Kolleen

>dljones0 writes:
>I want to support him but I
>honestly believe that hsg is right for him and I don't want him to go
>through another depressing time in ps.

If you want to support him then you need to stop thinking that you know
that hsg is right for him. If it is, he needs to figure that out for
himeself.

>Maybe I should let him decide
>for himself and maybe he'll decide to hs again.

An unschooling parent would adhere to this, in spite of how hard it would
be to watch a decision that you may know is inherently wrong.

>But I also know that
>if he does, he will feel very bad about himself if he finds returning
>was a mistake.

And then he can leave again. Sometimes one needs a few times to figure
out if their decision is the best one.

>I have considered waiting to see how the rest of this
>year goes and if he is not doing better at home, there is no way he
>could cut it in ps and maybe I should make that decision (although I
>hesitate to).

If he wants to go back. Let him. Also let him know that he has other
decisions. Such as unschooling. Its hard for a parent to step back, but
you need to at this point. Offer him his choices, you may even want to
sit down and write them out with him. Then support his decison and let
him know he can change at any point he wants and you will support that
too.


>I want him happy and to get back his self-esteem. Maybe
>we need to take more of an unschooling approach and let him make his
>own decisions about learning. Eventually he may pick up a book again.
>He's very bright and loves computer programming.

If you are waivering, then hopefully someone on this list can help you
push you over the proverbial edge towards unschooling.

If he loves programming, then make that one of his choices, he can stay
home and program all day if he wishes.

>
>What can I do to make him feel better about himself the rest of this
>year? He feels like he is failing academically at home and not
>learning enough but he can't handle anymore than he is doing now,
>which is very little.

Offer the choices and be prepared to take a leap of trust in him and in
yourself. And come running here when life gets overwhelming and get your
support from other parents that share your experiences.

>
>I need to help him organize his time and structure his days better.

He needs to figure it out for himself. He's been 'damaged' by control in
the ps system and needs to 'repair' before he can put it all together. It
takes time.

>He wanted flexibility, but we saw what happened with that - nothing.

How so? Did you know that it takes about a year to undo the damage done
in ps and other oppressive schooling? Did you allow time for you and for
him to adjust?

>He can't remember the simplest of things and to carry out everyday
>tasks and he hates it when I remind him. I don't like reminding him
>either.

If he hates it and you hate it, then stop it.

>I've basically told him it is up to him to make things
>happen. I will help him organize things, but I can't make him do it
>if he refuses to.

Again, its time to adjust. You sound like a very concerned and loving
parent. When the worrying stops, the best part of life will happen.

>
>It's frustrating for him and for me. Once we deal with these
>issues, I think he'll be much happier.

Again, this takes a leap of trust and TIME to de-school both of
yourselves.
>
>It was recommended by his dr. that he get one-on-one counseling and
>also group counseling but I'm not sure where to go. Also, do the ps
>do anything to accommodate ADD students?

This is an issue I'd best refrain from talking about. I don't like labels
and although I don't agree with neurological altering medications, I know
that some parents don't have a choice because of the way our system is
set up. My heart goes out to all of them. I wish Western science would
lose its ego and begin to heal.
>
>Sorry for all the questions and rambling.

Don't be sorry. You came here as an option, or in desperation in trying
to do the best thing for your child.

Hopefully, some of the responses will help and you both make a choice
that you are comfortable with.

regards,
kolleen

dljones0

We started hsg this past April because my 14yo ds hated school and
was becoming depressed. I thought it was due to not being challenged,
as he was always a very good student - always saw the big picture. It
was the small things he sometimes missed. After a few months of
schooling to some degree at home, I decided we had to have him tested
for ADD, as I had wondered for quite some time if there could be
something else going on with him other than being underchallenged.

He was just diagnosed with ADD - the inattentive type. He is easily
distracted and can't stay focused. He once loved to read but won't
pick up a book anymore.

He has been given Adderall and since starting about 3 days ago, I've
seen a difference. He hasn't said "Huh?" and made me repeat myself at
all, as I'm accustomed to doing all these years. I have even tested
him by talking to him from another room and still he hears me the
first time. I'm very happy about that. We found this past week while
on vacation that he is staying up until 3 a.m. and I wonder if the
2nd pill given to him later in the day could be contributing, so we
gave him only one pill yesterday. The test will come when we start in
again on academics next week, but I have a feeling that we can't
expect a great change. I don't know. Good and bad days still I'm
sure.

