Covering the basics
Pat Cald...
Well now Leslie, after reading your post on multiplication, you've just gotten me going again with lots of questions. Your son's difficulty motivating himself to learn certain math basics makes me wonder. Wondering here!
There are several things I can think of that I would like to have learned or would like to learn that I do not want to put the effort into learning *on my own*. Is this because I was taught in ps or is it because self-discipline and self-motivation require a lot of energy and my desire has not reached that level, or is it because I have other responsibilities at this time in my life that take priority?
I used to race my bicycle and had a goal to win a national medal. Every year I followed a very grueling training schedule, by myself, without riding partners because I had a goal to win that medal. After coming in 3rd many years in a row and failing to win gold when I turned 40, I stopped racing. I no longer have a goal to win a medal or train that hard but I would like to be physically fit. I now swim on a masters swim team and need the companionship of other people and the help of a coach to motivate me to exercise. I can no longer do it on my own, even though I have a desire to be fit. Multiplication tables are like exercise and for your son, physics is like winning a national medal. Buying a curriculum to motivate him to do basic math is not the answer because the child still has to *motivate himself* to do work he doesn't really want to do. How can we make it easier for our kids to learn the things that require practice but are not all that much fun?
IMO there is a benefit to knowing the basics. I wish I could build furniture but I was never taught the basics and I have decided not to pursue this as a hobby because it requires too much energy to go back and learn from scratch. I know some women that wish they could cook. They never learned the basics and have decided it is too much trouble to learn now. Can we get bye without these skills? Yes. Would there be more possibilities in life if we all had the basics covered? Yes. It is easier to cover the basics when you are young and have a lot of time. Institutions cover the basics of many areas. How do we provide this for our unschooled children and still unschool?
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There are several things I can think of that I would like to have learned or would like to learn that I do not want to put the effort into learning *on my own*. Is this because I was taught in ps or is it because self-discipline and self-motivation require a lot of energy and my desire has not reached that level, or is it because I have other responsibilities at this time in my life that take priority?
I used to race my bicycle and had a goal to win a national medal. Every year I followed a very grueling training schedule, by myself, without riding partners because I had a goal to win that medal. After coming in 3rd many years in a row and failing to win gold when I turned 40, I stopped racing. I no longer have a goal to win a medal or train that hard but I would like to be physically fit. I now swim on a masters swim team and need the companionship of other people and the help of a coach to motivate me to exercise. I can no longer do it on my own, even though I have a desire to be fit. Multiplication tables are like exercise and for your son, physics is like winning a national medal. Buying a curriculum to motivate him to do basic math is not the answer because the child still has to *motivate himself* to do work he doesn't really want to do. How can we make it easier for our kids to learn the things that require practice but are not all that much fun?
IMO there is a benefit to knowing the basics. I wish I could build furniture but I was never taught the basics and I have decided not to pursue this as a hobby because it requires too much energy to go back and learn from scratch. I know some women that wish they could cook. They never learned the basics and have decided it is too much trouble to learn now. Can we get bye without these skills? Yes. Would there be more possibilities in life if we all had the basics covered? Yes. It is easier to cover the basics when you are young and have a lot of time. Institutions cover the basics of many areas. How do we provide this for our unschooled children and still unschool?
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kolleen
>IMO there is a benefit to knowing the basics. I wish I could buildThis is an interesting subject. Since I too someties *wonder* if my child
>furniture but I was never taught the basics and I have decided not to
>pursue this as a hobby because it requires too much energy to go back and
>learn from scratch. I know some women that wish they could cook. They
>never learned the basics and have decided it is too much trouble to learn
>now. Can we get bye without these skills? Yes. Would there be more
>possibilities in life if we all had the basics covered? Yes. It is
>easier to cover the basics when you are young and have a lot of time.
>Institutions cover the basics of many areas. How do we provide this for
>our unschooled children and still unschool?
>Pat
will or will not learn the basics... then I think... what ARE the basics?
The basics I needed to learn as a kid weren't the ones that the world
needed by the time I was working. I should of been prepared for
technology as opposed to that 'factory' work mentality, or that
'housewife' mentality that they used to give us 'girls'.
So, I guess all I worry is if he learns to read. I think that will be a
given for a long time to come.
After that. I dunno. *shrug*
Maybe the vid games are preparing the next generation, maybe we'll have
'communicators' that will do all my adding/math for me. Instantly. Who
knows?? I can't even imagine. It would be like my grandmother imagining a
telephone before they had them. Yah know?
What are the basics to you?
regards,
kolleen
Leslie Moyer
+ Well now Leslie, after reading your post on multiplication,
+ you've just gotten me going again with lots of questions.
Pat.....wow--you are an intense person! :-) Keeping me on my toes--I like
that! :-) I was up with a throwing-up child last night and am coming down
with some sort of respiratory thing myself...hope you can make heads or
tails out of what I'm about to say!
+ Your
+ son's difficulty motivating himself to learn certain math basics
+ makes me wonder.
I wouldn't say he's having difficulty motivating himself to learn certain
math basics......honestly, I don't see it that way at all. You don't know
my son, so I can see how you might think this. My son just hasn't learned
them YET. They haven't had compelling relevance to him yet. They will when
he needs them for Algebra or for something else and I'm positive he'll learn
them in just seconds or minutes. (Incidentally, even though he hasn't
started the American School algebra course yet, he has done lots of algebra
just because he found it interesting.) He learns so effortlessly, it seems
to me, and I have no doubt that if/when he chooses to memorize his
multiplication tables, for example, he will do so very quickly. It isn't a
motivation problem, though...If I were to look at it as a problem, I would
see it as a timing one.
Getting back to my story about Matthew learning physics when he "should"
have been learning English the other day..... Would it have been more
desirable to tell him, "put down that physics book right now and memorize
your multiplication tables"? He's read dozens of HTML and JAVA
handbooks...should I tell him to put those aside until he learns Biology?
Why or why not? How about if he is playing guitar? Working on his Eagle
Scout project? Just what are the "basics" in HIS life?
+ There are several things I can think of that I would like to have
+ learned or would like to learn that I do not want to put the
+ effort into learning *on my own*.
My answer to that would be that you can't have everything! We all have 24
hours in a day. We choose how to spend those hours. We are not victims of
the clock....we have choices about the way we spend our time. You say
you're not motivated to exercise on your own, so you seek out a situation
(companionship, coaching) to motivate you. That's what my kids do, too. In
fact, when they had decided to memorize their multiplication tables, they
did seek out my help to assist them and to help them stay focused. (There
was a point at which they became disinterested, though--for now.) At other
times, they have sought out different mentors or teachers or companions or
situations for things they wanted or needed to learn or do that were easier
with another motivator. My son has taught himself to play the guitar, but
now wants to take lessons for some of those reasons. He's taken computer
classes, sailing classes, he's gone to leadership training schools in other
states (with Scouts), my daughters both take art classes; one takes dance
classes.
+ Is this because I was taught
+ in ps or is it because self-discipline and self-motivation
+ require a lot of energy and my desire has not reached that level,
+ or is it because I have other responsibilities at this time in my
+ life that take priority?
I would guess "all of the above", but primarily the latter (other
responsibilities that take priority). 24 hours in a day....
+ Multiplication tables are like exercise
+ and for your son, physics is like winning a national medal.
No, I don't see it like that, nor does he. He studies physics only because
he enjoys it. (Go figure! I HATE IT!!! His knowledge surpassed mine when
he was about 6 and I'm not exaggerating.) It is neither an "exercise" nor a
"medal"....it is the process he enjoys--he isn't working toward some end
goal. Yes, he will need additional math skills to proceed with physics much
further....but they aren't *separate* skills to him....they're all part of
the whole. He's not learning math so he can learn physics....he's just
learning about things he is interested in. They interweave.
+ Buying a curriculum to motivate him to do basic math is not the
+ answer because the child still has to *motivate himself* to do
+ work he doesn't really want to do.
I didn't buy him a curriculum to motivate him to do math....I bought him
numerous resources to assist him when he wants to learn more math. I don't
have an assumption that he "doesn't really want to do" it. I don't even
think that, necessarily, he has to "motivate himself"....perhaps there will
be some outside influence that will serve to motivate him. (It was this way
with his spelling when others began reading his writing in Boy Scouts....his
spelling improved dramatically almost overnight.) Motivation comes from
many places....including his parents at times--directly or indirectly.
+ How can we make it easier for
+ our kids to learn the things that require practice but are not
+ all that much fun?
Can you give a specific example? I still maintain that learning does *not*
have to be "fun" to entice kids to do it. In fact, I think that is one of
the most severe of the mistakes that mass education makes. I shy away from
the workbooks with "busy work" to make things "fun". (Things like word
searches and crossword puzzles, for example.) I hate those kinds of things,
and they're almost all you can find at the "educational stores". Not that
learning *can't* be fun....of course it can.....but some of the times that
I've witnessed my kids taking the greatest strides in their learning was
when they were MAD or FRUSTRATED or PERPLEXED or BORED or EMBARRASSED. When
the adult takes responsibility for "making it fun", the child is
disenfranchised--their right to their own learning is usurped. Then the
child's role in their education is once again relegated to the passive
role---"entertain me"/"educate me".
And re: "learning the basics": One sentence in that post I wrote suggested
asking other homeschooling parents about what they consider to be
"necessary"....or a sign of "education". I bet you can all think of
examples like this in the homeschooling families you know.... One
homeschooling friend I have is always ranting about how little ps kids know
about world history and then going on and on about all these kings and
queens and wars and ancient history. I know almost *nothing* about any of
these kinds of things and, other than a most bare outline, I don't think it
is important for my kids to ever know unless they want to. I'm 38 and have
never needed to know any of that stuff; I don't consider it "the basics" at
all, but my friend does.
+ IMO there is a benefit to knowing the basics.
Sure there is! And because there *is* a benefit, unschoolers will have no
problems learning them in their own time frame.
+ I wish I could
+ build furniture but I was never taught the basics and I have
+ decided not to pursue this as a hobby because it requires too
+ much energy to go back and learn from scratch. I know some women
+ that wish they could cook. They never learned the basics and
+ have decided it is too much trouble to learn now.
I think that's lame.....it's never to late to learn *if* you really want to
know. There are lots of things I'd *like* to learn, but only a few I have
time for at any given time; therefore, I'm making a choice, right? Ranking
things in relative importance in my life. If a woman really wants to learn
to cook, how hard would that be to do?? No one ever taught me a thing about
cooking...I was self-taught--unschooled. I have a friend who amazes me with
all the things she will tackle on her own. There are no excuses--if you
really wanted to learn--if it were really a priority for you--you could do
it. We live in the age of the Internet, after all! Above all, I want my
kids to know that it is possible for them to learn *whatever* they want.
