Essence of learning
Pat Cald...
I have another question in my quest to understand unschooling. One of my main reasons for homeschooling in the first place was to foster the love of learning in my children. This was clearly being squashed in ps. Some may or probably will disagree with me here but in my mind child centered learning may not always foster the love of learning which is truly my goal. Agree or Disagree? When I say foster the love of learning, I do not mean force my ideas on what the love of learning should look like. My role as facilitator would be to just say hey does anyone want to ..... go to a museum, take a walk and observe birds, look at the stars, see what I see under the microscope, make some bread etc. They will develop passions and interests which may be completely unrelated to anything I've exposed them to but, the point is, I hope they will enjoy the process. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Groundhoggirl
On Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 01:00 PM, Pat Cald... wrote:
natural part of every child's being. My reason for unschooling is to
preserve that love.
Mimi
> I have another question in my quest to understand unschooling. One ofI disagree. IMHO, wanting to learn and loving learning, I believe, is a
> my main reasons for homeschooling in the first place was to foster the
> love of learning in my children. This was clearly being squashed in
> ps. Some may or probably will disagree with me here but in my mind
> child centered learning may not always foster the love of learning
> which is truly my goal. Agree or Disagree?
natural part of every child's being. My reason for unschooling is to
preserve that love.
Mimi
>
Leslie Moyer
+ in my mind child centered learning may not always foster
+ the love of learning which is truly my goal. Agree or Disagree?
+ When I say foster the love of learning, I do not mean force my
+ ideas on what the love of learning should look like. My role as
+ facilitator would be to just say hey does anyone want to ..... go
+ to a museum, take a walk and observe birds, look at the stars,
+ see what I see under the microscope, make some bread etc. They
+ will develop passions and interests which may be completely
+ unrelated to anything I've exposed them to but, the point is, I
+ hope they will enjoy the process.
Pat, I'm not sure I really understand your question....what you described
above sounds just like "child centered learning" to me. There is nothing
wrong with sharing your interests with your children. I think the key here
would be "what would you do if they were *not* interested in what you saw
under the microscope?" If that's fine with you, then it's still
child-centered. If it's not OK with you and you make them stick with it for
a certain amount of time or until some goal is met, then it would not be
child centered.
Another thing that is at least some factor in there is that a parent
probably "should" (for lack of a better phrase that comes to mind!) *enjoy*
whatever it is they're sharing. Kids can see right through you and if
you're just staging a "learning moment" for *their* benefit then they won't
be fooled. It depends a bit on what their experiences with learning were
before this. (I.e. were they "made" to study certain things or not?) But
by the same token, the above statement still applies....as long as it's OK
with you that they're NOT interested, then feel free to show them the world.
In fact, at least in the beginning stages of unschooling, it's probably an
important factor in them being able to discover their joys and passions.
And when children have a trust that no one is going to "make" them learn
something, then they will very likely be interested in a great deal of what
you are interested in. Or at the very least will be willing to give it a
try.
Is that what you were wondering?
Leslie Moyer
+ the love of learning which is truly my goal. Agree or Disagree?
+ When I say foster the love of learning, I do not mean force my
+ ideas on what the love of learning should look like. My role as
+ facilitator would be to just say hey does anyone want to ..... go
+ to a museum, take a walk and observe birds, look at the stars,
+ see what I see under the microscope, make some bread etc. They
+ will develop passions and interests which may be completely
+ unrelated to anything I've exposed them to but, the point is, I
+ hope they will enjoy the process.
Pat, I'm not sure I really understand your question....what you described
above sounds just like "child centered learning" to me. There is nothing
wrong with sharing your interests with your children. I think the key here
would be "what would you do if they were *not* interested in what you saw
under the microscope?" If that's fine with you, then it's still
child-centered. If it's not OK with you and you make them stick with it for
a certain amount of time or until some goal is met, then it would not be
child centered.
