Re: Holt and LD
Joseph Fuerst
Julie,
Do you know a specific reference/book that Holt addresses LD in?
Susan.....a few digests behind....trying to catch up!!!
<<If she can't read at 11>>
Why? What is so magical about 11? Have you read Holt on Learning
Disabilities? And as someone who spent many years diagnosing LD, I have to
say I agree with him. Here we are on an unschooling board, discussing
forcing a child to see a therapist because they can't read at 11.
Oh Sandra, where art thou?
Julie
Do you know a specific reference/book that Holt addresses LD in?
Susan.....a few digests behind....trying to catch up!!!
<<If she can't read at 11>>
Why? What is so magical about 11? Have you read Holt on Learning
Disabilities? And as someone who spent many years diagnosing LD, I have to
say I agree with him. Here we are on an unschooling board, discussing
forcing a child to see a therapist because they can't read at 11.
Oh Sandra, where art thou?
Julie
Elsa Haas
Im pretty sure theres an entire chapter on LDs in Teach Your Own. Dont
know how available that book is now. Pat Farenga (at Holt Assoc.) told me
recently that hes got a contract to revise the book for a new edition
(because so much of the legal info is way out of date).
John also writes about LDs in Never Too Late, which was his book about
learning to play the cello late in life (around 50?). He describes a
situation in which he was under a lot of stress during a music lesson and
suddenly experienced what was once called word blindness (and later called
dyslexia), only with notes instead of words.
He describes the notes jumping around on the score, and then says something
like, It wasnt just that I couldnt read the notes. It was as if I had
never seen such a thing as a note ever before in my life, and could make no
sense of their purpose or place in the world in any way. (Im very much
paraphrasing here, but thats the spirit of it.)
He then says that he imagines that reading, for a person for whom it is
difficult, must be like that awful sensation, when youre under stress, in
which you keep looking up a phone number again and again in the space of
seconds, unsure youll be able to dial it from memory.
Ive just looked in the index of Learning All the Time and found a couple of
short references to LDs. One reads, in part, Some years ago, at a large
conference of specialists in learning disability, I asked whether anyone had
ever heard of not done, but merely heard of any research linking
so-called perceptual handicaps with stress. In the audience of about 1,100,
two hands were raised. One man told me then, the other told me later, about
research that showed that when students with supposedly severe learning
disabilities were put in a relatively stress-free situation, their
disabilities soon vanished. (No, he doesnt give any citation for the
research, at least not in this passage.)
Years ago, Holt Assoc. published a booklet titled Everyone Is Able. I was
one of the contributors I wrote about how I didnt learn to tell time
until I was 12. I was a straight-A student almost every year, all the way
through school. I just couldnt tell time, and I was so ashamed I went
through all sorts of contortions (described in the booklet) to keep anyone
from finding out.
Its kind of spoiling the punchline to tell you what happened in the end,
but Ill tell you anyway since I dont even know whether the booklet is
still available: I finally figured out, after somehow learning on my own how
to tell time, that the problem must have stemmed from the cardboard clock my
first-grade teacher had used to teach us. Back then, I had told time with
the best of them. Well, guess what? She must have been putting the hour hand
precisely on top of the number, instead of somewhere between two numbers. On
a real clock my problem was how to figure out whether it was 1:20 or 2:20,
for example.
Im just telling you about this because, while I may believe a little more
than John did that there are some people with some microscopic glitch in the
brain that makes learning to read (or whatever) difficult, I agree with him
that there are nowhere near as many real cases of this as the schools would
have us believe. Part of the overdiagnosing has to do with there being more
Federal funding for disabled students. Part of it is the schools
insistence on seeing intellectual endeavor as something that is completely
devoid of emotions, and on rarely looking at the teaching from the point of
view of the students. Stress, bad teaching materials, etc. arent even
looked into as a possibility.
I think John might also have come around to thinking that glitches did
sometimes exist if hed been around for all the studies about victims of
stroke or head injury losing extremely specific abilities, like the use of
verbs or of nouns. (Oliver Sachs book The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A
Hat comes to mind.)
But I still think the place to start in any individual case is with stress,
both because its more likely to be that and because we dont yet know what
to do about the physical glitches.
If theres an 11-year-old whos obviously upset about her lack of reading
ability, and shes coming to her mother every night with a book and getting
even more upset about the fact that, after reading it aloud successfully,
shes turning it over and finding that its way below her grade level,
then (given that there doesnt seem to be an operation or a pill, or even a
particularly effective teaching technique for dyslexics) the focus should
probably be on reducing the level of stress shes feeling. She isnt going
to learn ANYTHING useful in that state.
How to reduce the stress, I dont know, but it does occur to me that there
is one section in the library where none of the books are labelled as to
grade level the adult section. How about telling her youd rather read
aloud to her than listen to her read? Absolutely no stress. She curls up and
looks at the page (or not) as you read, and she picks up, in time, something
more about reading than she would by struggling syllable by syllable through
a book meant for first graders.
I never understood the point of having beginning readers read aloud, anyway.
The non-fluent readers in my school were always the ones who, when asked to
read silently at their desks, could be observed moving their lips. I think
silent reading comes first, and only once its fluent, should the reader
read aloud.
If you already read aloud to your daughter, Sarah, or if shes vehemently
insisting on reading aloud, just disregard this. I do think its sometimes
helpful to bring in someone from outside the family to help, but not if that
will just add to the stress.
How Children Fail is, in a way, entirely about LDs. Look for the part
about how John refrained from putting together words (from letter cards
meant to teach reading) for the kids he was tutoring to read to him.
Instead, he asked them to put together words for HIM to read which
resulted in a lot of words that were hard for him to pronounce (like
zzftkql), and a lot of laughter, and gave the kids complete freedom from
making mistakes.