(Even when there is no one around to make it "fun" or "easier".)
+ Can we get bye
+ without these skills? Yes. Would there be more possibilities in
+ life if we all had the basics covered? Yes. It is easier to
+ cover the basics when you are young and have a lot of time.
Bull hockey! (Pardon my French....and nothing personal, Pat!) We all have
24 hours in a day no matter how old we are. My kids are often busier than I
am. One of the lies that school taught us is that "the basics" take a long
time to learn. John Taylor Gatto says that we could learn *all* the basics
in just 100 hours. I've heard others say the same sort of thing. In the
early part of this century, people spent FAR FAR less time in school than
kids do now and learned much more than we do.
+ Institutions cover the basics of many areas. How do we provide
+ this for our unschooled children and still unschool?
Pat, this isn't a rhetorical question: What do you consider "the basics"
and why?
The only thing I do for my children in terms of "basics" is to expose them
to as much of the "real world" as possible....so that they have a clear
understanding of what *is* important to learn and why. I also have regular
discussions with them about their learning and what they would like to do
better or learn more about and how I can help. There have been situations
where I have pointed out when certain "basics" would come in handy in their
own lives. (Like Matthew's spelling when he was feeling self-conscious
about it in Scouts.) I try to nurture their confidence that nothing is
"beyond" them--they can learn whatever they choose to learn. And that they
are responsible for seeing that their own lives are successful (or not),
though I love them and am there to help if they desire it. And that they
have choices in and control over their lives.
--Leslie Moyer / Oklahoma
+ you've just gotten me going again with lots of questions.
Pat.....wow--you are an intense person! :-) Keeping me on my toes--I like
that! :-) I was up with a throwing-up child last night and am coming down
with some sort of respiratory thing myself...hope you can make heads or
tails out of what I'm about to say!
+ Your
+ son's difficulty motivating himself to learn certain math basics
+ makes me wonder.
I wouldn't say he's having difficulty motivating himself to learn certain
math basics......honestly, I don't see it that way at all. You don't know
my son, so I can see how you might think this. My son just hasn't learned
them YET. They haven't had compelling relevance to him yet. They will when
he needs them for Algebra or for something else and I'm positive he'll learn
them in just seconds or minutes. (Incidentally, even though he hasn't
started the American School algebra course yet, he has done lots of algebra
just because he found it interesting.) He learns so effortlessly, it seems
to me, and I have no doubt that if/when he chooses to memorize his
multiplication tables, for example, he will do so very quickly. It isn't a
motivation problem, though...If I were to look at it as a problem, I would
see it as a timing one.
Getting back to my story about Matthew learning physics when he "should"
have been learning English the other day..... Would it have been more
desirable to tell him, "put down that physics book right now and memorize
your multiplication tables"? He's read dozens of HTML and JAVA
handbooks...should I tell him to put those aside until he learns Biology?
Why or why not? How about if he is playing guitar? Working on his Eagle
Scout project? Just what are the "basics" in HIS life?
+ There are several things I can think of that I would like to have
+ learned or would like to learn that I do not want to put the
+ effort into learning *on my own*.
My answer to that would be that you can't have everything! We all have 24
hours in a day. We choose how to spend those hours. We are not victims of
the clock....we have choices about the way we spend our time. You say
you're not motivated to exercise on your own, so you seek out a situation
(companionship, coaching) to motivate you. That's what my kids do, too. In
fact, when they had decided to memorize their multiplication tables, they
did seek out my help to assist them and to help them stay focused. (There
was a point at which they became disinterested, though--for now.) At other
times, they have sought out different mentors or teachers or companions or
situations for things they wanted or needed to learn or do that were easier
with another motivator. My son has taught himself to play the guitar, but
now wants to take lessons for some of those reasons. He's taken computer
classes, sailing classes, he's gone to leadership training schools in other
states (with Scouts), my daughters both take art classes; one takes dance
classes.
+ Is this because I was taught
+ in ps or is it because self-discipline and self-motivation
+ require a lot of energy and my desire has not reached that level,
+ or is it because I have other responsibilities at this time in my
+ life that take priority?
I would guess "all of the above", but primarily the latter (other
responsibilities that take priority). 24 hours in a day....
+ Multiplication tables are like exercise
+ and for your son, physics is like winning a national medal.
No, I don't see it like that, nor does he. He studies physics only because
he enjoys it. (Go figure! I HATE IT!!! His knowledge surpassed mine when
he was about 6 and I'm not exaggerating.) It is neither an "exercise" nor a
"medal"....it is the process he enjoys--he isn't working toward some end
goal. Yes, he will need additional math skills to proceed with physics much
further....but they aren't *separate* skills to him....they're all part of
the whole. He's not learning math so he can learn physics....he's just
learning about things he is interested in. They interweave.
+ Buying a curriculum to motivate him to do basic math is not the
+ answer because the child still has to *motivate himself* to do
+ work he doesn't really want to do.
I didn't buy him a curriculum to motivate him to do math....I bought him
numerous resources to assist him when he wants to learn more math. I don't
have an assumption that he "doesn't really want to do" it. I don't even
think that, necessarily, he has to "motivate himself"....perhaps there will
be some outside influence that will serve to motivate him. (It was this way
with his spelling when others began reading his writing in Boy Scouts....his
spelling improved dramatically almost overnight.) Motivation comes from
many places....including his parents at times--directly or indirectly.
+ How can we make it easier for
+ our kids to learn the things that require practice but are not
+ all that much fun?
Can you give a specific example? I still maintain that learning does *not*
have to be "fun" to entice kids to do it. In fact, I think that is one of
the most severe of the mistakes that mass education makes. I shy away from
the workbooks with "busy work" to make things "fun". (Things like word
searches and crossword puzzles, for example.) I hate those kinds of things,
and they're almost all you can find at the "educational stores". Not that
learning *can't* be fun....of course it can.....but some of the times that
I've witnessed my kids taking the greatest strides in their learning was
when they were MAD or FRUSTRATED or PERPLEXED or BORED or EMBARRASSED. When
the adult takes responsibility for "making it fun", the child is
disenfranchised--their right to their own learning is usurped. Then the
child's role in their education is once again relegated to the passive
role---"entertain me"/"educate me".
And re: "learning the basics": One sentence in that post I wrote suggested
asking other homeschooling parents about what they consider to be
"necessary"....or a sign of "education". I bet you can all think of
examples like this in the homeschooling families you know.... One
homeschooling friend I have is always ranting about how little ps kids know
about world history and then going on and on about all these kings and
queens and wars and ancient history. I know almost *nothing* about any of
these kinds of things and, other than a most bare outline, I don't think it
is important for my kids to ever know unless they want to. I'm 38 and have
never needed to know any of that stuff; I don't consider it "the basics" at
all, but my friend does.
+ IMO there is a benefit to knowing the basics.
Sure there is! And because there *is* a benefit, unschoolers will have no
problems learning them in their own time frame.
+ I wish I could
+ build furniture but I was never taught the basics and I have
+ decided not to pursue this as a hobby because it requires too
+ much energy to go back and learn from scratch. I know some women
+ that wish they could cook. They never learned the basics and
+ have decided it is too much trouble to learn now.
I think that's lame.....it's never to late to learn *if* you really want to
know. There are lots of things I'd *like* to learn, but only a few I have
time for at any given time; therefore, I'm making a choice, right? Ranking
things in relative importance in my life. If a woman really wants to learn
to cook, how hard would that be to do?? No one ever taught me a thing about
cooking...I was self-taught--unschooled. I have a friend who amazes me with
all the things she will tackle on her own. There are no excuses--if you
really wanted to learn--if it were really a priority for you--you could do
it. We live in the age of the Internet, after all! Above all, I want my
kids to know that it is possible for them to learn *whatever* they want.
(Even when there is no one around to make it "fun" or "easier".)
+ Can we get bye
+ without these skills? Yes. Would there be more possibilities in
+ life if we all had the basics covered? Yes. It is easier to
+ cover the basics when you are young and have a lot of time.
Bull hockey! (Pardon my French....and nothing personal, Pat!) We all have
24 hours in a day no matter how old we are. My kids are often busier than I
am. One of the lies that school taught us is that "the basics" take a long
time to learn. John Taylor Gatto says that we could learn *all* the basics
in just 100 hours. I've heard others say the same sort of thing. In the
early part of this century, people spent FAR FAR less time in school than
kids do now and learned much more than we do.
+ Institutions cover the basics of many areas. How do we provide
+ this for our unschooled children and still unschool?
Pat, this isn't a rhetorical question: What do you consider "the basics"
and why?
The only thing I do for my children in terms of "basics" is to expose them
to as much of the "real world" as possible....so that they have a clear
understanding of what *is* important to learn and why. I also have regular
discussions with them about their learning and what they would like to do
better or learn more about and how I can help. There have been situations
where I have pointed out when certain "basics" would come in handy in their
own lives. (Like Matthew's spelling when he was feeling self-conscious
about it in Scouts.) I try to nurture their confidence that nothing is
"beyond" them--they can learn whatever they choose to learn. And that they
are responsible for seeing that their own lives are successful (or not),
though I love them and am there to help if they desire it. And that they
have choices in and control over their lives.
--Leslie Moyer / Oklahoma
Tia Leschke
>I agree. I started learning to play the cello just after I turned
>
>+ I wish I could
>+ build furniture but I was never taught the basics and I have
>+ decided not to pursue this as a hobby because it requires too
>+ much energy to go back and learn from scratch. I know some women
>+ that wish they could cook. They never learned the basics and
>+ have decided it is too much trouble to learn now.
>
>I think that's lame.....it's never to late to learn *if* you really want to
>know. There are lots of things I'd *like* to learn, but only a few I have
>time for at any given time; therefore, I'm making a choice, right? Ranking
>things in relative importance in my life. If a woman really wants to learn
>to cook, how hard would that be to do?? No one ever taught me a thing about
>cooking...I was self-taught--unschooled. I have a friend who amazes me with
>all the things she will tackle on her own. There are no excuses--if you
>really wanted to learn--if it were really a priority for you--you could do
>it. We live in the age of the Internet, after all! Above all, I want my
>kids to know that it is possible for them to learn *whatever* they want.
>(Even when there is no one around to make it "fun" or "easier".)
