Julie Stauffer

<<maybe we need to find some fun poems>>

Limericks, perhaps?

One of my favorite childhood memories is writing letters back and forth with
my grandmother. We did everything in limerick form. It was so much fun.

Julie

Julie Stauffer

<<predisposed to inactivity>>
<<intent on getting their own way>>
<<help the child learn to be a better person>>

First off, why does being predisposed to inactivity and wanting your own way
make you a less than good person?

Second, how is describing your child that way to strangers on an email list
any different than describing your husband that way to people behind his
back?

I think we are back to the need for accepting people as they are and helping
them change IF THEY CHOOSE to do so, not because we think they need to.

Julie

Julie Stauffer

<<before you let them out in a world where they could be hurt by a lack of
understanding>>

Do you also suggest that we force our children into the labor market because
"out in the world", they may need a job? Or perhaps I should just call my
bi-racial child "my little nigger" so she will not be hurt by a lack of
understanding "out in the world"? Good grief.

Do you have any idea how patronizing and condescending you sound? Oh, I
forgot, I'm just to sensitive to word connotations.

Julie

Julie Stauffer

<<fundamental unschooler>>

I am not the original poster. I think of myself as a fundamental
unschooler. Many Christians see me as Pagan. I follow the Bible only so
far as the teachings directly from Jesus. Jesus said that children are who
we should strive to be like, he honored them on several occasions. I feel
it is my duty and privilege to honor my children, to remember that they are
close to God.

Julie

Joseph Fuerst

Ya know, Tia, after thinking this through...and seeing your response here,
I'm not sure what I'll *do*. I have made the mistake many times of letting
*my* desire for her to read get in the way....Anything she sees as me trying
to get her to read will have the opposite effect!
I am getting better at simply letting her be. And have found that the
less I get involved (with prodding, what I think is encouraging, etc.) the
more she explores this on her own. I did finally write out a song that she
and her 6yo sister know. I didn't *say* anything about it, just did it -
wrote it in large letters and taped it to the fridge. I noticed her looking
at it several times while singing the song.
My late reader is the oldest....so she'll have plenty of opportunities
to look over my shoulder as her younger siblings get simpler things read to
them.
My perspective is improved now with a 6 yo around.....my #2dd is really
interested in spelling an dreading and writing, but she has barely a clue
about numbers! I can see more that older dd's talent area for now is math,
numbers, problem solving, and younger loves words and spelling.
I'm learning that the children are fine...and have their own ways - I'm
also learning some about how to provide them with opportunitites without the
pressure of my own ideas about what they need to learn. What can I say? My
deschooling is a much more complicated process than the childrens!!
Thanks for your input...
Susan
>Hmmm....just had an idea.......maybe we need to find some fun poems, where
>the length is not intimidating and the flow of the language is usually
>*fun*.

Might work for her. It didn't work with Lars, but that's partly because we
tried it when I was doing my non-unschooling insistence on reading
practise.

Tia Leschke

At 09:14 AM 04/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Ya know, Tia, after thinking this through...and seeing your response here,
>I'm not sure what I'll *do*. I have made the mistake many times of letting
>*my* desire for her to read get in the way....Anything she sees as me trying
>to get her to read will have the opposite effect!

They sure pick up on it, don't they?

> I am getting better at simply letting her be. And have found that the
>less I get involved (with prodding, what I think is encouraging, etc.) the
>more she explores this on her own.

When I went through my panic stage a couple of years ago, I didn't know
about this list. I think my reading push was particularly bad for Lars
because of all the phone counselling I had done over the years. He had
heard me tell other people time and again that their kids would read when
they were ready, that forced reading causes problems, that we can trust our
kids to learn what they need to know. I really believed it, and yet, I
still panicked. I'm sure Lars must have felt really ripped off about
it. (Yes, I have apologized.) It was the dyslexia idea that got to
me. What if he had a problem that was preventing his learning to read, and
I never did anything to help him with it? I just carried it too far,
insisting rather than offering help.

>I did finally write out a song that she
>and her 6yo sister know. I didn't *say* anything about it, just did it -
>wrote it in large letters and taped it to the fridge. I noticed her looking
>at it several times while singing the song.