My brother, at 37, has recently been DELIGHTED to be diagnosed as ADD.
Hah. But thats another story.
Sorry for the long sentences. Dont have time to rework them.
Books by John Holt can be had through the Holt Assoc. website, at
http://www.holtgws.com <http://www.holtgws.com/>
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Fuerst [mailto:fuerst@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
Julie,
Do you know a specific reference/book that Holt addresses LD in?
Susan.....a few digests behind....trying to catch up!!!
<<If she can't read at 11>>
Why? What is so magical about 11? Have you read Holt on Learning
Disabilities? And as someone who spent many years diagnosing LD, I have to
say I agree with him. Here we are on an unschooling board, discussing
forcing a child to see a therapist because they can't read at 11.
Oh Sandra, where art thou?
Julie
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know how available that book is now. Pat Farenga (at Holt Assoc.) told me
recently that hes got a contract to revise the book for a new edition
(because so much of the legal info is way out of date).
John also writes about LDs in Never Too Late, which was his book about
learning to play the cello late in life (around 50?). He describes a
situation in which he was under a lot of stress during a music lesson and
suddenly experienced what was once called word blindness (and later called
dyslexia), only with notes instead of words.
He describes the notes jumping around on the score, and then says something
like, It wasnt just that I couldnt read the notes. It was as if I had
never seen such a thing as a note ever before in my life, and could make no
sense of their purpose or place in the world in any way. (Im very much
paraphrasing here, but thats the spirit of it.)
He then says that he imagines that reading, for a person for whom it is
difficult, must be like that awful sensation, when youre under stress, in
which you keep looking up a phone number again and again in the space of
seconds, unsure youll be able to dial it from memory.
Ive just looked in the index of Learning All the Time and found a couple of
short references to LDs. One reads, in part, Some years ago, at a large
conference of specialists in learning disability, I asked whether anyone had
ever heard of not done, but merely heard of any research linking
so-called perceptual handicaps with stress. In the audience of about 1,100,
two hands were raised. One man told me then, the other told me later, about
research that showed that when students with supposedly severe learning
disabilities were put in a relatively stress-free situation, their
disabilities soon vanished. (No, he doesnt give any citation for the
research, at least not in this passage.)
Years ago, Holt Assoc. published a booklet titled Everyone Is Able. I was
one of the contributors I wrote about how I didnt learn to tell time
until I was 12. I was a straight-A student almost every year, all the way
through school. I just couldnt tell time, and I was so ashamed I went
through all sorts of contortions (described in the booklet) to keep anyone
from finding out.
Its kind of spoiling the punchline to tell you what happened in the end,
but Ill tell you anyway since I dont even know whether the booklet is
still available: I finally figured out, after somehow learning on my own how
to tell time, that the problem must have stemmed from the cardboard clock my
first-grade teacher had used to teach us. Back then, I had told time with
the best of them. Well, guess what? She must have been putting the hour hand
precisely on top of the number, instead of somewhere between two numbers. On
a real clock my problem was how to figure out whether it was 1:20 or 2:20,
for example.
Im just telling you about this because, while I may believe a little more
than John did that there are some people with some microscopic glitch in the
brain that makes learning to read (or whatever) difficult, I agree with him
that there are nowhere near as many real cases of this as the schools would
have us believe. Part of the overdiagnosing has to do with there being more
Federal funding for disabled students. Part of it is the schools
insistence on seeing intellectual endeavor as something that is completely
devoid of emotions, and on rarely looking at the teaching from the point of
view of the students. Stress, bad teaching materials, etc. arent even
looked into as a possibility.
I think John might also have come around to thinking that glitches did
sometimes exist if hed been around for all the studies about victims of
stroke or head injury losing extremely specific abilities, like the use of
verbs or of nouns. (Oliver Sachs book The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A
Hat comes to mind.)
But I still think the place to start in any individual case is with stress,
both because its more likely to be that and because we dont yet know what
to do about the physical glitches.
If theres an 11-year-old whos obviously upset about her lack of reading
ability, and shes coming to her mother every night with a book and getting
even more upset about the fact that, after reading it aloud successfully,
shes turning it over and finding that its way below her grade level,
then (given that there doesnt seem to be an operation or a pill, or even a
particularly effective teaching technique for dyslexics) the focus should
probably be on reducing the level of stress shes feeling. She isnt going
to learn ANYTHING useful in that state.
How to reduce the stress, I dont know, but it does occur to me that there
is one section in the library where none of the books are labelled as to
grade level the adult section. How about telling her youd rather read
aloud to her than listen to her read? Absolutely no stress. She curls up and
looks at the page (or not) as you read, and she picks up, in time, something
more about reading than she would by struggling syllable by syllable through
a book meant for first graders.
I never understood the point of having beginning readers read aloud, anyway.
The non-fluent readers in my school were always the ones who, when asked to
read silently at their desks, could be observed moving their lips. I think
silent reading comes first, and only once its fluent, should the reader
read aloud.
If you already read aloud to your daughter, Sarah, or if shes vehemently
insisting on reading aloud, just disregard this. I do think its sometimes
helpful to bring in someone from outside the family to help, but not if that
will just add to the stress.
How Children Fail is, in a way, entirely about LDs. Look for the part
about how John refrained from putting together words (from letter cards
meant to teach reading) for the kids he was tutoring to read to him.
Instead, he asked them to put together words for HIM to read which
resulted in a lot of words that were hard for him to pronounce (like
zzftkql), and a lot of laughter, and gave the kids complete freedom from
making mistakes.
My brother, at 37, has recently been DELIGHTED to be diagnosed as ADD.
Hah. But thats another story.
Sorry for the long sentences. Dont have time to rework them.