50. I'll never be an excellent cellist. There just isn't enough
time. But I play well enough now to play chamber music with other people,
and I love it. It's been a lot of work, and I could progress even faster
if I chose to spend more time at it. I don't because there are lots of
other things I choose to spend my time doing.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Groundhoggirl
On Sunday, January 20, 2002, at 10:32 AM, Tia Leschke wrote:
endless. There are not enough hours in the day for me to do and learn
everything I want to do. My reason for unschooling my kids is so they
will continue to feel the same way and be excited about being alive. So
many things are possible if you just try. And, even though we may not
succeed at everything, something is always learned along the way.
Mimi
>Oh, man!!! There are so many things I want to learn to do. My list is
>>
>>
>> + I wish I could
>> + build furniture but I was never taught the basics and I have
>> + decided not to pursue this as a hobby because it requires too
>> + much energy to go back and learn from scratch. I know some women
>> + that wish they could cook. They never learned the basics and
>> + have decided it is too much trouble to learn now.
>>
>> I think that's lame.....it's never to late to learn *if* you really
>> want to
>> know. There are lots of things I'd *like* to learn, but only a few I
>> have
>> time for at any given time; therefore, I'm making a choice, right?
>> Ranking
>> things in relative importance in my life. If a woman really wants to
>> learn
>> to cook, how hard would that be to do?? No one ever taught me a thing
>> about
>> cooking...I was self-taught--unschooled. I have a friend who amazes
>> me with
>> all the things she will tackle on her own. There are no excuses--if
>> you
>> really wanted to learn--if it were really a priority for you--you
>> could do
>> it. We live in the age of the Internet, after all! Above all, I want
>> my
>> kids to know that it is possible for them to learn *whatever* they
>> want.
>> (Even when there is no one around to make it "fun" or "easier".)
> ===============
> I agree. I started learning to play the cello just after I turned
> 50. I'll never be an excellent cellist. There just isn't enough
> time. But I play well enough now to play chamber music with other
> people,
> and I love it. It's been a lot of work, and I could progress even
> faster
> if I chose to spend more time at it. I don't because there are lots of
> other things I choose to spend my time doing.
> Tia
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
endless. There are not enough hours in the day for me to do and learn
everything I want to do. My reason for unschooling my kids is so they
will continue to feel the same way and be excited about being alive. So
many things are possible if you just try. And, even though we may not
succeed at everything, something is always learned along the way.
Mimi
> Tia Leschke[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
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Sarah Carothers
>Leslie wrote:%-x
>I'm 38
:: muddering to myself... old woman :-)::
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 00:15:31 -0600, Leslie Moyer wrote:
need to read more examples of how this works???
(others bored with this can delete here and you won't miss a thing
I've told this story before... and before and before <g>).
My oldest dd decided about 2 yrs ago that she wants to become a
doctor. This occurred after watching Trauma in the ER . She asked me
what it takes to become a doctor and I, having no clue, went to
Borders and bought a few books on becoming a doctor (written by
doctors.. one female). I read them ( more on why *I* read them rather
than dd reading them to follow) and reported back that it's a tough
road, full of obstacles and costly and all the negatives plus the
positives. Because it is such a monumental task in my eyes, I
suggested she go to the hospital and follow a doctor around to see if
that's what she really liked. I mean, tv is one thing... real life
guts spilled out on a table is another. Well, the arrangements were
made and she *voluntarily* got up and out of the house by 6:00 AM
(this from a child who regularly sleeps till noon or later) and when
she got there, my friend who arranged this got some scrubs for Katie
and they were off. I was to come back in 5-6 hours. I figured that
when I returned, she'd be sick on her stomach, white as a sheet and
certain that being a doctor was *not* what it's cracked up to be.
Well sir, Mothers should never think <bwg> because we're always
wrong! <g> I have never *seen* her so psyched over something! She
loved this better than anything she's ever done... including
gymnastics and dance and all the fun stuff she does.
The next step was to tell her what all she needs to study to become a
doctor and how important SAT's and GPA's are in this field because of
the difficulty of getting into med school. After I spread the tough
stuff on thick, her response was "get the books. I'm ready." Then
and since then, she's had me get the following... and I'll denote the
ones she uses with a " * "
Anatomy and Physiology***(her absolute favorite)
Conceptual Physics*
Harold Jacob's Elementary Algebra*
Harold Jacobs Geometry... on back order as we speak
College Biology book from Goodwill*
Latin (bummed out)
Spanish (bummed out)
Chemistry book (used from local prep school)*
I never, ever have to force or encourage her to "do schoolwork". She
has set her goal, knows what it takes and *she* is in charge. All I'm
doing is guiding her and trying to make it a smooth ride whenever I
can. For example, in 8th grade she took the SAT to see how she'd do
and although for an 8th grader it was good, the results were not what
she expected. That is why I've been asking the list for SAT prep
information... to determine what would be the best 'next step' for
her. Clearly, she'll improve because she has studied a lot more stuff
since initially taking the SAT but because this goal is so important
to her and because I see her taking all the other steps to reach this
goal, I've taken it upon myself to find out about this SAT deal and
what can be done. I'll present her with my findings in the end and
she'll decide what, if anything, she wants to do about it.
.. oh, and by the way, she never sat down and memorized the
multiplication tables :-). That was never isolated out of the bigger
picture.... learning the multiplication tables became necessary to do
the Algebra. Over time, as she has had to use them, she has learned
them with use of a calculator but there never was a moment when we
used flash cards and drill and kill and so on.
Now, back to the 'me researching rather than her' thing. Katie does
not like to read for pleasure. She will read factual books but even
then, she'd rather glean the information some other way. The other
day she was bugging dh over something from the physics book. They sat
at the table and he was describing what he had read and I interrupted
and said, "Katie, can't you read that yourself? Do you not understand
it??" She replied... with a grin... "oh, I understand it, Mom. I just
hate to read. I'd rather Daddy just tell me what it says."
If the desire/passion is there, the motivation easily follows. Very
simple but something I think we all struggle with because we came
from a different mindset.
All I can say is, I hope all those medical journals come as "books on
tape" !
--
Sarah Carothers,
puddles@... on 01/20/2002
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I have an example to add to this line of thought, Pat. Maybe you just
>I wouldn't say he's having difficulty motivating himself to
>learn certain
>math basics......honestly, I don't see it that way at all.
>You don't know
>my son, so I can see how you might think this. My son just
>hasn't learned
>them YET. They haven't had compelling relevance to him
>yet. They will when
>he needs them for Algebra or for something else and I'm
>positive he'll learn
>them in just seconds or minutes. (Incidentally, even
>though he hasn't
>started the American School algebra course yet, he has done
>lots of algebra
>just because he found it interesting.) He learns so
>effortlessly, it seems
>to me, and I have no doubt that if/when he chooses to
>memorize his
>multiplication tables, for example, he will do so very
>quickly. It isn't a
>motivation problem, though...If I were to look at it as a
>problem, I would
>see it as a timing one.
>
need to read more examples of how this works???
(others bored with this can delete here and you won't miss a thing
I've told this story before... and before and before <g>).
My oldest dd decided about 2 yrs ago that she wants to become a
doctor. This occurred after watching Trauma in the ER . She asked me
what it takes to become a doctor and I, having no clue, went to
Borders and bought a few books on becoming a doctor (written by
doctors.. one female). I read them ( more on why *I* read them rather
than dd reading them to follow) and reported back that it's a tough
road, full of obstacles and costly and all the negatives plus the
positives. Because it is such a monumental task in my eyes, I
suggested she go to the hospital and follow a doctor around to see if
that's what she really liked. I mean, tv is one thing... real life
guts spilled out on a table is another. Well, the arrangements were
made and she *voluntarily* got up and out of the house by 6:00 AM
(this from a child who regularly sleeps till noon or later) and when
she got there, my friend who arranged this got some scrubs for Katie
and they were off. I was to come back in 5-6 hours. I figured that
when I returned, she'd be sick on her stomach, white as a sheet and
certain that being a doctor was *not* what it's cracked up to be.
Well sir, Mothers should never think <bwg> because we're always
wrong! <g> I have never *seen* her so psyched over something! She
loved this better than anything she's ever done... including
gymnastics and dance and all the fun stuff she does.
The next step was to tell her what all she needs to study to become a
doctor and how important SAT's and GPA's are in this field because of
the difficulty of getting into med school. After I spread the tough
stuff on thick, her response was "get the books. I'm ready." Then
and since then, she's had me get the following... and I'll denote the
ones she uses with a " * "
Anatomy and Physiology***(her absolute favorite)
Conceptual Physics*
Harold Jacob's Elementary Algebra*
Harold Jacobs Geometry... on back order as we speak
College Biology book from Goodwill*
Latin (bummed out)
Spanish (bummed out)
Chemistry book (used from local prep school)*
I never, ever have to force or encourage her to "do schoolwork". She
has set her goal, knows what it takes and *she* is in charge. All I'm
doing is guiding her and trying to make it a smooth ride whenever I
can. For example, in 8th grade she took the SAT to see how she'd do
and although for an 8th grader it was good, the results were not what
she expected. That is why I've been asking the list for SAT prep
information... to determine what would be the best 'next step' for
her. Clearly, she'll improve because she has studied a lot more stuff
since initially taking the SAT but because this goal is so important
to her and because I see her taking all the other steps to reach this
goal, I've taken it upon myself to find out about this SAT deal and
what can be done. I'll present her with my findings in the end and
she'll decide what, if anything, she wants to do about it.
.. oh, and by the way, she never sat down and memorized the
multiplication tables :-). That was never isolated out of the bigger
picture.... learning the multiplication tables became necessary to do
the Algebra. Over time, as she has had to use them, she has learned
them with use of a calculator but there never was a moment when we
used flash cards and drill and kill and so on.
Now, back to the 'me researching rather than her' thing. Katie does
not like to read for pleasure. She will read factual books but even
then, she'd rather glean the information some other way. The other
day she was bugging dh over something from the physics book. They sat
at the table and he was describing what he had read and I interrupted
and said, "Katie, can't you read that yourself? Do you not understand
it??" She replied... with a grin... "oh, I understand it, Mom. I just
hate to read. I'd rather Daddy just tell me what it says."
If the desire/passion is there, the motivation easily follows. Very
simple but something I think we all struggle with because we came
from a different mindset.
All I can say is, I hope all those medical journals come as "books on
tape" !
--
Sarah Carothers,
puddles@... on 01/20/2002
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Groundhoggirl
On Sunday, January 20, 2002, at 12:42 PM, Sarah Carothers wrote:
Yes, I've read this story of yours before, but it is such a beautiful
example of unschooling that it deserves to be read many times. Thanks
for sharing it again with us. I hope you don't mind - I have forwarded
it to a friend who is considering homeschooling her two boys. I, of
course, am pushing unschooling.