One thing I didn't do that might have been a good idea is to start writing
him notes. I waited until he could read reasonably first. Looking back, I
could have made use of it earlier without his feeling bad about not being
able to read them perfectly.

> My late reader is the oldest....so she'll have plenty of opportunities
>to look over my shoulder as her younger siblings get simpler things read to
>them.
> My perspective is improved now with a 6 yo around.....my #2dd is really
>interested in spelling an dreading and writing, but she has barely a clue
>about numbers! I can see more that older dd's talent area for now is math,
>numbers, problem solving, and younger loves words and spelling.

It's good you can see this now. I got so focused for a while on what Lars
couldn't do, that I forgot to pay enough attention to what he could
do. Since I've been doing that, his self-esteem has jumped. It's also
good that you are aware of what each of your kids is good at. I assume you
point it out to them as well (or to other people when the kids are
listening.) I was concerned that my granddaughter (just turning 7) would
read before Lars. Since they are so close in age, and Skye is here a lot,
they tend to act more like siblings than uncle and niece. He's still ahead
of her in reading, but she's really keen to be able to do it. And she does
tend to be competitive with him. For a while she seemed ready to copy
him in everything else, like sports and stuff. Now she's moving into the
things she really loves, like drama and dance and music. It's obvious how
different they are, and that they're both fine.

> I'm learning that the children are fine...and have their own ways - I'm
>also learning some about how to provide them with opportunitites without the
>pressure of my own ideas about what they need to learn. What can I say? My
>deschooling is a much more complicated process than the childrens!!

Hey! I started out as a commited unschooler, and I still had problems
carrying it through. I just wish I had had this list then. In just a few
months, I've been challenged to change a lot of my parenting and
homeschooling practises.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

Bridget

So you think it is good to protect your child from all that could
hurt her feelings, not ever let her learn how to cope with hardship
and unfairness and rudeness and hurtful people - - then suddenly when
she is old enough to leave home she will have the skills she needs to
function in the world? So how does you question about the workforce
have anything to do with my family using words based in reality and
not sugar coating everything to sound good?

My kids can understand it when I tell them they are being lazy or
willful because THEY understand that it does not mean they are
inherrantly bad. They also understand that when *I* am being lazy or
willful they should let me know it. THEY understand that even people
who are good are not perfect. The only people who can't improve
themselves are those who THINK they are perfect.

Bridget


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@g...> wrote:
>
> Do you also suggest that we force our children into the labor
market because
> "out in the world", they may need a job? Or perhaps I should just
call my
> bi-racial child "my little nigger" so she will not be hurt by a
lack of
> understanding "out in the world"? Good grief.
>
> Do you have any idea how patronizing and condescending you sound?
Oh, I
> forgot, I'm just to sensitive to word connotations.
>
> Julie

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@g...> wrote:

>
> Do you have any idea how patronizing and condescending you sound?
Oh, I
> forgot, I'm just to sensitive to word connotations.
>
> Julie

Gee . . . after having been described as abrasive, rude and a bitch
and various other names because I have atendency to not sugar coat my
words, I guess you calling me patronizing and condescending is new if
nothing else. But do you really want to stoop to personal comments
like that?

Bridget

Tia Leschke

At 10:58 PM 04/12/01 +0000, you wrote:
>So you think it is good to protect your child from all that could
>hurt her feelings, not ever let her learn how to cope with hardship
>and unfairness and rudeness and hurtful people - - then suddenly when
>she is old enough to leave home she will have the skills she needs to
>function in the world?

Isn't that the same argument we get about why we should send our kids to
school? So they can get used to all that terrible bullying behavior that's
out there? If the child is bi-racial, isn't it likely that she'll run into
the word nigger at some point, without her mother having to call her that?

>So how does you question about the workforce
>have anything to do with my family using words based in reality and
>not sugar coating everything to sound good?

I think the point was that we don't have to do things to our kids *now*
just because they might need to be able to do something later. And I find
it hard to accept that nigger is a word based in reality. Yes, the child
will hear that word, generally used in a negative way. That's
reality. But is calling her something else at home sugar-coating her
bi-racial reality?


