FW: Multiplication II
Leslie Moyer
I was just going through my "sent" folder of my email program and came
across this reply I wrote to someone in November. It is someone I met at a
Libertarian Party meeting where I went to speak about homeschooling. He and
I had corresponded about a year before this....just as he was awaiting the
birth of his first child! :-) He's interested in unschooling, but is still
trying to "figure it out". I don't know if anyone will find it
interesting....or even if you'll agree with me, but I thought I'd send it
along before deleting from my files. "David's" questions are preceeded by
"+" and my answers follow.
-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Moyer [mailto:LeslieMoyer@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:00 PM
To: David
Subject: Multiplication II
+ I think I just wanted to understand more about what the
+ average unschooler believes about "pushing". Reading the old
+ email, you mentioned that your children didn't learn multiplication
+ tables until they saw they needed them. Once they started
+ learning them, did you make them stick to some sort of program
+ or schedule until they had them memorized?
+
+ When do you "make" them complete something, or do a job,
+ or whatever - if at all? Do they have to "finish what they start"?
Ok.....I wish I could read what I wrote last time so I'd remember where I
stopped or what I could explain better now, but I'll just give it a try.
If you haven't been to the unschooling.com website, you might enjoy reading
it. If you ask these kinds of questions there, I think you'll get some
pretty stark responses, but I'm sure they would contribute to your
understanding of unschooling. Remember that, like most philosophies,
"unschooling" is a place on a continuum--not a specific set of absolutes.
So what you hear from one unschooler will be different from what you hear
from another.
Ok, to pick up at multiplication tables....my (older 2) children still don't
really KNOW their multiplication tables. They know HOW to multiply and they
know enough of them to figure out most problems in a relatively short amount
of time, but they still don't have them all memorized.
I think when the last time we wrote, I had encouraged them to learn them and
they more or less agreed with me and were working on it. However, to answer
your question about "sticking to it", the answer is "no"--at least this
particular time.
Anytime I come up against a preconceived notion of "what they should learn",
I step back and reconsider it. If my children don't balk at it, I don't
necessarily have a reason to reconsider it, but if they do then I try to
look at it through their untarnished eyes. (Their untarnished eyes are my
greatest tool in this unschooling journey! They haven't been brainwashed by
the institutional school system as I was.) What is the point of memorizing
multiplication tables? If my kids know how to figure out the answers to
multiplication problems, does it matter how fast they do them? Under what
circumstances would they NEED to do multiplication quickly? How quickly?
When do I use multiplication in my daily life and what are the consequences
of doing it more slowly? What are the consequences of doing it wrong? What
motivates me to do it correctly and/or quickly? What tools do I
always/sometimes/never have at my disposal when I'm doing multiplication?
At what age will my children need to have multiplication tables memorized?
Is it different if they're an artist or a businessman or an astronaut or a
lawyer or a sales clerk or a homemaker or a chef or a ballerina? How long
would it take an adult to memorize them if they chose to? How many adults
have them fully memorized? (It still takes me longer to remember the upper
7s, 8s and 9s myself.) What is the practical definition of "memorized"?
While I'd still prefer that they memorized their multiplication tables and I
won't stop encouraging this from time to time, I don't really think it is
urgent for them to memorize them....nor is it necessarily important for them
to memorize them at all. I think I probably discussed with you the
differences between "teaching" and "learning". (Teaching is only very
distantly related to learning--and only if the "student" is motivated to
learn.) The differences even apply to "encouraging" and "learning". Only
THEY can "learn". It is an internal process over which I have no control.
If you disagree with this, imagine a scenario where it could be true
(teacher and uninterested student) and I think you can agree. It (relative
futility of teaching) doesn't stop being true just because it is an
"important" thing to know. Part of unschooling is giving up that which you
have no control over anyway. There are ways to manipulate control, but
they're usually not good for the HUMAN BEING over which control is being
asserted. And this whole issue of "control" is what I see as the primary
harm inflicted by institutional schools (and, in turn, what makes
Libertarian politics so hard for some people to grasp).
For me, the "balancing act" of unschooling is weighing what I think is
important to know in life with who I hope my children will be as human
beings. ("Weighing" it means the two things are sometimes equal; sometimes
one side or the other is more important; sometimes they're both on the same
side of the scale.) It's also always interesting to talk with other
homeschooling parents to see the differences in what THEY think is important
to know. Or, for that matter, to look at various states' mandatory
curriculums.
My son enrolled in a correspondence school last January. He will be
skipping basic math in order to take Algebra I, II and Geometry (for the
benefit of college admissions). In order to do Algebra, there are some
basic math concepts that he hasn't yet learned. (Rules for multiplying,
dividing fractions, for example.) So, I found a "review" math book that has
all math concepts from K-8th grade. He's used it some, but not much since
he hasn't started Algebra yet and doesn't really have much incentive yet.