Mimi
=============
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 00:15:31 -0600, Leslie Moyer wrote:Hi Sarah,
>>
>> I wouldn't say he's having difficulty motivating himself to
>> learn certain
>> math basics......honestly, I don't see it that way at all.
>> You don't know
>> my son, so I can see how you might think this. My son just
>> hasn't learned
>> them YET. They haven't had compelling relevance to him
>> yet. They will when
>> he needs them for Algebra or for something else and I'm
>> positive he'll learn
>> them in just seconds or minutes. (Incidentally, even
>> though he hasn't
>> started the American School algebra course yet, he has done
>> lots of algebra
>> just because he found it interesting.) He learns so
>> effortlessly, it seems
>> to me, and I have no doubt that if/when he chooses to
>> memorize his
>> multiplication tables, for example, he will do so very
>> quickly. It isn't a
>> motivation problem, though...If I were to look at it as a
>> problem, I would
>> see it as a timing one.
>> =================
>
> I have an example to add to this line of thought, Pat. Maybe you just
> need to read more examples of how this works???
> (others bored with this can delete here and you won't miss a thing
> I've told this story before... and before and before <g>).
>
> My oldest dd decided about 2 yrs ago that she wants to become a
> doctor. This occurred after watching Trauma in the ER . She asked me
> what it takes to become a doctor and I, having no clue, went to
> Borders and bought a few books on becoming a doctor (written by
> doctors.. one female). I read them ( more on why *I* read them rather
> than dd reading them to follow) and reported back that it's a tough
> road, full of obstacles and costly and all the negatives plus the
> positives. Because it is such a monumental task in my eyes, I
> suggested she go to the hospital and follow a doctor around to see if
> that's what she really liked. I mean, tv is one thing... real life
> guts spilled out on a table is another. Well, the arrangements were
> made and she *voluntarily* got up and out of the house by 6:00 AM
> (this from a child who regularly sleeps till noon or later) and when
> she got there, my friend who arranged this got some scrubs for Katie
> and they were off. I was to come back in 5-6 hours. I figured that
> when I returned, she'd be sick on her stomach, white as a sheet and
> certain that being a doctor was *not* what it's cracked up to be.
> Well sir, Mothers should never think <bwg> because we're always
> wrong! <g> I have never *seen* her so psyched over something! She
> loved this better than anything she's ever done... including
> gymnastics and dance and all the fun stuff she does.
> The next step was to tell her what all she needs to study to become a
> doctor and how important SAT's and GPA's are in this field because of
> the difficulty of getting into med school. After I spread the tough
> stuff on thick, her response was "get the books. I'm ready." Then
> and since then, she's had me get the following... and I'll denote the
> ones she uses with a " * "
> Anatomy and Physiology***(her absolute favorite)
> Conceptual Physics*
> Harold Jacob's Elementary Algebra*
> Harold Jacobs Geometry... on back order as we speak
> College Biology book from Goodwill*
> Latin (bummed out)
> Spanish (bummed out)
> Chemistry book (used from local prep school)*
>
> I never, ever have to force or encourage her to "do schoolwork". She
> has set her goal, knows what it takes and *she* is in charge. All I'm
> doing is guiding her and trying to make it a smooth ride whenever I
> can. For example, in 8th grade she took the SAT to see how she'd do
> and although for an 8th grader it was good, the results were not what
> she expected. That is why I've been asking the list for SAT prep
> information... to determine what would be the best 'next step' for
> her. Clearly, she'll improve because she has studied a lot more stuff
> since initially taking the SAT but because this goal is so important
> to her and because I see her taking all the other steps to reach this
> goal, I've taken it upon myself to find out about this SAT deal and
> what can be done. I'll present her with my findings in the end and
> she'll decide what, if anything, she wants to do about it.
> .. oh, and by the way, she never sat down and memorized the
> multiplication tables :-). That was never isolated out of the bigger
> picture.... learning the multiplication tables became necessary to do
> the Algebra. Over time, as she has had to use them, she has learned
> them with use of a calculator but there never was a moment when we
> used flash cards and drill and kill and so on.
>
> Now, back to the 'me researching rather than her' thing. Katie does
> not like to read for pleasure. She will read factual books but even
> then, she'd rather glean the information some other way. The other
> day she was bugging dh over something from the physics book. They sat
> at the table and he was describing what he had read and I interrupted
> and said, "Katie, can't you read that yourself? Do you not understand
> it??" She replied... with a grin... "oh, I understand it, Mom. I just
> hate to read. I'd rather Daddy just tell me what it says."
>
> If the desire/passion is there, the motivation easily follows. Very
> simple but something I think we all struggle with because we came
> from a different mindset.
>
> All I can say is, I hope all those medical journals come as "books on
> tape" !
> --
> Sarah Carothers,
> puddles@... on 01/20/2002
>
> =============
Yes, I've read this story of yours before, but it is such a beautiful
example of unschooling that it deserves to be read many times. Thanks
for sharing it again with us. I hope you don't mind - I have forwarded
it to a friend who is considering homeschooling her two boys. I, of
course, am pushing unschooling.
Mimi
=============
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:58:33 -0600, Groundhoggirl wrote:
I don't mind at all. I'm glad nobody jumped me for telling it again
:-). I know it can get old reading the same stories but I feel this
is such a good example of how a kid can find a desirable goal and the
motivation to go for it.
Thanks for sharing it with another family. I'm an unschooling pusher
myself <g>
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Hi Mimi,
>Yes, I've read this story of yours before, but it is such a
>beautiful
>example of unschooling that it deserves to be read many times.
>Thanks
>for sharing it again with us. I hope you don't mind - I have
>forwarded
>it to a friend who is considering homeschooling her two boys. I,
>of
>course, am pushing unschooling.
>
>Mimi
>=============
>>
>
>[Non-text portions of t
I don't mind at all. I'm glad nobody jumped me for telling it again
:-). I know it can get old reading the same stories but I feel this
is such a good example of how a kid can find a desirable goal and the
motivation to go for it.
Thanks for sharing it with another family. I'm an unschooling pusher
myself <g>
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pat Cald...
Well Leslie that was a real mouth full and thank you for taking the time even when you weren't feeling well. I so appreciate your directness. I hate not really knowing what people are thinking because they are concerned about hurting my feelings. These discussion are meant to help people sort things out. This is good!
In an earlier post I wrote:
+ How can we make it easier for
+ our kids to learn the things that require practice but are not
+ all that much fun?
Leslies response to my question:
+ Can you give a specific example?
Examples would be handwriting, multiplication and addition facts, grammar, learning a foreign language and possibly some academics necessary for college. I see that you don't feel it is our responsibility to "entertain or educate". That sure makes my job easy!
So why is learning to brush ones teeth or using good manners more important than learning to write legibly? I could take the same approach with basic life skills and figure when my kids got embarrassed enough about their poor hygene they would do something about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm 99% sold on everything you are saying, but there is still that darned 1%. This is what is bothering me - I think twice a day teeth brushing is an important daily habit. My kids don't seem to think the same. I still have to ask my 10 and 12 yos if they brushed their teeth, they don't always remember. I don't make it fun for them, I talk to them about the importance of it, I've helped them with a routine so they will always remember,and I model good hygene myself, so what's up with that!! Do you realize how much easier life is when we learn to clean as we go instead of letting things get way out of hand and then getting mad, frustrated, embarrassed etc. enough to try to learn to be neat. It takes years of small incremental training to develop good life skills, why not take the same approach to some of the basic academic skills?
Here is what I think you will say. If the kids don't brush their teeth, they will develop tooth decay and that is a consequence far different from being embarrassed about your spelling. If however there was no health related issue with not brushing their teeth, then they would remember to brush their teeth on their own once they wanted to. So how about this for a come back, why do they have to get to the point of being embarrassed in order to start brushing their teeth? So now what do you say?
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In an earlier post I wrote:
+ How can we make it easier for
+ our kids to learn the things that require practice but are not
+ all that much fun?
Leslies response to my question:
+ Can you give a specific example?
Examples would be handwriting, multiplication and addition facts, grammar, learning a foreign language and possibly some academics necessary for college. I see that you don't feel it is our responsibility to "entertain or educate". That sure makes my job easy!
So why is learning to brush ones teeth or using good manners more important than learning to write legibly? I could take the same approach with basic life skills and figure when my kids got embarrassed enough about their poor hygene they would do something about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm 99% sold on everything you are saying, but there is still that darned 1%. This is what is bothering me - I think twice a day teeth brushing is an important daily habit. My kids don't seem to think the same. I still have to ask my 10 and 12 yos if they brushed their teeth, they don't always remember. I don't make it fun for them, I talk to them about the importance of it, I've helped them with a routine so they will always remember,and I model good hygene myself, so what's up with that!! Do you realize how much easier life is when we learn to clean as we go instead of letting things get way out of hand and then getting mad, frustrated, embarrassed etc. enough to try to learn to be neat. It takes years of small incremental training to develop good life skills, why not take the same approach to some of the basic academic skills?
Here is what I think you will say. If the kids don't brush their teeth, they will develop tooth decay and that is a consequence far different from being embarrassed about your spelling. If however there was no health related issue with not brushing their teeth, then they would remember to brush their teeth on their own once they wanted to. So how about this for a come back, why do they have to get to the point of being embarrassed in order to start brushing their teeth? So now what do you say?
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pat Cald...
Tia wrote:
I agree. I started learning to play the cello just after I turned
50. I'll never be an excellent cellist. There just isn't enough
time. But I play well enough now to play chamber music with other people,
and I love it. It's been a lot of work, and I could progress even faster
if I chose to spend more time at it. I don't because there are lots of
other things I choose to spend my time doing.
Do you ever wonder what you might have done with your cello playing if you had learned at an earlier age?
Do your children play an instrument? Just curious.
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I agree. I started learning to play the cello just after I turned
50. I'll never be an excellent cellist. There just isn't enough
time. But I play well enough now to play chamber music with other people,
and I love it. It's been a lot of work, and I could progress even faster
if I chose to spend more time at it. I don't because there are lots of
other things I choose to spend my time doing.
Do you ever wonder what you might have done with your cello playing if you had learned at an earlier age?
Do your children play an instrument? Just curious.
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:05:04 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
It doesn't have to get to the point of embarrassment. It can be a
situation where they experience sensitive teeth and pain associated
with the gums being irriated. I don't think embarrassment is the
*key* to getting them to brush, although it sure works a *lot* of the
time, especially when they are teens!
my .02
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>So how about this for a come back, whyMay I respond?