>My kids can understand it when I tell them they are being lazy or
>willful because THEY understand that it does not mean they are
>inherrantly bad. They also understand that when *I* am being lazy or
>willful they should let me know it. THEY understand that even people
>who are good are not perfect. The only people who can't improve
>themselves are those who THINK they are perfect.

I still think we're far better off trying to change ourselves than trying
to change other people, even our kids or parents. People respond to the
changes we make in ourselves, one way or another. People resist attempts
to make them a better person. And then there's the differing definitions
of what a better person actually is.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

groundhoggirl

Hi Bridget,

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here. In my opinion, as an
unschooler, I don't think it's possible to protect my boys from every
single hurtful person they come across. Unfortunately, unfairness and
rudeness is something we can not protect them from all of the time. But
we can try. There's nothing wrong with TRYING for perfection. Even
though we try, they will still be exposed to unpleasant situations.

I don't think there's a need for us as parents to describe them in
negative terms (in their presence, or not in their presence) just so
they can be prepared to enter the "real" world. I happen to think my
boys are already in the real world and they are exposed to many good
things, a well as bad. I also know that should my boys encounter a
situation in the future (as an adult) that they have not yet
experienced, they will be able to handle it.

I have never called my boys "lazy" or "willful" and I hope I never do.
I believe that would be very hurtful and it would affect them in a very
negative way. It would make them feel less about themselves and demean
them and that would be contrary to the philosophy of unschooling.

Anyone who knows me will agree that I am VERY far from perfect, but that
doesn't mean I shouldn't keep trying. I am definitely guilty for
modeling rude and poor behaviour to my kids. And, my husband uses some
pretty foul language at times. Of course, my boys have learned some of
these things, and I don't like it much, but this is just the reality of
our particular family. They have learned plenty from our mistakes and
they are and will be prepared for the real world.

I'm sure there are plenty of people on this list who have a much more
relaxed family than we do, but even they can not protect their children
from everything. So, there is no need for us to consciously label our
children for their own good. Anyway, as unschoolers, aren't we supposed
to respect our childrens' choices and if they want to do nothing then
allow them to do nothing. That is their choice. They should not be
called "lazy". This is my opinion.

Mimi


On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 04:58 PM, Bridget wrote:

> So you think it is good to protect your child from all that could
> hurt her feelings, not ever let her learn how to cope with hardship
> and unfairness and rudeness and hurtful people - - then suddenly when
> she is old enough to leave home she will have the skills she needs to
> function in the world? So how does you question about the workforce
> have anything to do with my family using words based in reality and
> not sugar coating everything to sound good?
>
> My kids can understand it when I tell them they are being lazy or
> willful because THEY understand that it does not mean they are
> inherrantly bad. They also understand that when *I* am being lazy or
> willful they should let me know it. THEY understand that even people
> who are good are not perfect. The only people who can't improve
> themselves are those who THINK they are perfect.
>
> Bridget
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@g...> wrote:
>>
>> Do you also suggest that we force our children into the labor
> market because
>> "out in the world", they may need a job? Or perhaps I should just
> call my
>> bi-racial child "my little nigger" so she will not be hurt by a
> lack of
>> understanding "out in the world"? Good grief.
>>
>> Do you have any idea how patronizing and condescending you sound?
> Oh, I
>> forgot, I'm just to sensitive to word connotations.
>>
>> Julie
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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>
>
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Sarah Carothers

Tia wrote:
<I still think we're far better off trying to change ourselves than trying
to change other people, even our kids or parents. People respond to the
changes we make in ourselves, one way or another. People resist attempts
to make them a better person. And then there's the differing definitions
of what a better person actually is.
Tia
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

...and isn't this what's behind the unschooling thought to begin with? That the motivation has to come from within?
imo, people tend to live up to the expectations of others. If somebody tells you repeatedly that you're a great dancer, by golly, you're going to keep dancing and dancing and before you know it, you *are* a great dancer. OTOH, if somebody repeatedly tells you that you're stupid, well... you start believing it. Same with the words willful or lazy.... talented or bright. IMO it's all in how you present it.
Sarah



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:

>
> I still think we're far better off trying to change ourselves than
trying
> to change other people, even our kids or parents. People respond
to the
> changes we make in ourselves, one way or another. People resist
attempts
> to make them a better person. And then there's the differing
definitions
> of what a better person actually is.
> Tia