However, for him, math is very logical and he can understand these concepts
in just seconds, where it took me years of elementary school review to "get
it".
This correspondence school (American School) was his idea (I have mixed
feelings about it), but we've paid for it so I expect him to do what he said
he would do. However.....just last night I went back to tell him goodnight
and he was reading (as always). I had planned to talk with him about
picking up his American School texts again (following a vacation to
Germany). But when I went back there, the book he was reading was a physics
book (The Handy Physics Answer Book) that wasn't part of his American School
work. I just felt that I couldn't tell him to put down that valuable book
that he picked on his own in order to read a text book that was (at that
moment, at least) less interesting to him. He's always been very interested
in physics, in fact, and reads a lot about physics, physics philosophy, and
physicists.
He's also been learning (teaching himself) how to play the guitar. Even
that, I can rationalize, may be more important for HIS LIFE than memorizing
his multiplication tables or working in a Biology textbook. Maybe his life
path will lead him to be the next James Taylor. Would I rather he be an
accountant if it is his nature to be a musician? Or maybe learning the
guitar will do nothing more than bring him personal pleasure in life. Is
that to be discouraged over multiplication tables? Unschooling allows
people to become who THEY choose to be...who they are TALENTED at being.
I spend a lot of time explaining how unschooling works with my son--my
oldest. That's because of several complex reasons. First, he is the oldest
and I've been "figuring him out" for the longest now. Second, his
particular interests are "conventional" and numerous. He's interested in
many scholarly things and I can visualize him as a successful (and happy)
adult in many different vocations. Third, my second child is more difficult
to explain in terms that would help you understand unschooling. She even
challenges MY ideas about unschooling on a daily basis! I've only recently
been able to see an adult life for her that makes sense to me and still
holds true to my unschooling beliefs. My third child is more like my first,
though her interests are quite different from my oldest's. (One important
thing they have in common is a passion for reading, which my second child
lacks.) I'll have to explain more about that in another letter, though, if
you're interested.
OK, the second part of your question had to do with "finishing what they
start". I touched on this with regard to Matthew's choice of American
School above. We're paying about $1000 for it and I do expect him to finish
what he started--this commitment he chose to make. However, on a day-to-day
basis, it's more complicated than that (as per the example I gave above). I
want him to finish it, but I'd rather he be true to himself.....if the two
things happen to be in conflict. I hope they won't be, but if/when they
are, we'll take it one issue at a time. Anyway, I'll try to explain
something with a more short-term example.....
Again, I would have to start with asking myself, "what are the consequences
of NOT finishing this particular thing?" In the long term, I believe that
it is a good character trait to finish what you started....usually. I can
agree that in general terms, it is a good value to have. It's good to be
able to stick with something, even if it is not too enjoyable, for a greater
reward. (The key, often being "reward"--tangible or intangible.) But in
reality, most of us start WAY more things than we finish.
And I've also done some reading that suggests that starting projects may be
as important, or more important, to a child (and perhaps to an adult) than
finishing them....that they are a necessary part of the process of learning.
I'll use art projects as an example. When my children were about 4-6 years
old, they went through a process where they worked on an art project to the
point of destroying it. They would add glue or paint or markers or glitter
to a project to the point of it disintegrating. Often they would start a
project and lose interest in it before it was done...or more likely, it was
hard to determine what "done" was. Art was just always a work in progress.
The ACT of creating WAS the purpose.
While I think it's probably easier to see this with art than with other
"subjects", I can see many parallels. Institutional school has told us the
following lies: 1. Learning is accomplished when you have a
visible/complete/correct product. 2. Learning is linear and sequential. 3.
Learning is measurable. 4. Education means learning a specific set of
information.
Instead, I believe that learning is often invisible, always incomplete,
takes place with both correct and incorrect "products", is almost never
linear nor sequential, is only vaguely measurable and does not include any
particular set of universal information. So....if your question is "should
I make them finish what they start"? then I would say that learning is never
finished nor, in my house, is it often formally "started". It's just an
ongoing process.
On a more concrete level (which is what I'm sure you'd rather I explain!),
there ARE projects that do have a beginning, middle, and end in our home.
Specific house-cleaning chores are one thing that comes to mind (but one of
the only things!). In that case, I do ask that they be completed because
they affect other people. At the moment, I can't think of other situations
where I insist on "completion". Matt's American School stuff is a
possibility....we do have money invested in this particular project....I
just don't think money is a sufficient enough reason to insist on
completion.
