Annette Naake

Someone wrote (and not all that recently; I'm on digest):

With the written word
facing him at every turn, trying to let go of your expectations would be the
best thing for him. The more worried you are, the more you try to help, the
more
tense he'll feel and will remain stagnant. Trust that he'll figure it out
and
just sit back and watch.

Basically, I agree with this -- I would totally back off pushing reading on
him. But do offer to read to him, no matter how old he is, and do allow him
to see that YOU enjoy reading. If you do, of course. I have noticed that if
kids have a good vocabulary, they catch on to reading faster. So anything
that builds vocabulary is going to help in the long run: plays, songs,
jokes, poems... heck, talking.

But this brings me to another point. There are people on this list who
apparently know 16yos who can't or don't read. I think that would really
bother me. To those of you who are sure that if we just surround our kids
with books, etc., and then sit back and watch the magic happen: What if it
doesn't? Is it acceptable to become an adult in our society who just doesn't
read? Would you want to allow your kid to go out into the world so
unprepared? Aren't you worried they'll be taken advantage of, or be unable
to negotiate contracts/instructions/newspapers?

Annette


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Bronwen

Hi Annette!

you said:

<<But this brings me to another point. There are people on this list who
apparently know 16yos who can't or don't read. I think that would really
bother me. To those of you who are sure that if we just surround our kids
with books, etc., and then sit back and watch the magic happen: What if it
doesn't? Is it acceptable to become an adult in our society who just doesn't
read? Would you want to allow your kid to go out into the world so
unprepared? Aren't you worried they'll be taken advantage of, or be unable to negotiate contracts/instructions/newspapers?<<


I'm up late, my baby is asleep on my lap, and I am amazed to have a little time (but I would really like to be making some "bad" food to eat- ugh).

This unschooling thing- oftentimes understanding it is not really like "seeing that point", or seeing the flowers or the trees in a forest..

it is more like jumping out into space and looking down on the whole world instead of just the forest..it is a paradigm shift. Your whole framework is different-.

the old framework is full of ideas we have because we are such good students of our culture, we know it so well, it is not even a "knowing" anymore, more like our bones have it written on them. we dont question our premises.

So I think, when I read your question, I am not "doing unschooling" because of a result I am going for (i.e. magical reading). It is not a "method" that I chose to "educate" my kids. Because the focus is not my kids- it is me- it is me getting rid of my idea that I have the right, authority, responsibility, to force my ideas and adgendas onto another person's life. I dont "educate" anyone (faulty premise)- people "educate" themselves. People can't eat for one another, and they can't learn for one another either.

It is me getting rid of my idea that I have to "worry" about something that doesnt bother my child, that I have to give them help, ideas or things they didnt ask for.

And it is also realizing that when they do really need help, they *will* make it evident.

It is unlearning the idea that kids are not capable of leading their own life, being their own person- it is learning that kids REALLY ARE REAL PEOPLE- just like me.

It is learning that when we give up the idea that we have to live our life AND our children's life, we experience true freedom ourselves.

Our codependant, dysfunctional society has few examples of real trust- so we cant really fit it in our brains. BUT when we experience it first hand (not just read it in an e-mail :-), but really feel it, and our kids feel our trust, THEN lord have mercy! we are looking at the world from heaven!

Anyway, Im thinking a paradigm shift is in order :-)

Love to you,
Bronwen


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Lorraine Goods

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Annette Naake wrote:

>What if it
> doesn't? Is it acceptable to become an adult in our society who just doesn't
> read? Would you want to allow your kid to go out into the world so
> unprepared? Aren't you worried they'll be taken advantage of, or be unable
> to negotiate contracts/instructions/newspapers?

I am definitely not okay w/the idea of my kid not being able to read at
16. I think reading is a basic skill for survival in this society. My kid
is almost six and he is just starting to read. We do phonics stuff and sound
games every day *at his request*. But even if he weren't into it, I'd
start "making him" at a later age. Not at the age he is now, but certainly
by 10 or so. Yup, you betcha I would! It is the one thing I feel strongly
that he has to learn. Years ago, it was illegal for my ancestors to learn
how to read (we are African American) in this country. I feel it would be
a slap in the face for all their struggles for me to neglect this one
aspect of his upbringing.

Best,
Lynn

Tia Leschke

>
>I am definitely not okay w/the idea of my kid not being able to read at
>16. I think reading is a basic skill for survival in this society. My kid
>is almost six and he is just starting to read. We do phonics stuff and sound
>games every day *at his request*. But even if he weren't into it, I'd
>start "making him" at a later age. Not at the age he is now, but certainly
>by 10 or so. Yup, you betcha I would! It is the one thing I feel strongly
>that he has to learn.

Been there. Done that. It just slowed down his process of learning to
read. And damaged our relationship to boot. I honestly think he would
have read sooner and better if I'd left him alone about it.

I also believe that there have always been and always will be some people
who just aren't academically inclined, people who will always learn in
other ways than reading. I don't think it's right to push these kids into
an academic mold when they could well be the person who invents something
really useful to our society or something. Edison eventually learned to
read. If he'd been made to stay in school and learn academics, we would
probably have missed out on a lot of useful inventions.