Books by John Holt can be had through the Holt Assoc. website, at
http://www.holtgws.com <http://www.holtgws.com/>
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Fuerst [mailto:fuerst@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
Julie,
Do you know a specific reference/book that Holt addresses LD in?
Susan.....a few digests behind....trying to catch up!!!
<<If she can't read at 11>>
Why? What is so magical about 11? Have you read Holt on Learning
Disabilities? And as someone who spent many years diagnosing LD, I have to
say I agree with him. Here we are on an unschooling board, discussing
forcing a child to see a therapist because they can't read at 11.
Oh Sandra, where art thou?
Julie
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Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joseph Fuerst
Thanks, Elsa, you are amazing! What a thorough and considerate response!!
I *do* think in my dd's case, a lot of her problem pertains to stress. I
believe that, though I never intended it and did it unconsciously, I have
pressured her academically. She is my oldest child....I have grown and
learned immensely, but admit I used to place too much emphasis on the
importance of academics. She spoke early and was considered a brilliant
pre-schooler......big deal! I'm still trying to figure out everything i've
done to stress her out....
Of late, (past year or so), I've been much more able to 'let it go'....put
my faith in her. She is gradually taking small steps in reading. I
continue to 'breathe deeply' and try to simply *be there* for her
questions. She loves books...her favorite things to check out from the
library are books on tape....she can certainly follow complicated plot
lines...and I've decided to just enjoy her 'thinking'.
She recently listened to "A wrinkle In Time"....her critique was not only
aling plot and charater lines, but she actually commented on the narrator's
'voice' abilities!
Susan ....who *loves* The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat" and still
thinks a career in psychoneurobiology would be fun!
I'm pretty sure there's an entire chapter on "LD's" in Teach Your Own. Don't
know how available that book is now. Pat Farenga (at Holt Assoc.) told me
recently that he's got a contract to revise the book for a new edition
(because so much of the legal info is way out of date).
I *do* think in my dd's case, a lot of her problem pertains to stress. I
believe that, though I never intended it and did it unconsciously, I have
pressured her academically. She is my oldest child....I have grown and
learned immensely, but admit I used to place too much emphasis on the
importance of academics. She spoke early and was considered a brilliant
pre-schooler......big deal! I'm still trying to figure out everything i've
done to stress her out....
Of late, (past year or so), I've been much more able to 'let it go'....put
my faith in her. She is gradually taking small steps in reading. I
continue to 'breathe deeply' and try to simply *be there* for her
questions. She loves books...her favorite things to check out from the
library are books on tape....she can certainly follow complicated plot
lines...and I've decided to just enjoy her 'thinking'.
She recently listened to "A wrinkle In Time"....her critique was not only
aling plot and charater lines, but she actually commented on the narrator's
'voice' abilities!
Susan ....who *loves* The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat" and still
thinks a career in psychoneurobiology would be fun!
I'm pretty sure there's an entire chapter on "LD's" in Teach Your Own. Don't
know how available that book is now. Pat Farenga (at Holt Assoc.) told me
recently that he's got a contract to revise the book for a new edition
(because so much of the legal info is way out of date).
Sarah Carothers
Elsa wrote:
<He describes the notes jumping around on the score, and then says something
like, "It wasn't just that I couldn't read the notes. It was as if I had
never seen such a thing as a note ever before in my life, and could make no
sense of their purpose or place in the world in any way." (I'm very much
paraphrasing here, but that's the spirit of it.)
He then says that he imagines that reading, for a person for whom it is
difficult, must be like that awful sensation, when you're under stress, in
which you keep looking up a phone number again and again in the space of
seconds, unsure you'll be able to dial it from memory.
Had her eyes checked and she needed glasses as she has a stigmatism (sp?) so that may have accounted for the distortions. Wonder if John H. wore glasses...
Sarah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<He describes the notes jumping around on the score, and then says something
like, "It wasn't just that I couldn't read the notes. It was as if I had
never seen such a thing as a note ever before in my life, and could make no
sense of their purpose or place in the world in any way." (I'm very much
paraphrasing here, but that's the spirit of it.)
He then says that he imagines that reading, for a person for whom it is
difficult, must be like that awful sensation, when you're under stress, in
which you keep looking up a phone number again and again in the space of
seconds, unsure you'll be able to dial it from memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..My dd has described the words as "melting off the page... they're dripping down".
Had her eyes checked and she needed glasses as she has a stigmatism (sp?) so that may have accounted for the distortions. Wonder if John H. wore glasses...
Sarah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elsa Haas
Sarah,
I never actually met John (he died some months before I started working at
Holt Associates), so though I think I remember having seen photos of him
wearing those typical middle-age reading glasses, I cant be sure.
But the passage in Never Too Late I was referring to makes very clear that
this was a sudden change in his perception of the notes, brought on by
unusual stress (he had arrived late for the music lesson, the teacher was
annoyed, he was already worried about something else to begin with,
whatever). So any speculations about whether he wore glasses or had a
vision problem seem to me slightly beside the point.
Someone else on this list said not long ago that the body and the mind are
one, in the sense that, for example, stress is both an emotional and a
physical phenomenon (you feel stress, stress hormones circulate, muscles
tense, you feel more stressed, etc.) Eyesight is one of those things that
seem to be especially vulnerable to stress.
I got my first pair of glasses at age eleven (though, looking back, I had
probably needed them long before that). At first I wore them only to see the
blackboard or a movie screen, then also for the TV, and eventually at all
times. In my twenties, I tried to get rid of them after reading a book
called Better Vision Without Glasses (or Better Eyesight Im not sure
of the title).
The idea behind the book, as I remember it (I may have some of this mixed up
by now) is that myopia (nearsightedness) is not due to a permanent
congenital defect consisting of an abnormally elongated eyeball (which
causes the image to fall short of the retina), as optometrists would have
you believe, but to an incorrect use of the muscles that support the
eyeball, which can temporarily change its shape.