My concerns now are in the way that we hs. We wants to return to ps
next year due to missing friends, even though he participates in
sports. He says it's not the same, but he also says that he would be
getting F's if he were in ps now. I want to support him but I
honestly believe that hsg is right for him and I don't want him to go
through another depressing time in ps. Maybe I should let him decide
for himself and maybe he'll decide to hs again. But I also know that
if he does, he will feel very bad about himself if he finds returning
was a mistake. I have considered waiting to see how the rest of this
year goes and if he is not doing better at home, there is no way he
could cut it in ps and maybe I should make that decision (although I
hesitate to). I want him happy and to get back his self-esteem. Maybe
we need to take more of an unschooling approach and let him make his
own decisions about learning. Eventually he may pick up a book again.
He's very bright and loves computer programming.

What can I do to make him feel better about himself the rest of this
year? He feels like he is failing academically at home and not
learning enough but he can't handle anymore than he is doing now,
which is very little.

I need to help him organize his time and structure his days better.
He wanted flexibility, but we saw what happened with that - nothing.
He can't remember the simplest of things and to carry out everyday
tasks and he hates it when I remind him. I don't like reminding him
either. I've basically told him it is up to him to make things
happen. I will help him organize things, but I can't make him do it
if he refuses to.

It's frustrating for him and for me. Once we deal with these
issues, I think he'll be much happier.

It was recommended by his dr. that he get one-on-one counseling and
also group counseling but I'm not sure where to go. Also, do the ps
do anything to accommodate ADD students?

Sorry for all the questions and rambling.

Sarah Carothers

imo I'd *immediately* rush out and buy Real Lives: Eleven Teenagers
Who Don't Go to School by Grace Lewellyn and I'd either read it to
him or insist he read it. Period. I believe that all the other
things you mentioned will fall into place after he gets a better
grasp of what unschooling actually is and yes, he may need your
assistance in some ways, but he should also strive to be control of
his own time, schedules (if he likes schedules) and his own
education. If returning to p.s. next year is still paramount, I think
you have to let him try it.... he *is* a teen, ya know and teens can
be so rebellious when a parent tries to control their lives.

No comments about the medications because I'm clueless except to say
that I *do* know dosages have to be adjusted for most any of them and
that might be something you could look into.

Good luck,
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...


On Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:27:57 -0000, dljones0 wrote:
>
>What can I do to make him feel better about himself the rest of
>this
>year? He feels like he is failing academically at home and not
>learning enough but he can't handle anymore than he is doing now,
>which is very little.
>
>I need to help him organize his time and structure his days
>better.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "dljones0" <dljones0@y...> wrote:
> We started hsg this past April because my 14yo ds hated school and
> was becoming depressed.

I snipped the rest of your post but am answering all of it.

It sounds like you are giving this issue lots of thought and that's
good. Here are my suggestions.

1. Look for a local support group with kids and parents that you
BOTH like. It took several tried for us but we finally succeeded
here and many of them are on this list too. {HI GUYS ;-)}

2. Don't be afraid to just let things go for a while. Tell your son
it's okay to step back and look at the whole picture and take a
little time to figure out what HE wants.

3. Public Schools by and large handle ADD by medicating them into
conformity. They are not equipped to treat students as individuals.

4. This is not a popular suggestion here but I'm throwing out
anyway: If you find he is stuck in a loop of TV watching and video
game playing, see what happens if you limit it. My son has lots of
problems but his flat out obsession with electronic stimuli is the
biggest one. Video games, Nintendo 64 particularly, seem to fry his
brain. TV spirals into constant watching (even stuff he admits he
hates to watch) unless we help him keep it in control. Funny thing
is, now that we have recognized the problem and addressed it as a
problem, he is fine with the limitations. HE, himself, realizes he
needs our help to keep it in control.


5. Help you son find and explore his interests - - i.e. If he likes
trains, let him explore that exclusively if it makes him happy.

6. Tell him for me - - His job right now is to be a 14 year old.
Most of that academic stuff he is worried about is meaningless. The
things I need, I've learned. The things I "learned" in school that I
didn't need are gone. He has his whole life ahead of him to learn
things. But right now, he needs to learn to be happy!