>do they have to get to the point of being embarrassed in
>order to start brushing their teeth? So now what do you
>say?
It doesn't have to get to the point of embarrassment. It can be a
situation where they experience sensitive teeth and pain associated
with the gums being irriated. I don't think embarrassment is the
*key* to getting them to brush, although it sure works a *lot* of the
time, especially when they are teens!
my .02
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pat Cald...
Sarah,
I loved the story about your daughter. I read it after replying to Leslie with more questions that show how I just don't get the big picture yet. My 12 yo dd has already decided she wants to be an astronaut or work in a space related field. We went to a science museum when there were astronauts speaking and asked some questions. She now knows she will need to get a PhD and work in a math or science field to be considered. She says that she will probably be an engineer. I guess I should look into engineering careers so we can give her more of an in depth look. She is not asking what she needs to know in order to be an engineer, maybe I should look into that too.
Pat
I loved the story about your daughter. I read it after replying to Leslie with more questions that show how I just don't get the big picture yet. My 12 yo dd has already decided she wants to be an astronaut or work in a space related field. We went to a science museum when there were astronauts speaking and asked some questions. She now knows she will need to get a PhD and work in a math or science field to be considered. She says that she will probably be an engineer. I guess I should look into engineering careers so we can give her more of an in depth look. She is not asking what she needs to know in order to be an engineer, maybe I should look into that too.
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Carothers
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Covering the basics
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 00:15:31 -0600, Leslie Moyer wrote:
>
>I wouldn't say he's having difficulty motivating himself to
>learn certain
>math basics......honestly, I don't see it that way at all.
>You don't know
>my son, so I can see how you might think this. My son just
>hasn't learned
>them YET. They haven't had compelling relevance to him
>yet. They will when
>he needs them for Algebra or for something else and I'm
>positive he'll learn
>them in just seconds or minutes. (Incidentally, even
>though he hasn't
>started the American School algebra course yet, he has done
>lots of algebra
>just because he found it interesting.) He learns so
>effortlessly, it seems
>to me, and I have no doubt that if/when he chooses to
>memorize his
>multiplication tables, for example, he will do so very
>quickly. It isn't a
>motivation problem, though...If I were to look at it as a
>problem, I would
>see it as a timing one.
>
I have an example to add to this line of thought, Pat. Maybe you just
need to read more examples of how this works???
(others bored with this can delete here and you won't miss a thing
I've told this story before... and before and before <g>).
My oldest dd decided about 2 yrs ago that she wants to become a
doctor. This occurred after watching Trauma in the ER . She asked me
what it takes to become a doctor and I, having no clue, went to
Borders and bought a few books on becoming a doctor (written by
doctors.. one female). I read them ( more on why *I* read them rather
than dd reading them to follow) and reported back that it's a tough
road, full of obstacles and costly and all the negatives plus the
positives. Because it is such a monumental task in my eyes, I
suggested she go to the hospital and follow a doctor around to see if
that's what she really liked. I mean, tv is one thing... real life
guts spilled out on a table is another. Well, the arrangements were
made and she *voluntarily* got up and out of the house by 6:00 AM
(this from a child who regularly sleeps till noon or later) and when
she got there, my friend who arranged this got some scrubs for Katie
and they were off. I was to come back in 5-6 hours. I figured that
when I returned, she'd be sick on her stomach, white as a sheet and
certain that being a doctor was *not* what it's cracked up to be.
Well sir, Mothers should never think <bwg> because we're always
wrong! <g> I have never *seen* her so psyched over something! She
loved this better than anything she's ever done... including
gymnastics and dance and all the fun stuff she does.
The next step was to tell her what all she needs to study to become a
doctor and how important SAT's and GPA's are in this field because of
the difficulty of getting into med school. After I spread the tough
stuff on thick, her response was "get the books. I'm ready." Then
and since then, she's had me get the following... and I'll denote the
ones she uses with a " * "
Anatomy and Physiology***(her absolute favorite)
Conceptual Physics*
Harold Jacob's Elementary Algebra*
Harold Jacobs Geometry... on back order as we speak
College Biology book from Goodwill*
Latin (bummed out)
Spanish (bummed out)
Chemistry book (used from local prep school)*
I never, ever have to force or encourage her to "do schoolwork". She
has set her goal, knows what it takes and *she* is in charge. All I'm
doing is guiding her and trying to make it a smooth ride whenever I
can. For example, in 8th grade she took the SAT to see how she'd do
and although for an 8th grader it was good, the results were not what
she expected. That is why I've been asking the list for SAT prep
information... to determine what would be the best 'next step' for
her. Clearly, she'll improve because she has studied a lot more stuff
since initially taking the SAT but because this goal is so important
to her and because I see her taking all the other steps to reach this
goal, I've taken it upon myself to find out about this SAT deal and
what can be done. I'll present her with my findings in the end and
she'll decide what, if anything, she wants to do about it.
.. oh, and by the way, she never sat down and memorized the
multiplication tables :-). That was never isolated out of the bigger
picture.... learning the multiplication tables became necessary to do
the Algebra. Over time, as she has had to use them, she has learned
them with use of a calculator but there never was a moment when we
used flash cards and drill and kill and so on.
Now, back to the 'me researching rather than her' thing. Katie does
not like to read for pleasure. She will read factual books but even
then, she'd rather glean the information some other way. The other
day she was bugging dh over something from the physics book. They sat
at the table and he was describing what he had read and I interrupted
and said, "Katie, can't you read that yourself? Do you not understand
it??" She replied... with a grin... "oh, I understand it, Mom. I just
hate to read. I'd rather Daddy just tell me what it says."
If the desire/passion is there, the motivation easily follows. Very
simple but something I think we all struggle with because we came
from a different mindset.
All I can say is, I hope all those medical journals come as "books on
tape" !
--
Sarah Carothers,
puddles@... on 01/20/2002
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:10:37 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
this one as well as await to read your response).
I have natural musical talents. I play by ear, sing very well and can
remember music like the back of my hand. When it was 'discovered'
that I could do this so easily, my parents made me sign up for music
lessons. I liked them at first but never was really crazy about them.
It felt like the need to get proper lessons was pushed way too soon
and sorta squashed my natural desire to do musical things. (the fun
was taken out of it and at an early age, it became a dreaded chore!).
I continued lessons because I was always told that was the *only*
thing I was good at and I was afraid that if I quit, I'd not have a
single thing in life to identify me. I got into college because of
my music... it *definitely* wasn't my unbelievably low SAT scores or
my GPA.
As soon as I discovered that I do, indeeed, have other 'talents' and
can have an identity outside of music, I stopped playing and have had
NO desire to touch a note since. I still sing in the car with the
windows rolled up, though<g>. Who knows where my musical talents
would have taken me had they not been shoved down my throat
*earlier*.
p.s. I don't mean for this to sound like I'm blaming my parents for
my outcome.... I pretty much dug my own hole way back when.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Do you ever wonder what you might have done with your(excuse the intrusion, Tia. I also have to throw in another .02 on
>cello playing if you had learned at an earlier age?
>
>Do your children play an instrument? Just curious.
>
>Pat
this one as well as await to read your response).
I have natural musical talents. I play by ear, sing very well and can
remember music like the back of my hand. When it was 'discovered'
that I could do this so easily, my parents made me sign up for music
lessons. I liked them at first but never was really crazy about them.
It felt like the need to get proper lessons was pushed way too soon
and sorta squashed my natural desire to do musical things. (the fun
was taken out of it and at an early age, it became a dreaded chore!).
I continued lessons because I was always told that was the *only*
thing I was good at and I was afraid that if I quit, I'd not have a
single thing in life to identify me. I got into college because of
my music... it *definitely* wasn't my unbelievably low SAT scores or
my GPA.
As soon as I discovered that I do, indeeed, have other 'talents' and
can have an identity outside of music, I stopped playing and have had
NO desire to touch a note since. I still sing in the car with the
windows rolled up, though<g>. Who knows where my musical talents
would have taken me had they not been shoved down my throat
*earlier*.
p.s. I don't mean for this to sound like I'm blaming my parents for
my outcome.... I pretty much dug my own hole way back when.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
They are developing or may already had it developed, a computer program that
"reads" anything you scan into it. It is part of the same research for
those that are blind that came up with the talking typing program.
Lynda
"reads" anything you scan into it. It is part of the same research for
those that are blind that came up with the talking typing program.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Carothers" <puddles@...>
To: <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Covering the basics
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 00:15:31 -0600, Leslie Moyer wrote:
> >
> >I wouldn't say he's having difficulty motivating himself to
> >learn certain
> >math basics......honestly, I don't see it that way at all.
> >You don't know
> >my son, so I can see how you might think this. My son just
> >hasn't learned
> >them YET. They haven't had compelling relevance to him
> >yet. They will when
> >he needs them for Algebra or for something else and I'm
> >positive he'll learn
> >them in just seconds or minutes. (Incidentally, even
> >though he hasn't
> >started the American School algebra course yet, he has done
> >lots of algebra
> >just because he found it interesting.) He learns so
> >effortlessly, it seems
> >to me, and I have no doubt that if/when he chooses to
> >memorize his
> >multiplication tables, for example, he will do so very
> >quickly. It isn't a
> >motivation problem, though...If I were to look at it as a
> >problem, I would
> >see it as a timing one.
> >
>
> I have an example to add to this line of thought, Pat. Maybe you just
> need to read more examples of how this works???
> (others bored with this can delete here and you won't miss a thing
> I've told this story before... and before and before <g>).
>
> My oldest dd decided about 2 yrs ago that she wants to become a
> doctor. This occurred after watching Trauma in the ER . She asked me
> what it takes to become a doctor and I, having no clue, went to
> Borders and bought a few books on becoming a doctor (written by
> doctors.. one female). I read them ( more on why *I* read them rather
> than dd reading them to follow) and reported back that it's a tough
> road, full of obstacles and costly and all the negatives plus the
> positives. Because it is such a monumental task in my eyes, I
> suggested she go to the hospital and follow a doctor around to see if
> that's what she really liked. I mean, tv is one thing... real life
> guts spilled out on a table is another. Well, the arrangements were
> made and she *voluntarily* got up and out of the house by 6:00 AM
> (this from a child who regularly sleeps till noon or later) and when
> she got there, my friend who arranged this got some scrubs for Katie
> and they were off. I was to come back in 5-6 hours. I figured that
> when I returned, she'd be sick on her stomach, white as a sheet and
> certain that being a doctor was *not* what it's cracked up to be.