The book explained that myopia is caused by staring by not taking in the
whole scene through very rapid, fluid movements of the eyes in and out of
the distance while blinking frequently, but instead fixating on a single
point and straining to see it without much blinking at all. There were
exercises that supposedly could help you get rid of your glasses even after
years of using them.
I tried the exercises, but they made my eyes hurt. So I ditched them and
just started to take my glasses off unless I really needed them. (I really
needed them a lot I would take them off and proceed down the sidewalk,
then put them back on to cross it.) After some days or weeks of this (I don
t remember which) I found myself able to read the name of the Metro station
on the wall (this was in Madrid) from inside the train.
Later, I became able to read a street sign from across the street. I was
absolutely amazed. It was inconvenient to be using my glasses so sparingly,
though, so sometime later I gave up on the experiment.
Im explaining all this because I think it means that vision is not
static, and that a vision problem is not necessarily something that just
happens to you for some inexplicable genetically-based reason.
In Never Too Late, John also talks about how, when stress hormones
circulate, peripheral vision becomes limited. This seems to make sense we
may have evolved to focus (literally) on the most urgent problem right in
front of us, and not waste brain cell power worrying about things off to
either side.
You know how, when youre about to be run over by a truck (or whatever) time
freezes and you zero in on some tiny, insignificant detail? Well, if you
feel threatened by the printed page and your field of vision becomes
severely constricted, you might start reading letter-by-letter instead of
making relaxed use of the surrounding text. (The eyes of fluent readers dart
all over the page as they read I know mine do.)
Is this a purely physical problem, to be solved by glasses? Maybe not. Would
an optometrist be able to diagnose a vision problem in your daughter? Maybe
its like the way its hard for doctors to get blood pressure readings that
mean much of anything, because a lot of peoples blood pressures shoot up on
any visit to the doctors office, and because blood pressure varies
according to the time of day, etc.
Hard to test or correct - maybe only treatable through stress reduction.
Biofeedback? Soothing music? Or just not having your daughter participate in
any reading aloud, or in anything else that puts her under stress about her
reading ability?
I mentioned in a previous post the enormous difference between a word game
in which the student is reading aloud words the teacher puts together from
letter cards, and one in which the student puts together the words, be they
pronounceable or not, and the teacher has to try to read them, amid laughter
(zzftlqt, bnxtuvsql).
In the former case, the student is under pressure, whether you keep score,
or give a grade, or call it a game, or not. In the second case, there is
no pressure only the opportunity for the student to make his or her own
discoveries since the teacher has no way of evaluating what the student
knows or is learning at any given point in the game.
I dont know. I do think its significant that your daughter told you she
sees the words melting off the page or dripping down.
Try reading Never Too Late. You could also read the part in George Dennison
s The Lives Of Children where he describes the physical contortions
(squirming, sighing, cringing, etc.) of the twelve-year-old student, Jose,
as he tries to read aloud. (John Holt wrote a review of this book that
emphasizes Joses evident agony I think its in Sharing Treasures, the
collection of his book reviews.)
(P.S.- The word you wanted is astigmatism, all one word. I think that
vision book has something to say about it, too.)
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Carothers [mailto:puddles@...]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
Elsa wrote:
<He describes the notes jumping around on the score, and then says something
like, "It wasn't just that I couldn't read the notes. It was as if I had
never seen such a thing as a note ever before in my life, and could make no
sense of their purpose or place in the world in any way." (I'm very much
paraphrasing here, but that's the spirit of it.)
He then says that he imagines that reading, for a person for whom it is
difficult, must be like that awful sensation, when you're under stress, in
which you keep looking up a phone number again and again in the space of
seconds, unsure you'll be able to dial it from memory.
down".
Had her eyes checked and she needed glasses as she has a stigmatism (sp?) so
that may have accounted for the distortions. Wonder if John H. wore
glasses...
Sarah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I never actually met John (he died some months before I started working at
Holt Associates), so though I think I remember having seen photos of him
wearing those typical middle-age reading glasses, I cant be sure.
But the passage in Never Too Late I was referring to makes very clear that
this was a sudden change in his perception of the notes, brought on by
unusual stress (he had arrived late for the music lesson, the teacher was
annoyed, he was already worried about something else to begin with,
whatever). So any speculations about whether he wore glasses or had a
vision problem seem to me slightly beside the point.
Someone else on this list said not long ago that the body and the mind are
one, in the sense that, for example, stress is both an emotional and a
physical phenomenon (you feel stress, stress hormones circulate, muscles
tense, you feel more stressed, etc.) Eyesight is one of those things that
seem to be especially vulnerable to stress.
I got my first pair of glasses at age eleven (though, looking back, I had
probably needed them long before that). At first I wore them only to see the
blackboard or a movie screen, then also for the TV, and eventually at all
times. In my twenties, I tried to get rid of them after reading a book
called Better Vision Without Glasses (or Better Eyesight Im not sure
of the title).
The idea behind the book, as I remember it (I may have some of this mixed up
by now) is that myopia (nearsightedness) is not due to a permanent
congenital defect consisting of an abnormally elongated eyeball (which
causes the image to fall short of the retina), as optometrists would have
you believe, but to an incorrect use of the muscles that support the
eyeball, which can temporarily change its shape.
The book explained that myopia is caused by staring by not taking in the
whole scene through very rapid, fluid movements of the eyes in and out of
the distance while blinking frequently, but instead fixating on a single
point and straining to see it without much blinking at all. There were
exercises that supposedly could help you get rid of your glasses even after
years of using them.