I'm not trying to change them. I'm trying (and succeeding) to make
sure that "marketing" is not a part of my family life and honesty
is. That means using terms accurately. If one of us (including me
or my dh) is being lazy, it is perfectly okay for the others to point
it out. We don't just ignore it and hope for the best. And
sometimes hearing it sparks a rejuvenation of sorts. At the very
least it gives one incentive to look within once in a while.
But then, I guess this presumes that the people involved are content
and secure enough with each other not to allow an observation to be
hurtful. My 16 year old can tell me I am being lazy without hurting
my feelings. I can tell her she is sleeping too much (yet again)
without hurting hers.

Bridget

[email protected]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2001 23:24:32 -0000 "Bridget" <rumpleteasermom@...>
writes:
> Gee . . . after having been described as abrasive, rude and a bitch
> and various other names because I have atendency to not sugar coat my
> words, I guess you calling me patronizing and condescending is new if
> nothing else. But do you really want to stoop to personal comments
> like that?
>

Ah, but this is the crux of the matter. She didn't say "You are
patronizing, or condescending, or abrasive, or anything about your
personal character. She said, "Do you have any idea how patronizing and
condescending you sound?" As in, this is how you're coming across to me
at this moment, on this issue. Much different. This is like saying to a
kid, " When you told Susy to 'get over here' it sounded pretty bossy to
me, perhaps that's why she decided to go play by herself." It's different
than saying, "Susy doesn't want to play with you because you are so
bossy."

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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Lynda

Hmmm, I wonder if you would have jumped in with a defense and attempted
explanation if the original poster had said, "Do you know how lazy, willful
and like a dumb little fucker you appear?" Or if the responder had been
anyone else besides Bridget.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <freeform@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Digest Number 1656


>
>
> On Tue, 04 Dec 2001 23:24:32 -0000 "Bridget" <rumpleteasermom@...>
> writes:
> > Gee . . . after having been described as abrasive, rude and a bitch
> > and various other names because I have atendency to not sugar coat my
> > words, I guess you calling me patronizing and condescending is new if
> > nothing else. But do you really want to stoop to personal comments
> > like that?
> >
>
> Ah, but this is the crux of the matter. She didn't say "You are
> patronizing, or condescending, or abrasive, or anything about your
> personal character. She said, "Do you have any idea how patronizing and
> condescending you sound?" As in, this is how you're coming across to me
> at this moment, on this issue. Much different. This is like saying to a
> kid, " When you told Susy to 'get over here' it sounded pretty bossy to
> me, perhaps that's why she decided to go play by herself." It's different
> than saying, "Susy doesn't want to play with you because you are so
> bossy."
>
> Dar
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

rumpleteasermom

You know, I was going to let this go but then I had a thought and it
is nagging away . . .

How is it that telling me I sound condescending and patronizing is
okay and just a comment on my posts but when I said Sandra was coming
across in very negative way that was a personal insult to Sandra?

You really can't have it both ways.

Bridget

>
> Ah, but this is the crux of the matter. She didn't say "You are
> patronizing, or condescending, or abrasive, or anything about your
> personal character. She said, "Do you have any idea how patronizing
and
> condescending you sound?" As in, this is how you're coming across
to me
> at this moment, on this issue. Much different. This is like saying
to a
> kid, " When you told Susy to 'get over here' it sounded pretty
bossy to
> me, perhaps that's why she decided to go play by herself." It's
different
> than saying, "Susy doesn't want to play with you because you are so
> bossy."
>
> Dar
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

Sarah Carothers

Bridget wrote:
<You really can't have it both ways.

Bridget
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
Bridget,
Sandra is no longer here. She started her own list as you already know. There is really no point in dragging up old arguments. We're trying to get a fresh start here and make this list a pleasant place to dissect the issues of unschooling. We can pick apart the issues, disagree with one another but I, for one, would really like to see this ugliness cease. Plenty of people had something to say about labeling and diagnosing kids with reading problems. Nobody stooped to calling me ugly names (thank you <g>) yet everybody got to bring their POV to the table.
Which brings us to this point. You stated your way of dealing with words in your family. Others wrote in in opposition and you rebutted. End of thread *unless* you feel you were misquoted or misunderstood and then, by all means, I'd hope you'd try to clarify.
Please... I need a place where we can toss things out for discussion and debate and I'd imagine others are here for the same reason. If a thread stirs up so much anger, can the parties involved take it off list or just drop it?
.. not trying to be a list-police... just wishing we could all hang out under the same roof in peace
Sarah

----- Original Message -----
From: rumpleteasermom
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:58 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Perceptions WAS Digest Number 1656


You know, I was going to let this go but then I had a thought and it
is nagging away . . .

