elana weisberg

Tia,
My daughter, Chloe (ten yr today!!) asked when she was 2 1/2 to have violin
lessons. Of course (LOL) I said no, when you are older....My wiser mother
researched it and found a DSO Dertroit Symphony Orchestra member to instruct
her little one. Well, Chloe became an accomplished violinist, she loves the
music, plays her heart out, alone. She has never wanted to perform for
groups. She plays at retirement homes, she doesn't consider them a "group"
and in her room with our oldest, the celloist. I was wrong, she need not be
older, I only needed to be more open. I hope your granddaughter gets the
opportunity.
Mary- You sound so wonderful to take your son on a "field trip" to
explore.....an inspiration. Thank you, where are you going to visit?
Dawn, I too have felt picked on at times, please know you are supported in
one way or another, not everyone shares the same opinions. And I too have
misunderstood some posts. Keep posting.
Elana
hs. ashley 13, jason (RAD) 11, chloe 10 (TODAY!!) and Gavi 3 1/2 in dusty AZ

[email protected]

>>I'm realizing that somehow, I need my students to see me as a
singleresource in their quest to learn violin. That they also need to
read,listen, study, experiment, search the internet, etc. They need to
thinkabout why some things work and some things just don't work for them, and
howto fix their own problems. But how do I get them beyond the "teach
me"mentality to learn themselves? How do I give these people some
direction,without it becoming just more assignments that I give for the week,
addedonto everything else.


<<

I have a daughter who wants to play the violin. She's taken lessons, gotten
bored, and dropped the lessons.She didn't drop the violin, really, but her
progress dropped to an imperceptible level. She takes it out, occasionally,
plays stuff from her old beginning book and painstakingly picks out pieces
she absolutely loves - from musical theater. The process is very very very
slow.

IF she had a teacher - which she wants, by the way - who would let her REALLY
pick her own music - even if it is far beyond her ability - she'd stick with
it. What she wants is a teacher to help her out with the music she's
interested in playing - not a teacher to put her through her paces -
following the standard systematic progression through the standard lesson
books.

I've talked to teachers. They say she's being lazy and that, if she wants to
play, she has to pay the same price they did - go through the required steps.
They say that if she doesn't have that self-discipline (or get it imposed by
me) that she won't be able to learn.

--pam


National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>IF she had a teacher - which she wants, by the way - who would let her REALLY
>pick her own music - even if it is far beyond her ability - she'd stick with
>it. What she wants is a teacher to help her out with the music she's
>interested in playing - not a teacher to put her through her paces -
>following the standard systematic progression through the standard lesson
>books.

I really think it depends on what she's trying to achieve. If she wants to
be a classical violinist, there are certain techniques that have to be
learned. And there are a lot of "bad habits" which will cause her nothing
but grief later on . . . *if* that's the kind of playing she wants to
do. If that isn't her goal, then she needs a teacher who isn't classically
oriented, maybe someone who is a fiddler or something. The teacher can
still help her avoid the habits that will interfere with most kinds of
playing, but it wouldn't need to be nearly as rigid. For instance,
learning scales can really help a person's playing. I'm doing them now on
the cello because I want to make it easier to play what I want to
play. But it certainly doesn't need to come first.


>I've talked to teachers. They say she's being lazy and that, if she wants to
>play, she has to pay the same price they did - go through the required steps.
>They say that if she doesn't have that self-discipline (or get it imposed by
>me) that she won't be able to learn.

From what I've read, your daughter has a huge amount of
self-discipline. What she needs is someone who can show her how to apply
that self-discipline to the kind of playing she wants to do.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Alan & Brenda Leonard

> I really think it depends on what she's trying to achieve. If she wants to
> be a classical violinist, there are certain techniques that have to be
> learned. And there are a lot of "bad habits" which will cause her nothing
> but grief later on . . . *if* that's the kind of playing she wants to
> do.