> Well sir, Mothers should never think <bwg> because we're always
> wrong! <g> I have never *seen* her so psyched over something! She
> loved this better than anything she's ever done... including
> gymnastics and dance and all the fun stuff she does.
> The next step was to tell her what all she needs to study to become a
> doctor and how important SAT's and GPA's are in this field because of
> the difficulty of getting into med school. After I spread the tough
> stuff on thick, her response was "get the books. I'm ready." Then
> and since then, she's had me get the following... and I'll denote the
> ones she uses with a " * "
> Anatomy and Physiology***(her absolute favorite)
> Conceptual Physics*
> Harold Jacob's Elementary Algebra*
> Harold Jacobs Geometry... on back order as we speak
> College Biology book from Goodwill*
> Latin (bummed out)
> Spanish (bummed out)
> Chemistry book (used from local prep school)*
>
> I never, ever have to force or encourage her to "do schoolwork". She
> has set her goal, knows what it takes and *she* is in charge. All I'm
> doing is guiding her and trying to make it a smooth ride whenever I
> can. For example, in 8th grade she took the SAT to see how she'd do
> and although for an 8th grader it was good, the results were not what
> she expected. That is why I've been asking the list for SAT prep
> information... to determine what would be the best 'next step' for
> her. Clearly, she'll improve because she has studied a lot more stuff
> since initially taking the SAT but because this goal is so important
> to her and because I see her taking all the other steps to reach this
> goal, I've taken it upon myself to find out about this SAT deal and
> what can be done. I'll present her with my findings in the end and
> she'll decide what, if anything, she wants to do about it.
> .. oh, and by the way, she never sat down and memorized the
> multiplication tables :-). That was never isolated out of the bigger
> picture.... learning the multiplication tables became necessary to do
> the Algebra. Over time, as she has had to use them, she has learned
> them with use of a calculator but there never was a moment when we
> used flash cards and drill and kill and so on.
>
> Now, back to the 'me researching rather than her' thing. Katie does
> not like to read for pleasure. She will read factual books but even
> then, she'd rather glean the information some other way. The other
> day she was bugging dh over something from the physics book. They sat
> at the table and he was describing what he had read and I interrupted
> and said, "Katie, can't you read that yourself? Do you not understand
> it??" She replied... with a grin... "oh, I understand it, Mom. I just
> hate to read. I'd rather Daddy just tell me what it says."
>
> If the desire/passion is there, the motivation easily follows. Very
> simple but something I think we all struggle with because we came
> from a different mindset.
>
> All I can say is, I hope all those medical journals come as "books on
> tape" !
> --
> Sarah Carothers,
> puddles@... on 01/20/2002
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Groundhoggirl
My boys are 8 yo. Paul will usually brush his teeth once a day.
Sometimes he'll forget for 2 or 3 days and he'll notice they feel kind
of yucky and then he'll start brushing them again. He also has
fingernails that grow incredibly fast and sometimes get to be very
long. My husband and I used to clip them for him, but now he does this
on his own because he notices that dirt collects under them if they grow
to be too long, and he really doesn't like that.
Paul's twin, Leroy, is another story. He's a Juvenile Diabetic so I
have to insist that he brush his teeth 2 or 3 times a day. It's
unpleasant for everyone. He hates to do it and I hate insisting, but
it's necessary. The dentist says he really should be brushing 5 or 6
times a day. I often feel guilty because he rarely brushes that often.
But, we would be continually arguing and fighting over brushing.
Mimi
Sometimes he'll forget for 2 or 3 days and he'll notice they feel kind
of yucky and then he'll start brushing them again. He also has
fingernails that grow incredibly fast and sometimes get to be very
long. My husband and I used to clip them for him, but now he does this
on his own because he notices that dirt collects under them if they grow
to be too long, and he really doesn't like that.
Paul's twin, Leroy, is another story. He's a Juvenile Diabetic so I
have to insist that he brush his teeth 2 or 3 times a day. It's
unpleasant for everyone. He hates to do it and I hate insisting, but
it's necessary. The dentist says he really should be brushing 5 or 6
times a day. I often feel guilty because he rarely brushes that often.
But, we would be continually arguing and fighting over brushing.
Mimi
On Sunday, January 20, 2002, at 03:23 PM, Sarah Carothers wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:05:04 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
>> So how about this for a come back, why
>> do they have to get to the point of being embarrassed in
>> order to start brushing their teeth? So now what do you
>> say?
>
> May I respond?
> It doesn't have to get to the point of embarrassment. It can be a
> situation where they experience sensitive teeth and pain associated
> with the gums being irriated. I don't think embarrassment is the
> *key* to getting them to brush, although it sure works a *lot* of the
> time, especially when they are teens!
> my .02
> --
> Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
> Sarah Carothers
> puddles@...
> havabentley
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Lynda
I'm not sure how far I'd go unschooling wise with the brushing teeth thing
since there are health risks (not just cavity) from not brushing.
Now, as to modeling proper grammar, the language misuse on television has
always bugged me and I've always "corrected" the announcers, actors, etc. as
we watch. Eldest daughter (32 next month) decided that she needed some
college classes for job advancement. The business college she decided on
told her she had to take a set curriculum. This included Business English,
a report writing class and a transferable English class. She aced them and
called to tell me that all my muttering at the television and my muttering
over the grant planning drafts I "polished" had paid off because she
remembered everything I had been ragging about. The instructors had even
asked her about this because she was a re-entry student and it seems that a
lot of re-entry students have problems with English. She got a real kick
out of telling them she didn't take English classes, that she didn't
graduate from a public high school and that she had learned all the grammar
and punctuation rules listening to her mother.
Modeling works. When your kids are older you will be surprised at how many
times they come back and tell you how much they learned just by being around
you.
Lynda
since there are health risks (not just cavity) from not brushing.
Now, as to modeling proper grammar, the language misuse on television has
always bugged me and I've always "corrected" the announcers, actors, etc. as
we watch. Eldest daughter (32 next month) decided that she needed some
college classes for job advancement. The business college she decided on
told her she had to take a set curriculum. This included Business English,
a report writing class and a transferable English class. She aced them and
called to tell me that all my muttering at the television and my muttering
over the grant planning drafts I "polished" had paid off because she
remembered everything I had been ragging about. The instructors had even
asked her about this because she was a re-entry student and it seems that a
lot of re-entry students have problems with English. She got a real kick
out of telling them she didn't take English classes, that she didn't
graduate from a public high school and that she had learned all the grammar
and punctuation rules listening to her mother.
Modeling works. When your kids are older you will be surprised at how many
times they come back and tell you how much they learned just by being around
you.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Covering the basics
> Well Leslie that was a real mouth full and thank you for taking the time
even when you weren't feeling well. I so appreciate your directness. I
hate not really knowing what people are thinking because they are concerned
about hurting my feelings. These discussion are meant to help people sort
things out. This is good!
> In an earlier post I wrote:
> + How can we make it easier for
> + our kids to learn the things that require practice but are not
> + all that much fun?
>
> Leslies response to my question:
>
> + Can you give a specific example?
>
> Examples would be handwriting, multiplication and addition facts, grammar,
learning a foreign language and possibly some academics necessary for
college. I see that you don't feel it is our responsibility to "entertain
or educate". That sure makes my job easy!
>
> So why is learning to brush ones teeth or using good manners more
important than learning to write legibly? I could take the same approach
with basic life skills and figure when my kids got embarrassed enough about
their poor hygene they would do something about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm
99% sold on everything you are saying, but there is still that darned 1%.
This is what is bothering me - I think twice a day teeth brushing is an
important daily habit. My kids don't seem to think the same. I still have
to ask my 10 and 12 yos if they brushed their teeth, they don't always
remember. I don't make it fun for them, I talk to them about the importance
of it, I've helped them with a routine so they will always remember,and I
model good hygene myself, so what's up with that!! Do you realize how much
easier life is when we learn to clean as we go instead of letting things get
way out of hand and then getting mad, frustrated, embarrassed etc. enough to
try to learn to be neat. It takes years of small incremental training to
develop good life skills, why not take the same approach to some of the
basic academic skills?
>
> Here is what I think you will say. If the kids don't brush their teeth,
they will develop tooth decay and that is a consequence far different from
being embarrassed about your spelling. If however there was no health
related issue with not brushing their teeth, then they would remember to
brush their teeth on their own once they wanted to. So how about this for a
come back, why do they have to get to the point of being embarrassed in
order to start brushing their teeth? So now what do you say?
>
> Pat
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Lynda
Mimi, we cured the toothbrushing problem with the youngest kidlet by buying
her one of those battery operated toothbrushes. They come in all kinds of
shapes from movies now too. Might be a thought to help ease of the
aggravation. She also has her own toothpaste (she chooses it), mouthwash
and Plax like stuff. So, she "owns" brushing her teeth.
Lynda
her one of those battery operated toothbrushes. They come in all kinds of
shapes from movies now too. Might be a thought to help ease of the
aggravation. She also has her own toothpaste (she chooses it), mouthwash
and Plax like stuff. So, she "owns" brushing her teeth.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Groundhoggirl" <groundhoggirl@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Covering the basics
> My boys are 8 yo. Paul will usually brush his teeth once a day.
> Sometimes he'll forget for 2 or 3 days and he'll notice they feel kind
> of yucky and then he'll start brushing them again. He also has
> fingernails that grow incredibly fast and sometimes get to be very
> long. My husband and I used to clip them for him, but now he does this
> on his own because he notices that dirt collects under them if they grow
> to be too long, and he really doesn't like that.
>
> Paul's twin, Leroy, is another story. He's a Juvenile Diabetic so I
> have to insist that he brush his teeth 2 or 3 times a day. It's
> unpleasant for everyone. He hates to do it and I hate insisting, but
> it's necessary. The dentist says he really should be brushing 5 or 6
> times a day. I often feel guilty because he rarely brushes that often.
> But, we would be continually arguing and fighting over brushing.
>
> Mimi
>
>
> On Sunday, January 20, 2002, at 03:23 PM, Sarah Carothers wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:05:04 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
> >> So how about this for a come back, why
> >> do they have to get to the point of being embarrassed in
> >> order to start brushing their teeth? So now what do you
> >> say?
> >
> > May I respond?
> > It doesn't have to get to the point of embarrassment. It can be a
> > situation where they experience sensitive teeth and pain associated
> > with the gums being irriated. I don't think embarrassment is the
> > *key* to getting them to brush, although it sure works a *lot* of the
> > time, especially when they are teens!
> > my .02
> > --
> > Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
> > Sarah Carothers
> > puddles@...