Does that at all answer your question?
For unschoolers, the bottom line is that IF a thing is important to know--in
REAL LIFE important and/or interesting for that INDIVIDUAL to know, they can
and will learn it. If you can think of things you've learned as an adult, I
think that will make sense to you.
For me, a recent example is the learning that I've done because of recent
world events. I can't say that I necessarily enjoy learning about Islam and
Middle East history, but I am now motivated to learn such things as I feel
they may have an impact on my life and livelihood.
One last thing....as a mother, I have those natural desires for my children
to be successful. I want them to be free of financial worries and to be
able to spend time with their children and do enjoyable things with their
lives. I have a (also natural, I think) fear that unschooling won't provide
these things. But I try to balance that with the reality of what I *see* in
them and also, as I said, to acknowledge the lack of control I have over
these things. Also, I really do feel that unschooling will allow them to
excel in the things that THEY are good at and enjoy. Every person in
history who we know to be successful accomplished that in an area in which
they had a natural talent. THAT is the natural order of things--not the way
the schools have manipulated education.
In closing--here's a related, funny cartoon I read this morning. (Can't
find the illustration online--it is from Dave Coverly at
www.speedbump.com --October 4 cartoon.) One old woman to another as they
look at a man reading: "That's my boy, Mark...He's 39, but he's already
reading at a 42-year-old level..." Lower caption reads, "Mrs. Randolf takes
mother's pride too far."
Have a nice Thanksgiving,
Leslie
across this reply I wrote to someone in November. It is someone I met at a
Libertarian Party meeting where I went to speak about homeschooling. He and
I had corresponded about a year before this....just as he was awaiting the
birth of his first child! :-) He's interested in unschooling, but is still
trying to "figure it out". I don't know if anyone will find it
interesting....or even if you'll agree with me, but I thought I'd send it
along before deleting from my files. "David's" questions are preceeded by
"+" and my answers follow.
-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Moyer [mailto:LeslieMoyer@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:00 PM
To: David
Subject: Multiplication II
+ I think I just wanted to understand more about what the
+ average unschooler believes about "pushing". Reading the old
+ email, you mentioned that your children didn't learn multiplication
+ tables until they saw they needed them. Once they started
+ learning them, did you make them stick to some sort of program
+ or schedule until they had them memorized?
+
+ When do you "make" them complete something, or do a job,
+ or whatever - if at all? Do they have to "finish what they start"?
Ok.....I wish I could read what I wrote last time so I'd remember where I
stopped or what I could explain better now, but I'll just give it a try.
If you haven't been to the unschooling.com website, you might enjoy reading
it. If you ask these kinds of questions there, I think you'll get some
pretty stark responses, but I'm sure they would contribute to your
understanding of unschooling. Remember that, like most philosophies,
"unschooling" is a place on a continuum--not a specific set of absolutes.
So what you hear from one unschooler will be different from what you hear
from another.
Ok, to pick up at multiplication tables....my (older 2) children still don't
really KNOW their multiplication tables. They know HOW to multiply and they
know enough of them to figure out most problems in a relatively short amount
of time, but they still don't have them all memorized.
I think when the last time we wrote, I had encouraged them to learn them and
they more or less agreed with me and were working on it. However, to answer
your question about "sticking to it", the answer is "no"--at least this
particular time.
Anytime I come up against a preconceived notion of "what they should learn",
I step back and reconsider it. If my children don't balk at it, I don't
necessarily have a reason to reconsider it, but if they do then I try to
look at it through their untarnished eyes. (Their untarnished eyes are my
greatest tool in this unschooling journey! They haven't been brainwashed by
the institutional school system as I was.) What is the point of memorizing
multiplication tables? If my kids know how to figure out the answers to
multiplication problems, does it matter how fast they do them? Under what
circumstances would they NEED to do multiplication quickly? How quickly?
When do I use multiplication in my daily life and what are the consequences
of doing it more slowly? What are the consequences of doing it wrong? What
motivates me to do it correctly and/or quickly? What tools do I
always/sometimes/never have at my disposal when I'm doing multiplication?
At what age will my children need to have multiplication tables memorized?
Is it different if they're an artist or a businessman or an astronaut or a
lawyer or a sales clerk or a homemaker or a chef or a ballerina? How long
would it take an adult to memorize them if they chose to? How many adults
have them fully memorized? (It still takes me longer to remember the upper
7s, 8s and 9s myself.) What is the practical definition of "memorized"?