With all due respect, Tia, I truly believe (and I'm probably in the minority
believing this, but I do anyhow) that you can learn any technique you need
from anything. Look at it this way: there are 100's of method books out
there, and most teachers pick one they like. And it works (at least to an
extent). But every teacher picks a different one, and those work, too. So
what difference would it make if Pam's daughter learned all her violin
technique from her favorite broadway showtunes or from an incredibly dull
tome like Dont, which is a great method book, should you like method books.
(I don't, and therefore I don't Dont!) Just because the tunes are fun
doesn't mean she should play them badly and learn bad habits. If she wants
to be a classical violinist someday, she'll end up having great musicianship
and music appreciation that a method book won't give her.

Pam, since your daughter is into showtunes, you'll probably appreciate this
aside. I've played The Music Man enough times now to know it cold, but I
always have to laugh at the best joke in the show, in my mind, which is
musical, not verbal. When Professor Harold Hill is getting everybody riled
up about having a boys' band, he starts to sing the famous "76 Trombones"
song. The very first time the tune is introduced, (76 Trombones led the big
parade, etc.), it's with voice and *violin*. I love it.

brenda
who's enjoying just how many cello players there seem to be on this list!!
:)

Alan & Brenda Leonard

Pam,

I'm so glad you're not at my house, or even in the same country I am right
now. Because I am screaming very, very loudly.

The kids who actually know what music they want to play, drag in stuff they
find at the mall, clunk through christmas carols or whatever, learn FASTER
than anybody else. They learn the "odd notes" -- the ones you have to reach
outside your normal position to play -- because music doesn't care where the
notes fall on your violin, composers pick what sounds good to them. And of
course if you already know the tune, it's so much easier to play it.

I'll teach your daughter .... how many thousand miles did you say you were
from Germany? <g> I wonder if you can teach violin on email.......


>I ALWAYS wanted my cello teachers to just PLAY for me.
>I bet the violin and
>cello teachers feel like that's not part of the "instruction" and that
>they're taking your money for instruction, not for listening to them play.

Yep. That's what I always end up thinking. Which is why I end up teaching
1 half-hour lesson every hour. I can't do it in 30 minutes anyway, and then
kids think *I* should play, too!

Thanks for good ideas. I need to remember to push students to tell me what
they like musically and what they want to play and haven't bothered to
mention. And we both need to play at lessons.

brenda


> I have a daughter who wants to play the violin. She's taken lessons, gotten
> bored, and dropped the lessons.She didn't drop the violin, really, but her
> progress dropped to an imperceptible level. She takes it out, occasionally,
> plays stuff from her old beginning book and painstakingly picks out pieces
> she absolutely loves - from musical theater. The process is very very very
> slow.
>
> IF she had a teacher - which she wants, by the way - who would let her REALLY
> pick her own music - even if it is far beyond her ability - she'd stick with
> it. What she wants is a teacher to help her out with the music she's
> interested in playing - not a teacher to put her through her paces -
> following the standard systematic progression through the standard lesson
> books.
>
> I've talked to teachers. They say she's being lazy and that, if she wants to
> play, she has to pay the same price they did - go through the required steps.
> They say that if she doesn't have that self-discipline (or get it imposed by
> me) that she won't be able to learn.
>
> --pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/02 10:24:59 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Lately, I have to "remind" her to practice, and of her commitment,
and it's becoming a real pain! I've told her that it is her choice
to continue with the instrument or not, but if she's going to
continue, practice is part of the package deal. >>

Why is practice part of the package deal? I know that isn't the traditional
way to view this, but maybe she's getting exactly what she needs right now
from just the lessons.
When practice is required or pushed it becomes a chore/drudgery and the child
is going to quit getting what they need from it.
She may want to stop for a while. Don't push, don't cajole, let her use her
instrument in the way that best suits her needs. It should be about enjoyment
of making music, not shoulds and have to's.
That's the best way to ruin a joyful experience.