I tried the exercises, but they made my eyes hurt. So I ditched them and
just started to take my glasses off unless I really needed them. (I really
needed them a lot I would take them off and proceed down the sidewalk,
then put them back on to cross it.) After some days or weeks of this (I don
t remember which) I found myself able to read the name of the Metro station
on the wall (this was in Madrid) from inside the train.
Later, I became able to read a street sign from across the street. I was
absolutely amazed. It was inconvenient to be using my glasses so sparingly,
though, so sometime later I gave up on the experiment.
Im explaining all this because I think it means that vision is not
static, and that a vision problem is not necessarily something that just
happens to you for some inexplicable genetically-based reason.
In Never Too Late, John also talks about how, when stress hormones
circulate, peripheral vision becomes limited. This seems to make sense we
may have evolved to focus (literally) on the most urgent problem right in
front of us, and not waste brain cell power worrying about things off to
either side.
You know how, when youre about to be run over by a truck (or whatever) time
freezes and you zero in on some tiny, insignificant detail? Well, if you
feel threatened by the printed page and your field of vision becomes
severely constricted, you might start reading letter-by-letter instead of
making relaxed use of the surrounding text. (The eyes of fluent readers dart
all over the page as they read I know mine do.)
Is this a purely physical problem, to be solved by glasses? Maybe not. Would
an optometrist be able to diagnose a vision problem in your daughter? Maybe
its like the way its hard for doctors to get blood pressure readings that
mean much of anything, because a lot of peoples blood pressures shoot up on
any visit to the doctors office, and because blood pressure varies
according to the time of day, etc.
Hard to test or correct - maybe only treatable through stress reduction.
Biofeedback? Soothing music? Or just not having your daughter participate in
any reading aloud, or in anything else that puts her under stress about her
reading ability?
I mentioned in a previous post the enormous difference between a word game
in which the student is reading aloud words the teacher puts together from
letter cards, and one in which the student puts together the words, be they
pronounceable or not, and the teacher has to try to read them, amid laughter
(zzftlqt, bnxtuvsql).
In the former case, the student is under pressure, whether you keep score,
or give a grade, or call it a game, or not. In the second case, there is
no pressure only the opportunity for the student to make his or her own
discoveries since the teacher has no way of evaluating what the student
knows or is learning at any given point in the game.
I dont know. I do think its significant that your daughter told you she
sees the words melting off the page or dripping down.
Try reading Never Too Late. You could also read the part in George Dennison
s The Lives Of Children where he describes the physical contortions
(squirming, sighing, cringing, etc.) of the twelve-year-old student, Jose,
as he tries to read aloud. (John Holt wrote a review of this book that
emphasizes Joses evident agony I think its in Sharing Treasures, the
collection of his book reviews.)
(P.S.- The word you wanted is astigmatism, all one word. I think that
vision book has something to say about it, too.)
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Carothers [mailto:puddles@...]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
Elsa wrote:
<He describes the notes jumping around on the score, and then says something
like, "It wasn't just that I couldn't read the notes. It was as if I had
never seen such a thing as a note ever before in my life, and could make no
sense of their purpose or place in the world in any way." (I'm very much
paraphrasing here, but that's the spirit of it.)
He then says that he imagines that reading, for a person for whom it is
difficult, must be like that awful sensation, when you're under stress, in
which you keep looking up a phone number again and again in the space of
seconds, unsure you'll be able to dial it from memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..My dd has described the words as "melting off the page... they're dripping
down".
Had her eyes checked and she needed glasses as she has a stigmatism (sp?) so
that may have accounted for the distortions. Wonder if John H. wore
glasses...
Sarah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/30/2001 7:31:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ElsaHaas@... writes:
through doing NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) something I mentioned a few
weeks ago. So evidently there is much more to it than the average person
realizes.
lovemary
"Remember that every act is an act of self-definition. Every thought
carries the energy of creation. Every word is a declaration of what is true
for you. Look to see what you are doing today. Is this how you choose to
define yourself? Look to see what you are thinking today. Is this what you
wish to create? Look to see what you are saying today. Is this what you
desire to be so? Each moment of your life is a holy moment, a moment of
creation" CWG
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ElsaHaas@... writes:
>I also know of several people who have been able to give up their glasses
through doing NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) something I mentioned a few
weeks ago. So evidently there is much more to it than the average person
realizes.
lovemary
"Remember that every act is an act of self-definition. Every thought
carries the energy of creation. Every word is a declaration of what is true
for you. Look to see what you are doing today. Is this how you choose to
define yourself? Look to see what you are thinking today. Is this what you
wish to create? Look to see what you are saying today. Is this what you
desire to be so? Each moment of your life is a holy moment, a moment of
creation" CWG
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Diane
I loved this book! I never systematically did the exercises in it, but it
verified and restated much of what I had already been doing for myself. Now, I
don't use my glasses at all, even for driving (legally!).
:-) Diane
Elsa Haas wrote:
verified and restated much of what I had already been doing for myself. Now, I
don't use my glasses at all, even for driving (legally!).
:-) Diane
Elsa Haas wrote:
> In my twenties, I tried to get rid of them after reading a book
> called Better Vision Without Glasses (or Better Eyesight Im not sure
> of the title).
>
> The idea behind the book, as I remember it (I may have some of this mixed up
> by now) is that myopia (nearsightedness) is not due to a permanent
> congenital defect consisting of an abnormally elongated eyeball (which
> causes the image to fall short of the retina), as optometrists would have
> you believe, but to an incorrect use of the muscles that support the
> eyeball, which can temporarily change its shape.
>
> The book explained that myopia is caused by staring by not taking in the
> whole scene through very rapid, fluid movements of the eyes in and out of
> the distance while blinking frequently, but instead fixating on a single
> point and straining to see it without much blinking at all. There were
> exercises that supposedly could help you get rid of your glasses even after
> years of using them.