Bridget

Mimi Moorehead

In a message dated 12/26/2001 8:29:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dljones0@... writes:


It's frustrating for him and for me. Once we deal with these
issues, I think he'll be much happier.

It was recommended by his dr. that he get one-on-one counseling and
also group counseling but I'm not sure where to go. Also, do the ps
do anything to accommodate ADD students?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I would like to respond to your last question.

First, I just want to say that I believe that unschooling is, by far,
the best way to let your children grow. I am the mother of 7-year-old
unschooling twin boys. I am also a former public high school geography
teacher. I have seen and experienced first-hand, the damage that years
of schooling does to children, including myself.

Public schools "say" they accommodate ADD children, but let me tell you
it is impossible for them to do so. I don't think it's possible for
them to accommodate *anyone* when teachers such as I are assigned a
student load of between 150 - 190 students! Even an elementary school
teacher with a ratio of 1:15 can not accommodate all his/her students,
ADD or no ADD.

At my high school I was what was called an Inclusion Teacher. This
means that 2 or 3 of the 6 geography classes I taught were Inclusion
classes. Inclusion classes are those with between 5-15 special
education students (these include ADD students) learning side by side
with the so-called "regular" students. There was usually a total of
30-35+ students in the class. Inclusion classes also have an extra
teacher (special-ed certified) present in the classroom.

I was very outspoken about my ideas on inclusion. I was the only
teacher in the whole school who was for it. I found it very offensive to
see special ed kids separated from the regular-ed kids. Inclusion
receives a lot of resistance from the teachers because it makes them
work so much harder. Unfortunately, this work I am talking about
includes lots and lots of documentation that has to be made to prove
that you have made the modifications for the special ed students.

These are some of the modifications I used to accommodate my special-ed
students:

1. Allowed them to have more time to complete their homework or
classwork, if they needed it (this meant I had to make a note to myself
to remember to ask for this work at a future date - remember, I've got
150+ students, I can't keep this in my head!)

2. Shorter and easier assignments (This must be noted in my grade-book)

3. Use an easier-to-read atlas. (This is noted in their IEP
(Individual Education Plan))

4. Allow them to have their own book to take home if the regular-ed
kids must use the class-room set.

5. Easier and shorter versions of my quizzes/tests, etc. (this
means I have to type up 2 versions of everything. I was also an ESL
teacher, teaching 5 different levels of ESL(English as a Second
Language) students, so I actually had 6 different versions of all my
quizzes, tests, Classroom/Homework assignments so I could accommodate
every one, supposedly!)

6. Special ed kids usually get preferential seating, usually at the
front of the classroom.

7. More contact with the parents. I made it a point to call 3
parents every day of the week. On weekdays, I did this from home in the
evening, after school. I would go down my long list of students
(special ed students were always at the top, so they got more calls) and
telephone the parents of students that needed extra attention. Both
negative and positive calls were made.

8. All of my students were given my home telephone number and
email address, in case they ever had an questions or concerns and they
wanted to communicate with me in the evenings or on weekends. I made an
extra effort with my special ed kids and their parents to assure them
that I was always available. I would also work in my classroom until
5PM every afternoon. My door would be open to anyone who needed any
extra help in any subject, not just geography. I also made myself
available during my lunch time since I usually ate in my classroom. I
would allow them to eat with me.


I loved and cared for my students very much and, in a way, I miss being
a teacher. But, let me tell you, I worked very, very hard and tried my
best to accommodate every one, especially my special-ed students, and I
know, with all certainty, that in NO WAY did I come close to
accommodating ANY of my students the way that I know a loving, caring
parent can!!!

Sorry this is so long but I want to say one more thing. If your son
decides to return to public school and he has been labeled as ADD, he
may be classified as a Special Ed student. From my experience with many
other teachers (but, not all) here in Houston, Texas, the term "Special
Ed." has a negative connotation. It is unfortunate that with many (but
not all) teachers, when they see that star next to a student's name
signifying him/her as special-ed, their reaction is immediately
negative. Thoughts of disruptive behiavior and extra work for the
teacher immediately come to mind.