"She mentions she wants to now play flute, but we shelled out big
bucks for the violin. (Her best friend just changed from playing
piano to violin) I am not willing to keep buying (or renting)
instruments because she's changing her mind like the weather. "

But isn't that what people call "well rounded"? I understand if you don't
have the money, but if there's any creative way to swing it, the more
instruments the BETTER!!
Collect instruments, let children dabble with them often, fill your home with
joyful sound and they will get joy from the process, instead of stress.
I am only speaking from personal experience.
Had my parents quit nagging me about lessons, I would have continued with my
instruments (flute and piano) much longer. I also would have come back to
them time and time again.
Learning an instrument is not necessarily a linear process. Most people like
to dabble and the learning comes in spurts (just like with other topics).
Be her assistant in this, it should always be their choice.

Ren

[email protected]

I'm curious about the idea of <really> unschooling music. For the last year
or so, I've been wanting to learn to play piano, guitar, cello, steel drums
and some sort of wind instrument all at the same time! I don't have time for
lessons or regular practice. I want to just dabble and be able to play more
as time goes on. I can read treble clef (played violin as a kid) so I can
tap out one hand on the piano. I got the Mrs. Stewart's Piano Lesson book
from the old John Holt Bookstore thinking that would be what I'm looking for.
But it's not. It's too sequential. Feels like Bob books for piano <g>.
But I'm interested in learning. I just want to do it on my terms. I think
about all that very schoolish stuff that almost always goes with lessons:
emphasis on position so you don't develop "bad habits" ("you must hold your
pencil this way"), scales (drills), practice, starting with boring vapid
stuff, sequential learning.

I want the unschooling version. What does that look like? Does it really
matter if I don't use my little finger to play piano? I know there must be
thousands of music learning myths out there, just as there are with reading
and writing. But I guess I'm a little awed by musicians and wonder if maybe
there are some truths/basics I really should know? (I'm not asking about
specifics, just whether there are any absolutes.)

Pam T.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> I want the unschooling version. What does that look like?

I don't know if there are any absolutes but what my son likes is finding
a song he wants to play, having someone play it for him, a demonstration,
and then play it himself from there. He's not interested in anything
else right now but learning the songs he likes. His first teacher let
him do this, she would play the next song in the music book and ask if he
liked it, if he did they'd play it, if he didn't they'd skip it and it
was ok if he changed his mind.

He's been collecting sheet music of songs he knows he likes already and
has learned on his own to play a few, but it's easier for him if he can
look at someone else play it first, just watch them, and the rest comes
to him more smoothly.

That's what his unschooling version of learning music looks like, but
it's hard to find folks who support his learning style. Adult music
teachers here are so rigid.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/18/02 7:30:01 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< I want the unschooling version. What does that look like? Does it really
matter if I don't use my little finger to play piano? I know there must be
thousands of music learning myths out there, just as there are with reading
and writing. But I guess I'm a little awed by musicians and wonder if maybe
there are some truths/basics I really should know? (I'm not asking about
specifics, just whether there are any absolutes.) >>

Well, that depends on what you want out of it.
A lot of the "rules" are for your own benefit, like piano fingering. Just
makes it easier to play a piece that covers more than a few notes.
But are you interested in playing well, or just goofing around?
I think one of the better methods of learning quickly and making an
instrument useful (at least with piano and guitar) is to learn chords.
You could be playing music that is familiar, very, very quickly and it helps
you understand the note combinations.
There are some absolutes of course, notes have names, there are positions on
the instrument that match those names, there are better methods than others
for producing sound, and music theory can be helpful (to a point). Knowing
what Fortissimo is could be helpful, or what a Fifth is....
But I think understanding what it is you want out of it will help you decide
how much you really want to know.
Get a book that teaches you chords, that's my advice. Then dabble and play to
your hearts content. When you reach a point that you need more, then a
teacher or another book can be sought out.
And read John Holt's "Never too Late" about him teaching himself violin.