Sarah Carothers
Elsa,
Thanks for the correction 'astigmatism'. I wasn't sure about that word.
I've read Never Too Late but it's been a long time so I'll put it on the list to check out next library trip. The Lives of Children sounds good, too. Have you read Smart Moves by Carla Hannaford? The subtitle is Why Learning Is Not All In Your Head. From the back cover:
"It is seldom that we find something so really original and groundbreaking written about education. Knowledge from the neurosciences, information about how bodily movement, emotional expression, nutrition, and the social and physical environment influence learning, are all brought together in a remarkable synthesis. I have never seen a better guide to creating more effective learning situations in home and school." --Dr. Willis Harman, President, Institute of Noetic Sciences
Sarah
From: Elsa Haas
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for the correction 'astigmatism'. I wasn't sure about that word.
I've read Never Too Late but it's been a long time so I'll put it on the list to check out next library trip. The Lives of Children sounds good, too. Have you read Smart Moves by Carla Hannaford? The subtitle is Why Learning Is Not All In Your Head. From the back cover:
"It is seldom that we find something so really original and groundbreaking written about education. Knowledge from the neurosciences, information about how bodily movement, emotional expression, nutrition, and the social and physical environment influence learning, are all brought together in a remarkable synthesis. I have never seen a better guide to creating more effective learning situations in home and school." --Dr. Willis Harman, President, Institute of Noetic Sciences
Sarah
From: Elsa Haas
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joan
Elsa, you wrote:
Before I read this section of your post, I was thinking about how both my mother and myself experience changes in our vision when under stress. For me, it's as if I'm wearing a hat too low over my eyes, or my forehead is interfering with my vision, but this has always been only observation based on my experience and I've never heard or read anyone else talk about it before.
Elsa, I'm really enjoying your posts (and those of others, too).
Joan
P.S. I've been a lurker here on and off for a couple of years. I seem to be leaving lurker mode. Hello all.
> But the passage in Never Too Late I was referring to makes very clear thatI'm just rereading How Children Fail, and he wrote of his experience in this book, too, in the section entitled Fear and Failure, in the notes for March 2, 1961. He had more to say in the revised edition addition about feeling that he had to "pin the notes down" or they'd move and he wouldn't be able to find them again.
> this was a sudden change in his perception of the notes, brought on by
> unusual stress (he had arrived late for the music lesson, the teacher was
> annoyed, he was already worried about something else to begin with,
> whatever). ...
> In Never Too Late, John also talks about how, when stress hormonesThis is a book I've not yet read and I'd been trying to decide whether or not I should get it for myself for Christmas, so Elsa, thank you for helping me make that decision. Bookstore ahoy! Yahoo!!
> circulate, peripheral vision becomes limited.
Before I read this section of your post, I was thinking about how both my mother and myself experience changes in our vision when under stress. For me, it's as if I'm wearing a hat too low over my eyes, or my forehead is interfering with my vision, but this has always been only observation based on my experience and I've never heard or read anyone else talk about it before.
Elsa, I'm really enjoying your posts (and those of others, too).
Joan
P.S. I've been a lurker here on and off for a couple of years. I seem to be leaving lurker mode. Hello all.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Joan <les.carlson2@s...> wrote:
stress. For me, it's as if I'm wearing a hat too low over my eyes,
or my forehead is interfering with my vision, but this has always
been only observation based on my experience and I've never heard or
read anyone else talk about it before.
Hormones can cause changes in your vision.
Bridget
> Before I read this section of your post, I was thinking about howboth my mother and myself experience changes in our vision when under
stress. For me, it's as if I'm wearing a hat too low over my eyes,
or my forehead is interfering with my vision, but this has always
been only observation based on my experience and I've never heard or
read anyone else talk about it before.
Hormones can cause changes in your vision.
Bridget
Kolleen
>Sarah wrote:This is a great quote about how it all comes together.
>"It is seldom that we find something so really original and groundbreaking
>written about education. Knowledge from the neurosciences, information
>about how bodily movement, emotional expression, nutrition, and the social
>and physical environment influence learning, are all brought together in a
>remarkable synthesis. I have never seen a better guide to creating more
>effective learning situations in home and school." --Dr. Willis Harman,
>President, Institute of Noetic Sciences
I was a member of the Institute about 5 years ago and when I moved
around, I never kept up.
Thanks for the reminder.
Kolleen
Elsa Haas
I didnt write what Im quoted as writing below.
I know next to nothing about NLP. You must have taken my identifying info
(from something I did write about eyesight) and put it together with
something someone else wrote about NLP.
Boy, does this get confusing. I dont even know for sure who posted this.
Was it lovemary or somebody quoting lovemary? Whos CWG?
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: lite2yu@... [mailto:lite2yu@...]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
In a message dated 11/30/2001 7:31:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ElsaHaas@... writes:
through doing NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) something I mentioned a few
weeks ago. So evidently there is much more to it than the average person
realizes.
lovemary
"Remember that every act is an act of self-definition. Every thought
carries the energy of creation. Every word is a declaration of what is true
for you. Look to see what you are doing today. Is this how you choose to
define yourself? Look to see what you are thinking today. Is this what you
wish to create? Look to see what you are saying today. Is this what you
desire to be so? Each moment of your life is a holy moment, a moment of
creation" CWG
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know next to nothing about NLP. You must have taken my identifying info
(from something I did write about eyesight) and put it together with
something someone else wrote about NLP.
Boy, does this get confusing. I dont even know for sure who posted this.
Was it lovemary or somebody quoting lovemary? Whos CWG?
