeschooling mom in San Diego - doesn't quite consider herself an
unschooler - but she's moved more and more that direction over the
years.

<www.livingmath.net>

-pam

On Sep 27, 2005, at 5:49 AM, Rebecca Benson wrote:

> So we're not very structured and if there is something more
> interesting going on, or if the boys are reading a good book that
> they just can't put down or are playing a game (not a video game or
> watching TV because my husband is still against these things before
> 5pm), then we'll just skip "lessons" for the day. I would
> eventually just like to skip them altogether, but my husband is
> taking some time to get what I'm trying to say about unschooling.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Benson

28 Sep 2005, at 8:35am

We've already ditched the Saxon for my older son - because he hated it - but I had all the Saxon stuff here at the house and I hated not to use when it cost so much money. Yes, I know, the kids are more important than cash, but it's hard to justify (to my husband) spending additional money on math stuff when we spent a small fortune on the Saxon. My husband grumbles and groans about the costs of homeschooling as it is. I have very little of the typical homeschool stuff now, but I like to get books, videos, toys and museum memberships that I think the kids will enjoy, so my husband is constantly pointing out to me that "public school is free." HA! Not only did we have all sorts of stuff we had to pay for when the kids went to ps, but the emotional cost was indescribeable, but he just doesn't get it. Yet.

Anyway, I've decided that I'm going to put the Saxon aside and just spend $15 a month on the books you mentioned. When we lived in New Mexico I checked out all of them from the local library, but in this town's tiny library they don't have them.

Thanks for the website. I'm going to check it out today.
Rebecca

Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
-=-But - a good move toward unschooling might be to ditch the Saxon! Do you HAVE to use Saxon with the 9 yo? Can you find something that is less stultifying and less likely to make him end up absolutely HATING math? Because that IS what seems to happen with so many kids who use Saxon.-=-

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

soggyboysmom

28 Sep 2005, at 10:19am

--- In [email protected], Rebecca Benson
<rjpbenson@y...> wrote:

> Anyway, I've decided that I'm going to put the Saxon aside and
>just spend $15 a month on the books you mentioned. When we lived in
>New Mexico I checked out all of them from the local library, but in
>this town's tiny library they don't have them.
>

[email protected]

28 Sep 2005, at 10:27am

In a message dated 9/28/05 8:20:56 AM, debra.rossing@... writes:

> Any chance at interlibrary loans or anything like that? Then again, if
> you buy and read stuff and then maybe in 5 or 10 years (when you get
> done re-reading it) DONATE it to the library for future unschoolers.
>

Libraries, unfortunately, tend to sell their donated stuff instead of making
it available to anyone. Maybe future unschoolers could buy it and read it,
but aren't we talking about Saxon math? <g>

There are places online to buy and sell such things, and there are freecycle
lists. There are charter schools and homeschool co-ops that might actually
use it.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

soggyboysmom

28 Sep 2005, at 10:53am

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> Libraries, unfortunately, tend to sell their donated stuff instead
>of making
> it available to anyone. Maybe future unschoolers could buy it
>and read it,
> but aren't we talking about Saxon math? <g>
>> Sandra

Uh, I hope not - what I was referring to was if recommended books on
unschooling (John Holt et al) end up getting purchased because they're
not readily available in the local library, then when they have been
read and re-read and absorbed and become more of a shelf sitter than a
ready reference, it might be time to find some way to pass them along
to the next generation of folks who are asking the same questions.

Of course, it could be unnecessary in few decades as unschooling
becomes more visible and we start getting all these grown unschooled
kids (who are just starting to reach the 18-25 demographic now, by and
large) starting to have families and all and then there'd possibly be
second generation unschooled kids. In a few generations, there'd be no
more grandparents saying "I walked to school in 10 feet of snow uphill
both ways..." lol

--Deb

Rebecca Benson

29 Sep 2005, at 8:47am

This particular library doesn't do interlibrary loan for children's books, but I've decided to pay the $40 to get a one-year library card for the OKC library system which is huge.
Rebecca

soggyboysmom <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], Rebecca Benson
<rjpbenson@y...> wrote:

> Anyway, I've decided that I'm going to put the Saxon aside and
>just spend $15 a month on the books you mentioned. When we lived in
>New Mexico I checked out all of them from the local library, but in
>this town's tiny library they don't have them.
>

Any chance at interlibrary loans or anything like that? Then again, if
you buy and read stuff and then maybe in 5 or 10 years (when you get
done re-reading it) DONATE it to the library for future unschoolers.

--Deb

(which reminds me I need to plan on getting 2 copies of Rue's book -
one for me and one for our hs support group's lending library - gotta
get the good stuff in there somehow...)

"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

29 Sep 2005, at 9:32am

--- In [email protected], Rebecca Benson
<rjpbenson@y...> wrote:

> This particular library doesn't do interlibrary loan for children's
>books, but I've decided to pay the $40 to get a one-year library card
>for the OKC library system which is huge.
> Rebecca
>

Where in the OKC area are you? DS was born in OKC, Mercy Hospital
specifically as we were living on the Edmond border of OKC at the time.

--Deb