Ren

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/18/02 6:57:09 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:

<< And read John Holt's "Never too Late" about him teaching himself violin. >>

cello, wasn't it?


Holly's taking violin/fiddle lessons, and last week Keith took her to the
lesson, I didn't. The teacher told Holly if she didn't practice every day
she wouldn't get better. Keith didn't argue. Now today we don't know who's
going back, but Holly hasn't practiced. I really don't want her shamed.
Usually, I goof around with her, but I've been mostly in the bed with my foot
up, doped up some, or watching a movie, or snoozing, or reading. I can't do
what I usually do.

So I'm grumpy and will, next time I can get around enough to do so, take the
teacher some unschooling information, tell her I am unwilling to compromise,
and risk having her either learn something new or say Holly's not a good
student for her anymore.

I would say more now, but my foot wants back on its pillow.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

Agreed with most of this post.


>And read John Holt's "Never too Late" about him teaching himself violin.

It was cello, and he did take lessons. But he treated his teacher as a
learning resource rather than typical teacher. That book was part of my
inspiration for starting the cello at age 50. I can't afford a teacher,
though I do have friends who play well to ask questions of. I'm well aware
that I'm probably acquiring some bad habits, but I figure I can unlearn
them if the start to get in the way.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Alan & Brenda Leonard

> But I guess I'm a little awed by musicians and wonder if maybe
> there are some truths/basics I really should know? (I'm not asking about
> specifics, just whether there are any absolutes.)
>
> Pam T.

Dear Pam,

Please don't be awed by musicians. We're just like everybody else, only a
fair bit wierder! <g> I was "properly trained" on cello and piano, and
learned violin by myself. Guess which one I have the most fun playing....!
Here's the absolutes I can think of:

1. You have to spend time playing. Call it practicing if you like, but you
don't get any better if you don't spend time with the instrument.

2. You get better faster with some sort of advice. Find somebody who's
better than you, and go see them periodically. Lots of people like to do
this weekly, but if semi-annually is better for you, fine. (I've had 3
violin lessons in 5 years, and like it that way, thanks!)

3. You get better a whole lot faster if you think about what you do.
Practicing with a comic book on the music stand instead of music (like I did
in middle school) does not help! Thinking about how you feel and whether
what you're doing feels good or bad, natural or unatural, comfortable or
uncomfortable, and what you can do to improve the things you don't like
helps a whole lot. (In my experience, most people get steps 1 & 2 and
totally miss this one.)

4. No matter how good you get, there will always be somebody younger and
better. So what. If you're not in it for the fun of it, get out!

5. Just like anything else, you will learn by leaps and plateaus. Some
days it's hard to pick up the music because you feel stuck in the desert and
it's too hard. This too shall eventually pass; see #1!

6. Music notation is a system of writing. It's not any more complicated
than regular writing, but it has different rules. Learn the rules and your
life is easier. However, there is lots of learning that can be done outside
knowing how to read.

How's that? I've always wondered if one could teach cello by email; wanna
try? ;) I love your list -- which wind instrument? Someday I'm going to
learn oboe; it's been on my list since college. Have fun!

brenda

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/19/02 7:41:52 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< It was cello, and he did take lessons. But he treated his teacher as a
learning resource rather than typical teacher. >>

I stand corrected...it's been many years since I perused that book. Never
really read it in depth either.
I still consider that self-taught though. Using a teacher or other resources
does not take away from the self taught aspect......although it's not the
same as just teaching yourself without any outside input.
I think instruments are hard to learn well without some kind of teacher at
some point.

Ren

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/19/2002 11:18:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:


> << It was cello, and he did take lessons. But he treated his teacher as a
> learning resource rather than typical teacher. >>
>
> I stand corrected...it's been many years since I perused that book. Never
> really read it in depth either.
> I still consider that self-taught though. Using a teacher or other
> resources
> does not take away from the self taught aspect......although it's not the
> same as just teaching yourself without any outside input.
> I think instruments are hard to learn well without some kind of teacher at
> some point.
>
> Ren
>

2 cents: I know I'm gonna like this group > : )
Fiona


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/19/02 9:18:16 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:

<< Using a teacher or other resources
does not take away from the self taught aspect..... >>

Yes it does. <g>

<<although it's not the
same as just teaching yourself without any outside input.>>

Except for what you can call it.