> > havabentley
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Pat Cald...
It sounds like you may be the one to ask my *next* question. :-}
Both my daughters took up an instrument when they were in ps. My 10 yo played the violin in 3rd and 4th grade ps. My older dd started in 5th grade and played in 5th and 6th grade ps. This year, I've been paying for private lessons so they could continue their instruments while they homeschool. My 10 yo dd decided there was no purpose to playing the violin since she didn't have an orchestra to play with so she dropped it around Christmas. My 12 yo dd likes her cello, likes going to her lesson but does not practice much. I don't know the right way to handle this. I have a feeling that at some point, she will get more into playing and practicing just because she enjoys it. On the other hand, it seems kind of odd to keep pay for lessons when she doesn't practice. I asked her how long she thought I should continue to pay for her lessons if she wasn't practicing. She said she planned on practicing more and would not give me an answer. Any ideas?
Pat
Both my daughters took up an instrument when they were in ps. My 10 yo played the violin in 3rd and 4th grade ps. My older dd started in 5th grade and played in 5th and 6th grade ps. This year, I've been paying for private lessons so they could continue their instruments while they homeschool. My 10 yo dd decided there was no purpose to playing the violin since she didn't have an orchestra to play with so she dropped it around Christmas. My 12 yo dd likes her cello, likes going to her lesson but does not practice much. I don't know the right way to handle this. I have a feeling that at some point, she will get more into playing and practicing just because she enjoys it. On the other hand, it seems kind of odd to keep pay for lessons when she doesn't practice. I asked her how long she thought I should continue to pay for her lessons if she wasn't practicing. She said she planned on practicing more and would not give me an answer. Any ideas?
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Carothers
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Covering the basics
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:10:37 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
>Do you ever wonder what you might have done with your
>cello playing if you had learned at an earlier age?
>
>Do your children play an instrument? Just curious.
>
>Pat
(excuse the intrusion, Tia. I also have to throw in another .02 on
this one as well as await to read your response).
I have natural musical talents. I play by ear, sing very well and can
remember music like the back of my hand. When it was 'discovered'
that I could do this so easily, my parents made me sign up for music
lessons. I liked them at first but never was really crazy about them.
It felt like the need to get proper lessons was pushed way too soon
and sorta squashed my natural desire to do musical things. (the fun
was taken out of it and at an early age, it became a dreaded chore!).
I continued lessons because I was always told that was the *only*
thing I was good at and I was afraid that if I quit, I'd not have a
single thing in life to identify me. I got into college because of
my music... it *definitely* wasn't my unbelievably low SAT scores or
my GPA.
As soon as I discovered that I do, indeeed, have other 'talents' and
can have an identity outside of music, I stopped playing and have had
NO desire to touch a note since. I still sing in the car with the
windows rolled up, though<g>. Who knows where my musical talents
would have taken me had they not been shoved down my throat
*earlier*.
p.s. I don't mean for this to sound like I'm blaming my parents for
my outcome.... I pretty much dug my own hole way back when.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
Pat,
I don't know where you are located but there are a few fantastic
astronaut (spelling... ??) programs available. Not too long ago I
posted one similar to that field... something about flying.
Plug in NASA in a search engine and you'll probably find tons of
stuff.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't know where you are located but there are a few fantastic
astronaut (spelling... ??) programs available. Not too long ago I
posted one similar to that field... something about flying.
Plug in NASA in a search engine and you'll probably find tons of
stuff.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:28:47 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
suggestions and she doesn't take them, don't be discouraged. She's
just *now* at the threshold of even *thinking* about some of these
things... lots of kids don't think about their futures for quite a
few more years!~
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I guess I should lookPat, she is still quite young and if you throw out some ideas or
>into engineering careers so we can give her more of an in
>depth look. She is not asking what she needs to know in
>order to be an engineer, maybe I should look into that
>too.
suggestions and she doesn't take them, don't be discouraged. She's
just *now* at the threshold of even *thinking* about some of these
things... lots of kids don't think about their futures for quite a
few more years!~
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Groundhoggirl
Yes, I let the boys choose their own toothpaste also. We used to use
the electric toothbrushes a few years ago, but we switched back to
traditional brushes because of the expense. Teeth brushing has always
been a struggle with Leroy no matter what type of brush we use.
But, we haven't tried those battery-operated ones yet, so I'll
definitely give those a try. I'll let him pick it out himself, of
course. Thanks for the suggestion. I have to think more positively!
Mimi
the electric toothbrushes a few years ago, but we switched back to
traditional brushes because of the expense. Teeth brushing has always
been a struggle with Leroy no matter what type of brush we use.
But, we haven't tried those battery-operated ones yet, so I'll
definitely give those a try. I'll let him pick it out himself, of
course. Thanks for the suggestion. I have to think more positively!
Mimi
On Sunday, January 20, 2002, at 04:53 PM, Lynda wrote:
> Mimi, we cured the toothbrushing problem with the youngest kidlet by
> buying
> her one of those battery operated toothbrushes. They come in all kinds
> of
> shapes from movies now too. Might be a thought to help ease of the
> aggravation. She also has her own toothpaste (she chooses it),
> mouthwash
> and Plax like stuff. So, she "owns" brushing her teeth.
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Groundhoggirl" <groundhoggirl@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 2:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Covering the basics
>
>
>> My boys are 8 yo. Paul will usually brush his teeth once a day.
>> Sometimes he'll forget for 2 or 3 days and he'll notice they feel kind
>> of yucky and then he'll start brushing them again. He also has
>> fingernails that grow incredibly fast and sometimes get to be very
>> long. My husband and I used to clip them for him, but now he does this
>> on his own because he notices that dirt collects under them if they
>> grow
>> to be too long, and he really doesn't like that.
>>
>> Paul's twin, Leroy, is another story. He's a Juvenile Diabetic so I
>> have to insist that he brush his teeth 2 or 3 times a day. It's
>> unpleasant for everyone. He hates to do it and I hate insisting, but
>> it's necessary. The dentist says he really should be brushing 5 or 6
>> times a day. I often feel guilty because he rarely brushes that often.
>> But, we would be continually arguing and fighting over brushing.
>>
>> Mimi
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, January 20, 2002, at 03:23 PM, Sarah Carothers wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:05:04 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
>>>> So how about this for a come back, why
>>>> do they have to get to the point of being embarrassed in
>>>> order to start brushing their teeth? So now what do you
>>>> say?
>>>
>>> May I respond?
>>> It doesn't have to get to the point of embarrassment. It can be a
>>> situation where they experience sensitive teeth and pain associated
>>> with the gums being irriated. I don't think embarrassment is the
>>> *key* to getting them to brush, although it sure works a *lot* of the
>>> time, especially when they are teens!
>>> my .02
>>> --
>>> Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
>>> Sarah Carothers
>>> puddles@...
>>> havabentley
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>>> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>>>
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>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>>>
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>>> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>>
>> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>>
>> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
>> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Pat Cald...
Sarah,
We are 30 miles northeast of Washington D.C. Goddard is not too far from us. Are these programs you are speaking of for kids to participate in?
Pat
We are 30 miles northeast of Washington D.C. Goddard is not too far from us. Are these programs you are speaking of for kids to participate in?
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Carothers
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Covering the basics
Pat,
I don't know where you are located but there are a few fantastic
astronaut (spelling... ??) programs available. Not too long ago I
posted one similar to that field... something about flying.
Plug in NASA in a search engine and you'll probably find tons of
stuff.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:39:44 -0600, Groundhoggirl wrote:
unfamiliar with...
I'm wondering what would happen if you stopped taking responsibility
for his health and let him do it? Is there no leeway in there that
could allow you the opportunity to experiment with, say, brushing
teeth for a few months? You know it must be pretty frustrating for
Leroy to see his brother not have to do the same things he has to do.
I don't have any reference point to start from on this suggestion so
excuse if it's out of line....
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>At the risk of speaking way out of turn and on a topic I'm completely
>Paul's twin, Leroy, is another story. He's a Juvenile
>Diabetic so I
>have to insist that he brush his teeth 2 or 3 times a
>day.
unfamiliar with...
I'm wondering what would happen if you stopped taking responsibility
for his health and let him do it? Is there no leeway in there that
could allow you the opportunity to experiment with, say, brushing
teeth for a few months? You know it must be pretty frustrating for
Leroy to see his brother not have to do the same things he has to do.
I don't have any reference point to start from on this suggestion so
excuse if it's out of line....
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
Are these programs you are speaking
of for kids to participate in?
Yes, Pat and they're everywhere. I can't recall the link but in a
previous email to the list, I sent info from 'make a note' (an email
list service) that told about kids getting linked to airplane pilots
and getting a free demo and stuff like that. I'll try to locate it.
Meanwhile, try Surfing the Net With Kids links. They might be too
young for your kids but it could lead you to another site:
http://www.surfnetkids.com/spacekids.htm
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 1/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of for kids to participate in?
Yes, Pat and they're everywhere. I can't recall the link but in a
previous email to the list, I sent info from 'make a note' (an email
list service) that told about kids getting linked to airplane pilots
and getting a free demo and stuff like that. I'll try to locate it.
Meanwhile, try Surfing the Net With Kids links. They might be too
young for your kids but it could lead you to another site:
http://www.surfnetkids.com/spacekids.htm
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 1/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
Here's the post I had in mind, Pat
From: "Sarah Carothers" <puddles@t...>
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2001 10:36 am
Subject: free flying info
I subscribe to a post-it list which offers ideas, etc. This came
across and I
thought some of you here might be interested in it. Sarah
FREE FLIGHT FOR KIDS
If you have a child age 8-17, you can arrange for them to
have a free demonstration flight on a plane (usually small
personal prop planes). The Young Eagles Program is designed
to introduce young people to aviation. The pilot will
usually talk to the kids about the plane, aeronautical
charts/reference points, preflight inspections, instrument
panels, & the parts of the plane. While the flight is
usually a one day event, there are also summer programs
available at their headquarters. The flights can be found
all over the country. For more info on scheduling a flight
go to
http://www.youngeagles.org
or Email yeagles@e..., or call (920)426-4831. What a
great Christmas idea. POST IT...near your phone.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 1/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: "Sarah Carothers" <puddles@t...>
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2001 10:36 am
Subject: free flying info
I subscribe to a post-it list which offers ideas, etc. This came
across and I
thought some of you here might be interested in it. Sarah
FREE FLIGHT FOR KIDS
If you have a child age 8-17, you can arrange for them to
have a free demonstration flight on a plane (usually small
personal prop planes). The Young Eagles Program is designed
to introduce young people to aviation. The pilot will
usually talk to the kids about the plane, aeronautical
charts/reference points, preflight inspections, instrument
panels, & the parts of the plane. While the flight is
usually a one day event, there are also summer programs
available at their headquarters. The flights can be found
all over the country. For more info on scheduling a flight
go to
http://www.youngeagles.org
or Email yeagles@e..., or call (920)426-4831. What a
great Christmas idea. POST IT...near your phone.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 1/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
You can get a package of 4 generic ones for $15.00 at places like costco.