Like in any other profession, there are some very caring and good
teachers and then there are some bad teachers. Even though those who
try their very best to give everything they can to as many of their
students as possible, they can not give to those children what their
parents can give them for those 8+ hours of every day. This is how I
feel about things and these have been some of my experiences.

Mimi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

debbie jones

Thank you for voicing your opinion first-hand. I have a neighbor who is a teacher and she expresses some of the same complaints, so I know it must be true. It really is a shame that some people start out wanting to give so much to teaching and leave frustrated because the system doesn't allow it. I have enjoyed some very nice friendships over the years with some of my childrens' teachers. I even considered going into teaching myself. I would have had a lot of the same frustrations.
Debbie
Mimi Moorehead <groundhoggirl@...> wrote: In a message dated 12/26/2001 8:29:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dljones0@... writes:


It's frustrating for him and for me. Once we deal with these
issues, I think he'll be much happier.

It was recommended by his dr. that he get one-on-one counseling and
also group counseling but I'm not sure where to go. Also, do the ps
do anything to accommodate ADD students?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I would like to respond to your last question.

First, I just want to say that I believe that unschooling is, by far,
the best way to let your children grow. I am the mother of 7-year-old
unschooling twin boys. I am also a former public high school geography
teacher. I have seen and experienced first-hand, the damage that years
of schooling does to children, including myself.

Public schools "say" they accommodate ADD children, but let me tell you
it is impossible for them to do so. I don't think it's possible for
them to accommodate *anyone* when teachers such as I are assigned a
student load of between 150 - 190 students! Even an elementary school
teacher with a ratio of 1:15 can not accommodate all his/her students,
ADD or no ADD.

At my high school I was what was called an Inclusion Teacher. This
means that 2 or 3 of the 6 geography classes I taught were Inclusion
classes. Inclusion classes are those with between 5-15 special
education students (these include ADD students) learning side by side
with the so-called "regular" students. There was usually a total of
30-35+ students in the class. Inclusion classes also have an extra
teacher (special-ed certified) present in the classroom.

I was very outspoken about my ideas on inclusion. I was the only
teacher in the whole school who was for it. I found it very offensive to
see special ed kids separated from the regular-ed kids. Inclusion
receives a lot of resistance from the teachers because it makes them
work so much harder. Unfortunately, this work I am talking about
includes lots and lots of documentation that has to be made to prove
that you have made the modifications for the special ed students.

These are some of the modifications I used to accommodate my special-ed
students:

1. Allowed them to have more time to complete their homework or
classwork, if they needed it (this meant I had to make a note to myself
to remember to ask for this work at a future date - remember, I've got
150+ students, I can't keep this in my head!)

2. Shorter and easier assignments (This must be noted in my grade-book)

3. Use an easier-to-read atlas. (This is noted in their IEP
(Individual Education Plan))

4. Allow them to have their own book to take home if the regular-ed
kids must use the class-room set.

5. Easier and shorter versions of my quizzes/tests, etc. (this
means I have to type up 2 versions of everything. I was also an ESL
teacher, teaching 5 different levels of ESL(English as a Second
Language) students, so I actually had 6 different versions of all my
quizzes, tests, Classroom/Homework assignments so I could accommodate
every one, supposedly!)

6. Special ed kids usually get preferential seating, usually at the
front of the classroom.

7. More contact with the parents. I made it a point to call 3
parents every day of the week. On weekdays, I did this from home in the
evening, after school. I would go down my long list of students
(special ed students were always at the top, so they got more calls) and
telephone the parents of students that needed extra attention. Both
negative and positive calls were made.

8. All of my students were given my home telephone number and
email address, in case they ever had an questions or concerns and they
wanted to communicate with me in the evenings or on weekends. I made an
extra effort with my special ed kids and their parents to assure them
that I was always available. I would also work in my classroom until
5PM every afternoon. My door would be open to anyone who needed any
extra help in any subject, not just geography. I also made myself
available during my lunch time since I usually ate in my classroom. I
would allow them to eat with me.


I loved and cared for my students very much and, in a way, I miss being
a teacher. But, let me tell you, I worked very, very hard and tried my
best to accommodate every one, especially my special-ed students, and I
know, with all certainty, that in NO WAY did I come close to
accommodating ANY of my students the way that I know a loving, caring
parent can!!!