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: lite2yu@... [mailto:lite2yu@...]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
In a message dated 11/30/2001 7:31:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ElsaHaas@... writes:
>I also know of several people who have been able to give up their glasses
through doing NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) something I mentioned a few
weeks ago. So evidently there is much more to it than the average person
realizes.
lovemary
"Remember that every act is an act of self-definition. Every thought
carries the energy of creation. Every word is a declaration of what is true
for you. Look to see what you are doing today. Is this how you choose to
define yourself? Look to see what you are thinking today. Is this what you
wish to create? Look to see what you are saying today. Is this what you
desire to be so? Each moment of your life is a holy moment, a moment of
creation" CWG
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elsa Haas
No, I havent read Smart Moves. Ill check it out when I can. Thanks.
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Carothers [mailto:puddles@...]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
Elsa,
<>
Have you read Smart Moves by Carla Hannaford? The subtitle is Why Learning
Is Not All In Your Head.
<>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Carothers [mailto:puddles@...]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
Elsa,
<>
Have you read Smart Moves by Carla Hannaford? The subtitle is Why Learning
Is Not All In Your Head.
<>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>Sarah, do a search on Irlen's Syndrome. What your daughter is describing
>My dd has described the words as "melting off the page... they're dripping
>down".
>Had her eyes checked and she needed glasses as she has a stigmatism (sp?)
>so that may have accounted for the distortions. Wonder if John H. wore
>glasses...
sounds a lot like it. We had Lars tested for it, and he did have it, but I
guess not severe enough for the cure to make a big difference. It has to
do with the brain having difficulty processing the black and white contrast
in most books (and computer screens). The cure is coloured plastic
overlays in the right colour for that person. If it helps a lot, then
there is further testing to find the correct colour lenses for
glasses. (It's almost never the same colour because of refraction.) Have
a look at the web site. It might be worth looking into further. The
initial testing that we did was $100 Canadian.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Sarah Carothers
YES YES YES! Tia, I thought *nobody* knew about this (although I didn't know it was called Irlen's Syndrome! )Years ago, I read a book called Reading by the Colors and it discussed how the black/white contrast is too strong for the eyes of some people. I asked the eye doc when I took Hannah in but she didn't seem to know much about this. At any rate, I suggested dd get tinted lenses (we got two pairs of glasses due to a promotion) and she choose a pink tint and a blue tint. She wears the pink ones *every* time she reads now... she'll seek them out over the other ones. I asked her if the words were still melting and she said no. I hadn't given this another thought until just this minute but since we got the (tinted) glasses, she has not *once* closed the book and said she needed to "wait a minute for the words to hold still".
(hitting self in head)... AND now that I think about it, she has her computer screen ALL in PINK. Pink Pink Pink Pink.
Geesh... WHY didn't I REALIZE this?!!!!!!!! How can I read so many darn books yet not apply what I've learned/ read to my own family?! Embarrassed....
Sarah
(hitting self in head)... AND now that I think about it, she has her computer screen ALL in PINK. Pink Pink Pink Pink.
Geesh... WHY didn't I REALIZE this?!!!!!!!! How can I read so many darn books yet not apply what I've learned/ read to my own family?! Embarrassed....
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
>
>My dd has described the words as "melting off the page... they're dripping
>down".
>Had her eyes checked and she needed glasses as she has a stigmatism (sp?)
>so that may have accounted for the distortions. Wonder if John H. wore
>glasses...
Sarah, do a search on Irlen's Syndrome. What your daughter is describing
sounds a lot like it. We had Lars tested for it, and he did have it, but I
guess not severe enough for the cure to make a big difference. It has to
do with the brain having difficulty processing the black and white contrast
in most books (and computer screens). The cure is coloured plastic
overlays in the right colour for that person. If it helps a lot, then
there is further testing to find the correct colour lenses for
glasses. (It's almost never the same colour because of refraction.) Have
a look at the web site. It might be worth looking into further. The
initial testing that we did was $100 Canadian.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>YES YES YES! Tia, I thought *nobody* knew about this (although I didn'tWell that's wonderful news. I'm glad it helped your daughter.
>know it was called Irlen's Syndrome! )Years ago, I read a book called
>Reading by the Colors and it discussed how the black/white contrast is too
>strong for the eyes of some people. I asked the eye doc when I took Hannah
>in but she didn't seem to know much about this. At any rate, I suggested
>dd get tinted lenses (we got two pairs of glasses due to a promotion) and
>she choose a pink tint and a blue tint. She wears the pink ones *every*
>time she reads now... she'll seek them out over the other ones. I asked
>her if the words were still melting and she said no. I hadn't given this
>another thought until just this minute but since we got the (tinted)
>glasses, she has not *once* closed the book and said she needed to "wait a
>minute for the words to hold still".
>(hitting self in head)... AND now that I think about it, she has herI think there are probably a lot of us out here that have the same
>computer screen ALL in PINK. Pink Pink Pink Pink.
>Geesh... WHY didn't I REALIZE this?!!!!!!!! How can I read so many darn
>books yet not apply what I've learned/ read to my own family?! Embarrassed....
problem. I'm an information junkie, but I have a heck of a time remember
that info when I need it, or finding it again.l
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Lynda
Mommy brain?? Old age, maybe <<<bewg>>>
Lynda
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Carothers <puddles@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
> YES YES YES! Tia, I thought *nobody* knew about this (although I didn't
know it was called Irlen's Syndrome! )Years ago, I read a book called
Reading by the Colors and it discussed how the black/white contrast is too
strong for the eyes of some people. I asked the eye doc when I took Hannah
in but she didn't seem to know much about this. At any rate, I suggested dd
get tinted lenses (we got two pairs of glasses due to a promotion) and she
choose a pink tint and a blue tint. She wears the pink ones *every* time she
reads now... she'll seek them out over the other ones. I asked her if the
words were still melting and she said no. I hadn't given this another
thought until just this minute but since we got the (tinted) glasses, she
has not *once* closed the book and said she needed to "wait a minute for the
words to hold still".