And places like K-Mart carry the "special" ones for about $12.00 each.
Lynda
And places like K-Mart carry the "special" ones for about $12.00 each.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Groundhoggirl" <groundhoggirl@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Covering the basics
> Yes, I let the boys choose their own toothpaste also. We used to use
> the electric toothbrushes a few years ago, but we switched back to
> traditional brushes because of the expense. Teeth brushing has always
> been a struggle with Leroy no matter what type of brush we use.
>
> But, we haven't tried those battery-operated ones yet, so I'll
> definitely give those a try. I'll let him pick it out himself, of
> course. Thanks for the suggestion. I have to think more positively!
>
> Mimi
>
> On Sunday, January 20, 2002, at 04:53 PM, Lynda wrote:
>
> > Mimi, we cured the toothbrushing problem with the youngest kidlet by
> > buying
> > her one of those battery operated toothbrushes. They come in all kinds
> > of
> > shapes from movies now too. Might be a thought to help ease of the
> > aggravation. She also has her own toothpaste (she chooses it),
> > mouthwash
> > and Plax like stuff. So, she "owns" brushing her teeth.
> >
> > Lynda
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Groundhoggirl" <groundhoggirl@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 2:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Covering the basics
> >
> >
> >> My boys are 8 yo. Paul will usually brush his teeth once a day.
> >> Sometimes he'll forget for 2 or 3 days and he'll notice they feel kind
> >> of yucky and then he'll start brushing them again. He also has
> >> fingernails that grow incredibly fast and sometimes get to be very
> >> long. My husband and I used to clip them for him, but now he does this
> >> on his own because he notices that dirt collects under them if they
> >> grow
> >> to be too long, and he really doesn't like that.
> >>
> >> Paul's twin, Leroy, is another story. He's a Juvenile Diabetic so I
> >> have to insist that he brush his teeth 2 or 3 times a day. It's
> >> unpleasant for everyone. He hates to do it and I hate insisting, but
> >> it's necessary. The dentist says he really should be brushing 5 or 6
> >> times a day. I often feel guilty because he rarely brushes that often.
> >> But, we would be continually arguing and fighting over brushing.
> >>
> >> Mimi
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sunday, January 20, 2002, at 03:23 PM, Sarah Carothers wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:05:04 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
> >>>> So how about this for a come back, why
> >>>> do they have to get to the point of being embarrassed in
> >>>> order to start brushing their teeth? So now what do you
> >>>> say?
> >>>
> >>> May I respond?
> >>> It doesn't have to get to the point of embarrassment. It can be a
> >>> situation where they experience sensitive teeth and pain associated
> >>> with the gums being irriated. I don't think embarrassment is the
> >>> *key* to getting them to brush, although it sure works a *lot* of the
> >>> time, especially when they are teens!
> >>> my .02
> >>> --
> >>> Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/20/2002
> >>> Sarah Carothers
> >>> puddles@...
> >>> havabentley
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> >>> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >>>
> >>> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >>>
> >>> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> >>> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> >> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >>
> >> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> >> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Leslie Moyer
+ The Young Eagles Program is designed
+ to introduce young people to aviation.
We've done this--at least my husband and older kids did. Also, Cafi Cohen
writes about the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) that her son, the pilot,
participated in when he was younger....that helped him get into the Air
Force (I think) academy. A homeschooling friend of mine participates with
CAP here and really likes it. In the Tulsa area alone there are 3 different
CAP programs--I'm sure there is one in your area, Pat. Here's a link:
http://www.cap.gov/
(I just found another interesting space camp link: http://www.cosmo.org/
and, in doing so, remembered a space camp for homeschoolers that someone who
helped with GWS conferences put on last year or year-before.....anyone have
more details?)
Also, there is a flight school near us and, in conjunction with Oklahoma
State University they run a summer flight camp. You might call around and
see what you can find in your area. My son went to it a couple years ago,
but was really disappointed with the wasted time....schooly kids who weren't
serious about being there. But this year he is finally old enough for the
high school camp they do. It is quite a bit more serious. I don't know if
he's interested in it or not yet--we just got the flyer for it in Friday's
mail and he was gone at a Scout campout all weekend.
He's not quite as interested in flying as he once was, though. My
father-in-law and all 3 of his brothers fly. They all flew in the military
and had small farm planes when they were younger. I think just one of them
still has a plane. One of my husband's uncles was a rocket
scientist--literally--for Boeing as an engineer. Anyway, for a long time
there I really thought Matthew would want to be a pilot and I was trying to
come to terms with the whole military thing as that's the most common
"route" into aviation.
My body aches from last night have turned into a full-blown raging flu, so
the other, more meaty post will have to wait until post-fever.... Ugh!
--Leslie Moyer / Oklahoma
+ to introduce young people to aviation.
We've done this--at least my husband and older kids did. Also, Cafi Cohen
writes about the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) that her son, the pilot,
participated in when he was younger....that helped him get into the Air
Force (I think) academy. A homeschooling friend of mine participates with
CAP here and really likes it. In the Tulsa area alone there are 3 different
CAP programs--I'm sure there is one in your area, Pat. Here's a link:
http://www.cap.gov/
(I just found another interesting space camp link: http://www.cosmo.org/
and, in doing so, remembered a space camp for homeschoolers that someone who
helped with GWS conferences put on last year or year-before.....anyone have
more details?)
Also, there is a flight school near us and, in conjunction with Oklahoma
State University they run a summer flight camp. You might call around and
see what you can find in your area. My son went to it a couple years ago,
but was really disappointed with the wasted time....schooly kids who weren't
serious about being there. But this year he is finally old enough for the
high school camp they do. It is quite a bit more serious. I don't know if
he's interested in it or not yet--we just got the flyer for it in Friday's
mail and he was gone at a Scout campout all weekend.
He's not quite as interested in flying as he once was, though. My
father-in-law and all 3 of his brothers fly. They all flew in the military
and had small farm planes when they were younger. I think just one of them
still has a plane. One of my husband's uncles was a rocket
scientist--literally--for Boeing as an engineer. Anyway, for a long time
there I really thought Matthew would want to be a pilot and I was trying to
come to terms with the whole military thing as that's the most common
"route" into aviation.
My body aches from last night have turned into a full-blown raging flu, so
the other, more meaty post will have to wait until post-fever.... Ugh!
--Leslie Moyer / Oklahoma
Sarah Carothers
Get well soon, Leslie! Lots of fluids, like your Mom used to say ....
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 1/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 1/20/2002
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@y...>
wrote:
different from being embarrassed about your spelling. If however
there was no health related issue with not brushing their teeth, then
they would remember to brush their teeth on their own once they
wanted to. So how about this for a come back, why do they have to
get to the point of being embarrassed in order to start brushing
their teeth? So now what do you say?
for my daughters. I never had to order the girls to brush their
teeth. They learned HOW from me when they were toddlers and they
just did it when they wanted to which was always enough to keep their
teeth reasonably healthy. So, in most cases I think a hands off
approach can work for this kind of issue. (However, do step in when
the gums are receding and the teeth are orange!)
I also think neatness is genetic. My dad was a pack-rat and so am I
and so are my kids. My dad had no organizational genes though. I
have a enough to get by and so do my girls. We still don't live like
my mother would like, but we aren't wallowing in stuff either. Now
that we have a room for everybody, I made it clear that I do not want
to be tripping on their stuff in the public areas. My working
projects are contained to the area around my chair, theirs have to be
contained in an equal fashion.
But then you get into the murky issue of handwriting. My was
atrocious until I got to college. My cursive is still atrocious. I
print, my dad always printed and the brothers that were my dad lost
contact with when they were 4 and 6 print. When I got in touch with
my half brother as an adult, I was SHOCKED at the similarity in our
writing. There has to be a genetic link there.
I think being able to communicate is important but cursive writing
isn't. Ask yourself if the child in question is capable of leaving
you a note that you can read. If the answer is yes, the child is
functional enough and can make his own decision about how important
neatness and practice are. And it does not matter one bit if the
note is cursive, printed or typed. As long as the child can
communicate when he needs to, all is well. (age is a factor here
too. I think as teh mom of teens. If you have toddlers, don't
expect note writing yet.)
Bridget
wrote:
> Here is what I think you will say. If the kids don't brush theirteeth, they will develop tooth decay and that is a consequence far
different from being embarrassed about your spelling. If however
there was no health related issue with not brushing their teeth, then
they would remember to brush their teeth on their own once they
wanted to. So how about this for a come back, why do they have to
get to the point of being embarrassed in order to start brushing
their teeth? So now what do you say?
>This is another one of those issues that is different for my son than
> Pat
>
for my daughters. I never had to order the girls to brush their
teeth. They learned HOW from me when they were toddlers and they
just did it when they wanted to which was always enough to keep their
teeth reasonably healthy. So, in most cases I think a hands off
approach can work for this kind of issue. (However, do step in when
the gums are receding and the teeth are orange!)
I also think neatness is genetic. My dad was a pack-rat and so am I
and so are my kids. My dad had no organizational genes though. I
have a enough to get by and so do my girls. We still don't live like
my mother would like, but we aren't wallowing in stuff either. Now
that we have a room for everybody, I made it clear that I do not want
to be tripping on their stuff in the public areas. My working
projects are contained to the area around my chair, theirs have to be
contained in an equal fashion.
But then you get into the murky issue of handwriting. My was
atrocious until I got to college. My cursive is still atrocious. I
print, my dad always printed and the brothers that were my dad lost
contact with when they were 4 and 6 print. When I got in touch with
my half brother as an adult, I was SHOCKED at the similarity in our
writing. There has to be a genetic link there.
I think being able to communicate is important but cursive writing
isn't. Ask yourself if the child in question is capable of leaving
you a note that you can read. If the answer is yes, the child is
functional enough and can make his own decision about how important
neatness and practice are. And it does not matter one bit if the
note is cursive, printed or typed. As long as the child can
communicate when he needs to, all is well. (age is a factor here
too. I think as teh mom of teens. If you have toddlers, don't
expect note writing yet.)
Bridget