<<I think instruments are hard to learn well without some kind of teacher at
some point.>>

I think if you're trying to learn saxophone, you can watch others play, but
somewhere at the beginning somebody (another reeds player) might have to talk
to you about soaking the reed, and how to put it on. OR you could read it in
a book, or get a video tape. But the book or video tape won't say "tilt this
at an angle a little bit and it will be 100% easier." ("This" being chin or
wrist or thumb.)

I've helped people get over a hump with recorder-playing problems by e-mail
or phone, because I've done it a long time and helped other people play. I
hate to "teach music." I'm not very good at it at all, or else I don't want
to help people who want the weekly spoonfeeding that "teaching music" can be.


But I think once someone asks someone to teach them to play recorder, or
guitar, or piano, and they follow that person's step-by-step, if they go back
any more than twice or so, they need to give up the "self taught" business.

I konw there are degrees. Someone might say "self taught" about creative
writing if he took years of English classes but none were called "creative
writing." Or someone might be a self-taught backhoe operator if he just got
on one and someone said "this does that, that does this, practice in this
sand pit," instead of taking a backhoe certification course.

The difference between an artist who becomes an artist and one who just takes
art classes, or the difference between a pianist and a piano student is
likely to have to do with how much they did beyond and above the class
assignments.

Doing extra makes you "real" but it doesn't make you self-taught.

Sandra

Lisa M. C. Bentley

> So I'm grumpy and will, next time I can get around enough to do so, take the
> teacher some unschooling information, tell her I am unwilling to compromise,
> and risk having her either learn something new or say Holly's not a good
> student for her anymore.

Do you have to do this sort of thing often? It is wearing me down. Do
you have weblinks of exactly what information you give to people like
this? I have just printed out a few various things and people treat me
like I'm a psycho or something and the don't even give the printouts a
cursory glance. I think, perhaps, that I'm not saying the right thing
and I'm making people defensive of their own parenting/schooling styles.

Thanks!
-Lisa

P.S. Have you been living an unschooling lifestyle with your children
since your first was born, or was it something that you gradually came
to?

Alan & Brenda Leonard

> Holly's taking violin/fiddle lessons, and last week Keith took her to the
> lesson, I didn't. The teacher told Holly if she didn't practice every day
> she wouldn't get better. Keith didn't argue. Now today we don't know who's
> going back, but Holly hasn't practiced. I really don't want her shamed.

Sandra,

I was told "you only have to practice on the days you eat" (S. Suzuki's
favorite) and "if you practice every day, you will eventually get better".
I practiced every day and got tendonitis. You can practice mindlessly every
day and learn terrible habits, and you can practice twice a week, thinking
about what you're doing and how it feels and improve dramatically. It's
probably true that if you practice every single day and really concentrate
every time, you'll get better a LOT faster, but I've never been in the mood
to test that theory... ;)

I've been teacher-less since I finished grad school over a decade ago. I
practice on days I need to. I practice to learn music, or because I really
just feel like playing. I do NOT practice every day. In fact, I have 2
degrees in music and I've rarely practiced every day. I hate practicing!

brenda

Jeff & Kate Kerr

****I was told "you only have to practice on the days you eat" (S.
Suzuki's
favorite) and "if you practice every day, you will eventually get
better".
I practiced every day and got tendonitis. You can practice mindlessly
every
day and learn terrible habits, and you can practice twice a week,
thinking
about what you're doing and how it feels and improve dramatically. It's

probably true that if you practice every single day and really
concentrate
every time, you'll get better a LOT faster, but I've never been in the
mood
to test that theory... ;)
brenda****