Another thing that is at least some factor in there is that a parent
probably "should" (for lack of a better phrase that comes to mind!) *enjoy*
whatever it is they're sharing. Kids can see right through you and if
you're just staging a "learning moment" for *their* benefit then they won't
be fooled. It depends a bit on what their experiences with learning were
before this. (I.e. were they "made" to study certain things or not?) But
by the same token, the above statement still applies....as long as it's OK
with you that they're NOT interested, then feel free to show them the world.
In fact, at least in the beginning stages of unschooling, it's probably an
important factor in them being able to discover their joys and passions.
And when children have a trust that no one is going to "make" them learn
something, then they will very likely be interested in a great deal of what
you are interested in. Or at the very least will be willing to give it a
try.
Is that what you were wondering?
Leslie Moyer
Kolleen
>Pat wrote:My only thought right now is modeling. If you have passions, they will
>They will develop passions and interests which may be completely unrelated
>to anything I've exposed them to but, the point is, I hope they will enjoy
>the process. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
also. If you enjoy the learning process.. if you are kind to yourself and
your mistakes.. they will know that.
It never ceases to amaze me how much our children can see our deepest
darkest and our deepest lightest insides.
I look forward to hearing other responses on this question. Its a great
one to ponder on.
regards,
kolleen
Leslie Moyer
+ My only thought right now is modeling. If you have passions, they will
+ also.
I agree with this, too. I think as importantly or MORE importantly than
sharing things with them that you think THEY will like is just modeling
passion in your *own* life--whether they are interested or not. From this,
they learn life is full of joy and passion and they will seek it out in
their own lives.
Leslie Moyer
+ also.
I agree with this, too. I think as importantly or MORE importantly than
sharing things with them that you think THEY will like is just modeling
passion in your *own* life--whether they are interested or not. From this,
they learn life is full of joy and passion and they will seek it out in
their own lives.
Leslie Moyer
Pat Cald...
Leslie wrote:
Eventhough I have become very passionate about things over my lifetime, I am not open to new things unless I see a purpose to it. When I was growing up I was paid for my grades. I got really good grades but have never been able to enjoy learning for the pleasure of learning. There always needs to be a purpose in it for me. Maybe it would not have mattered how I was raised because it may just be my personality to be an all or nothing person. I do feel I am missing out on simply being in awe of something or just enjoying the sunsets just because of their beautiful. Actually, it has been so wonderful seeing things through my children's eyes. Things are easy for them to enjoy. To tell you the truth, I feel I am being a little selfish about the unschooling stuff. I am the one whose life has been so enriched because of my childrens simple pleasures. I hope they never decide to go back to ps.
Pat
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>And when children have a trust that no one is going to "make" them learnLeslie, I really like what you wrote, especially about the children being able to try things with out expectations. I think that is really a great point. I want to help them remain open to new experiences.
>something, then they will very likely be interested in a great deal of >what
>you are interested in. Or at the very least will be willing to give it a
>try.
>Is that what you were wondering?
Eventhough I have become very passionate about things over my lifetime, I am not open to new things unless I see a purpose to it. When I was growing up I was paid for my grades. I got really good grades but have never been able to enjoy learning for the pleasure of learning. There always needs to be a purpose in it for me. Maybe it would not have mattered how I was raised because it may just be my personality to be an all or nothing person. I do feel I am missing out on simply being in awe of something or just enjoying the sunsets just because of their beautiful. Actually, it has been so wonderful seeing things through my children's eyes. Things are easy for them to enjoy. To tell you the truth, I feel I am being a little selfish about the unschooling stuff. I am the one whose life has been so enriched because of my childrens simple pleasures. I hope they never decide to go back to ps.
Pat
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Pat Cald...
Hi Kolleen,
I hope my kids can see my flaws for what they are. I try to hide my prejudices and other flaws as much as possible. A few times my dd's have taught me a lesson or two. Here is a good example. I had to keep my mouth shut one year when my dd took some canned goods in to school for a food drive. I went in the building with her and she put the cans in the boxes at the front entrance. I said something about "oh you don't want to bring them to your classroom?" I'm embarrassed to say I would have brought them to the classroom so that others could see I had done something good. I'm glad my dd was not doing a good deed for the recognition. My older dd is always telling me I worry about what other people think too much. I thank her for pointing that out and compliment her on her self-confidence.