My son is able to read what he *has* to, though slowly. I think his
reading will still improve by the time he's ready to leave home, but if it
doesn't, he's still going to be ok.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Lorraine Goods

On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Tia Leschke wrote:

>
> Been there. Done that. It just slowed down his process of learning to
> read. And damaged our relationship to boot.

It's been quite the opposite experience w/us. Our reading "lessons" are
incorporated into our general read-aloud snuggle times and it's been a
good experience for us. Of course, the kid has always been a book hog so I
guess that has something to do w/it. We can literally spend the entire
day reading aloud and he never tires of it; he's just always had a
big love for books and that's why I guess he's so motivated.

>I honestly think have read sooner and better if I'd left him alone about it.

You're probably right, and I'm glad you are taking a more laid back
approach since it seems to be working for him. Obviously, kids are
individuals and have their own learning styles -- just like we do.

Best,
Lynn

Tia Leschke

>
>
>It's been quite the opposite experience w/us. Our reading "lessons" are
>incorporated into our general read-aloud snuggle times and it's been a
>good experience for us. Of course, the kid has always been a book hog so I
>guess that has something to do w/it. We can literally spend the entire
>day reading aloud and he never tires of it; he's just always had a
>big love for books and that's why I guess he's so motivated.

My son was just the same way, only he never asked for phonics and never
wanted to do them. He loved being read to but didn't want to read for
himself yet. If your son asked for phonics and reading games, great. It's
just that you said (I think it was you, could be wrong) there was an age
beyond which you *would* force the issue. That age for me was 12. And it
really was a mistake. (Never mind that it wasn't unschooling.)
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Fetteroll

on 1/29/02 9:31 AM, Lorraine Goods at lg96@... wrote:

> But even if he weren't into it, I'd start "making him" at a later age.

I *do* understand what you're saying, Lynn.

This is really more of a message to others with the same fears, rather than
directed at you, Lynn. More a discussion of the *idea* of delayed reading
being equated with illiteracy.

*If* someone wanted to get past the fear that their child wouldn't read if
they waited too long, there are *plenty* of stories, particularly at
Unschooling.com, that can assure people that if the printed word is a fun,
useful part of their lives that they will read when they're developmentally
ready. We get filled up with too many scary stories of kids hitting 16 and
being illiterate, and the *cause* that's pointed to is because the school
failed them, because it didn't have the proper programs at the proper time.
But it just isn't true. It's because of the pressure to read by a certain
age (4th grade), the stigma of being singled out because you can't do what
"everyone" else can, the tedium of being forced to do something you don't
want to do yet and have no interest in. When that environment is removed,
kids *do* (honestly! :-) learn to read when they are developmentally ready
and they feel reading is worthwhile to *them*.

School and society fill us with so many certainties about how children learn
but that really just aren't true outside the setting of school.

Joyce


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Lorraine Goods

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Fetteroll wrote:

>When that environment is removed,
> kids *do* (honestly! :-) learn to read when they are developmentally ready
> and they feel reading is worthwhile to *them*.

> Joyce

I hear what you're saying -- at least I think I do. However, what if that
person decides they're not ready until they're 30? Is that okay? How does
that affect one's ability to function as an adult in society? This is not
a perfect world. Sometimes, my feeling is, ya gotta have some survival
skills.

WRT learning things when one is ready, I offer myself as an example. I had
guitar lessons as a kid and kind of burnt out on them. Recently, I've
picked it up again and am having a great time playing and learning. Which
is great. I don't see guitar playing as an essential skill for surviving
in this society. (It is good for my soul, however!) I don't need to know
guitar to maintain a bank account, sign a contract, have a business, get
a job. For most of these things, however, it's pretty necessary, for the
most part, that one knows how to read. Unless one wants to constantly rely
on the help of others. Shouldn't we help our children get along w/out
us? Also, I posit that it's easier to learn some things when one is young.
Like riding a bicycle.

Best,
Lynn

Groundhoggirl

On Wednesday, January 30, 2002, at 12:48 PM, Lorraine Goods wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Fetteroll wrote:
>
>> When that environment is removed,
>> kids *do* (honestly! :-) learn to read when they are developmentally
>> ready
>> and they feel reading is worthwhile to *them*.
>
>> Joyce
> =============
> I hear what you're saying -- at least I think I do. However, what if
> that
> person decides they're not ready until they're 30? Is that okay? How
> does
> that affect one's ability to function as an adult in society? This is
> not
> a perfect world. Sometimes, my feeling is, ya gotta have some survival
> skills.
> ================

I agree with you, Joyce. Unless someone is unschooled in a very
restrictive and/or exclusive environment (which, I think, is contrary to
unschooling), I think it would highly unlikely that anyone would not
find the desire to learn how to read by their late teens or early 20's.
Learning how to function in society on one's own terms - that's a big
part of unschooling to me. IMHO, unschooling allows the person to
determine what the survival skills are and learn those skills on his/her
own terms. It's all about respecting the individual and allowing that
individual to determine what is important and what is not important.

Mimi



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