Sorry this is so long but I want to say one more thing. If your son
decides to return to public school and he has been labeled as ADD, he
may be classified as a Special Ed student. From my experience with many
other teachers (but, not all) here in Houston, Texas, the term "Special
Ed." has a negative connotation. It is unfortunate that with many (but
not all) teachers, when they see that star next to a student's name
signifying him/her as special-ed, their reaction is immediately
negative. Thoughts of disruptive behiavior and extra work for the
teacher immediately come to mind.

Like in any other profession, there are some very caring and good
teachers and then there are some bad teachers. Even though those who
try their very best to give everything they can to as many of their
students as possible, they can not give to those children what their
parents can give them for those 8+ hours of every day. This is how I
feel about things and these have been some of my experiences.

Mimi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mimi Moorehead

>
>
>> Maybe I should let him decide
>> for himself and maybe he'll decide to hs again.
>
> An unschooling parent would adhere to this, in spite of how hard it
> would
> be to watch a decision that you may know is inherently wrong.
>
>> But I also know that
>> if he does, he will feel very bad about himself if he finds returning
>> was a mistake.
>
> And then he can leave again. Sometimes one needs a few times to figure
> out if their decision is the best one.
>
>> I have considered waiting to see how the rest of this
>> year goes and if he is not doing better at home, there is no way he
>> could cut it in ps and maybe I should make that decision (although I
>> hesitate to).
> ============
> If he wants to go back. Let him. Also let him know that he has other
> decisions. Such as unschooling. Its hard for a parent to step back, but
> you need to at this point. Offer him his choices, you may even want to
> sit down and write them out with him. Then support his decison and let
> him know he can change at any point he wants and you will support that
> too.
> ==============
I totally agree with your advice here, Kolleen. He should be allowed to
make the decision of whether to go back or not. I would make it
absolutely clear, however, that he can leave and come back home to
unschooling at any time. I think your suggestion of writing down the
choices, is a very good one.
> =============
>> I want him happy and to get back his self-esteem. Maybe
>> we need to take more of an unschooling approach and let him make his
>> own decisions about learning. Eventually he may pick up a book again.
>> He's very bright and loves computer programming.
> =============
> If you are waivering, then hopefully someone on this list can help you
> push you over the proverbial edge towards unschooling.
>
> If he loves programming, then make that one of his choices, he can stay
> home and program all day if he wishes.
> ================
I think it's wonderful he's into computer programming. If that's all he
does all day long, that is very productive. If you think about it, it's
much more active than reading a book. I would be thrilled if my boys
took to programming in the future. I believe there is a very high
demand for computer programmers in the market place also. Perhaps he
could get some kind of a job in that field - eventually?

Mimi
===================
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> Thank you for voicing your opinion first-hand. I have a neighbor who is
> a teacher and she expresses some of the same complaints, so I know it
> must be true. It really is a shame that some people start out wanting to
> give so much to teaching and leave frustrated because the system doesn't
> allow it. I have enjoyed some very nice friendships over the years with
> some of my childrens' teachers. I even considered going into teaching
> myself. I would have had a lot of the same frustrations.

I had a very few excellent teachers in my schooling life. Most of them
quit to do something else. They couldn't handle the system.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Tia Leschke

> Also, do the ps
>do anything to accommodate ADD students?
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I would like to respond to your last question.

Great post, Mimi. I've saved it in case my son starts talking about school
again. He still hadn't made up his mind by the end of summer this
year. We went to visit a cousin I hadn't seen since 1985. At that time, I
was unschooling my older boy, and my cousin was quite negative about
it. This time was different. She's been a special ed teacher for many
years now. Through dinner she was going on about all the kids that she
hasn't been able to help because of the system and because of various
power-tripping principals, etc. At the end of dinner, she leaned over to
my son and said, "I can't remember what your mother told me. Are you going
to school this year?" He thought for a second and then mumbled, "no". I
thanked her later. I'd let him go if he really wanted to, but I think it
would be a disaster. And now the teachers are on strike, which in this
province means they have to teach but they don't have to do any of the
volunteer things they usually do, like coaching teams, putting on concerts
and plays, supervising clubs, etc. All the stuff that makes school
bearable for a lot of kids. That pretty well takes away all the reasons he
wanted to go.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island