This is an interesting thread going here, and I know this isn't about
music, but it is about practicing. My 7yo son's karate instructor was
asking me today about his practicing habits (he's not advancing fast
enough for her) and I started remembering all the posts on music going
around lately. So I said, "Well, when I remind him to practice it
upsets him and makes him feel as if I am nagging him, so I asked him if
he wanted me to do that anymore and he said no. If he's advancing
slowly it's his choice to do that. I'm not concerned with him getting
ahead I just want him to enjoy himself out there." I don't think, from
the look on her face, that any parent has ever said that before. She
said ok and went out on the floor to teach 5 homeschoolers how to spar.
I turned around and was greeted with applause by all the homeschooling
moms there!
Anyway, thanks for the thread, it's helped this family.
Kate

MO Milligans

At 06:00 PM 9/19/02 -0700, you wrote:

>So I said, "Well, when I remind him to practice it upsets him and makes
>him feel as if I am nagging him, so I asked him if he wanted me to do that
>anymore and he said no. If he's advancing slowly it's his choice to do
>that. I'm not concerned with him getting ahead I just want him to enjoy
>himself out there." I don't think, from the look on her face, that any
>parent has ever said that before. She said ok and went out on the floor
>to teach 5 homeschoolers how to spar.
>I turned around and was greeted with applause by all the homeschooling
>moms there!
>Anyway, thanks for the thread, it's helped this family.
>Kate
==
<applause! applause!> Way to go, Kate :)

Todd

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free will" -Rush (and Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html

melly~

This thread should be called "Life lessons"! It's not just about the
violin!! : )
Thanks for the laughs, introspection and food for thought!
melly~

----- Original Message ----- > This is an interesting thread going here, and
I know this isn't about
> music, but it is about practicing. My 7yo son's karate instructor was
> asking me today about his practicing habits (he's not advancing fast
> enough for her) and I started remembering all the posts on music going
> around lately. So I said, "Well, when I remind him to practice it
> upsets him and makes him feel as if I am nagging him, so I asked him if
> he wanted me to do that anymore and he said no. If he's advancing
> slowly it's his choice to do that. I'm not concerned with him getting
> ahead I just want him to enjoy himself out there." I don't think, from
> the look on her face, that any parent has ever said that before. She
> said ok and went out on the floor to teach 5 homeschoolers how to spar.
> I turned around and was greeted with applause by all the homeschooling
> moms there!
> Anyway, thanks for the thread, it's helped this family.
> Kate

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/19/02 3:34:33 PM, cottrellbentley@... writes:

<< P.S. Have you been living an unschooling lifestyle with your children
since your first was born, or was it something that you gradually came
to? >>

I came here from attachment parenting and LLL practice, so it was gradually
to unschooling, but not gradually to treating the children's needs as primary.

-=-> So I'm grumpy and will, next time I can get around enough to do so, take
the
> teacher some unschooling information, tell her I am unwilling to
compromise,
> and risk having her either learn something new or say Holly's not a good
> student for her anymore.

-=-Do you have to do this sort of thing often? -=-

Only when it comes to formal lessons.

First time had to do with the karate school.
Second time, acting classes.
Third time hasn't yet happened, the fiddle teacher.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/19/02 7:07:27 PM, windystreet@... writes:

<< If he's advancing
slowly it's his choice to do that. I'm not concerned with him getting
ahead I just want him to enjoy himself out there. >>

We told the acting teacher that, too. That Holly was there just to have fun,
and all the school examples were wasted and any school-style shaming was
going against what we believed.

Probably the fiddle teacher wants us to "get our money's worth," with Holly
advancing at a quick clip. We will NOT get our money's worth if Holly is
treated as a school kid. I'm sure she's never heard anyone say "We'll pay
you for Holly to do her practicing here; leave her alone about practicing at
home."

And she might have no interest in parents who encourage slacking.

Sandra