While I'd still prefer that they memorized their multiplication tables and I
won't stop encouraging this from time to time, I don't really think it is
urgent for them to memorize them....nor is it necessarily important for them
to memorize them at all. I think I probably discussed with you the
differences between "teaching" and "learning". (Teaching is only very
distantly related to learning--and only if the "student" is motivated to
learn.) The differences even apply to "encouraging" and "learning". Only
THEY can "learn". It is an internal process over which I have no control.
If you disagree with this, imagine a scenario where it could be true
(teacher and uninterested student) and I think you can agree. It (relative
futility of teaching) doesn't stop being true just because it is an
"important" thing to know. Part of unschooling is giving up that which you
have no control over anyway. There are ways to manipulate control, but
they're usually not good for the HUMAN BEING over which control is being
asserted. And this whole issue of "control" is what I see as the primary
harm inflicted by institutional schools (and, in turn, what makes
Libertarian politics so hard for some people to grasp).
For me, the "balancing act" of unschooling is weighing what I think is
important to know in life with who I hope my children will be as human
beings. ("Weighing" it means the two things are sometimes equal; sometimes
one side or the other is more important; sometimes they're both on the same
side of the scale.) It's also always interesting to talk with other
homeschooling parents to see the differences in what THEY think is important
to know. Or, for that matter, to look at various states' mandatory
curriculums.
My son enrolled in a correspondence school last January. He will be
skipping basic math in order to take Algebra I, II and Geometry (for the
benefit of college admissions). In order to do Algebra, there are some
basic math concepts that he hasn't yet learned. (Rules for multiplying,
dividing fractions, for example.) So, I found a "review" math book that has
all math concepts from K-8th grade. He's used it some, but not much since
he hasn't started Algebra yet and doesn't really have much incentive yet.
However, for him, math is very logical and he can understand these concepts
in just seconds, where it took me years of elementary school review to "get
it".
This correspondence school (American School) was his idea (I have mixed
feelings about it), but we've paid for it so I expect him to do what he said
he would do. However.....just last night I went back to tell him goodnight
and he was reading (as always). I had planned to talk with him about
picking up his American School texts again (following a vacation to
Germany). But when I went back there, the book he was reading was a physics
book (The Handy Physics Answer Book) that wasn't part of his American School
work. I just felt that I couldn't tell him to put down that valuable book
that he picked on his own in order to read a text book that was (at that
moment, at least) less interesting to him. He's always been very interested
in physics, in fact, and reads a lot about physics, physics philosophy, and
physicists.
He's also been learning (teaching himself) how to play the guitar. Even
that, I can rationalize, may be more important for HIS LIFE than memorizing
his multiplication tables or working in a Biology textbook. Maybe his life
path will lead him to be the next James Taylor. Would I rather he be an
accountant if it is his nature to be a musician? Or maybe learning the
guitar will do nothing more than bring him personal pleasure in life. Is
that to be discouraged over multiplication tables? Unschooling allows
people to become who THEY choose to be...who they are TALENTED at being.
I spend a lot of time explaining how unschooling works with my son--my
oldest. That's because of several complex reasons. First, he is the oldest
and I've been "figuring him out" for the longest now. Second, his
particular interests are "conventional" and numerous. He's interested in
many scholarly things and I can visualize him as a successful (and happy)
adult in many different vocations. Third, my second child is more difficult
to explain in terms that would help you understand unschooling. She even
challenges MY ideas about unschooling on a daily basis! I've only recently
been able to see an adult life for her that makes sense to me and still
holds true to my unschooling beliefs. My third child is more like my first,
though her interests are quite different from my oldest's. (One important
thing they have in common is a passion for reading, which my second child
lacks.) I'll have to explain more about that in another letter, though, if
you're interested.
OK, the second part of your question had to do with "finishing what they
start". I touched on this with regard to Matthew's choice of American
School above. We're paying about $1000 for it and I do expect him to finish
what he started--this commitment he chose to make. However, on a day-to-day
basis, it's more complicated than that (as per the example I gave above). I
want him to finish it, but I'd rather he be true to himself.....if the two
things happen to be in conflict. I hope they won't be, but if/when they
are, we'll take it one issue at a time. Anyway, I'll try to explain
something with a more short-term example.....
Again, I would have to start with asking myself, "what are the consequences
of NOT finishing this particular thing?" In the long term, I believe that
it is a good character trait to finish what you started....usually. I can
agree that in general terms, it is a good value to have. It's good to be
able to stick with something, even if it is not too enjoyable, for a greater
reward. (The key, often being "reward"--tangible or intangible.) But in
reality, most of us start WAY more things than we finish.
And I've also done some reading that suggests that starting projects may be
as important, or more important, to a child (and perhaps to an adult) than
finishing them....that they are a necessary part of the process of learning.
I'll use art projects as an example. When my children were about 4-6 years
old, they went through a process where they worked on an art project to the
point of destroying it. They would add glue or paint or markers or glitter
to a project to the point of it disintegrating. Often they would start a
project and lose interest in it before it was done...or more likely, it was
hard to determine what "done" was. Art was just always a work in progress.
The ACT of creating WAS the purpose.
While I think it's probably easier to see this with art than with other
"subjects", I can see many parallels. Institutional school has told us the
following lies: 1. Learning is accomplished when you have a
visible/complete/correct product. 2. Learning is linear and sequential. 3.
Learning is measurable. 4. Education means learning a specific set of
information.
Instead, I believe that learning is often invisible, always incomplete,
takes place with both correct and incorrect "products", is almost never
linear nor sequential, is only vaguely measurable and does not include any
particular set of universal information. So....if your question is "should
I make them finish what they start"? then I would say that learning is never
finished nor, in my house, is it often formally "started". It's just an
ongoing process.
On a more concrete level (which is what I'm sure you'd rather I explain!),
there ARE projects that do have a beginning, middle, and end in our home.
Specific house-cleaning chores are one thing that comes to mind (but one of
the only things!). In that case, I do ask that they be completed because
they affect other people. At the moment, I can't think of other situations
where I insist on "completion". Matt's American School stuff is a
possibility....we do have money invested in this particular project....I
just don't think money is a sufficient enough reason to insist on
completion.
Does that at all answer your question?
For unschoolers, the bottom line is that IF a thing is important to know--in
REAL LIFE important and/or interesting for that INDIVIDUAL to know, they can
and will learn it. If you can think of things you've learned as an adult, I
think that will make sense to you.
For me, a recent example is the learning that I've done because of recent
world events. I can't say that I necessarily enjoy learning about Islam and
Middle East history, but I am now motivated to learn such things as I feel
they may have an impact on my life and livelihood.
One last thing....as a mother, I have those natural desires for my children
to be successful. I want them to be free of financial worries and to be
able to spend time with their children and do enjoyable things with their
lives. I have a (also natural, I think) fear that unschooling won't provide
these things. But I try to balance that with the reality of what I *see* in
them and also, as I said, to acknowledge the lack of control I have over
these things. Also, I really do feel that unschooling will allow them to
excel in the things that THEY are good at and enjoy. Every person in
history who we know to be successful accomplished that in an area in which
they had a natural talent. THAT is the natural order of things--not the way
the schools have manipulated education.
In closing--here's a related, funny cartoon I read this morning. (Can't
find the illustration online--it is from Dave Coverly at
www.speedbump.com --October 4 cartoon.) One old woman to another as they
look at a man reading: "That's my boy, Mark...He's 39, but he's already
reading at a 42-year-old level..." Lower caption reads, "Mrs. Randolf takes
mother's pride too far."
Have a nice Thanksgiving,
Leslie
Angela
Dear Leslie,
I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughts. I saved them to re-read when my
girls are older, should I get the doubts at all. :0)
Just the other day, my mom said "Don't you think there will come a day when
they will *have* to learn something they don't want to?"
"I think they will want to if it is something they see as a need" was my
response.
Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
My Unschooling Page!
http://www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -
William Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughts. I saved them to re-read when my
girls are older, should I get the doubts at all. :0)
Just the other day, my mom said "Don't you think there will come a day when
they will *have* to learn something they don't want to?"
"I think they will want to if it is something they see as a need" was my
response.
Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
My Unschooling Page!
http://www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -
William Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
Leslie, I loved your post. It's one you should keep and have it
continue to circle through the newbies ;-)
Hang onto it!
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
continue to circle through the newbies ;-)
Hang onto it!
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
havabentley@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kaydeecross
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Leslie Moyer" <LeslieMoyer@g...>
wrote:
I really enjoyed your insights.
kolleen
wrote:
>Remember that, like most philosophies,"unschooling" is a place on aThank you Leslie, this post is definately worth reading twice!
>continuum--not a specific set of absolutes.
> So what you hear from one unschooler will be
>different from what you hear
> from another.
I really enjoyed your insights.
kolleen
elana weisberg
Wow, this is why we chose to unschool! I do not understand why anyone should attempt the "basics" outside of breathing, eating and sleeping. My children, 13, 11, 10 and 3 1/2 have the basics down pat. Beyond that I feel my role is to nurture their desires. I have one who wanted to play the violin after seeing Sesame Street go Classic, well eight yr. later she is an accomplished violinist, however, she never performs publicly...only for herself, no talent shows...My son 11, prefers to be imaginative , he creates concoctions in the kitchen almost daily, he is learning the "basic" far more competently than I did, I cannot cook, he can! I guess every family has their own journey. My hope is that my children feel the freedom is there and theirs to choose.