How is it that telling me I sound condescending and patronizing is
okay and just a comment on my posts but when I said Sandra was coming
across in very negative way that was a personal insult to Sandra?

You really can't have it both ways.

Bridget

>
> Ah, but this is the crux of the matter. She didn't say "You are
> patronizing, or condescending, or abrasive, or anything about your
> personal character. She said, "Do you have any idea how patronizing
and
> condescending you sound?" As in, this is how you're coming across
to me
> at this moment, on this issue. Much different. This is like saying
to a
> kid, " When you told Susy to 'get over here' it sounded pretty
bossy to
> me, perhaps that's why she decided to go play by herself." It's
different
> than saying, "Susy doesn't want to play with you because you are so
> bossy."
>
> Dar
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DB

Ack...guess I have to shield the little one's eyes, too, since I often type with a kiddo on my lap.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Digest Number 1656


Hmmm, I wonder if you would have jumped in with a defense and attempted
explanation if the original poster had said, "Do you know how lazy, willful
and like a dumb little fucker you appear?" Or if the responder had been
anyone else besides Bridget.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <freeform@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Digest Number 1656


>
>
> On Tue, 04 Dec 2001 23:24:32 -0000 "Bridget" <rumpleteasermom@...>
> writes:
> > Gee . . . after having been described as abrasive, rude and a bitch
> > and various other names because I have atendency to not sugar coat my
> > words, I guess you calling me patronizing and condescending is new if
> > nothing else. But do you really want to stoop to personal comments
> > like that?
> >
>
> Ah, but this is the crux of the matter. She didn't say "You are
> patronizing, or condescending, or abrasive, or anything about your
> personal character. She said, "Do you have any idea how patronizing and
> condescending you sound?" As in, this is how you're coming across to me
> at this moment, on this issue. Much different. This is like saying to a
> kid, " When you told Susy to 'get over here' it sounded pretty bossy to
> me, perhaps that's why she decided to go play by herself." It's different
> than saying, "Susy doesn't want to play with you because you are so
> bossy."
>
> Dar
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Leslie

See, it won't take you long to learn whose post's not to bother opening!
----- Original Message -----
From: DB
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Digest Number 1656


Ack...guess I have to shield the little one's eyes, too, since I often type with a kiddo on my lap.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Digest Number 1656


Hmmm, I wonder if you would have jumped in with a defense and attempted
explanation if the original poster had said, "Do you know how lazy, willful
and like a dumb little fucker you appear?" Or if the responder had been
anyone else besides Bridget.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <freeform@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Digest Number 1656


>
>
> On Tue, 04 Dec 2001 23:24:32 -0000 "Bridget" <rumpleteasermom@...>
> writes:
> > Gee . . . after having been described as abrasive, rude and a bitch
> > and various other names because I have atendency to not sugar coat my
> > words, I guess you calling me patronizing and condescending is new if
> > nothing else. But do you really want to stoop to personal comments
> > like that?
> >
>
> Ah, but this is the crux of the matter. She didn't say "You are
> patronizing, or condescending, or abrasive, or anything about your
> personal character. She said, "Do you have any idea how patronizing and
> condescending you sound?" As in, this is how you're coming across to me
> at this moment, on this issue. Much different. This is like saying to a
> kid, " When you told Susy to 'get over here' it sounded pretty bossy to
> me, perhaps that's why she decided to go play by herself." It's different
> than saying, "Susy doesn't want to play with you because you are so
> bossy."
>
> Dar
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Tia Leschke

>
>Sandra is no longer here. She started her own list as you already know.

And the atmosphere is pleasant over there. I'm sticking around here for
now, but it's getting old really fast.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy