Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1640
Joseph Fuerst
As to how she *gets* her kids to do the work, I asked her once. She says the
threat of going back to school is always there.
Karin
Interesting....I would NOT threaten my children with having to go to school.
If our circumstances changed somehow, and I was forced to put them into a
school situation; I wouldn't want them to think it was punishment for
something they'd done. Then again, I try not to use threats with my
children for anything - I don't find it to be a respectful way to treat a
person I love.
Susan....who nevertheless is tempted to threaten the little ones at times!
threat of going back to school is always there.
Karin
Interesting....I would NOT threaten my children with having to go to school.
If our circumstances changed somehow, and I was forced to put them into a
school situation; I wouldn't want them to think it was punishment for
something they'd done. Then again, I try not to use threats with my
children for anything - I don't find it to be a respectful way to treat a
person I love.
Susan....who nevertheless is tempted to threaten the little ones at times!
Joseph Fuerst
Karin:
I know what you mean about avoiding debates. I'm feeling more and more sure
as I go along.....it's generally my way to be gentle, but I'm sometimes so
much so that I fail to get my point across. I'm better at it in writing,
but I really want to be able to challenge people - in a kind way- to look at
things with their children differently.
I recently re-united with an old college pal who just started hs-ing. She
has set up a little 'school room' in her house - I hope she'll outgrow it!
I don't want to be too forward about unschooling and scare her off, yet I
adore her youngsters and hope she'll loosen up as she goes.
My other friend from childhood would be apalled at unschooling, I think.
And what's interesting to me is that I was much more 'academically'
intelligent than she.....I think there's some kind of fear there...
gotta go for now,
Susan, often a 'closet unschooler' among hs groups!
I only have homeschooling friends, no unschoolers yet, except here and
unschooling.com. (thankful for that)
I am still pretty quiet about my unschooling ways, I'm still to new to get
into any debates about it :-)
But I know people who also seem to go way overboard with the school-at-home
thing.
I know what you mean about avoiding debates. I'm feeling more and more sure
as I go along.....it's generally my way to be gentle, but I'm sometimes so
much so that I fail to get my point across. I'm better at it in writing,
but I really want to be able to challenge people - in a kind way- to look at
things with their children differently.
I recently re-united with an old college pal who just started hs-ing. She
has set up a little 'school room' in her house - I hope she'll outgrow it!
I don't want to be too forward about unschooling and scare her off, yet I
adore her youngsters and hope she'll loosen up as she goes.
My other friend from childhood would be apalled at unschooling, I think.
And what's interesting to me is that I was much more 'academically'
intelligent than she.....I think there's some kind of fear there...
gotta go for now,
Susan, often a 'closet unschooler' among hs groups!
I only have homeschooling friends, no unschoolers yet, except here and
unschooling.com. (thankful for that)
I am still pretty quiet about my unschooling ways, I'm still to new to get
into any debates about it :-)
But I know people who also seem to go way overboard with the school-at-home
thing.
Joseph Fuerst
Well articulated, Joce {{applause}} Thanks...I agree, but wasn't able to
pull the words together this well!
When I asked my neighbor what she did differently to "teach" her LD
son...she said nothing, you just go over and over it until they catch on
(her son finally read at age 10) She took him out of school to *teach* him
at home -- looks like they *taught* the desire to read right out of the poor
guy. Funny that her other son reads at a college level (since age 9). She
never had *time* to work with him on reading because she was so focused on
the LD labelled child!
Susan
If we define unschooling as child led learning then we can say that
unschooling won't work for every child. The environment might be lacking.
The parent might not know how to interact with the child, for instance an
adult who was bookish might be less inclined to give her kinesthetic child
the freedom to use his body as much as he needs, not being able to perceive
that as learning. Child led is only a part of the picture.
But if we define unschooling as how children *naturally* learn then we can't
say unschooling won't work because it's the same as saying children can't
learn.
I think one of the stumbling blocks with unschooling and learning
disabilities is that there isn't a large enough community of unschoolers of
LD kids. All the research is oriented towards kids who are expected to learn
what is taught in school, with the goal of hopefully getting them into
school. The research supports that being taught through particular methods
is what various LD kids need.
But does that research apply to helping LD kids learn naturally? Helping
them become themselves rather than products to be fed to colleges or the
workforce?
If we begin with the premise that kids don't need taught then the quest is
to find ways to help kids learn what they want to learn, not learn what we
think they should learn in the time we think they should learn it.
For instance there are ways of helping dyslexic people read. But if those
ways involve coercion, regardless of how authoritative someone is, then
perhaps it's a good idea to look at the goals they are imposing on the
dyslexic.
Joyce
pull the words together this well!
When I asked my neighbor what she did differently to "teach" her LD
son...she said nothing, you just go over and over it until they catch on
(her son finally read at age 10) She took him out of school to *teach* him
at home -- looks like they *taught* the desire to read right out of the poor
guy. Funny that her other son reads at a college level (since age 9). She
never had *time* to work with him on reading because she was so focused on
the LD labelled child!
Susan
> I see what you are saying but are you sure you see what I am saying?Yes, and I think it's the definition of unschooling that's the hang up.
If we define unschooling as child led learning then we can say that
unschooling won't work for every child. The environment might be lacking.
The parent might not know how to interact with the child, for instance an
adult who was bookish might be less inclined to give her kinesthetic child
the freedom to use his body as much as he needs, not being able to perceive
that as learning. Child led is only a part of the picture.
But if we define unschooling as how children *naturally* learn then we can't
say unschooling won't work because it's the same as saying children can't
learn.
I think one of the stumbling blocks with unschooling and learning
disabilities is that there isn't a large enough community of unschoolers of
LD kids. All the research is oriented towards kids who are expected to learn
what is taught in school, with the goal of hopefully getting them into
school. The research supports that being taught through particular methods
is what various LD kids need.
But does that research apply to helping LD kids learn naturally? Helping
them become themselves rather than products to be fed to colleges or the
workforce?
If we begin with the premise that kids don't need taught then the quest is
to find ways to help kids learn what they want to learn, not learn what we
think they should learn in the time we think they should learn it.
For instance there are ways of helping dyslexic people read. But if those
ways involve coercion, regardless of how authoritative someone is, then
perhaps it's a good idea to look at the goals they are imposing on the
dyslexic.
Joyce
Joseph Fuerst
________________________________________________________________________
Susan,
Ya know, I've been thinking so much about this. It's not that I want a name
for dd's problem (if I'm accurate in assuming it *is* a problem) or a
label. I agree with your assessment of what a label can do to a kid.
I'm just frozen in my boots thinking, on the one hand... maybe a
professional in that field could help my dd. On the other hand, maybe that
same professional would rake us over the coals for our unschooling
lifestyle, consider it harmful to my child and............ well it's at this
point that my imagination runs wild :(.
Sarah
____________________________
Sarah: LOL...love your 'frozen in boots' description - I think I know how
you feel! I've debated and wondered whether any outsider (tutor,
'professional', friend) may be able to offer my dd another approach. I
still think I unintentionally pressure the poor girl to learn to read...I'm
working on it! I've discussed it with dd. Lately, I've been able to say
it in a detatched enough way (Ithink) that she sees my input as 'just a
suggestion' that she can take or leave ("you know, dd, if you're interested
in working on reading better, but would rather talk to someones besides me
or your dad, we can find someone.") She declined and I've let it go.
As for wondering what a "professional" would think about unschooloing...that
reminds me of dh and I going to a child psychologist about one of our dd's
earlier this year. She seemed good, but her 'behavior modification'
program seemed a bit too "schoolish". I wondered, too, what would she think
of our education "program"!
Susan
Susan,
Ya know, I've been thinking so much about this. It's not that I want a name
for dd's problem (if I'm accurate in assuming it *is* a problem) or a
label. I agree with your assessment of what a label can do to a kid.
I'm just frozen in my boots thinking, on the one hand... maybe a
professional in that field could help my dd. On the other hand, maybe that
same professional would rake us over the coals for our unschooling
lifestyle, consider it harmful to my child and............ well it's at this
point that my imagination runs wild :(.
Sarah
____________________________
Sarah: LOL...love your 'frozen in boots' description - I think I know how
you feel! I've debated and wondered whether any outsider (tutor,
'professional', friend) may be able to offer my dd another approach. I
still think I unintentionally pressure the poor girl to learn to read...I'm
working on it! I've discussed it with dd. Lately, I've been able to say
it in a detatched enough way (Ithink) that she sees my input as 'just a
suggestion' that she can take or leave ("you know, dd, if you're interested
in working on reading better, but would rather talk to someones besides me
or your dad, we can find someone.") She declined and I've let it go.
As for wondering what a "professional" would think about unschooloing...that
reminds me of dh and I going to a child psychologist about one of our dd's
earlier this year. She seemed good, but her 'behavior modification'
program seemed a bit too "schoolish". I wondered, too, what would she think
of our education "program"!
Susan
Julie Stauffer
<<but if there is a physical problem such as dyslexia>>
Exactly what is the physical problem of dyslexia?
We are told "Oh, he sees letters upside down". If that is always the case,
then why doesn't he see triangles upside down, or music notes upside down.
Probably because there isn't a lot of pressure about triangles or music, but
a lot anxiety rests around letters. And if the problem were because of
seeing letters flipped, then writing everything twice should fix it (Sees
"A" backwards so writes it backwards, then sees backwards "A" backwards <now
back to original position> and writes it correctly) but that doesn't fix the
problem.
Please be very careful of buying into the terminology and pseudo-medical
practices of the educational establishment who get increased revenue based
on the number of "disabled" kids they have.
Julie
Exactly what is the physical problem of dyslexia?
We are told "Oh, he sees letters upside down". If that is always the case,
then why doesn't he see triangles upside down, or music notes upside down.
Probably because there isn't a lot of pressure about triangles or music, but
a lot anxiety rests around letters. And if the problem were because of
seeing letters flipped, then writing everything twice should fix it (Sees
"A" backwards so writes it backwards, then sees backwards "A" backwards <now
back to original position> and writes it correctly) but that doesn't fix the
problem.
Please be very careful of buying into the terminology and pseudo-medical
practices of the educational establishment who get increased revenue based
on the number of "disabled" kids they have.
Julie
Julie Stauffer
<<No in the doctor's case--he had a verified disability>>
Could you explain this further? Learning disability diagnosis is simply a
description of the fact that the person's reading level is quite a bit lower
than their IQ, it doesn't relate to "cause" at all. You seem to be posting
that this disability could not be caused by stress or environmental factors
and I am very interested to know how that was established.
Julie
Could you explain this further? Learning disability diagnosis is simply a
description of the fact that the person's reading level is quite a bit lower
than their IQ, it doesn't relate to "cause" at all. You seem to be posting
that this disability could not be caused by stress or environmental factors
and I am very interested to know how that was established.
Julie
Julie Stauffer
<<Holt addresses LD>>
"Teach Your Own" for one. He basically says that LD could just as easily be
explained as a stress reaction, anxiety if you will, rather than as a
physical problem. I have to say I agree with him.
Just like many people are very invested in there being a separate diagnosis
of Multiple Personality Disorder, but it can be just as easily explained by
hysteria.
A diagnosis doesn't necessarily mean there is any physical problem, it is
just a short hand meant for doctors to communicate with each other. A
diagnosis doesn't have a life of its own.
Julie
"Teach Your Own" for one. He basically says that LD could just as easily be
explained as a stress reaction, anxiety if you will, rather than as a
physical problem. I have to say I agree with him.
Just like many people are very invested in there being a separate diagnosis
of Multiple Personality Disorder, but it can be just as easily explained by
hysteria.
A diagnosis doesn't necessarily mean there is any physical problem, it is
just a short hand meant for doctors to communicate with each other. A
diagnosis doesn't have a life of its own.
Julie
[email protected]
On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:23:32 -0600 "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
writes:
Nope.
Hysteria can't explain 99% of the stuff that goes on with multiple
personality disorder (which is now called Dissociative Identity Disorder,
BTW, and has been for years).
Dar
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writes:
> Just like many people are very invested in there being a separatediagnosis
> of Multiple Personality Disorder, but it can be just as easilyHuh?
> explained by hysteria.
Nope.
Hysteria can't explain 99% of the stuff that goes on with multiple
personality disorder (which is now called Dissociative Identity Disorder,
BTW, and has been for years).
Dar
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Elizabeth Hill
Joseph Fuerst wrote:
student, got top grades, and forgot most everything. (Esp. stuff I studied in
my major for college!)
People who were goofing off in school actually may buy the idea that it's their
own fault they didn't learn anything. They think if they had tried harder and
paid more attention they would know more today. Not true! The system itself
doesn't work well -- at least for me.
I've met a few people in their thirties that seemd to think if they had been
more mature (like a thrity year old!) when they were 14, then they would have
advanced more in their career and had more success and more goodies. And they
are kicking themselves that they were childlike when they were children.
Hmmmm.
Betsy
>Actually, it's kind of freeing to have been a good student. I was a diligent
> My other friend from childhood would be apalled at unschooling, I think.
> And what's interesting to me is that I was much more 'academically'
> intelligent than she.....I think there's some kind of fear there...
student, got top grades, and forgot most everything. (Esp. stuff I studied in
my major for college!)
People who were goofing off in school actually may buy the idea that it's their
own fault they didn't learn anything. They think if they had tried harder and
paid more attention they would know more today. Not true! The system itself
doesn't work well -- at least for me.
I've met a few people in their thirties that seemd to think if they had been
more mature (like a thrity year old!) when they were 14, then they would have
advanced more in their career and had more success and more goodies. And they
are kicking themselves that they were childlike when they were children.
Hmmmm.
Betsy
Karin
I used to threaten. They were empty threats. I would never really send them off to school for not doing their schoolwork. It was just another misguided attempt at homeschooling, and being frustrated.
No more threats here anymore. I agree, it's not a respectful way to treat anyone, especially one's own children.
Karin
No more threats here anymore. I agree, it's not a respectful way to treat anyone, especially one's own children.
Karin
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Fuerst
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1640
As to how she *gets* her kids to do the work, I asked her once. She says the
threat of going back to school is always there.
Karin
Interesting....I would NOT threaten my children with having to go to school.
If our circumstances changed somehow, and I was forced to put them into a
school situation; I wouldn't want them to think it was punishment for
something they'd done. Then again, I try not to use threats with my
children for anything - I don't find it to be a respectful way to treat a
person I love.
Susan....who nevertheless is tempted to threaten the little ones at times!
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Karin
This was exactly me, too, when I was in school. I was a very good student, got almost all A's, some B's, and really learned the *system* of school and how to get through it the way that was expected of me. I also forgot most everything.
OTOH, dh got C's & D's in school. Went on to get a masters in computer science, and remembers much more than I do of schoolish facts.
Where's the reasoning in that?
Karin
OTOH, dh got C's & D's in school. Went on to get a masters in computer science, and remembers much more than I do of schoolish facts.
Where's the reasoning in that?
Karin
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Hill
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1640
Actually, it's kind of freeing to have been a good student. I was a diligent
student, got top grades, and forgot most everything. (Esp. stuff I studied in
my major for college!)
Betsy
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