Pat
I hope my kids can see my flaws for what they are. I try to hide my prejudices and other flaws as much as possible. A few times my dd's have taught me a lesson or two. Here is a good example. I had to keep my mouth shut one year when my dd took some canned goods in to school for a food drive. I went in the building with her and she put the cans in the boxes at the front entrance. I said something about "oh you don't want to bring them to your classroom?" I'm embarrassed to say I would have brought them to the classroom so that others could see I had done something good. I'm glad my dd was not doing a good deed for the recognition. My older dd is always telling me I worry about what other people think too much. I thank her for pointing that out and compliment her on her self-confidence.
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Kolleen
To: Unschooling.com
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Essence of learning
>Pat wrote:
>They will develop passions and interests which may be completely unrelated
>to anything I've exposed them to but, the point is, I hope they will enjoy
>the process. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
My only thought right now is modeling. If you have passions, they will
also. If you enjoy the learning process.. if you are kind to yourself and
your mistakes.. they will know that.
It never ceases to amaze me how much our children can see our deepest
darkest and our deepest lightest insides.
I look forward to hearing other responses on this question. Its a great
one to ponder on.
regards,
kolleen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I think with at least some unschooled kids, that wanting to learn and
>I disagree. IMHO, wanting to learn and loving learning, I believe, is a
>natural part of every child's being. My reason for unschooling is to
>preserve that love.
loving learning can be kind of hard to see. It certainly is with my
son. I think it's there. I just have to look pretty hard to see it at times.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Sarah Carothers
On Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:40:39 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
I think you're catching on to this unschooling thing just fine :-)
Most people have to enter into it with baby steps. I think you're
making great strides toward a goal that will be both fulfilling for
you and your kids. Keep it up and don't give up on 'em!
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Actually, it has been so wonderful seeingDear Pat,
>things through my children's eyes. Things are easy for them
>to enjoy. To tell you the truth, I feel I am being a little
>selfish about the unschooling stuff. I am the one whose life
>has been so enriched because of my childrens simple pleasures.
>I hope they never decide to go back to ps.
>
>Pat
I think you're catching on to this unschooling thing just fine :-)
Most people have to enter into it with baby steps. I think you're
making great strides toward a goal that will be both fulfilling for
you and your kids. Keep it up and don't give up on 'em!
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
Dear Pat,
I'm sitting here applauding you for being able to tell this story
because it says imo that you've grown 'past it'. Also, I can relate
as I have done similar things in the past that I don't do anymore.
I once told someone that my kids keep me honest (meaning they keep me
in line and make me a better person just by their presence). I was
looked at like I was crazy. I can only assume this person has never
learned any lessons from her kids... she's probably just not
listening because there are *lots* of lessons to be had for the
asking.
As the old saying goes, you go girl! :-)
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
I'm sitting here applauding you for being able to tell this story
because it says imo that you've grown 'past it'. Also, I can relate
as I have done similar things in the past that I don't do anymore.
I once told someone that my kids keep me honest (meaning they keep me
in line and make me a better person just by their presence). I was
looked at like I was crazy. I can only assume this person has never
learned any lessons from her kids... she's probably just not
listening because there are *lots* of lessons to be had for the
asking.
As the old saying goes, you go girl! :-)
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
On Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:55:35 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
> Hi Kolleen,
>
>I hope my kids can see my flaws for what they are. I try to hide my
>prejudices and other flaws as much as possible. A few times my dd's
>have taught me a lesson or two. Here is a good example. I had to
>keep my mouth shut one year when my dd took some canned goods in to
>school for a food drive. I went in the building with her and she
>put the cans in the boxes at the front entrance. I said something
>about "oh you don't want to bring them to your classroom?" I'm
>embarrassed to say I would have brought them to the classroom so
>that others could see I had done something good. I'm glad my dd was
>not doing a good deed for the recognition. My older dd is always
>telling me I worry about what other people think too much. I thank
>her for pointing that out and compliment her on her self-confidence.