> (hitting self in head)... AND now that I think about it, she has her
computer screen ALL in PINK. Pink Pink Pink Pink.
> Geesh... WHY didn't I REALIZE this?!!!!!!!! How can I read so many darn
books yet not apply what I've learned/ read to my own family?!
Embarrassed....
> Sarah
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tia Leschke
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 11:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
>
>
>
> >
> >My dd has described the words as "melting off the page... they're
dripping
> >down".
> >Had her eyes checked and she needed glasses as she has a stigmatism
(sp?)
> >so that may have accounted for the distortions. Wonder if John H. wore
> >glasses...
>
> Sarah, do a search on Irlen's Syndrome. What your daughter is
describing
> sounds a lot like it. We had Lars tested for it, and he did have it,
but I
> guess not severe enough for the cure to make a big difference. It has
to
> do with the brain having difficulty processing the black and white
contrast
> in most books (and computer screens). The cure is coloured plastic
> overlays in the right colour for that person. If it helps a lot, then
> there is further testing to find the correct colour lenses for
> glasses. (It's almost never the same colour because of refraction.)
Have
> a look at the web site. It might be worth looking into further. The
> initial testing that we did was $100 Canadian.
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Sarah Carothers
I questioned my lack of brain power and Lynda responded: <?? Old age, maybe <<<bewg>>>
Lynda
Sarah (I must be special <G>)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
>Welll, missy, YOU ARE OLDER than I am <bwgggg> :-)! Why hasn't it happened to YOU???? huh???
Sarah (I must be special <G>)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
At 11:13 PM 02/12/01 -0800, you wrote:
age? Yes. Most people I've talked to say that starts in the 40's some
time, so it's had some practise here. And then there's the fibro-fog that
goes with fibromyalgia......sigh.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
>Mommy brain?? Old age, maybe <<<bewg>>>With my youngest 14, it's probably not mommy brain any more. Old
age? Yes. Most people I've talked to say that starts in the 40's some
time, so it's had some practise here. And then there's the fibro-fog that
goes with fibromyalgia......sigh.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Tia Leschke
At 10:30 AM 03/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
general age bracket.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
>I questioned my lack of brain power and Lynda responded: <?? Old age,I think it was me she was "picking on". <g> She and I are in the same
>maybe <<<bewg>>>
general age bracket.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Lynda
Hey, Sarah's up there too <g> And this time I was picking on her but I
don't want you to feel left out, so feel equally picked on <g>
Lynda, always willing to spred the good humored warm fuzzies around %-}
don't want you to feel left out, so feel equally picked on <g>
Lynda, always willing to spred the good humored warm fuzzies around %-}
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
> At 10:30 AM 03/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >I questioned my lack of brain power and Lynda responded: <?? Old age,
> >maybe <<<bewg>>>
>
> I think it was me she was "picking on". <g> She and I are in the same
> general age bracket.
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
****************************************************************************
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> It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. -
Janice
> Levy
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Sarah Carothers
Tia,
I'd be interested in talking with you about the fibro sometime offlist. We suspected oldest dd had it but now I'm not so sure. Anyway, it's a hard thing to live with under any circumstances and I feel for ya.
Sarah
I'd be interested in talking with you about the fibro sometime offlist. We suspected oldest dd had it but now I'm not so sure. Anyway, it's a hard thing to live with under any circumstances and I feel for ya.
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
At 11:13 PM 02/12/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Mommy brain?? Old age, maybe <<<bewg>>>
With my youngest 14, it's probably not mommy brain any more. Old
age? Yes. Most people I've talked to say that starts in the 40's some
time, so it's had some practise here. And then there's the fibro-fog that
goes with fibromyalgia......sigh.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
Tia,
Slide your rocking chair over... I'm up there on the number scale, too. :-)
Ah<g> Lynda's humor... keeps me on my toes ;-). I like that!
Sarah
Slide your rocking chair over... I'm up there on the number scale, too. :-)
Ah<g> Lynda's humor... keeps me on my toes ;-). I like that!
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holt and LD
At 10:30 AM 03/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
>I questioned my lack of brain power and Lynda responded: <?? Old age,
>maybe <<<bewg>>>
I think it was me she was "picking on". <g> She and I are in the same
general age bracket.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
At 11:01 AM 03/12/01 -0800, you wrote:
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
>Hey, Sarah's up there too <g> And this time I was picking on her but IThanks Lynda. You made my day. <g>
>don't want you to feel left out, so feel equally picked on <g>
>
>Lynda, always willing to spred the good humored warm fuzzies around %-}
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Tia Leschke
At 02:40 PM 03/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
28, but my body tends to argue with that. In fact my body has been telling
me lately that I'm older than my chronological age of 53....sigh.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
>Tia,Yup! So where *are* we all on that age scale. My spirit says I'm still
>Slide your rocking chair over... I'm up there on the number scale, too. :-)
>Ah<g> Lynda's humor... keeps me on my toes ;-). I like that!
28, but my body tends to argue with that. In fact my body has been telling
me lately that I'm older than my chronological age of 53....sigh.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
meghan anderson
<<<<<Well, if you feel threatened by the printed page
and your field of vision becomes severely constricted,
you might start reading letter-by-letter instead of
making relaxed use of the surrounding text.
Elsa Haas>>>>>
LOL!!! I know this sentence is taken out of context,
but this problem seems to exist on many email lists!!
<vbwg>
Meghan :-)
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and your field of vision becomes severely constricted,
you might start reading letter-by-letter instead of
making relaxed use of the surrounding text.
Elsa Haas>>>>>
LOL!!! I know this sentence is taken out of context,
but this problem seems to exist on many email lists!!
<vbwg>
Meghan :-)
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Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com