Elana is AZ
Elana is AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: kaydeecross
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 7:25 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: FW: Multiplication II
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Leslie Moyer" <LeslieMoyer@g...>
wrote:
>Remember that, like most philosophies,"unschooling" is a place on a
>continuum--not a specific set of absolutes.
> So what you hear from one unschooler will be
>different from what you hear
> from another.
Thank you Leslie, this post is definately worth reading twice!
I really enjoyed your insights.
kolleen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karin
Hi Elana,
Just noticed you said you're in AZ (I think).
I am too, in Phoenix.
Where are you in AZ?
Karin
elana weisberg wrote:
Wow, this is why we chose to unschool! I do not understand why anyone should attempt the "basics" outside of breathing, eating and sleeping. My children, 13, 11, 10 and 3 1/2 have the basics down pat. Beyond that I feel my role is to nurture their desires. I have one who wanted to play the violin after seeing Sesame Street go Classic, well eight yr. later she is an accomplished violinist, however, she never performs publicly...only for herself, no talent shows...My son 11, prefers to be imaginative , he creates concoctions in the kitchen almost daily, he is learning the "basic" far more competently than I did, I cannot cook, he can! I guess every family has their own journey. My hope is that my children feel the freedom is there and theirs to choose.
Elana is AZ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just noticed you said you're in AZ (I think).
I am too, in Phoenix.
Where are you in AZ?
Karin
elana weisberg wrote:
Wow, this is why we chose to unschool! I do not understand why anyone should attempt the "basics" outside of breathing, eating and sleeping. My children, 13, 11, 10 and 3 1/2 have the basics down pat. Beyond that I feel my role is to nurture their desires. I have one who wanted to play the violin after seeing Sesame Street go Classic, well eight yr. later she is an accomplished violinist, however, she never performs publicly...only for herself, no talent shows...My son 11, prefers to be imaginative , he creates concoctions in the kitchen almost daily, he is learning the "basic" far more competently than I did, I cannot cook, he can! I guess every family has their own journey. My hope is that my children feel the freedom is there and theirs to choose.
Elana is AZ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christina Morrissey
Beautifully done....thank you for expressing thoughts of which I was
unaware, and which I could never have voiced so
eloquently! Christina...Bothell..WA
At 12:51 AM 1/19/2002 -0600, you wrote:
unaware, and which I could never have voiced so
eloquently! Christina...Bothell..WA
At 12:51 AM 1/19/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>I was just going through my "sent" folder of my email program and came
>across this reply I wrote to someone in November. It is someone I met at a
>Libertarian Party meeting where I went to speak about homeschooling. He and
>I had corresponded about a year before this....just as he was awaiting the
>birth of his first child! :-) He's interested in unschooling, but is still
>trying to "figure it out". I don't know if anyone will find it
>interesting....or even if you'll agree with me, but I thought I'd send it
>along before deleting from my files. "David's" questions are preceeded by
>"+" and my answers follow.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Leslie Moyer [mailto:LeslieMoyer@...]
>Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:00 PM
>To: David
>Subject: Multiplication II
>
>
>+ I think I just wanted to understand more about what the
>+ average unschooler believes about "pushing". Reading the old
>+ email, you mentioned that your children didn't learn multiplication
>+ tables until they saw they needed them. Once they started
>+ learning them, did you make them stick to some sort of program
>+ or schedule until they had them memorized?
>+
>+ When do you "make" them complete something, or do a job,
>+ or whatever - if at all? Do they have to "finish what they start"?
>
>
>Ok.....I wish I could read what I wrote last time so I'd remember where I
>stopped or what I could explain better now, but I'll just give it a try.
>
>If you haven't been to the unschooling.com website, you might enjoy reading
>it. If you ask these kinds of questions there, I think you'll get some
>pretty stark responses, but I'm sure they would contribute to your
>understanding of unschooling. Remember that, like most philosophies,
>"unschooling" is a place on a continuum--not a specific set of absolutes.
>So what you hear from one unschooler will be different from what you hear
>from another.
>
>Ok, to pick up at multiplication tables....my (older 2) children still don't
>really KNOW their multiplication tables. They know HOW to multiply and they
>know enough of them to figure out most problems in a relatively short amount
>of time, but they still don't have them all memorized.
>
>I think when the last time we wrote, I had encouraged them to learn them and
>they more or less agreed with me and were working on it. However, to answer
>your question about "sticking to it", the answer is "no"--at least this
>particular time.
>
>Anytime I come up against a preconceived notion of "what they should learn",
>I step back and reconsider it. If my children don't balk at it, I don't
>necessarily have a reason to reconsider it, but if they do then I try to
>look at it through their untarnished eyes. (Their untarnished eyes are my
>greatest tool in this unschooling journey! They haven't been brainwashed by
>the institutional school system as I was.) What is the point of memorizing
>multiplication tables? If my kids know how to figure out the answers to
>multiplication problems, does it matter how fast they do them? Under what
>circumstances would they NEED to do multiplication quickly? How quickly?
>When do I use multiplication in my daily life and what are the consequences
>of doing it more slowly? What are the consequences of doing it wrong? What
>motivates me to do it correctly and/or quickly? What tools do I
>always/sometimes/never have at my disposal when I'm doing multiplication?
>At what age will my children need to have multiplication tables memorized?
>Is it different if they're an artist or a businessman or an astronaut or a
>lawyer or a sales clerk or a homemaker or a chef or a ballerina? How long
>would it take an adult to memorize them if they chose to? How many adults
>have them fully memorized? (It still takes me longer to remember the upper
>7s, 8s and 9s myself.) What is the practical definition of "memorized"?
>
>While I'd still prefer that they memorized their multiplication tables and I
>won't stop encouraging this from time to time, I don't really think it is
>urgent for them to memorize them....nor is it necessarily important for them
>to memorize them at all. I think I probably discussed with you the
>differences between "teaching" and "learning". (Teaching is only very
>distantly related to learning--and only if the "student" is motivated to
>learn.) The differences even apply to "encouraging" and "learning". Only
>THEY can "learn". It is an internal process over which I have no control.
>If you disagree with this, imagine a scenario where it could be true
>(teacher and uninterested student) and I think you can agree. It (relative
>futility of teaching) doesn't stop being true just because it is an
>"important" thing to know. Part of unschooling is giving up that which you
>have no control over anyway. There are ways to manipulate control, but
>they're usually not good for the HUMAN BEING over which control is being
>asserted. And this whole issue of "control" is what I see as the primary
>harm inflicted by institutional schools (and, in turn, what makes
>Libertarian politics so hard for some people to grasp).
>
>For me, the "balancing act" of unschooling is weighing what I think is
>important to know in life with who I hope my children will be as human
>beings. ("Weighing" it means the two things are sometimes equal; sometimes
>one side or the other is more important; sometimes they're both on the same
>side of the scale.) It's also always interesting to talk with other
>homeschooling parents to see the differences in what THEY think is important
>to know. Or, for that matter, to look at various states' mandatory
>curriculums.
>
>My son enrolled in a correspondence school last January. He will be
>skipping basic math in order to take Algebra I, II and Geometry (for the
>benefit of college admissions). In order to do Algebra, there are some
>basic math concepts that he hasn't yet learned. (Rules for multiplying,
>dividing fractions, for example.) So, I found a "review" math book that has
>all math concepts from K-8th grade. He's used it some, but not much since
>he hasn't started Algebra yet and doesn't really have much incentive yet.
>However, for him, math is very logical and he can understand these concepts
>in just seconds, where it took me years of elementary school review to "get
>it".
>
>This correspondence school (American School) was his idea (I have mixed
>feelings about it), but we've paid for it so I expect him to do what he said
>he would do. However.....just last night I went back to tell him goodnight
>and he was reading (as always). I had planned to talk with him about
>picking up his American School texts again (following a vacation to
>Germany). But when I went back there, the book he was reading was a physics
>book (The Handy Physics Answer Book) that wasn't part of his American School
>work. I just felt that I couldn't tell him to put down that valuable book
>that he picked on his own in order to read a text book that was (at that
>moment, at least) less interesting to him. He's always been very interested
>in physics, in fact, and reads a lot about physics, physics philosophy, and
>physicists.
>
>He's also been learning (teaching himself) how to play the guitar. Even
>that, I can rationalize, may be more important for HIS LIFE than memorizing
>his multiplication tables or working in a Biology textbook. Maybe his life
>path will lead him to be the next James Taylor. Would I rather he be an
>accountant if it is his nature to be a musician? Or maybe learning the
>guitar will do nothing more than bring him personal pleasure in life. Is
>that to be discouraged over multiplication tables? Unschooling allows
>people to become who THEY choose to be...who they are TALENTED at being.
>
>I spend a lot of time explaining how unschooling works with my son--my
>oldest. That's because of several complex reasons. First, he is the oldest
>and I've been "figuring him out" for the longest now. Second, his
>particular interests are "conventional" and numerous. He's interested in
>many scholarly things and I can visualize him as a successful (and happy)
>adult in many different vocations. Third, my second child is more difficult
>to explain in terms that would help you understand unschooling. She even
>challenges MY ideas about unschooling on a daily basis! I've only recently
>been able to see an adult life for her that makes sense to me and still
>holds true to my unschooling beliefs. My third child is more like my first,
>though her interests are quite different from my oldest's. (One important
>thing they have in common is a passion for reading, which my second child
>lacks.) I'll have to explain more about that in another letter, though, if
>you're interested.
>
>OK, the second part of your question had to do with "finishing what they
>start". I touched on this with regard to Matthew's choice of American
>School above. We're paying about $1000 for it and I do expect him to finish
>what he started--this commitment he chose to make. However, on a day-to-day
>basis, it's more complicated than that (as per the example I gave above). I
>want him to finish it, but I'd rather he be true to himself.....if the two
>things happen to be in conflict. I hope they won't be, but if/when they
>are, we'll take it one issue at a time. Anyway, I'll try to explain
>something with a more short-term example.....
>
>Again, I would have to start with asking myself, "what are the consequences
>of NOT finishing this particular thing?" In the long term, I believe that
>it is a good character trait to finish what you started....usually. I can
>agree that in general terms, it is a good value to have. It's good to be
>able to stick with something, even if it is not too enjoyable, for a greater
>reward. (The key, often being "reward"--tangible or intangible.) But in
>reality, most of us start WAY more things than we finish.
>
>And I've also done some reading that suggests that starting projects may be
>as important, or more important, to a child (and perhaps to an adult) than
>finishing them....that they are a necessary part of the process of learning.
>I'll use art projects as an example. When my children were about 4-6 years
>old, they went through a process where they worked on an art project to the
>point of destroying it. They would add glue or paint or markers or glitter
>to a project to the point of it disintegrating. Often they would start a
>project and lose interest in it before it was done...or more likely, it was
>hard to determine what "done" was. Art was just always a work in progress.
>The ACT of creating WAS the purpose.
>
>While I think it's probably easier to see this with art than with other
>"subjects", I can see many parallels. Institutional school has told us the
>following lies: 1. Learning is accomplished when you have a
>visible/complete/correct product. 2. Learning is linear and sequential. 3.
>Learning is measurable. 4. Education means learning a specific set of
>information.
>
>Instead, I believe that learning is often invisible, always incomplete,
>takes place with both correct and incorrect "products", is almost never
>linear nor sequential, is only vaguely measurable and does not include any
>particular set of universal information. So....if your question is "should
>I make them finish what they start"? then I would say that learning is never
>finished nor, in my house, is it often formally "started". It's just an
>ongoing process.
>
>On a more concrete level (which is what I'm sure you'd rather I explain!),
>there ARE projects that do have a beginning, middle, and end in our home.
>Specific house-cleaning chores are one thing that comes to mind (but one of
>the only things!). In that case, I do ask that they be completed because
>they affect other people. At the moment, I can't think of other situations
>where I insist on "completion". Matt's American School stuff is a
>possibility....we do have money invested in this particular project....I
>just don't think money is a sufficient enough reason to insist on
>completion.
>
>Does that at all answer your question?
>
>For unschoolers, the bottom line is that IF a thing is important to know--in
>REAL LIFE important and/or interesting for that INDIVIDUAL to know, they can
>and will learn it. If you can think of things you've learned as an adult, I
>think that will make sense to you.
>
>For me, a recent example is the learning that I've done because of recent
>world events. I can't say that I necessarily enjoy learning about Islam and
>Middle East history, but I am now motivated to learn such things as I feel
>they may have an impact on my life and livelihood.
>
>One last thing....as a mother, I have those natural desires for my children
>to be successful. I want them to be free of financial worries and to be
>able to spend time with their children and do enjoyable things with their
>lives. I have a (also natural, I think) fear that unschooling won't provide
>these things. But I try to balance that with the reality of what I *see* in
>them and also, as I said, to acknowledge the lack of control I have over
>these things. Also, I really do feel that unschooling will allow them to
>excel in the things that THEY are good at and enjoy. Every person in
>history who we know to be successful accomplished that in an area in which
>they had a natural talent. THAT is the natural order of things--not the way
>the schools have manipulated education.
>
>In closing--here's a related, funny cartoon I read this morning. (Can't
>find the illustration online--it is from Dave Coverly at
>www.speedbump.com --October 4 cartoon.) One old woman to another as they
>look at a man reading: "That's my boy, Mark...He's 39, but he's already
>reading at a 42-year-old level..." Lower caption reads, "Mrs. Randolf takes
>mother's pride too far."
>
>Have a nice Thanksgiving,
>Leslie
>
>
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