>
>Pat
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Kolleen
>To: Unschooling.com
>Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 2:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Essence of learning
>
>
>>Pat wrote:
>>They will develop passions and interests which may be completely
>>unrelated
>>to anything I've exposed them to but, the point is, I hope they
>>will enjoy
>>the process. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
>
>My only thought right now is modeling. If you have passions, they
>will
>also. If you enjoy the learning process.. if you are kind to
>yourself and
>your mistakes.. they will know that.
>
>It never ceases to amaze me how much our children can see our
>deepest
>darkest and our deepest lightest insides.
>
>I look forward to hearing other responses on this question. Its a
>great
>one to ponder on.
>
>regards,
>kolleen
>
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>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pat Cald...
Hi Sarah,
Thanks for the encouraging words. I so agree with you about kids keeping us honest. They don't miss a thing, and they are brutally honest. The other day my 10 yo dd asked if I had a scar on my lip. I nonchalantly said "no that is a wrinkle" (while deep inside I wanted to say "Oh my are my wrinkles getting that bad, I wish I wasn't looking so old" but I didn't show any of my insecurities. Kids are very observant!
Pat
Thanks for the encouraging words. I so agree with you about kids keeping us honest. They don't miss a thing, and they are brutally honest. The other day my 10 yo dd asked if I had a scar on my lip. I nonchalantly said "no that is a wrinkle" (while deep inside I wanted to say "Oh my are my wrinkles getting that bad, I wish I wasn't looking so old" but I didn't show any of my insecurities. Kids are very observant!
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Carothers
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Essence of learning
Dear Pat,
I'm sitting here applauding you for being able to tell this story
because it says imo that you've grown 'past it'. Also, I can relate
as I have done similar things in the past that I don't do anymore.
I once told someone that my kids keep me honest (meaning they keep me
in line and make me a better person just by their presence). I was
looked at like I was crazy. I can only assume this person has never
learned any lessons from her kids... she's probably just not
listening because there are *lots* of lessons to be had for the
asking.
As the old saying goes, you go girl! :-)
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
On Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:55:35 -0500, Pat Cald... wrote:
> Hi Kolleen,
>
>I hope my kids can see my flaws for what they are. I try to hide my
>prejudices and other flaws as much as possible. A few times my dd's
>have taught me a lesson or two. Here is a good example. I had to
>keep my mouth shut one year when my dd took some canned goods in to
>school for a food drive. I went in the building with her and she
>put the cans in the boxes at the front entrance. I said something
>about "oh you don't want to bring them to your classroom?" I'm
>embarrassed to say I would have brought them to the classroom so
>that others could see I had done something good. I'm glad my dd was
>not doing a good deed for the recognition. My older dd is always
>telling me I worry about what other people think too much. I thank
>her for pointing that out and compliment her on her self-confidence.
>
>Pat
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Kolleen
>To: Unschooling.com
>Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 2:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Essence of learning
>
>
>>Pat wrote:
>>They will develop passions and interests which may be completely
>>unrelated
>>to anything I've exposed them to but, the point is, I hope they
>>will enjoy
>>the process. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
>
>My only thought right now is modeling. If you have passions, they
>will
>also. If you enjoy the learning process.. if you are kind to
>yourself and
>your mistakes.. they will know that.
>
>It never ceases to amaze me how much our children can see our
>deepest
>darkest and our deepest lightest insides.
>
>I look forward to hearing other responses on this question. Its a
>great
>one to ponder on.
>
>regards,
>kolleen
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
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>
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>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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>http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
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>
>
>
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>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@y...>
wrote:
the love of learning in my children. This was clearly being squashed
in ps. Some may or probably will disagree with me here but in my
mind child centered learning may not always foster the love of
learning which is truly my goal. Agree or Disagree?
I agree and I disagree.
There are kids out there who need extra help along those lines. They
are IMHO by far not the norm. But there are enough of them that no
forum (including this one) should act like they don't exist.
For the vast majority of kids, being left to their own interests is
fine. They will learn what they need, when they need it.
There are a few cases where because of underlying problems a child
does not thrive if left to figure things out on his own. In those
cases, I believe it is the responsibility of the parent to step in.
The big trick is knowing if what you think is a problem child reallly
is. If you think your child has problems that you need to deal with,
step back and take a long hard look and make absolutely certain that
the problem is with the child and not with your preconceived notions
of what "normal" is supposed to be.
One way to tell the difference is this: Is your child happy most of
the time? Then don't worry much. But if your child is unhappy and
frustrated most of the time, maybe (MAYBE) you need to do something.
BUT - - and this is very important - - if you are comin gout of more
than one year of ps, give the child a LOT of time (at least a full
year) to unlearn the bad stuff from school before making the decision
to step in. I waited 2 1/2 years with Wyndham, just watching him and
trying to let him be himself by giving him the tools and materials he
wanted to fool around with. It was becoming more and more clear in
that time that he did NEED our help with many things. His happiness
was declining the whole time.
But the flipside of that coin is that my girls have had even longer
to deschool - this is our 7th year - and until this year I was
waiting for signs in them one way or the other. They were always
learning just enough to keep me from believing they needed help, even
when dh and grandma were naysaying. I see things in them this year
that just took time to develope. And I know that had I tried with
them what works with Wyndham it would have been a disaster.
The hardest part about this is knowing the difference. If I had not
been through this both ways, I would probably be in the let them ALL
unschool - it works for everyone camp. As it is, I have strong
beliefs that unschooling is very good and is the best for the
majority but that there is no reason to expect it to be the perfect
thing for EVERY child.
Bridget
wrote:
> I have another question in my quest to understand unschooling. Oneof my main reasons for homeschooling in the first place was to foster
the love of learning in my children. This was clearly being squashed
in ps. Some may or probably will disagree with me here but in my
mind child centered learning may not always foster the love of
learning which is truly my goal. Agree or Disagree?
I agree and I disagree.
There are kids out there who need extra help along those lines. They
are IMHO by far not the norm. But there are enough of them that no
forum (including this one) should act like they don't exist.
For the vast majority of kids, being left to their own interests is
fine. They will learn what they need, when they need it.
There are a few cases where because of underlying problems a child
does not thrive if left to figure things out on his own. In those
cases, I believe it is the responsibility of the parent to step in.
The big trick is knowing if what you think is a problem child reallly
is. If you think your child has problems that you need to deal with,
step back and take a long hard look and make absolutely certain that
the problem is with the child and not with your preconceived notions
of what "normal" is supposed to be.
One way to tell the difference is this: Is your child happy most of
the time? Then don't worry much. But if your child is unhappy and
frustrated most of the time, maybe (MAYBE) you need to do something.
BUT - - and this is very important - - if you are comin gout of more
than one year of ps, give the child a LOT of time (at least a full
year) to unlearn the bad stuff from school before making the decision
to step in. I waited 2 1/2 years with Wyndham, just watching him and
trying to let him be himself by giving him the tools and materials he
wanted to fool around with. It was becoming more and more clear in
that time that he did NEED our help with many things. His happiness
was declining the whole time.
But the flipside of that coin is that my girls have had even longer
to deschool - this is our 7th year - and until this year I was
waiting for signs in them one way or the other. They were always
learning just enough to keep me from believing they needed help, even
when dh and grandma were naysaying. I see things in them this year
that just took time to develope. And I know that had I tried with
them what works with Wyndham it would have been a disaster.
The hardest part about this is knowing the difference. If I had not
been through this both ways, I would probably be in the let them ALL
unschool - it works for everyone camp. As it is, I have strong
beliefs that unschooling is very good and is the best for the
majority but that there is no reason to expect it to be the perfect
thing for EVERY child.
Bridget
Leslie Moyer
+ -----Original Message-----
+ From: Pat Cald... [mailto:homeschoolmd@...]
+ Eventhough I have become very passionate about things over my
+ lifetime, I am not open to new things unless I see a purpose to
+ it. When I was growing up I was paid for my grades. I got
+ really good grades but have never been able to enjoy learning for
+ the pleasure of learning. There always needs to be a purpose in
+ it for me.
Pat, I wanted to comment on this thought.... I don't think your experience
(needing a purpose to learn) is undesirable. In fact, I think it is the
essence of unschooling. I think most adults (not all) would say this about
themselves. Perhaps what you were saying (as I read between the lines) is
that you needed an *external* motivation for learning--an extrensic reward?
Approval, maybe? I was the same way in school.
I do hope that my children will find learning has it own intrinsic rewards
BUT I don't make the mistake of thinking that they will be eager to learn
without a "purpose"....it will just be *their* purpose. It may or may not
be obvious to me OR them...but it is there. I do see my
children--unschooled all their lives--doing plenty of things that bring them
extrinsic rewards. But I don't think they associate *learning, per se* with
these rewards. (For example, my son has studied public speaking because it
allows him to speak well in front of his Scout troop and he gains the
admiration of his peers and positive feedback from his Scoutmaster who he
adores. Working a job and getting paid is an extrinsic reward.)
In my opinion, the primary mistake schools make is to act as if learning HAS
no purpose other than the extrensic rewards schools/teachers provide. They
try to *manufacture* purpose where it does not exist. Or, worse, they warp
the purpose so severely as to cause humiliation and make learning painful.
I'm post-migraine here, so not sure if I said what I wanted to, but maybe
someone else can continue with the thought. :-)
Leslie Moyer
+ From: Pat Cald... [mailto:homeschoolmd@...]
+ Eventhough I have become very passionate about things over my
+ lifetime, I am not open to new things unless I see a purpose to
+ it. When I was growing up I was paid for my grades. I got
+ really good grades but have never been able to enjoy learning for
+ the pleasure of learning. There always needs to be a purpose in
+ it for me.
Pat, I wanted to comment on this thought.... I don't think your experience
(needing a purpose to learn) is undesirable. In fact, I think it is the
essence of unschooling. I think most adults (not all) would say this about
themselves. Perhaps what you were saying (as I read between the lines) is
that you needed an *external* motivation for learning--an extrensic reward?
Approval, maybe? I was the same way in school.
I do hope that my children will find learning has it own intrinsic rewards
BUT I don't make the mistake of thinking that they will be eager to learn
without a "purpose"....it will just be *their* purpose. It may or may not
be obvious to me OR them...but it is there. I do see my
children--unschooled all their lives--doing plenty of things that bring them
extrinsic rewards. But I don't think they associate *learning, per se* with
these rewards. (For example, my son has studied public speaking because it
allows him to speak well in front of his Scout troop and he gains the
admiration of his peers and positive feedback from his Scoutmaster who he
adores. Working a job and getting paid is an extrinsic reward.)
In my opinion, the primary mistake schools make is to act as if learning HAS
no purpose other than the extrensic rewards schools/teachers provide. They
try to *manufacture* purpose where it does not exist. Or, worse, they warp
the purpose so severely as to cause humiliation and make learning painful.
I'm post-migraine here, so not sure if I said what I wanted to, but maybe
someone else can continue with the thought. :-)
Leslie Moyer
Pat Cald...
Hi Leslie,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I have a question though. If it is the norm to need a purpose to learn, then why do people go to museums or star gaze? My dh and kids used to go to museums a lot and I could not understand what they could get out of it unless they were studying something that was there. I would look at things and try to get the feeling I get when I have a purpose to learn it, but I couldn't. Now that we have been unschooling for a few months, I am beginning to just look at things and be in awe of them or see the beauty in them. Aren't these experiences learning experiences? I hope they are because we have been doing a lot of this with our new microscope. Maybe these things are not the things any one of us will look into in great depth and maybe that is what you are speaking of when you talk about purpose, more in-depth learning. However, without this process of experiencing many things, how will we know what we really have a passion for?
Pat
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I have a question though. If it is the norm to need a purpose to learn, then why do people go to museums or star gaze? My dh and kids used to go to museums a lot and I could not understand what they could get out of it unless they were studying something that was there. I would look at things and try to get the feeling I get when I have a purpose to learn it, but I couldn't. Now that we have been unschooling for a few months, I am beginning to just look at things and be in awe of them or see the beauty in them. Aren't these experiences learning experiences? I hope they are because we have been doing a lot of this with our new microscope. Maybe these things are not the things any one of us will look into in great depth and maybe that is what you are speaking of when you talk about purpose, more in-depth learning. However, without this process of experiencing many things, how will we know what we really have a passion for?
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Leslie Moyer
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Essence of learning
+ -----Original Message-----
+ From: Pat Cald... [mailto:homeschoolmd@...]
+ Eventhough I have become very passionate about things over my
+ lifetime, I am not open to new things unless I see a purpose to
+ it. When I was growing up I was paid for my grades. I got
+ really good grades but have never been able to enjoy learning for
+ the pleasure of learning. There always needs to be a purpose in
+ it for me.
Pat, I wanted to comment on this thought.... I don't think your experience
(needing a purpose to learn) is undesirable. In fact, I think it is the
essence of unschooling. I think most adults (not all) would say this about
themselves. Perhaps what you were saying (as I read between the lines) is
that you needed an *external* motivation for learning--an extrensic reward?
Approval, maybe? I was the same way in school.
I do hope that my children will find learning has it own intrinsic rewards
BUT I don't make the mistake of thinking that they will be eager to learn
without a "purpose"....it will just be *their* purpose. It may or may not
be obvious to me OR them...but it is there. I do see my
children--unschooled all their lives--doing plenty of things that bring them
extrinsic rewards. But I don't think they associate *learning, per se* with
these rewards. (For example, my son has studied public speaking because it
allows him to speak well in front of his Scout troop and he gains the
admiration of his peers and positive feedback from his Scoutmaster who he
adores. Working a job and getting paid is an extrinsic reward.)
In my opinion, the primary mistake schools make is to act as if learning HAS
no purpose other than the extrensic rewards schools/teachers provide. They
try to *manufacture* purpose where it does not exist. Or, worse, they warp
the purpose so severely as to cause humiliation and make learning painful.
I'm post-migraine here, so not sure if I said what I wanted to, but maybe
someone else can continue with the thought. :-)
Leslie Moyer
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie Moyer
+ -----Original Message-----
+ From: Pat Cald... [mailto:homeschoolmd@...]
+
+ I have a question though.
+ If it is the norm to need a purpose to learn, then why do people
+ go to museums or star gaze?
Well..."pleasure" is a purpose, too. "Beauty", "joy", "inspiration",
"happiness", "understanding"...."making sense of my world"--those are all
purposes, too. They aren't *tangible* ones, perhaps, but they are purposes.
That was what I meant when I said that it might not be "obvious"--"tangible"
would have been a better choice of words.
But not all learning is *enjoyable*.....for example, when I have problems
with my computer, I don't find it inherently pleasurable to search the
Internet looking for a way to solve my problem. In fact, I find it
extremely distasteful. But I have a need--a purpose. So I don't really
think it is a realistic goal that unschooling will make all learning fun. I
think it is realistic to think that one will not try to separate learning
from it's purpose, though. This is what much of institutional school and
school-at-home does.
--Leslie Moyer / Oklahoma
+ From: Pat Cald... [mailto:homeschoolmd@...]
+
+ I have a question though.
+ If it is the norm to need a purpose to learn, then why do people
+ go to museums or star gaze?
Well..."pleasure" is a purpose, too. "Beauty", "joy", "inspiration",
"happiness", "understanding"...."making sense of my world"--those are all
purposes, too. They aren't *tangible* ones, perhaps, but they are purposes.
That was what I meant when I said that it might not be "obvious"--"tangible"
would have been a better choice of words.
But not all learning is *enjoyable*.....for example, when I have problems
with my computer, I don't find it inherently pleasurable to search the
Internet looking for a way to solve my problem. In fact, I find it
extremely distasteful. But I have a need--a purpose. So I don't really
think it is a realistic goal that unschooling will make all learning fun. I
think it is realistic to think that one will not try to separate learning
from it's purpose, though. This is what much of institutional school and
school-at-home does.
--Leslie Moyer / Oklahoma